The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Zawed ( talk) via MilHistBot ( talk) 09:20, 2 April 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Operation Totem
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Operation Totem ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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Second in the series on British nuclear testing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:33, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: G'day, Hawkeye, nice work as always. I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert ( talk) 12:12, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- The British government expected that the United States would continue to share nuclear technology--> "Post war, the British government expected that the United States would continue to share nuclear technology..."?
Added "after the war"
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- acceptable limit on the amount --> "acceptable limit of the amount"?
- Corrected.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- did not have anything like the capacity --> "did not have
anything likethe capacity"? - This was potentially a problem since plutonium-240 is prone to spontaneous fission, which would both present a criticality accident risk --> "Since plutonium-240 is prone to spontaneous fission, this presented both a criticality accident risk..."?
- Reworded.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- suggestion changing the caption of the map to "Location of Emu Field within Australia" or something similar
- A search for an alternative site --> "The search for an alternative site"?
- Churchill's scientific advisor, Lord Cherwell handed Menzies: paired comma after "Cherwell"?
- Britain picking up the tab for the tests --> "Britain paying for the tests"?
- the delivery method (tower) is mentioned in the table and the infobox, but unless I missed it doesn't seem to be in the body
- It is covered in the source for the table, but added "Both Totem bombs were exploded on towers" with another source to the article,
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- the following terms are overlinked: Woomera and Manhatten Project
- Unlinked.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- in the References: Arnold, Gowing and McClelland are probably overlinked
- Unlinked.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- sources: books all appear to be WP:RS based on authors and or publishers (no action required)
- the Unique History weblink appears to have been usurped; is there an archived version?
- Yes there is. Added.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- websites quoted seem ok to me; Sublette's Nuclear Weapon Archive appears to have been cited by reliable sources: [1]
- suggest adding alt text: [2]
- I spent several years looking at the Atomic Tank out my office window without knowing its history until reading this article, kudos
- Added my support now. Regards, AustralianRupert ( talk) 06:41, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz
Hi Hawkeye, only a few questions/suggestions...
- Ibox caption on obelisk "Totem One" - all other mentions are Totem 1
- Changed to "Totem 1"
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- A natural claypan known - wlink
claypan
- I did not know we had an article on that. Linked.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- only 500 long tons (510 t) of the 3,000 long tons (3,000 t) of - I don't understand why 500 shows a conversion differential but 3,000 doesn't.
- One is rounding to the nearest hundred, and one to the nearest thousand.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- of the test field on a lake bed. - 'dry' lake bed?
- The alternative didm't occur to me. Changed.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- (7:00 local time) x2 - 07:00?
- Yes, per
MOS:TIME.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- that "Aboriginal people experienced radioactive fallout from Totem 1 in the form of a black mist or cloud at or near Wallatina. This may have made some people temporarily ill. The Royal Commission does not have sufficient evidence to say whether or not it caused other illnesses or injuries".[42] - move full stop inside quote?
- local time) on 27 October.[47][46] - ref order
- Swapped.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- flown back to their home states for Christmas - sounds temporary, 'in time for Christmas'?
- Summary table - "United Kingdom's Totem series tests and detonations" - remove detonations as the Kitten tests not in table?
- Summary table - wlink ACST to Australian Central Standard Time?
- Summary table - Totem 2 | 26 October - 27 October
- Not sure what you're asking for here.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- date should be 27?
- Not sure what you're asking for here.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- The table is correct. Corrected the text.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- Summary table - kilotonnne v kiloton - same thing?
- Yes they are. Changed to "tonnes" for consistency.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Regards, JennyOz ( talk) 05:43, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Dates and times
- Lede opening sentence - remove "15" ie change to 'South Australia in October 1953'
- At Totem 1 "the test was carried out at 21:30 UTC (07:00 local time) on 14 October" - change to (07:00 on 15 October local time), ie as you formatted for Totem 2.
Sorry but I think the dates are still a bit confusing. There is a mix of theirs and ours? For example, "MacDougall had been appointed the Native Patrol Officer at Woomera on 4 November 1947" and "When he was given the assignment on 6 January 1953" are presumably Aust'n dates but does Arnold use Aust or Eng dates in "Kitten tests carried out at the Emu Field site on 26 and 30 September, and 6 October."? Maybe add UTC where relevant?
- Arnold uses Australian dates. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:30, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
As for the actual two Totem tests, Hurricane's is not so confusing. It uses 3 October in lede / 2 Oct in infobox but with UTC added. Then times and dates are explained in full in Operation "The bomb was successfully detonated at 07:59:24 on 3 October 1952 local time, which was 23:59:24 on 2 October 1952 UTC, 00:59:24 on 3 October in London, and 07:59:24 on 3 October in Perth." (The London time is British Summer Time?). In its Summary table you have only one column for date and time and have included the Aust'n date. So can I humbly suggest...
- add UTC to infobox
- Left as it is, changed to give local time precedence everywhere Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- in Summary table, add the Aust dates (15 and 27) to the Local time zone column? (or swap to one column with all 4 dates per Hurricane format)
Other
- McClelland's Royal Commission reports - I can't access the PDFs
- Restored from archive.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- obelisk image typo in alt "permanent occipation"
- Corrected.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)T
Thanks for your patience, JennyOz ( talk) 17:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- Fabulous, adding support, regards JennyOz ( talk) 04:58, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Comments by CPA-5
- Windscale Pile consumed £340,000 a year worth of electricity to run its blowers Which pound and link it?
- GBP. Added.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- flat clay and sandstone expanse in the Great Victoria Desert 480 km north west of Woomera, South Australia No miles? And it should be fliped because Australia didn't use metric units at the time.
- MOS:UNITS: the primary units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- In August 1952, Sir William Penney, the Chief Superintendent Armament Research (CSAR) at the British Ministry of Supply Remove 1952.
- removed.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- adviser vs advisor
- Standardised.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
I will continue later on. Cheers. CPA-5 ( talk) 10:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC) Update: I don't really have the time to continue this. 'Cause of our lockdown, school and real life issues I won't be that much online for a week or longer. :/ Cheers. CPA-5 ( talk) 22:36, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- No worries. Facing a lockdown here as well. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
CommentsSupport by PM
I reviewed this at GAN eighteen months ago, so not a lot came up when I read through it again. I have a few comments:
- suggest "In addition to the two main tests, there was a series of five subcritical tests, called "Kittens" by the British.", and delete the later mention
- non-Aboriginal link Aboriginal Australians, and delink later
- should 7 Independent Field Squadron and 17 Construction Squadron have ordinals? I've never seen them written without, although they are commonly dropped when spoken
- I think so. Ordinalised.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- suggest using "Kittens" when the series is first mentioned, then dropping the quote marks thereafter
- "to investigate the performance of neutron initiators, which the British called Kittens" did the British call neutron initiators Kittens, or the test series Kittens?
- No, the tests were called Kittens. Re-worded.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- "Both Totem bombs were exploded on towers." but we are only talking about Totem 1 here. Suggest "The bomb was exploded on a tower", and in the Totem 2 section "the bomb was also exploded on a tower"
- "The yield was higher than expected" what was the yield expected to be?
- suggest "Penney estimated the actual yield at 10 to 18 kilotonnes of TNT"
- Commonwealth peace officers→Commonwealth Peace Officers
- Capitalised.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- suggest "However it was not ready for the next trial, Operation Mosaic, which was held back at the Montebello Islands in May 1956 and consisted of a pair of tests as part of the development of thermonuclear weapons."
Done It would be nice if we could get someone with a camera out to the Dingo claypan.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
That's all I could find. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 04:47, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for that.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- No worries Hawkeye. I think you need to hit save? Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 06:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Done Heh.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi Nikkimaria, would you mind doing an image review of this one please? Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 21:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Totem_1_test.jpg: source identifies this as a press photo rather than Crown copyright. Nikkimaria ( talk) 02:58, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's both. A press photo is one released to the media for its use, but simply allowing the use of an image does not affect copyright. The image was indeed owned by the crown, and hence is now in the public domain. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:01, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Zawed ( talk) via MilHistBot ( talk) 09:20, 2 April 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Operation Totem
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
Operation Totem ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
| Toolbox |
|---|
Second in the series on British nuclear testing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:33, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: G'day, Hawkeye, nice work as always. I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert ( talk) 12:12, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- The British government expected that the United States would continue to share nuclear technology--> "Post war, the British government expected that the United States would continue to share nuclear technology..."?
- Added "after the war"
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- acceptable limit on the amount --> "acceptable limit of the amount"?
- Corrected.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- did not have anything like the capacity --> "did not have
anything likethe capacity"? - This was potentially a problem since plutonium-240 is prone to spontaneous fission, which would both present a criticality accident risk --> "Since plutonium-240 is prone to spontaneous fission, this presented both a criticality accident risk..."?
- Reworded.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- suggestion changing the caption of the map to "Location of Emu Field within Australia" or something similar
- A search for an alternative site --> "The search for an alternative site"?
- Churchill's scientific advisor, Lord Cherwell handed Menzies: paired comma after "Cherwell"?
- Britain picking up the tab for the tests --> "Britain paying for the tests"?
- the delivery method (tower) is mentioned in the table and the infobox, but unless I missed it doesn't seem to be in the body
- It is covered in the source for the table, but added "Both Totem bombs were exploded on towers" with another source to the article,
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- the following terms are overlinked: Woomera and Manhatten Project
- Unlinked.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- in the References: Arnold, Gowing and McClelland are probably overlinked
- Unlinked.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- sources: books all appear to be WP:RS based on authors and or publishers (no action required)
- the Unique History weblink appears to have been usurped; is there an archived version?
- Yes there is. Added.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- websites quoted seem ok to me; Sublette's Nuclear Weapon Archive appears to have been cited by reliable sources: [1]
- suggest adding alt text: [2]
- I spent several years looking at the Atomic Tank out my office window without knowing its history until reading this article, kudos
- Added my support now. Regards, AustralianRupert ( talk) 06:41, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz
Hi Hawkeye, only a few questions/suggestions...
- Ibox caption on obelisk "Totem One" - all other mentions are Totem 1
- Changed to "Totem 1"
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- A natural claypan known - wlink
claypan
- I did not know we had an article on that. Linked.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- only 500 long tons (510 t) of the 3,000 long tons (3,000 t) of - I don't understand why 500 shows a conversion differential but 3,000 doesn't.
- One is rounding to the nearest hundred, and one to the nearest thousand.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- of the test field on a lake bed. - 'dry' lake bed?
- The alternative didm't occur to me. Changed.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- (7:00 local time) x2 - 07:00?
- Yes, per
MOS:TIME.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- that "Aboriginal people experienced radioactive fallout from Totem 1 in the form of a black mist or cloud at or near Wallatina. This may have made some people temporarily ill. The Royal Commission does not have sufficient evidence to say whether or not it caused other illnesses or injuries".[42] - move full stop inside quote?
- local time) on 27 October.[47][46] - ref order
- Swapped.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- flown back to their home states for Christmas - sounds temporary, 'in time for Christmas'?
- Summary table - "United Kingdom's Totem series tests and detonations" - remove detonations as the Kitten tests not in table?
- Summary table - wlink ACST to Australian Central Standard Time?
- Summary table - Totem 2 | 26 October - 27 October
- Not sure what you're asking for here.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- date should be 27?
- Not sure what you're asking for here.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- The table is correct. Corrected the text.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- Summary table - kilotonnne v kiloton - same thing?
- Yes they are. Changed to "tonnes" for consistency.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
Regards, JennyOz ( talk) 05:43, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Dates and times
- Lede opening sentence - remove "15" ie change to 'South Australia in October 1953'
- At Totem 1 "the test was carried out at 21:30 UTC (07:00 local time) on 14 October" - change to (07:00 on 15 October local time), ie as you formatted for Totem 2.
Sorry but I think the dates are still a bit confusing. There is a mix of theirs and ours? For example, "MacDougall had been appointed the Native Patrol Officer at Woomera on 4 November 1947" and "When he was given the assignment on 6 January 1953" are presumably Aust'n dates but does Arnold use Aust or Eng dates in "Kitten tests carried out at the Emu Field site on 26 and 30 September, and 6 October."? Maybe add UTC where relevant?
- Arnold uses Australian dates. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:30, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
As for the actual two Totem tests, Hurricane's is not so confusing. It uses 3 October in lede / 2 Oct in infobox but with UTC added. Then times and dates are explained in full in Operation "The bomb was successfully detonated at 07:59:24 on 3 October 1952 local time, which was 23:59:24 on 2 October 1952 UTC, 00:59:24 on 3 October in London, and 07:59:24 on 3 October in Perth." (The London time is British Summer Time?). In its Summary table you have only one column for date and time and have included the Aust'n date. So can I humbly suggest...
- add UTC to infobox
- Left as it is, changed to give local time precedence everywhere Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- in Summary table, add the Aust dates (15 and 27) to the Local time zone column? (or swap to one column with all 4 dates per Hurricane format)
Other
- McClelland's Royal Commission reports - I can't access the PDFs
- Restored from archive.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- obelisk image typo in alt "permanent occipation"
- Corrected.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
19:29, 2 March 2020 (UTC)T
Thanks for your patience, JennyOz ( talk) 17:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- Fabulous, adding support, regards JennyOz ( talk) 04:58, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Comments by CPA-5
- Windscale Pile consumed £340,000 a year worth of electricity to run its blowers Which pound and link it?
- GBP. Added.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- flat clay and sandstone expanse in the Great Victoria Desert 480 km north west of Woomera, South Australia No miles? And it should be fliped because Australia didn't use metric units at the time.
- MOS:UNITS: the primary units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- In August 1952, Sir William Penney, the Chief Superintendent Armament Research (CSAR) at the British Ministry of Supply Remove 1952.
- removed.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- adviser vs advisor
- Standardised.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
11:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
I will continue later on. Cheers. CPA-5 ( talk) 10:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC) Update: I don't really have the time to continue this. 'Cause of our lockdown, school and real life issues I won't be that much online for a week or longer. :/ Cheers. CPA-5 ( talk) 22:36, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- No worries. Facing a lockdown here as well. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
CommentsSupport by PM
I reviewed this at GAN eighteen months ago, so not a lot came up when I read through it again. I have a few comments:
- suggest "In addition to the two main tests, there was a series of five subcritical tests, called "Kittens" by the British.", and delete the later mention
- non-Aboriginal link Aboriginal Australians, and delink later
- should 7 Independent Field Squadron and 17 Construction Squadron have ordinals? I've never seen them written without, although they are commonly dropped when spoken
- I think so. Ordinalised.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- suggest using "Kittens" when the series is first mentioned, then dropping the quote marks thereafter
- "to investigate the performance of neutron initiators, which the British called Kittens" did the British call neutron initiators Kittens, or the test series Kittens?
- No, the tests were called Kittens. Re-worded.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- "Both Totem bombs were exploded on towers." but we are only talking about Totem 1 here. Suggest "The bomb was exploded on a tower", and in the Totem 2 section "the bomb was also exploded on a tower"
- "The yield was higher than expected" what was the yield expected to be?
- suggest "Penney estimated the actual yield at 10 to 18 kilotonnes of TNT"
- Commonwealth peace officers→Commonwealth Peace Officers
- Capitalised.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- suggest "However it was not ready for the next trial, Operation Mosaic, which was held back at the Montebello Islands in May 1956 and consisted of a pair of tests as part of the development of thermonuclear weapons."
- Done It would be nice if we could get someone with a camera out to the Dingo claypan.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
That's all I could find. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 04:47, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for that.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
06:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- No worries Hawkeye. I think you need to hit save? Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 06:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Done Heh.
Hawkeye7
(discuss)
08:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi Nikkimaria, would you mind doing an image review of this one please? Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 21:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Totem_1_test.jpg: source identifies this as a press photo rather than Crown copyright. Nikkimaria ( talk) 02:58, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's both. A press photo is one released to the media for its use, but simply allowing the use of an image does not affect copyright. The image was indeed owned by the crown, and hence is now in the public domain. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:01, 26 March 2020 (UTC)