The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is the second part of the treatment of American logistics in the Siegfried Line campaign. It chronicles a series of avoidable problems.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Support Comments from Iazyges
Completely forgot I had taken this up, apologies. I have made some edits, feel free to reverse them.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Lede
developed from a reluctance to accept new, efficient, field-tested items presumably they weren't reluctant to accept better items so much as reluctant to accept new items which were actually better, perhaps developed from a reluctance to accept new items, even when field-tested and efficient,
Y Changed to "reluctance to accept new items".
Background
Operation Cobra, which commenced on 25 July, effected a turnaround in the operational situation by achieving a breakout from the Normandy lodgment area for a layman reader it may not be clear who is breaking out, perhaps Operation Cobra, which the Allies commenced on 25 July, effected a turnaround in the operational situation by achieving a breakout from the Normandy lodgment area
Railways could not be repaired and pipelines constructed quickly enough I believe this and should be an or, or else Railways could not be repaired and pipelines were not constructed quickly enough
Y Changed to "Railways could not be repaired and pipelines could not be constructed quickly enough." but not sure what the basis for your belief is.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Development
Littlejohn did not like the M1943 jacket at all. suggest Littlejohn did not approve of the M1943 jacket.
Y Deleted "at all". Don't want to say "approve" as this has a different meaning.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Footwear
but it seems that the next generation was bigger suggest changing bigger to larger
Y Changed as suggested. Aside: another problem that recurred in the 1960s and 1990s.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Workarounds
The armies worked around the shortages in several ways. The main one was ammunition rationing. The American command setup was an obstacle here not a big fan of these sentences, perhaps: Although the American command setup was an obstacle, the armies worked around the shortages in several ways, especially through ammunition rationing.
it gave the 12th Army Group a much better picture of what was going on. suggest changing what was going on to the situation
Y "Situation" is another technical term, referring to operations. Changed to "a better picture of the stockpile".
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Production
$2,391 million in 2019 suggest $2.391 billion in 2019
the UK that had been acquired under Lend-Lease suggest the UK that had been acquired under the Lend-Lease policy
Lend-Lease was a law, not a policy. It is usually referred to this way. See the
Lend-Lease article.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
That is all of my suggestions, apologies again for taking so long.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
No worries. Thanks for the review. You're not the last I'm afraid.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Source review/Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: G'day, Hawkeye, nice work as usual. Sorry, I don't have time for a full review at the moment, so I have a few minor points, including a source review:
AustralianRupert (
talk) 12:34, 10 October 2021 (UTC)reply
ext links all work (no action required)
all sources appear to be reliable based on authors or publishers (no action required)
spot checked citations 78 and 107 - 78 seems GTG; I couldn't see the date of 25 December mentioned on 107, though. Did I miss it in the source?
all information appears to be referenced (no action required)
in the lead, "Northwestern Europe" is overlinked
cold injury is overlinked in the Medical section
"In 1944–45" --> "In 1944–1945"
"with the 75mm gun M2–M6" --> non breaking space?
75 mm gun is overlinked in the Tanks section
Siegfried Line is overlinked in the Liquid fuels section
G'day, thanks, I will try to take a better look when I get back to a place with better internet (maybe in a few days, hopefully). In the meantime, a couple of the changes look a bit strange to me -- do Americans really use "improvize" and "supervize"? I could be wrong (I am more times than I would like), but that does not look correct to me. Can you please check? Regards,
AustralianRupert (
talk) 14:15, 16 October 2021 (UTC)reply
They only spell the suffix -ize in words that came to English through Latin -izare. Corrected.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:33, 16 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Didn't realize the article was meant to be American English (although that does make sense), I've had another look through the article and don't see anything that stands out as non-American, except the usage of "Smart" appearance which I don't think really shares meaning to the average American, who might consider the used meaning as somewhere near the fourth possible meaning if they are even aware of it. Perhaps "a well kept" would work better.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 05:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
To be more precise, it is written in American military. "smart" is one of those words the US Army is fond of.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 05:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
"Eisenhower decided to continue the pursuit of the retreating German forces beyond the Seine" --> potentially clarify what the other option was? I assume pausing and stablising LOC?
sometimes you use the definite article and sometimes you don't, for instance "against Third Army's rail transport" v "contrast, the First Army had turned" --> suggest consistency
"A major problem here was insufficient training in their use." --> "A major contributing factor was insufficient training in their use"?
Y I like that one. Changed as suggested.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 05:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
not quite sure about the Medical section being completely related to the topic of "supply" as such. When I saw the section header, I assumed it would be about the provision of Class VIII including blood products, rather than discussing casualty numbers, causes and backloading (arguablly not really a supply function, IMO). Potentially the article title could be "American supply and medical support in the Siegfried Line campaign"?
[...] for which there were only fourteen berths. The situation hardly improved in October, at the end of which there were 80 ships and only eighteen berths. Every number greater than 10 should be rendered with a numeral.
Y Not quite: Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words (
MOS:NUMBER); but changed as suggested.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)reply
By December, the backlog had not been reduced, but had grown [...] The middle clause here could be removed with no loss in quality to the prose.
Seventh Army, which was supported by the Southern Line of Communications (SOLOC) instead of COMZ, and therefore drew its supplies from NATOUSA, received winter clothing by air on 26 September. I'm confused by the second and third clauses here.
Pretty good; I shall return to this later today and finish up my read through and comments. I anticipate supporting as with previous Hawkeye articles. –
♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)reply
[...] but Eisenhower decided that logistic situation was sufficiently [...] "that the logistical situation was"
When a particular type looked as if it was going to be in short supply, the first army to recognize this could requisition as much as possible, thereby initiating the shortage and depriving the other armies of their fair share. The first time I read this, I got very confused.
Y Changed to: The first army to recognize that a particular type was going to be in short supply could requisition as much of it as possible, thereby initiating the shortage and depriving the other armies of their fair share.
[...] horizontal volute spring suspension (HVSS) [...] high velocity armor piercing (HVAP) [...] Neither of these acronyms are used again.
A very well illustrated article. Having inspected them all, the following may need checking for author information, as it seems the source (PhotosNormandie) is credited as the author which is not right. Perhaps "Author unknown, but likely US Army/Navy/Government personnel"?
Yes, PhotosNormandie obtained US Army Signal Corps images. I have adjusted the credits on Commons.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 00:26, 2 December 2021 (UTC)reply
File:Tanks are disembarked at Cherbourg.jpg
File:Unloading the oil tanker Empire Traveller at Cherbourg.jpg
Army Signal Corps photo (note Signal Corps id 198960-8 on the image)
File:Aerial view of an oil tanker discharging at the digue de Querqueville.jpg
File:Tanker trucks of the 3990th Quartermaster (Transportation Corps) Truck Company.jpg
File:Refilling jerricans from tanker trucks.jpg
Army Signal Corps photo (note Signal Corps id 198959-5 on the image)
The rest look to be appropriately licenced with US/CC tags.
Zawed (
talk) 23:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Looks good to me.
Zawed (
talk) 03:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is the second part of the treatment of American logistics in the Siegfried Line campaign. It chronicles a series of avoidable problems.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 20:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)reply
Support Comments from Iazyges
Completely forgot I had taken this up, apologies. I have made some edits, feel free to reverse them.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Lede
developed from a reluctance to accept new, efficient, field-tested items presumably they weren't reluctant to accept better items so much as reluctant to accept new items which were actually better, perhaps developed from a reluctance to accept new items, even when field-tested and efficient,
Y Changed to "reluctance to accept new items".
Background
Operation Cobra, which commenced on 25 July, effected a turnaround in the operational situation by achieving a breakout from the Normandy lodgment area for a layman reader it may not be clear who is breaking out, perhaps Operation Cobra, which the Allies commenced on 25 July, effected a turnaround in the operational situation by achieving a breakout from the Normandy lodgment area
Railways could not be repaired and pipelines constructed quickly enough I believe this and should be an or, or else Railways could not be repaired and pipelines were not constructed quickly enough
Y Changed to "Railways could not be repaired and pipelines could not be constructed quickly enough." but not sure what the basis for your belief is.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Development
Littlejohn did not like the M1943 jacket at all. suggest Littlejohn did not approve of the M1943 jacket.
Y Deleted "at all". Don't want to say "approve" as this has a different meaning.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Footwear
but it seems that the next generation was bigger suggest changing bigger to larger
Y Changed as suggested. Aside: another problem that recurred in the 1960s and 1990s.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Workarounds
The armies worked around the shortages in several ways. The main one was ammunition rationing. The American command setup was an obstacle here not a big fan of these sentences, perhaps: Although the American command setup was an obstacle, the armies worked around the shortages in several ways, especially through ammunition rationing.
it gave the 12th Army Group a much better picture of what was going on. suggest changing what was going on to the situation
Y "Situation" is another technical term, referring to operations. Changed to "a better picture of the stockpile".
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Production
$2,391 million in 2019 suggest $2.391 billion in 2019
the UK that had been acquired under Lend-Lease suggest the UK that had been acquired under the Lend-Lease policy
Lend-Lease was a law, not a policy. It is usually referred to this way. See the
Lend-Lease article.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
That is all of my suggestions, apologies again for taking so long.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
No worries. Thanks for the review. You're not the last I'm afraid.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Source review/Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: G'day, Hawkeye, nice work as usual. Sorry, I don't have time for a full review at the moment, so I have a few minor points, including a source review:
AustralianRupert (
talk) 12:34, 10 October 2021 (UTC)reply
ext links all work (no action required)
all sources appear to be reliable based on authors or publishers (no action required)
spot checked citations 78 and 107 - 78 seems GTG; I couldn't see the date of 25 December mentioned on 107, though. Did I miss it in the source?
all information appears to be referenced (no action required)
in the lead, "Northwestern Europe" is overlinked
cold injury is overlinked in the Medical section
"In 1944–45" --> "In 1944–1945"
"with the 75mm gun M2–M6" --> non breaking space?
75 mm gun is overlinked in the Tanks section
Siegfried Line is overlinked in the Liquid fuels section
G'day, thanks, I will try to take a better look when I get back to a place with better internet (maybe in a few days, hopefully). In the meantime, a couple of the changes look a bit strange to me -- do Americans really use "improvize" and "supervize"? I could be wrong (I am more times than I would like), but that does not look correct to me. Can you please check? Regards,
AustralianRupert (
talk) 14:15, 16 October 2021 (UTC)reply
They only spell the suffix -ize in words that came to English through Latin -izare. Corrected.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:33, 16 October 2021 (UTC)reply
Didn't realize the article was meant to be American English (although that does make sense), I've had another look through the article and don't see anything that stands out as non-American, except the usage of "Smart" appearance which I don't think really shares meaning to the average American, who might consider the used meaning as somewhere near the fourth possible meaning if they are even aware of it. Perhaps "a well kept" would work better.
IazygesConsermonorOpus meum 05:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
To be more precise, it is written in American military. "smart" is one of those words the US Army is fond of.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 05:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
"Eisenhower decided to continue the pursuit of the retreating German forces beyond the Seine" --> potentially clarify what the other option was? I assume pausing and stablising LOC?
sometimes you use the definite article and sometimes you don't, for instance "against Third Army's rail transport" v "contrast, the First Army had turned" --> suggest consistency
"A major problem here was insufficient training in their use." --> "A major contributing factor was insufficient training in their use"?
Y I like that one. Changed as suggested.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 05:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)reply
not quite sure about the Medical section being completely related to the topic of "supply" as such. When I saw the section header, I assumed it would be about the provision of Class VIII including blood products, rather than discussing casualty numbers, causes and backloading (arguablly not really a supply function, IMO). Potentially the article title could be "American supply and medical support in the Siegfried Line campaign"?
[...] for which there were only fourteen berths. The situation hardly improved in October, at the end of which there were 80 ships and only eighteen berths. Every number greater than 10 should be rendered with a numeral.
Y Not quite: Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words (
MOS:NUMBER); but changed as suggested.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 19:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)reply
By December, the backlog had not been reduced, but had grown [...] The middle clause here could be removed with no loss in quality to the prose.
Seventh Army, which was supported by the Southern Line of Communications (SOLOC) instead of COMZ, and therefore drew its supplies from NATOUSA, received winter clothing by air on 26 September. I'm confused by the second and third clauses here.
Pretty good; I shall return to this later today and finish up my read through and comments. I anticipate supporting as with previous Hawkeye articles. –
♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)reply
[...] but Eisenhower decided that logistic situation was sufficiently [...] "that the logistical situation was"
When a particular type looked as if it was going to be in short supply, the first army to recognize this could requisition as much as possible, thereby initiating the shortage and depriving the other armies of their fair share. The first time I read this, I got very confused.
Y Changed to: The first army to recognize that a particular type was going to be in short supply could requisition as much of it as possible, thereby initiating the shortage and depriving the other armies of their fair share.
[...] horizontal volute spring suspension (HVSS) [...] high velocity armor piercing (HVAP) [...] Neither of these acronyms are used again.
A very well illustrated article. Having inspected them all, the following may need checking for author information, as it seems the source (PhotosNormandie) is credited as the author which is not right. Perhaps "Author unknown, but likely US Army/Navy/Government personnel"?
Yes, PhotosNormandie obtained US Army Signal Corps images. I have adjusted the credits on Commons.
Hawkeye7(discuss) 00:26, 2 December 2021 (UTC)reply
File:Tanks are disembarked at Cherbourg.jpg
File:Unloading the oil tanker Empire Traveller at Cherbourg.jpg
Army Signal Corps photo (note Signal Corps id 198960-8 on the image)
File:Aerial view of an oil tanker discharging at the digue de Querqueville.jpg
File:Tanker trucks of the 3990th Quartermaster (Transportation Corps) Truck Company.jpg
File:Refilling jerricans from tanker trucks.jpg
Army Signal Corps photo (note Signal Corps id 198959-5 on the image)
The rest look to be appropriately licenced with US/CC tags.
Zawed (
talk) 23:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Looks good to me.
Zawed (
talk) 03:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.