Initial request and discussion at /Request
Well, now that we seem to have a forum that has been agreed to by all parties, I think we can proceed to the next step.
What I'd like from the parties involved is a concise declaration of the issue(s) that they see as in dispute and their requests for a resolution. In other words, what do you see wrong now, and what do you hope can be done about it? I'd like to think that everyone's above name-calling and those sort of shenanigans, so if you could all try to really be polite especially at this phase, I'd sure appreciate it.
Keep in mind that I don't have the background that any of you do in this situation, so any sort of subtlety or in-jokes or references to material that isn't present will be lost on me. I can't help you resolve this situation if I'm not presented with all of the information that you consider relevant.
So, a simple two or three line statement of your "problem" and a similar statement of your desired "solution" would be just peachy. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:35, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Kevin's analysis, but I would simply concentrate on the one hard point VeryVerily can't deny (and indeed has admitted above) - his violation of the three-revert rule. I have lately violated it myself simply because it wasn't enforced, especially against VeryVerily. But I will stop when he stops. So I ask him to join me in a pledge to respect the rule, except where third parties violate it first. Gzornenplatz 11:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
Very Verily 19:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've spent some time trying to sift through all of this.
I'd like to start off with this "3-revert rule". Now, as we all know, this "rule" is inconsistently enforced at best. It's more of a courtesy issue than anything. I understand that all parties are hesitant (and in this case, unwilling) to stay within the 3-revert rule themselves when they see others violating it.
That being said, I don't think we should continue to make an issue of the 3-revert rule in this case. First of all, parties on both sides seem to be "guilty" of it, so while that doesn't make it OK, it at least makes it equivalent. Secondly, since the rule isn't really enforced anyway, it doesn't seem that much could come of it. My recommendation is that all parties to this issue agree to abide by the 3-revert rule against each other, as relates to this dispute. Now, I'm not saying that you need to abide by the rule all the time, or even against each other in future disputes. I'm just suggesting that perhaps you can all agree that FOR THE CURRENT DISPUTE you will abide by the 3-revert rule. Now, the alternative to this (which is equally acceptable in my opinion) is for all of you to agree to ignore each others' violations of the 3-revert rule, again, for this dispute.
So, either all agree to cut it out, or all agree to stop calling each other on it.
Now, for the rest of the issues, it becomes more complicated. Whenever people complain about "rude" behavior and it's not something "obviously rude" (like "Fuck your mother" or something), there's always going to be two sides to the issue. So, I'm going to deal with the issues raised one by one, as I see the situation.
1) Good faith. Good faith means a lot of things. I don't see any clear cut edits that show that VV operates with a lack of good faith. His claim that he assumes good faith unless he has reason not to seems to pass muster. Now, there is, of course, room for disagreement as to what constitutes "unworthiness" of the assumption of good faith.
VV, I have known many people, some admins in fact, that are very short of good faith, you are not alone. That aside, I've never thought that it was a particularly good idea. I myself am guilty of lack of assumption of good faith in the past... I like to think that there were reasons for it, and that it was justified in the long run. The problem is, and I think you'll realize this, is that it can upset other users. Now, this isn't necessarily your concern, but you can't be surprised by it.
KB and Gzorn, there are good reasons sometimes to be suspect of users. While it's not very "nice", sometimes assuming that certain people are up to no good is, in fact, the proper course of action. I'm not saying that it's pleasant, or should be widespread, but it has it's place. I'd just like you to realize that its the kind of behavior that never will (nor should) disappear completely. That being said, it IS important to try and keep an open mind and assume good faith for as long as reasonable... key word there is reasonable.
Bottom line, this is a gray area, and I don't see anything so egregious that I would consider VV to be categorically operating without good faith.
2) Civility. I have a close friend who is just about the least tactful person on Earth. This person means absolutely no malice, but her comments can sometimes seem quite cutting and biting. Keep in mind, this is with spoken language and body language... and she never comes off as malicious. It's just that the phrasing can sometimes be a bit... blunt. Think how much more difficult it is to assign motivation to a person's words without body language or demeanor... without pacing of words. When you are just reading words on a page, it can be VERY difficult at times to diving a person's mental state unless a) they are clearly raving ("OMFG! YOU ASSHOLE!") or b) very precise in their word choice ("Let me be perfectly clear as to my meaning, I'm not saying you stink, I'm saying you SMELL... as in you have the ability to use your sense of smell"). Neither case makes up the majority of Talk on Wikipedia in my opinion.
VV, it always pays to be as civil as possible, which I'm sure you realize. While sarcasm is funny to many (myself included) some people have a hard time with it and view it as hurtful. That's just people... people are all different. You may want to try keeping in mind that not everyone has the same sense of humor as you. Not everyone can see into your thoughts and recognize your lack of malice. If you try and look at your words from the point of view of a third party, you may see that they sometimes look harsher than, perhaps, you intended.
KB and Gzorn, civility is a funny thing. My generation has a very different concept of civility than the one that came before it, and I daresay the one before that as well. Even within a generation, different cultures, people, genders, etc. will have different concepts of what is civil and appropriate. When you accuse someone of being uncivil, it is likely that the following is true... you are saying that if it were you doing it, it would be uncivil, because it violates your concept of civility. Please keep in mind that just because YOU consider it to be uncivil does not always mean it is intended that way. To be sure, there are cases when it is clear a person is ATTEMPTING to be uncivil, but there is always room to sit back, reflect, and try to consider that the way you are viewing words on a page may not be the same way that the person who put those words there views them.
3) Consensus. Consensus is sort of like a compromise between many individuals. Consensus is only possible amongst a group that is willing to compromise. Obviously, compromise isn't needed if all parties are in agreement, but then, that's consensus right there. The fine line part of this issue is whether or not consensus needs to be complete. In other words, what if most people DO agree, but one doesn't? What if a few people agree but some don't?
VV, woe betide those who make statements that come back to haunt them. :) It seeems that your statement about "no consensus if I disagree" is just such a statement. Since we all make them from time to time, it's no big deal, and doesn't indicate any failure on your part any greater than the rest of us. Of course, it's always best to try to be as specific as possible in order to avoid misunderstandings.
KB and Gzorn, I read VV's comment differently than you do. To consider it a requirement that all decisions pass some sort of VV-test seems rather uncharitable. It seems to me to be a direct statement of fact, that as long as strong dissent exists, consensus hasn't been achieved. Note that this is different than working towards or against consensus. From the context of the Talk pages referenced, I see VV willing to compromise. It's worth noting that I also see you willing to compromise. I don't understand, then, why individuals who seem to be willing to compromise cannot... I am guessing that this is part of the "whole lot of history" alluded to above.
Bottom line, I think that perhaps there's more to this dispute than the recent edits regarding George Bush, et al. because I can't see the reason for the rancor between the parties based on the above links.
4) POV. I'll deal with this quickly, because it seems to me to be a simple issue (I apologize if I have misanalyzed the situation).
Inserting POV itself is not a problem, it's non-sourced POV and unbalanced POV that's the issue. NPOV is not NoPointOfView, it's NeutralPointOfView, which requires reasonable attention to all sides of an issue and proper attribution of POV to its source.
5) Excision/Censorship. Frankly, I don't see VV's guilt here. Perhaps I'm not reading the edit histories carefully enough, but I don't see this. If you want to link me to history diffs, I'll be more than happy to look at them, but I wasn't able to find anything on my own. (The diff you DID provide showed someone changing VV's edits, not vice versa) VV seems to have moved a significant chunk on W's military service to a separate article on the controversy, which isn't necessarily inappropriate. The other "deletions" that I see from the Sept. 9-10 timeframe were explained by VV on the Talk page as merely restorations of OTHER PEOPLES' edits. I have no reason to disbelieve this assertion, and I don't see that anyone else has questioned his veracity on this issue other than Mike Storm who gave no evidence other than a claim that it was "suspicious" given VV's supposed behavior elsewhere.
Well...
That took a long time to write, I must say. :) I'd like you all to respond to anything that you take issue with in my above missive. Let me know if you think I'm right/wrong/mistaken about any pertinent issues. Please be aware that I'm honestly trying here, but that there is a LOT of data and I still get the feeling that I haven't been made aware of all of it. That being said, at the moment I'm a little confused as to why it is (short of simple differences of opinions) why the two sides can't just come to some sort of compromise and hammer out details on each individual point of contention.
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
Dante, I have no confidence in the above assesment and analysis. (the long post directly beneath the horizontal break) Your assesment/analysis did not demonstrate to me a thorough and accurate understanding of the situation. Instead of listing my disagreements, I'll give you some information that will help you know how much relevant information there is; the scope, in the broadest sense.
You haven't answered my question as to whether it's okay to put links to RFC's on here. Let me give you a better sense of things:
This is by no means all-encompassing. The majority of users who have privately expressed irritation have not filed or endorsed requests. More pages are involved than are listed. Issues date back past the earliest date listed in the cited material. Kevin Baas | talk 19:00, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
One more thing: Gz initially filed this request. I don't want to hold up the process that he is concerned with against his will. Kevin Baas | talk 20:22, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)
VV, I have received replies from both Gzorn and KB regarding my initial analysis, but (other than your short comment of appreciation) nothing from you. It will be difficult for me to facilitate communication between all parties if I do not know your opinion on my take of things.
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:27, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
:It has now been (roughly) 5 days since VV last posted to this page. Given that he has posted numerous times to the Wikipedia in the interim, I cannot conclude that this conversation has gone unnoticed. Therefore, at 22:44, 21 Oct 2004 (precisely one week after his above comment) I will declare this mediation dead if further progress has not been made before that time. I will then personally forward this issue in its entirety to the Arbitration Committee. --
Dante Alighieri |
Talk 22:41, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
As I've been reading the relevant talk pages and this page as well, I've come to realize that part of the problem is that both parties seem to consider the other side as composed of insincere, hopeless idealogues who are hell-bent on getting their POV across, policy and truth be damned. Now, contrarily, both sides consider themselves to be paragons of neutrality, holding the tide against the dark forces of (left- or right-wing, take your pick) fanatical propagandists. Sure, I'm using hyperbole here... but you know what? Reading some of the comments that you've all left on Talk: pages let's me realize that I'm not stretching the truth here by much. Now, I ask you, what's more likely? That both sides are right, that one side is right and the other wrong, or that both sides are being slightly melodramatic. I mean, this is Wikipedia... I cannot take seriously the assertion that any parties to this mediation are somehow engaged in a conspiracy to revise history and brainwash the masses through the subtle (or not so subtle) manipulation of Wikipedia articles. Thoughts?
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:07, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
I certainly do not think this of VV. Kevin Baas | talk 00:24, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
Further thoughts...
It seems that KB is focusing on this as more of a conduct dispute and VV is focusing on it as a content dispute. I see VV saying, "look, I'm trying to end up with a NPOV article and I'm willing to compromise". I see KB saying, "regardless of what you're trying to accomplish, your actions are unacceptable."
Is this a fair assessment? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:24, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Well, it's been a week, VV. Shall I give up waiting for the "more later" as referenced in your edit summary? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:26, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
It honestly seems to me as if all parties to this dispute are interested in an NPOV article. I don't see anyone attempting to "pull a fast one" and advance an agenda. That being said, this SHOULD be enough common ground for you all to come to some sort of agreement, not just on CONTENT, but on PROCESS. Laying all the rhetoric aside, none of you strike me as unreasonable to the extent that you cannot realize that value of coming together and reaching a positive conclusion to this issue. I mean, no one WANTS to fight. Everyone wants a better Wikipedia. Is anyone willing to offer some sort of olive brance? Would anyone care to suggest reasonable ways in which someone might make a first step towards reconciliation?
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:56, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
How about we all follow the wikipedia guidelines and policies? Kevin Baas | talk 19:12, 2004 Oct 29 (UTC)
I promise to faithfully follow the wikipedia guidelines and policies. Kevin Baas | talk 18:05, 2004 Nov 1 (UTC)
Well? Kb, are you willing to follow NPOV? How about you VV, willing to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:19, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
I'd asked if this was primarily a content dispute, but it seems that it's not.. at least from KB and Gzorn's POV. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:05, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Well, it's been over two weeks, I haven't heard from anyone, and all parties seem to be aggressively pursuing Arbitration. I'm declaring this mediation failed. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:36, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
Initial request and discussion at /Request
Well, now that we seem to have a forum that has been agreed to by all parties, I think we can proceed to the next step.
What I'd like from the parties involved is a concise declaration of the issue(s) that they see as in dispute and their requests for a resolution. In other words, what do you see wrong now, and what do you hope can be done about it? I'd like to think that everyone's above name-calling and those sort of shenanigans, so if you could all try to really be polite especially at this phase, I'd sure appreciate it.
Keep in mind that I don't have the background that any of you do in this situation, so any sort of subtlety or in-jokes or references to material that isn't present will be lost on me. I can't help you resolve this situation if I'm not presented with all of the information that you consider relevant.
So, a simple two or three line statement of your "problem" and a similar statement of your desired "solution" would be just peachy. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:35, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Kevin's analysis, but I would simply concentrate on the one hard point VeryVerily can't deny (and indeed has admitted above) - his violation of the three-revert rule. I have lately violated it myself simply because it wasn't enforced, especially against VeryVerily. But I will stop when he stops. So I ask him to join me in a pledge to respect the rule, except where third parties violate it first. Gzornenplatz 11:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
Very Verily 19:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've spent some time trying to sift through all of this.
I'd like to start off with this "3-revert rule". Now, as we all know, this "rule" is inconsistently enforced at best. It's more of a courtesy issue than anything. I understand that all parties are hesitant (and in this case, unwilling) to stay within the 3-revert rule themselves when they see others violating it.
That being said, I don't think we should continue to make an issue of the 3-revert rule in this case. First of all, parties on both sides seem to be "guilty" of it, so while that doesn't make it OK, it at least makes it equivalent. Secondly, since the rule isn't really enforced anyway, it doesn't seem that much could come of it. My recommendation is that all parties to this issue agree to abide by the 3-revert rule against each other, as relates to this dispute. Now, I'm not saying that you need to abide by the rule all the time, or even against each other in future disputes. I'm just suggesting that perhaps you can all agree that FOR THE CURRENT DISPUTE you will abide by the 3-revert rule. Now, the alternative to this (which is equally acceptable in my opinion) is for all of you to agree to ignore each others' violations of the 3-revert rule, again, for this dispute.
So, either all agree to cut it out, or all agree to stop calling each other on it.
Now, for the rest of the issues, it becomes more complicated. Whenever people complain about "rude" behavior and it's not something "obviously rude" (like "Fuck your mother" or something), there's always going to be two sides to the issue. So, I'm going to deal with the issues raised one by one, as I see the situation.
1) Good faith. Good faith means a lot of things. I don't see any clear cut edits that show that VV operates with a lack of good faith. His claim that he assumes good faith unless he has reason not to seems to pass muster. Now, there is, of course, room for disagreement as to what constitutes "unworthiness" of the assumption of good faith.
VV, I have known many people, some admins in fact, that are very short of good faith, you are not alone. That aside, I've never thought that it was a particularly good idea. I myself am guilty of lack of assumption of good faith in the past... I like to think that there were reasons for it, and that it was justified in the long run. The problem is, and I think you'll realize this, is that it can upset other users. Now, this isn't necessarily your concern, but you can't be surprised by it.
KB and Gzorn, there are good reasons sometimes to be suspect of users. While it's not very "nice", sometimes assuming that certain people are up to no good is, in fact, the proper course of action. I'm not saying that it's pleasant, or should be widespread, but it has it's place. I'd just like you to realize that its the kind of behavior that never will (nor should) disappear completely. That being said, it IS important to try and keep an open mind and assume good faith for as long as reasonable... key word there is reasonable.
Bottom line, this is a gray area, and I don't see anything so egregious that I would consider VV to be categorically operating without good faith.
2) Civility. I have a close friend who is just about the least tactful person on Earth. This person means absolutely no malice, but her comments can sometimes seem quite cutting and biting. Keep in mind, this is with spoken language and body language... and she never comes off as malicious. It's just that the phrasing can sometimes be a bit... blunt. Think how much more difficult it is to assign motivation to a person's words without body language or demeanor... without pacing of words. When you are just reading words on a page, it can be VERY difficult at times to diving a person's mental state unless a) they are clearly raving ("OMFG! YOU ASSHOLE!") or b) very precise in their word choice ("Let me be perfectly clear as to my meaning, I'm not saying you stink, I'm saying you SMELL... as in you have the ability to use your sense of smell"). Neither case makes up the majority of Talk on Wikipedia in my opinion.
VV, it always pays to be as civil as possible, which I'm sure you realize. While sarcasm is funny to many (myself included) some people have a hard time with it and view it as hurtful. That's just people... people are all different. You may want to try keeping in mind that not everyone has the same sense of humor as you. Not everyone can see into your thoughts and recognize your lack of malice. If you try and look at your words from the point of view of a third party, you may see that they sometimes look harsher than, perhaps, you intended.
KB and Gzorn, civility is a funny thing. My generation has a very different concept of civility than the one that came before it, and I daresay the one before that as well. Even within a generation, different cultures, people, genders, etc. will have different concepts of what is civil and appropriate. When you accuse someone of being uncivil, it is likely that the following is true... you are saying that if it were you doing it, it would be uncivil, because it violates your concept of civility. Please keep in mind that just because YOU consider it to be uncivil does not always mean it is intended that way. To be sure, there are cases when it is clear a person is ATTEMPTING to be uncivil, but there is always room to sit back, reflect, and try to consider that the way you are viewing words on a page may not be the same way that the person who put those words there views them.
3) Consensus. Consensus is sort of like a compromise between many individuals. Consensus is only possible amongst a group that is willing to compromise. Obviously, compromise isn't needed if all parties are in agreement, but then, that's consensus right there. The fine line part of this issue is whether or not consensus needs to be complete. In other words, what if most people DO agree, but one doesn't? What if a few people agree but some don't?
VV, woe betide those who make statements that come back to haunt them. :) It seeems that your statement about "no consensus if I disagree" is just such a statement. Since we all make them from time to time, it's no big deal, and doesn't indicate any failure on your part any greater than the rest of us. Of course, it's always best to try to be as specific as possible in order to avoid misunderstandings.
KB and Gzorn, I read VV's comment differently than you do. To consider it a requirement that all decisions pass some sort of VV-test seems rather uncharitable. It seems to me to be a direct statement of fact, that as long as strong dissent exists, consensus hasn't been achieved. Note that this is different than working towards or against consensus. From the context of the Talk pages referenced, I see VV willing to compromise. It's worth noting that I also see you willing to compromise. I don't understand, then, why individuals who seem to be willing to compromise cannot... I am guessing that this is part of the "whole lot of history" alluded to above.
Bottom line, I think that perhaps there's more to this dispute than the recent edits regarding George Bush, et al. because I can't see the reason for the rancor between the parties based on the above links.
4) POV. I'll deal with this quickly, because it seems to me to be a simple issue (I apologize if I have misanalyzed the situation).
Inserting POV itself is not a problem, it's non-sourced POV and unbalanced POV that's the issue. NPOV is not NoPointOfView, it's NeutralPointOfView, which requires reasonable attention to all sides of an issue and proper attribution of POV to its source.
5) Excision/Censorship. Frankly, I don't see VV's guilt here. Perhaps I'm not reading the edit histories carefully enough, but I don't see this. If you want to link me to history diffs, I'll be more than happy to look at them, but I wasn't able to find anything on my own. (The diff you DID provide showed someone changing VV's edits, not vice versa) VV seems to have moved a significant chunk on W's military service to a separate article on the controversy, which isn't necessarily inappropriate. The other "deletions" that I see from the Sept. 9-10 timeframe were explained by VV on the Talk page as merely restorations of OTHER PEOPLES' edits. I have no reason to disbelieve this assertion, and I don't see that anyone else has questioned his veracity on this issue other than Mike Storm who gave no evidence other than a claim that it was "suspicious" given VV's supposed behavior elsewhere.
Well...
That took a long time to write, I must say. :) I'd like you all to respond to anything that you take issue with in my above missive. Let me know if you think I'm right/wrong/mistaken about any pertinent issues. Please be aware that I'm honestly trying here, but that there is a LOT of data and I still get the feeling that I haven't been made aware of all of it. That being said, at the moment I'm a little confused as to why it is (short of simple differences of opinions) why the two sides can't just come to some sort of compromise and hammer out details on each individual point of contention.
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
Dante, I have no confidence in the above assesment and analysis. (the long post directly beneath the horizontal break) Your assesment/analysis did not demonstrate to me a thorough and accurate understanding of the situation. Instead of listing my disagreements, I'll give you some information that will help you know how much relevant information there is; the scope, in the broadest sense.
You haven't answered my question as to whether it's okay to put links to RFC's on here. Let me give you a better sense of things:
This is by no means all-encompassing. The majority of users who have privately expressed irritation have not filed or endorsed requests. More pages are involved than are listed. Issues date back past the earliest date listed in the cited material. Kevin Baas | talk 19:00, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)
One more thing: Gz initially filed this request. I don't want to hold up the process that he is concerned with against his will. Kevin Baas | talk 20:22, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)
VV, I have received replies from both Gzorn and KB regarding my initial analysis, but (other than your short comment of appreciation) nothing from you. It will be difficult for me to facilitate communication between all parties if I do not know your opinion on my take of things.
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:27, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
:It has now been (roughly) 5 days since VV last posted to this page. Given that he has posted numerous times to the Wikipedia in the interim, I cannot conclude that this conversation has gone unnoticed. Therefore, at 22:44, 21 Oct 2004 (precisely one week after his above comment) I will declare this mediation dead if further progress has not been made before that time. I will then personally forward this issue in its entirety to the Arbitration Committee. --
Dante Alighieri |
Talk 22:41, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
As I've been reading the relevant talk pages and this page as well, I've come to realize that part of the problem is that both parties seem to consider the other side as composed of insincere, hopeless idealogues who are hell-bent on getting their POV across, policy and truth be damned. Now, contrarily, both sides consider themselves to be paragons of neutrality, holding the tide against the dark forces of (left- or right-wing, take your pick) fanatical propagandists. Sure, I'm using hyperbole here... but you know what? Reading some of the comments that you've all left on Talk: pages let's me realize that I'm not stretching the truth here by much. Now, I ask you, what's more likely? That both sides are right, that one side is right and the other wrong, or that both sides are being slightly melodramatic. I mean, this is Wikipedia... I cannot take seriously the assertion that any parties to this mediation are somehow engaged in a conspiracy to revise history and brainwash the masses through the subtle (or not so subtle) manipulation of Wikipedia articles. Thoughts?
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:07, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
I certainly do not think this of VV. Kevin Baas | talk 00:24, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
Further thoughts...
It seems that KB is focusing on this as more of a conduct dispute and VV is focusing on it as a content dispute. I see VV saying, "look, I'm trying to end up with a NPOV article and I'm willing to compromise". I see KB saying, "regardless of what you're trying to accomplish, your actions are unacceptable."
Is this a fair assessment? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:24, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Well, it's been a week, VV. Shall I give up waiting for the "more later" as referenced in your edit summary? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:26, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
It honestly seems to me as if all parties to this dispute are interested in an NPOV article. I don't see anyone attempting to "pull a fast one" and advance an agenda. That being said, this SHOULD be enough common ground for you all to come to some sort of agreement, not just on CONTENT, but on PROCESS. Laying all the rhetoric aside, none of you strike me as unreasonable to the extent that you cannot realize that value of coming together and reaching a positive conclusion to this issue. I mean, no one WANTS to fight. Everyone wants a better Wikipedia. Is anyone willing to offer some sort of olive brance? Would anyone care to suggest reasonable ways in which someone might make a first step towards reconciliation?
-- Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:56, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
How about we all follow the wikipedia guidelines and policies? Kevin Baas | talk 19:12, 2004 Oct 29 (UTC)
I promise to faithfully follow the wikipedia guidelines and policies. Kevin Baas | talk 18:05, 2004 Nov 1 (UTC)
Well? Kb, are you willing to follow NPOV? How about you VV, willing to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:19, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
I'd asked if this was primarily a content dispute, but it seems that it's not.. at least from KB and Gzorn's POV. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:05, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Well, it's been over two weeks, I haven't heard from anyone, and all parties seem to be aggressively pursuing Arbitration. I'm declaring this mediation failed. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:36, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)