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There has been a great deal of discussion about which 9/11 victims should have their own pages, and there is still some strong disagreement.
Articles on victims are frequently but sporadically listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Similar arguments are regularly repeated for each page as it appears, sometimes from the same people, sometimes from new participants. This page seeks to lessen this duplication of effort when such a page is created and proposed for deletion, both by summarising existing decisions so that old hands don't need to repeat their contributions and by bringing new participants on Vfd up to date on what has gone before.
There are also several discussions and positions in the Meta Wikipedia; see below.
The proposed policy is that being a 9/11 victim does not in itself qualify anyone for an article. Victims of 9/11 should be treated in the same way as any other people when deciding whether or not they should have biographical articles in Wikipedia. No-one has ever disputed this policy, but it is included here just to make that fact clear.
9/11 victims who qualify for inclusion according to the same criteria that apply to other people do not lose this qualification simply because of the way that they died, of course. There seems to be general agreement that Mychal F. Judge, for example, qualifies for an article, even though he died in the attacks. This implies that articles on 9/11 victims may not be removed from Wikipedia without first being listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion for the usual time period. They are not candidates for speedy deletion.
The problem is that there is much disagreement about what criteria need to be satisfied to have a biographical article in Wikipedia. This is a general concern, applying equally to all biographical articles. However, many people have misunderstood this, believing that there are people who want the 9/11 victims to be treated differently. This misunderstanding has been the source of much confusion.
As noted on Wikipedia:Importance (and discussed on Wikipedia talk:Importance), there is no consensus that lack of fame or importance of a subject is sufficient reason for deleting an article on that subject. A disagreement on a general principle implies disagreement on any particular instance of that principle, of course. There should be no need for anyone to repeat their arguments for every individual case if their argument for the general principle is known. It follows that any individual deletion taking place for reasons of lack of fame or importance does not have consensus support, regardless of who happened to take part in the discussion of the individual case on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion.
However, such deletions do persistently take place. Although they are sometimes contested on Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion, the decisions to delete are usually upheld, because the present undeletion policy does not recognise the idea that deletions are only valid if there is a consensus for deletion.
The idea that being a 9/11 victim does not in itself qualify anyone for an article follows from the fact that being a 9/11 victim is not necessarily verifiable.
For such a fact to be verifiable, it would need to have been published. There are few Wikipedians who support the inclusion of information that has not previously been published (see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research). On the other hand, there are many Wikipedians who hold the opinion that any material which has been published, and which is still accessible to the general public, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. It follows that such Wikipedians support the inclusion of information on any 9/11 victim who has, for example, had a death notice published in a newspaper now held in a public archive (e.g. on the Web).
For related information, see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:No original research. Note that the second of these remains a proposal, not a policy.
Because of the great interest in recognising the 9/11 victims, a memorial website has been established, separate from the encyclopaedia. While originally intended for tributes, not neutral encyclopaedia articles, as of May 2004 the website seems to allow neutral articles alongside tributes. However, since Wikipedia and the 9/11 Wiki are separate projects with very different aims, the presence of an article on one site implies nothing about the suitability of an article in the other.
If a Wikipedia article on a 9/11 victim is unverifiable, has intractable NPOV problems, or otherwise fails to qualify for inclusion in Wikipedia, it is normally moved or merged to the memorial site, without leaving a redirect.
Pages to be moved from English Wikipedia to the Memorial Wiki are listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion.
Any appropriate article and talk page contents are moved or merged to the Memorial Wiki by the transwiki process; see below. This can occur at any time. If the decision is to keep, both articles are kept. Editors in the respective wikis are then responsible for deciding what text is appropriate for each, by the normal editing process.
If the decision is to delete, the entry is deleted after the normal period. No redirect or history is kept in the English Wikipedia. People searching the English Wikipedia for a particular name will find the list of victims, which links to the Memorial Wiki.
The transwiki process from the English Wikipedia to the 9/11 Memorial Wiki is a specialised one. It can be performed by any editor; Administrative rights are not required.
The transwiki process preserves the list of authors as required by the GFDL, but unlike a move within a single Wiki does not preserve the full history. This will be resolved once the import function is added to the MediaWiki software, which should occur in version 1.3. Until then, you are encouraged to export the full history using Special:Export and save it somewhere in the sep11 wiki, in anticipation of future import.
The process for the Memorial Wiki is simpler than other transwiki moves because there is neither a Transwiki namespace nor a Transwiki log in the Memorial Wiki. These are not required assuming that:
See also the following Meta pages:
See also:
Many other relevant pages are linked to from the archived discussions below.
Feel free to add more examples, when discussion has finished on the original page. In the case of VfD, this means after the vote has closed, and please also note any action taken as a result and when. If and when any of these sections grow too big we'll create separate pages for them.
Archived discussions should not of course be modified! For subsequent discussion see this article's talk page, accessible by the discuss this page link below.
Can anyone tell me what the current policy is on the deletion of 9/11 victims' articles, and where a discussion is or was taking place about this policy? Cheers. -- Graham :) | Talk 17:31, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
AFAIK there is no policy. Originally the plan was to move the POV and original research information to 9/11 wiki and keep the NPOV and verifiable information here. But lately people have been ignoring this and listing NPOV and verifiable 9/11 people on VfD, many of them successfully being deleted. anthony (this comment is a work in progress and may change without prior notice) 01:53, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
We don't need to have every debate archived here, but we should try to preserve the record and discussion of any new ideas and issues that arise.
(most recent first as it's easier to add them in that order)
Result: Deleted 7 April 2004.
Another September 11 victim. Adam Bishop 05:08, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Result: Deleted 7 April 2004.
Non-famous 9/11 victims. Move to Sep 11 wiki and delete. -- Jia ng 08:05, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Result: All deleted 06 April 2004.
Some unfamous people who were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time, all have been moved to the 9/11 wiki.-- Jia ng 052004 (UTC)
Result: All deleted 30 March 2004.
• BRASERO MURGA FLORENCIO • BOGDAN LIVIA • BODEA ANCA VALERIA • BENITO SAMANIEGO RODOLFO • BEN SALAH IMDDAOUAN SANAE • BEDOYA GLORIA INES • BARAJAS DIAZ GONZALO • BARAHONA IMEDIO FRANCISCO JAVIER • BALLESTEROS IBARRA SUSANA • BADAJOZ CANO MIGUEL ANGEL • AVILA JIMENEZ ANA ISABEL • ASTOCONDOR MASGO NEIL HEBE • ARENAS BARROSO ALBERTO • APARICIO SOMOLINOS MARIA NURIA • ANDRIANOV ANDRIYAN ASENOV • ALVAREZ GONZALEZ MARIA JOSEFA • ALONSO RODRIGUEZ JUAN ALBERTO • AGUADO ROJANO FLORENCIO • ACERO USHIÑA LILIANA GUILLERMINA • ABRIL ALEGRE OSCAR • ABAD QUIJADA EVA BELEN==
All non famous. Should be treated the same as 9//11 victims theresa knott 13:54, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Result: All deleted 29 March 2004.
![]() | This page is currently inactive and is retained for
historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. |
There has been a great deal of discussion about which 9/11 victims should have their own pages, and there is still some strong disagreement.
Articles on victims are frequently but sporadically listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Similar arguments are regularly repeated for each page as it appears, sometimes from the same people, sometimes from new participants. This page seeks to lessen this duplication of effort when such a page is created and proposed for deletion, both by summarising existing decisions so that old hands don't need to repeat their contributions and by bringing new participants on Vfd up to date on what has gone before.
There are also several discussions and positions in the Meta Wikipedia; see below.
The proposed policy is that being a 9/11 victim does not in itself qualify anyone for an article. Victims of 9/11 should be treated in the same way as any other people when deciding whether or not they should have biographical articles in Wikipedia. No-one has ever disputed this policy, but it is included here just to make that fact clear.
9/11 victims who qualify for inclusion according to the same criteria that apply to other people do not lose this qualification simply because of the way that they died, of course. There seems to be general agreement that Mychal F. Judge, for example, qualifies for an article, even though he died in the attacks. This implies that articles on 9/11 victims may not be removed from Wikipedia without first being listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion for the usual time period. They are not candidates for speedy deletion.
The problem is that there is much disagreement about what criteria need to be satisfied to have a biographical article in Wikipedia. This is a general concern, applying equally to all biographical articles. However, many people have misunderstood this, believing that there are people who want the 9/11 victims to be treated differently. This misunderstanding has been the source of much confusion.
As noted on Wikipedia:Importance (and discussed on Wikipedia talk:Importance), there is no consensus that lack of fame or importance of a subject is sufficient reason for deleting an article on that subject. A disagreement on a general principle implies disagreement on any particular instance of that principle, of course. There should be no need for anyone to repeat their arguments for every individual case if their argument for the general principle is known. It follows that any individual deletion taking place for reasons of lack of fame or importance does not have consensus support, regardless of who happened to take part in the discussion of the individual case on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion.
However, such deletions do persistently take place. Although they are sometimes contested on Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion, the decisions to delete are usually upheld, because the present undeletion policy does not recognise the idea that deletions are only valid if there is a consensus for deletion.
The idea that being a 9/11 victim does not in itself qualify anyone for an article follows from the fact that being a 9/11 victim is not necessarily verifiable.
For such a fact to be verifiable, it would need to have been published. There are few Wikipedians who support the inclusion of information that has not previously been published (see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research). On the other hand, there are many Wikipedians who hold the opinion that any material which has been published, and which is still accessible to the general public, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. It follows that such Wikipedians support the inclusion of information on any 9/11 victim who has, for example, had a death notice published in a newspaper now held in a public archive (e.g. on the Web).
For related information, see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:No original research. Note that the second of these remains a proposal, not a policy.
Because of the great interest in recognising the 9/11 victims, a memorial website has been established, separate from the encyclopaedia. While originally intended for tributes, not neutral encyclopaedia articles, as of May 2004 the website seems to allow neutral articles alongside tributes. However, since Wikipedia and the 9/11 Wiki are separate projects with very different aims, the presence of an article on one site implies nothing about the suitability of an article in the other.
If a Wikipedia article on a 9/11 victim is unverifiable, has intractable NPOV problems, or otherwise fails to qualify for inclusion in Wikipedia, it is normally moved or merged to the memorial site, without leaving a redirect.
Pages to be moved from English Wikipedia to the Memorial Wiki are listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion.
Any appropriate article and talk page contents are moved or merged to the Memorial Wiki by the transwiki process; see below. This can occur at any time. If the decision is to keep, both articles are kept. Editors in the respective wikis are then responsible for deciding what text is appropriate for each, by the normal editing process.
If the decision is to delete, the entry is deleted after the normal period. No redirect or history is kept in the English Wikipedia. People searching the English Wikipedia for a particular name will find the list of victims, which links to the Memorial Wiki.
The transwiki process from the English Wikipedia to the 9/11 Memorial Wiki is a specialised one. It can be performed by any editor; Administrative rights are not required.
The transwiki process preserves the list of authors as required by the GFDL, but unlike a move within a single Wiki does not preserve the full history. This will be resolved once the import function is added to the MediaWiki software, which should occur in version 1.3. Until then, you are encouraged to export the full history using Special:Export and save it somewhere in the sep11 wiki, in anticipation of future import.
The process for the Memorial Wiki is simpler than other transwiki moves because there is neither a Transwiki namespace nor a Transwiki log in the Memorial Wiki. These are not required assuming that:
See also the following Meta pages:
See also:
Many other relevant pages are linked to from the archived discussions below.
Feel free to add more examples, when discussion has finished on the original page. In the case of VfD, this means after the vote has closed, and please also note any action taken as a result and when. If and when any of these sections grow too big we'll create separate pages for them.
Archived discussions should not of course be modified! For subsequent discussion see this article's talk page, accessible by the discuss this page link below.
Can anyone tell me what the current policy is on the deletion of 9/11 victims' articles, and where a discussion is or was taking place about this policy? Cheers. -- Graham :) | Talk 17:31, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
AFAIK there is no policy. Originally the plan was to move the POV and original research information to 9/11 wiki and keep the NPOV and verifiable information here. But lately people have been ignoring this and listing NPOV and verifiable 9/11 people on VfD, many of them successfully being deleted. anthony (this comment is a work in progress and may change without prior notice) 01:53, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
We don't need to have every debate archived here, but we should try to preserve the record and discussion of any new ideas and issues that arise.
(most recent first as it's easier to add them in that order)
Result: Deleted 7 April 2004.
Another September 11 victim. Adam Bishop 05:08, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Result: Deleted 7 April 2004.
Non-famous 9/11 victims. Move to Sep 11 wiki and delete. -- Jia ng 08:05, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Result: All deleted 06 April 2004.
Some unfamous people who were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time, all have been moved to the 9/11 wiki.-- Jia ng 052004 (UTC)
Result: All deleted 30 March 2004.
• BRASERO MURGA FLORENCIO • BOGDAN LIVIA • BODEA ANCA VALERIA • BENITO SAMANIEGO RODOLFO • BEN SALAH IMDDAOUAN SANAE • BEDOYA GLORIA INES • BARAJAS DIAZ GONZALO • BARAHONA IMEDIO FRANCISCO JAVIER • BALLESTEROS IBARRA SUSANA • BADAJOZ CANO MIGUEL ANGEL • AVILA JIMENEZ ANA ISABEL • ASTOCONDOR MASGO NEIL HEBE • ARENAS BARROSO ALBERTO • APARICIO SOMOLINOS MARIA NURIA • ANDRIANOV ANDRIYAN ASENOV • ALVAREZ GONZALEZ MARIA JOSEFA • ALONSO RODRIGUEZ JUAN ALBERTO • AGUADO ROJANO FLORENCIO • ACERO USHIÑA LILIANA GUILLERMINA • ABRIL ALEGRE OSCAR • ABAD QUIJADA EVA BELEN==
All non famous. Should be treated the same as 9//11 victims theresa knott 13:54, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Result: All deleted 29 March 2004.