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talk page or in a
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Not a useful rationale template. Unlike, say, album covers, company logos or film posters, there is no presumption in favour of television screenshots in any article. This template simply encourages inappropriate images to be uploaded with an utterly useless rationale- "This image is intended to illustrate the subject in question from a television programme." Any screenshot usage will require a specific, detailed rationale, not this.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
20:06, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment: As my concern with this template is more related to the NFC policies than any template-specific guidelines, I have advertised this discussion
here.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
20:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Deprecate (and perhaps later delete) probably by redirecting to the standard NFUR template, which would put it into a maintenance category needing a purpose. Reasons per nomination. Should we message image uploaders? --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk) 20:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC) withdrawing not-vote while discussion about how to improve the template proceeds. --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk)
10:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Deprecate/Delete While we regularly allow screenshots, there is no standard reason for including them and thus a boilerplate rationale makes no sense (editors need to prove a need). --
MASEM (
t)
20:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment as creator: I see what you mean, Josh Milburn. I think I envisaged that this would be used for fictional characters/things from TV shows, but the existing wording sounds as if the template claims to cover screenshots of real people/things, which of course would generally not be valid.
File:Sehlat.jpg and
File:Xindi-Species.JPG are examples where I used the template to state a rationale, which I believe are valid. (Both are Star Trek images that would otherwise have been deleted.)
File:Organian council.jpg is an example of a (valid) use for a fictional species and a (non valid?) use for an actor, added later by another editor.
Thanks for understanding my concern- that explanation does sound reasonable. I suppose I wouldn't object to a template something like "Non-free use rationale fictional entity screenshot" to capture those kinds of cases (fictional characters, swords, species, whatever). It could be a generic rationale for a single image of a fictional entity in the infobox/lead in the article about said fictional entity. However, the template itself would have to be much more specific than this, and I think the documentation (and/or template itself) would need to be much clearer what the purpose was- it wasn't clear to me, and it wasn't clear to many of the people using it. In addition, someone would need to keep an eye on it. For illustrative purposes: I checked the first ten transclusions. At first glance, two were rationales of the kind you/I have described:
File:AMcCord NClark.jpg and
File:Victorsenyung.gif (though that latter image is used elsewhere more problematically). Three were in the same sort of area, in that they were images of fictional entities in articles about/addressing the entities, but their usage is more controversial, as they appear in lists or they are not the sole image of the entity:
File:Callahanreview.jpg,
File:Zero Louise.jpg,
File:Saito Hiraga.jpg. A template rationale is not appropriate in these cases. The remaining five were not of the kind you described, and, regardless of the merits of the use in question (some, at first glance, are acceptable, while some are less so), this template (and/or the better template we're imagining) would not be appropriate:
File:Kids Choice Awards 2000 logo.png,
File:Wcbi news 2009.png,
File:Charlielolacartoon.jpg,
File:Welcome to Korea (M*A*S*H episode).jpg,
File:WateranimationLAM.jpg. I think we can all agree that if this is representative, there's a real problem with the template right now. (As an aside, using the "what links here" tool, you can show only transclusions if desired. There's also a transclusion count tool- there are 282 at time of writing.) I'm going to have a go at cleaning out some of the current inappropriate transclusions, but I doubt I'll get far.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
23:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Thanks to Josh's links, I notice now that, although the doc doesn't say so, the boilerplate purpose (which I don't like for the reasons in the nomination) can be overridden by a custom one - as was done for the Kids Choice Awards logo that Josh mentioned. This makes the template useful for more situations, such as 'illustrate an episode that is the subject of critical commentary in the article' and 'represent a scene/technique/visual that is the subject of critical commentary in the article'. --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk)
10:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Perhaps, but I'm not really seeing what this adds that could not fit just as comfortably into the standard template. If we were to deprecate, switching over to that one would be the best option in those cases. I've already done
one. I think if we were to have a template of the kind mentioned above, it would be better for it to be a whole new one. That said, I'm not sure I do support it- I note that Fayenatic london's examples are two images which are definitely not the sort that should rely on a "template" rationale.
File:Xindi-Species.JPG is a whopping six non-free images brought into one file (presumably in an attempt, probably in good faith but misguided, to circumvent NFCC#3a) while
File:Sehlat.jpg is a non-free image used to illustrate a list, which is a controversial issue. Neither of these should be relying on template rationales- if these are what are being brought forward to support the retention of this template, I think that says a lot.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
16:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete Per
WP:NFCC#10c, all non-free files are required to have a valid fair use rationale. By default, this template uses an invalid purpose, although you may override this by using the "Purpose" parameter. This means that unless the "Purpose" parameter is used, the file currently doesn't have a valid FUR and doesn't satisfy
WP:NFCC#10c. Therefore, either delete the template altogether (so that the files using it may be tagged for deletion per
WP:CSD#F6), or add {{subst:dfu|Invalid [[WP:FUR|]]: invalid purpose given.}} to all files which do not use the "Purpose" parameter. --
Stefan2 (
talk)
14:59, 24 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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Keep – This template is not equivalent to the auto generated links. The auto generated link generates a single external link. This template in addition generates an internal link to
PMID that provides an explanation for the external link. Compare:
auto generated link: PMID 12345 →
PMID12345 (external link only)
If the auto generated link were modified to behave like this template, then I would support deleting this template.
Boghog (
talk)
12:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
delete, the difference is small enough and dropping the link to the PMID article is helpful due to overlinking problems.
Frietjes (
talk)
18:19, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
@
Frietjes and
Magioladitis: This template is mainly used in talk space where overlinking is generally not an issue. The whole point of the template is to provide an internal link to explain what the link means and to provide consistency with how pmid links are displayed in
Module:Citation/CS1 style citations.
Boghog (
talk)
18:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Provisional keep unless the autogenerated link is modified. This is almost exclusively used on talk pages; suggesting the use of {{cite journal}} in talk page discussions is the exact opposite of KISS.
Opabinia regalis (
talk) 20:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC) "Provisional" struck; template has been upgraded with new, non-redundant features.
Opabinia regalis (
talk)
07:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment – It's really pointless shit like this that makes me less inclined to stick around on wikipedia. Instead of addressing actual templates with issues, we end up wasting time bickering over dumb shit like the perceived utility/usefulness, or lack thereof, in a template which one person finds useful, but a second person does not. Cases in point: this Tfd and the Tfd for {{Addiction glossary}}. What does deleting a slightly redundant, yet still slightly functionally distinct template like this – one which some people find useful – actually accomplish anyway? Just one less template out of the countless remainder? (aside: how exactly is the # of redundant wikilinks on talk pages an issue?)
Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢)
20:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Keep – This deletion nom is misleading because it suggests this template and the autogenerated PMID link do exactly the same thing, when quite clearly they do not. If partial (not full) redundancy is the only reason for this Tfd, then even if the added functionality is useful to only a small number of editors, there's no reason it shouldn't be kept;
WP:JDL isn't adequate justification to remove that added utility which it provides to some editors.
Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢)
20:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete. The PMID magic word does the trick, and we really don't need to be told every time what a PMID is. This template is transcluded on 54 pages.
JFW |
T@lk17:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
@
Jfdwolff: You and I do not need this explanation, but this template was intended for use on talk pages often in communication with first time IP editors that may not know what a pmid is. Finally "don't need to be told every time" – "template is transcluded on 54 pages". Somehow I think there is a disconnect between these two statements.
Boghog (
talk)
19:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
@
Boghog: The observation about transclusion was not intended to support my argument. In all honesty, I was expecting 100s of transclusions. Which begs the question: if we want to make life easier for IP editors, shouldn't the template be used much more intensively?
JFW |
T@lk19:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete Essentially redundant. Looking at several of the talk pages where this is found, they were all messages added by Boghog. No need for this with the PMID magic word already doing the work and virtually only one editor using the template.
Bgwhite (
talk)
05:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)reply
As already explained above, this template is not redundant. If the PMID magic word were modified so that it included an internal link to
PMID, then it would be redundant.
Boghog (
talk)
06:13, 24 June 2015 (UTC)reply
There have been two main criticisms of this template. The first is that it is equivalent to auto generated links. In addition to the template generating an internal link, the template now also supports multiple PMIDs which auto generated links do not do. Compare:
The second criticism is that including the internal link is
WP:OVERLINKING. In article space, this is debatably over linking, but this template was never intended to be used in articles, only in talk pages. To reduce the chance that this template will be used in article space, a caution banner has now been added to the documentation:
This template is only intended for use on talk pages. For articles, please use {{cite journal}} or equivalent instead.
and an error message will be generated by the template: PMID3 template error, this template should not be used in articles if the template is added to an article. This should deter most editors from using it this way.
Boghog (
talk)
05:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Keep Improved version of template clearly provides utility beyond that of the PMID magic word. Other arguments for deletion are sufficiently addressed. Whether the PMID magic word should be altered is an interesting question but beyond the scope of this TfD.
Adrian J. Hunter(
talk•
contribs)08:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Thanks Magioladitis. That was certainly my intention when I created this template and that is how I have used it myself. The caution banner and error message should now make crystal clear that the template should only be used on talk pages.
Boghog (
talk)
10:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Merge The differences between PMID, PMID2, and PMID3 are so minuscule that the existence of not one, not two, but THREE templates is completely unwarranted.
That's it. No other difference. The correct solution to this situation is merging PMID2 and PMID3 into PMID and adding a new parameter to PMID that controls output format.
What's wrong with three templates? Same reason why subroutines / functions were created in programming languages ages ago. The current situation with three templates reflects lack of experience with programming more than anything else.
Boghog You're right--PMID should generate an internal link as well as the external link. If it doesn't, well, with your experience, I am sure you know that the correct solution is fix the template code in PMID, not create a new template (e.g. PMID3) with working code.
Knife-in-the-drawer (
talk)
13:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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Propose mergingTemplate:UPC search link with
Template:UPC.
After fixing 1000s of broken ISBNs, I am now making order with templates encountered during the process. Keep UPC. Merge UPC search link into UPC. Reasons: 1. Each template is simplistic 2. Each template requires the same parameter 3. The templates differ only in format of the output 4. Minimal number of affected users: UPC search link has only 3 transclusions. -
Knife-in-the-drawer (
talk)
11:13, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Support, but include parameter to suppress display of the label and use that parameter in the cases that were using the parameter-free template, I would think. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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NENAN and FANCRUFT; we simply don't need a template of team's captains, it's just silly. I am convinced a similar navbox for a different club has been previously deleted but I can't remember which...
GiantSnowman07:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete - unlike the position of manager, being the captain of a team is really a very insignificant position with little responsibility other than "geeing up" the players. We really don't need captaincy navboxes --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
19:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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Not a useful rationale template. Unlike, say, album covers, company logos or film posters, there is no presumption in favour of television screenshots in any article. This template simply encourages inappropriate images to be uploaded with an utterly useless rationale- "This image is intended to illustrate the subject in question from a television programme." Any screenshot usage will require a specific, detailed rationale, not this.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
20:06, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment: As my concern with this template is more related to the NFC policies than any template-specific guidelines, I have advertised this discussion
here.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
20:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Deprecate (and perhaps later delete) probably by redirecting to the standard NFUR template, which would put it into a maintenance category needing a purpose. Reasons per nomination. Should we message image uploaders? --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk) 20:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC) withdrawing not-vote while discussion about how to improve the template proceeds. --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk)
10:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Deprecate/Delete While we regularly allow screenshots, there is no standard reason for including them and thus a boilerplate rationale makes no sense (editors need to prove a need). --
MASEM (
t)
20:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment as creator: I see what you mean, Josh Milburn. I think I envisaged that this would be used for fictional characters/things from TV shows, but the existing wording sounds as if the template claims to cover screenshots of real people/things, which of course would generally not be valid.
File:Sehlat.jpg and
File:Xindi-Species.JPG are examples where I used the template to state a rationale, which I believe are valid. (Both are Star Trek images that would otherwise have been deleted.)
File:Organian council.jpg is an example of a (valid) use for a fictional species and a (non valid?) use for an actor, added later by another editor.
Thanks for understanding my concern- that explanation does sound reasonable. I suppose I wouldn't object to a template something like "Non-free use rationale fictional entity screenshot" to capture those kinds of cases (fictional characters, swords, species, whatever). It could be a generic rationale for a single image of a fictional entity in the infobox/lead in the article about said fictional entity. However, the template itself would have to be much more specific than this, and I think the documentation (and/or template itself) would need to be much clearer what the purpose was- it wasn't clear to me, and it wasn't clear to many of the people using it. In addition, someone would need to keep an eye on it. For illustrative purposes: I checked the first ten transclusions. At first glance, two were rationales of the kind you/I have described:
File:AMcCord NClark.jpg and
File:Victorsenyung.gif (though that latter image is used elsewhere more problematically). Three were in the same sort of area, in that they were images of fictional entities in articles about/addressing the entities, but their usage is more controversial, as they appear in lists or they are not the sole image of the entity:
File:Callahanreview.jpg,
File:Zero Louise.jpg,
File:Saito Hiraga.jpg. A template rationale is not appropriate in these cases. The remaining five were not of the kind you described, and, regardless of the merits of the use in question (some, at first glance, are acceptable, while some are less so), this template (and/or the better template we're imagining) would not be appropriate:
File:Kids Choice Awards 2000 logo.png,
File:Wcbi news 2009.png,
File:Charlielolacartoon.jpg,
File:Welcome to Korea (M*A*S*H episode).jpg,
File:WateranimationLAM.jpg. I think we can all agree that if this is representative, there's a real problem with the template right now. (As an aside, using the "what links here" tool, you can show only transclusions if desired. There's also a transclusion count tool- there are 282 at time of writing.) I'm going to have a go at cleaning out some of the current inappropriate transclusions, but I doubt I'll get far.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
23:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Thanks to Josh's links, I notice now that, although the doc doesn't say so, the boilerplate purpose (which I don't like for the reasons in the nomination) can be overridden by a custom one - as was done for the Kids Choice Awards logo that Josh mentioned. This makes the template useful for more situations, such as 'illustrate an episode that is the subject of critical commentary in the article' and 'represent a scene/technique/visual that is the subject of critical commentary in the article'. --
Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (
Talk)
10:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Perhaps, but I'm not really seeing what this adds that could not fit just as comfortably into the standard template. If we were to deprecate, switching over to that one would be the best option in those cases. I've already done
one. I think if we were to have a template of the kind mentioned above, it would be better for it to be a whole new one. That said, I'm not sure I do support it- I note that Fayenatic london's examples are two images which are definitely not the sort that should rely on a "template" rationale.
File:Xindi-Species.JPG is a whopping six non-free images brought into one file (presumably in an attempt, probably in good faith but misguided, to circumvent NFCC#3a) while
File:Sehlat.jpg is a non-free image used to illustrate a list, which is a controversial issue. Neither of these should be relying on template rationales- if these are what are being brought forward to support the retention of this template, I think that says a lot.
Josh Milburn (
talk)
16:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete Per
WP:NFCC#10c, all non-free files are required to have a valid fair use rationale. By default, this template uses an invalid purpose, although you may override this by using the "Purpose" parameter. This means that unless the "Purpose" parameter is used, the file currently doesn't have a valid FUR and doesn't satisfy
WP:NFCC#10c. Therefore, either delete the template altogether (so that the files using it may be tagged for deletion per
WP:CSD#F6), or add {{subst:dfu|Invalid [[WP:FUR|]]: invalid purpose given.}} to all files which do not use the "Purpose" parameter. --
Stefan2 (
talk)
14:59, 24 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Keep – This template is not equivalent to the auto generated links. The auto generated link generates a single external link. This template in addition generates an internal link to
PMID that provides an explanation for the external link. Compare:
auto generated link: PMID 12345 →
PMID12345 (external link only)
If the auto generated link were modified to behave like this template, then I would support deleting this template.
Boghog (
talk)
12:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
delete, the difference is small enough and dropping the link to the PMID article is helpful due to overlinking problems.
Frietjes (
talk)
18:19, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
@
Frietjes and
Magioladitis: This template is mainly used in talk space where overlinking is generally not an issue. The whole point of the template is to provide an internal link to explain what the link means and to provide consistency with how pmid links are displayed in
Module:Citation/CS1 style citations.
Boghog (
talk)
18:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Provisional keep unless the autogenerated link is modified. This is almost exclusively used on talk pages; suggesting the use of {{cite journal}} in talk page discussions is the exact opposite of KISS.
Opabinia regalis (
talk) 20:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC) "Provisional" struck; template has been upgraded with new, non-redundant features.
Opabinia regalis (
talk)
07:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment – It's really pointless shit like this that makes me less inclined to stick around on wikipedia. Instead of addressing actual templates with issues, we end up wasting time bickering over dumb shit like the perceived utility/usefulness, or lack thereof, in a template which one person finds useful, but a second person does not. Cases in point: this Tfd and the Tfd for {{Addiction glossary}}. What does deleting a slightly redundant, yet still slightly functionally distinct template like this – one which some people find useful – actually accomplish anyway? Just one less template out of the countless remainder? (aside: how exactly is the # of redundant wikilinks on talk pages an issue?)
Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢)
20:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Keep – This deletion nom is misleading because it suggests this template and the autogenerated PMID link do exactly the same thing, when quite clearly they do not. If partial (not full) redundancy is the only reason for this Tfd, then even if the added functionality is useful to only a small number of editors, there's no reason it shouldn't be kept;
WP:JDL isn't adequate justification to remove that added utility which it provides to some editors.
Seppi333 (
Insert 2¢)
20:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete. The PMID magic word does the trick, and we really don't need to be told every time what a PMID is. This template is transcluded on 54 pages.
JFW |
T@lk17:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
@
Jfdwolff: You and I do not need this explanation, but this template was intended for use on talk pages often in communication with first time IP editors that may not know what a pmid is. Finally "don't need to be told every time" – "template is transcluded on 54 pages". Somehow I think there is a disconnect between these two statements.
Boghog (
talk)
19:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
@
Boghog: The observation about transclusion was not intended to support my argument. In all honesty, I was expecting 100s of transclusions. Which begs the question: if we want to make life easier for IP editors, shouldn't the template be used much more intensively?
JFW |
T@lk19:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete Essentially redundant. Looking at several of the talk pages where this is found, they were all messages added by Boghog. No need for this with the PMID magic word already doing the work and virtually only one editor using the template.
Bgwhite (
talk)
05:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)reply
As already explained above, this template is not redundant. If the PMID magic word were modified so that it included an internal link to
PMID, then it would be redundant.
Boghog (
talk)
06:13, 24 June 2015 (UTC)reply
There have been two main criticisms of this template. The first is that it is equivalent to auto generated links. In addition to the template generating an internal link, the template now also supports multiple PMIDs which auto generated links do not do. Compare:
The second criticism is that including the internal link is
WP:OVERLINKING. In article space, this is debatably over linking, but this template was never intended to be used in articles, only in talk pages. To reduce the chance that this template will be used in article space, a caution banner has now been added to the documentation:
This template is only intended for use on talk pages. For articles, please use {{cite journal}} or equivalent instead.
and an error message will be generated by the template: PMID3 template error, this template should not be used in articles if the template is added to an article. This should deter most editors from using it this way.
Boghog (
talk)
05:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Keep Improved version of template clearly provides utility beyond that of the PMID magic word. Other arguments for deletion are sufficiently addressed. Whether the PMID magic word should be altered is an interesting question but beyond the scope of this TfD.
Adrian J. Hunter(
talk•
contribs)08:09, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Thanks Magioladitis. That was certainly my intention when I created this template and that is how I have used it myself. The caution banner and error message should now make crystal clear that the template should only be used on talk pages.
Boghog (
talk)
10:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Merge The differences between PMID, PMID2, and PMID3 are so minuscule that the existence of not one, not two, but THREE templates is completely unwarranted.
That's it. No other difference. The correct solution to this situation is merging PMID2 and PMID3 into PMID and adding a new parameter to PMID that controls output format.
What's wrong with three templates? Same reason why subroutines / functions were created in programming languages ages ago. The current situation with three templates reflects lack of experience with programming more than anything else.
Boghog You're right--PMID should generate an internal link as well as the external link. If it doesn't, well, with your experience, I am sure you know that the correct solution is fix the template code in PMID, not create a new template (e.g. PMID3) with working code.
Knife-in-the-drawer (
talk)
13:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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Propose mergingTemplate:UPC search link with
Template:UPC.
After fixing 1000s of broken ISBNs, I am now making order with templates encountered during the process. Keep UPC. Merge UPC search link into UPC. Reasons: 1. Each template is simplistic 2. Each template requires the same parameter 3. The templates differ only in format of the output 4. Minimal number of affected users: UPC search link has only 3 transclusions. -
Knife-in-the-drawer (
talk)
11:13, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Support, but include parameter to suppress display of the label and use that parameter in the cases that were using the parameter-free template, I would think. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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NENAN and FANCRUFT; we simply don't need a template of team's captains, it's just silly. I am convinced a similar navbox for a different club has been previously deleted but I can't remember which...
GiantSnowman07:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Delete - unlike the position of manager, being the captain of a team is really a very insignificant position with little responsibility other than "geeing up" the players. We really don't need captaincy navboxes --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
19:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)reply
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