This page is currently inactive and is retained for historical reference. The discussion may be redundant to Wikipedia:WikiProject Dispute Resolution and that project's subsidiary projects. It was last substantively updated May 2011. |
Dear all, I note this RfC still appears to be open (after three months) so will post here. I have a series of structured questions that would be good to get agree/disagree answers to see if there is anything that needs fixing or streamlining. If the consensus is to remain as is, then please note this below.
My impression is that if one looks at Wikipedia:DR#Seeking_preliminary_advice_and_feedback_to_resolve_the_dispute and Wikipedia:DR#Resolving_content_disputes and Wikipedia:DR#Resolving_user_conduct_disputes is that there are a lot of venues for helpful editors and admins to cover. I do wonder whether fewer boards would mean more eyes on each. Hence I wonder if it is worth streamlining or seeing if we need to shift emphasis or scope of any. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 03:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Thus first question is, do we have too many noticeboards?
Are there any noticeboards whose scope is similar enough or reduplicated to warrant consideration of a merge? If so, list candidates below. Note that some boards may be split between more than one other board or merged or whatever.
Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard seems a candidate for merger. It looks rather underused, and users could be directed to either WP:FEED or some other Editor Assistance type of venue (eg WP:NCHP), plus WT:N. Rd232 talk 04:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
How about Wikipedia:Content noticeboard? Maybe it should be marked as historical? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 04:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Let's do a massive reorg. with something like what follows.
Section 1: Content Questions
Section 2: Disputes
This seems straightforward. A three step heiratchy for all dispute resolution, and a system of specialized noticeboards for questions. Note that VP would remain unchaneged, and other areas may or may not become redundant with this, (in which case a merge is in order.)
Basic organizational theory states that if I have a set number of units of time I am willing to spend on dispute resolution or noticeboards, the number I spend at one board increases as the number of boards I watch decreases. If all dispute resolution is in thee places, and the level of sevarity dictates the board, we'll get more involvement and more eyes watching. If noticeboards aren't redundant, their scope is clear, and they're not sites for dispute resolution, they will function cleaner. Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 08:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Are there any boards that are problematic in how they function that need some modification to scope, process, policing or something else?
wrong place?
|
---|
Yes, possibly violating procedure and posting this in this wrong place. But this started as a WQA discussion. I'd appreciate slack on the issue. If you find it totally unacceptable, move it per WP:TPO. |
There is a perception that nothing good comes out of WQA. I believe the reasons for this include skewed sample and lack of appreciation for intangible benefits.
Consider two successive recent WQAs
Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Xeworlebi
Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Kintetsubuffalo, and
Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Xeworlebi. The former received two quick replies. The poster received calm, respectful advice and both parties appear to have moved on. The latter was a dramafest which bled over into ANI. So these two examples show 50% "success" rate but because the latter was more expansive in time, number of posts, and drama, it leaves a much bigger impression.
Additionally, I think perhaps ANI watches tend to notice the WQAs that end up at ANI more than those that don't, also tended towards a skewed view.
One of the objections raised at Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts_(3rd_nomination) was WQA is largely a matter of "waah, someone did X," and even when that person has done X... there's absolutely nothing to convince them not to do it again. This reflects a common attitude among WP editors and I think more so among WP admins. My response is, so what's wrong with someone did X? Sometimes the waaher justs needs support, just needs to know that not everyone on WP acts like a WP:DICK. Alternatively, waaher may just need an editor to explain that someone was referring to their edit and not the waaher personally. And sometimes the waaher has been abused repeatedly by someone and has been too demure/polite to raise a fuss.
The lack of diversity among wikipedia editors has been noted[ [1]]. I believe part of this is the frequently gruff manner of many editors and admins, and WQA has the potential to address this.
The seeming chaos at WQA reflects a lack of clarity / clear consensus as to what constitutes civil behavior. See Wikipedia:Incivility_blocks. This does not particularly bother me -- one of WPs strengths is an aversion to rigid definitions and the wiki-lawyering that follows. I just think this needs to be considered when evaluating the usefulness of WQA.
WQA should be designed to support a newbie editor running into civility conflict with someone. That means simple and encouraging. One of the problems that affects WQA is that, when longtime editors see the same annoying pattern occur over and over, the tendency is to stick another bullet at the top of the page. There are too many right now, but can't easily say which one should be removed. And the emphasis is wrong, anyway. (I'll work on it and propose on WQA talk page).
Of course, WQA should also support long time editors, too.
This WQA should not have been filed is usually the wrong thing to say, unless that particular editor has a history of bogus filings. The problem is, as also noted at Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts_(3rd_nomination), is the perception that the other party is required to or should reply to the WQA. Often, it's better if they don't and other editors address the issue. But if a fairly new editor is feeling slighted, they should be encouraged to post WQAs, and responding editors can then gently redirect them the right way. People should just read the directions at WP:DR, you might say. Again, that viewpoint is based on a certain personality type.
Currently, the biggest concern with WQA is lack of neutral editors. It's not an easy job to do well. I started a few years ago when I still wasted my time editing pop culture articles and there was a banner on top of my watchlist asking for help. In time, I found it's a place I'm comfortable working for about two months a year. (After that, start to get burnt out, ya know?)
And it works best when non-admins are the ones responding. Yes, I know, admins are just editors with a few extra privileges. Well, that's bullshit. There's a caste system at WP ... IP editors get treated like shit and adminship is considered by a small positive fraction of admins as being all that. (Apologies to the many very cool admins out there. I know who you are and greatly appreciate your efforts. But many of your brethren are douchebags). When an admin starts weighing in, When an editor with admin privileges starts responding in "admin" mode, two bad things happen:
If something requires the admin hammer someone will refer it to ANI. (I understand in may be the case WQA is undermanned sufficiently that admins have to help carry the slack. But ideally that wouldn't be the case. If you have to post on WQA, at least try not to act like an admin).
On the other hand, when someone disses someone on ANI, don't say file a WQA. That nevers works. We succeed at WQA (when we do) by de-escalation. Once trash talking has started at ANI, it's already beyond WQA scope. Gerardw ( talk) 15:07, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Recently there's been a spate of drama over closing WQAs. In the end, MiszBot always gets the WP:LASTWORD. While marking a WQA makes things more convenient for newly arriving reviewers, there shouldn't be a rush to close a WQA ... if you think there's nothing more to say, don't say anything more. Try to force a close just generates unnecessary drama. Gerardw ( talk) 16:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
If you look at first sentence of this thread it links to a discussion whose main point is "Carcharoth made a suggestion on ANI the other day: administrators should be more willing to sanction people for NPOV violations." This has been a long time campaign of some editors.
They have now succeeded in the case of Noleander who is now forbidden to write on Jews and Judaism related issues not because of behavioral issues but because of his/her pattern of editing. (See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Noleander and notice on editor's talk page. I was only familiar with Noleander's editing on two articles on Jews and media, the first which seemed a bit questionable, but the second which was largely supported by those who evidently liked the numerous examples of bashing those who spoke on the topic. Looking at other articles, it's obvious Noleander did have an obsession with documenting conspiracy theories in such a way as to promote them, so I can see the problem.
I can think of another case where I wholeheartedly supported topic banning an editor pushing some nutty economic theories. And there have been problems with obvious COI editing for various organizations/personalities. I don't know how many other obvious cases like that there have been.
But the issue always is the slippery slope from topic banning obvious extreme bias (especially when joined with bad behavior) to having ideological partisans going after people who edit mostly in one or two subject areas, perhaps with a minority viewpoint or a view unpopular among better organized Wikipedia editors who will claim POV issues even when the person adds mostly good information and mostly is on their best behavior on talk pages, etc. This is of course a special problem in the Israel-Palestine issue and partisans of that issue have been in the forefront of promoting such topic banning. But it could become an issue in many areas of controversial editing. I know I have decided to unwatch a few controversial articles just so I don't get myself drawn into some of further no-win controversies against well-organized partisans and risk unfair sanctioning. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 16:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I do not trust myself or any other admin to give sanctions for NPOV on our own authority, without some degree of community agreement. My experience is that if you understand a subject well enough to judge npov, you will inevitable support one side or other. If you started out with no involvement or knowledge at all, by the time you are ready to take action you will surely have developed a pov.. DGG ( talk ) 16:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
/Overview - 20:22, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The scope of our dispute resolution structure is too broad. Wikipedia:Dispute resolution consists of two types of dispute-resolution: 1) methods and forums for the resolution of content disputes, such as mediation and third-opinion; and 2) methods and forums for settling grievances between one editor and another, such as user-conduct RFCs and arbitration. I recently re-wrote WP:DR so that it segregated the two types of dispute resolution, but this tendency to amalgamate everything into an umbrella process of "dispute resolution" is systemic and something we might want to think about later. AGK [ • 22:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Ok for starters, looking at Wikipedia:Third opinion, this is a nice idea but rather nebulous, surely a merger - identifying interpersonal disputes to either WQA or mediation, and content disputes for an RfC on the appropriate article (or wiki) talk page (which is in essence a third, fourth etc. opinion anyway)? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 14:40, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
And Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard - I suspect the best targets are specific wikiprojects (for article notability) or reliable sources noticeboard, which is what notability is intimately linked with (RS's)....? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 14:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
These are all excellent points. I agree especially with the suggestion that the boundary is blurred in our DR venues, and that not many noticeboards or process can adequately address situations routed in problems with conduct and content. We could create a subpage that takes an overview of what our current processes are, and, moving on, what venues we could merge, delete, or split. AGK [ • 18:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
This page is currently inactive and is retained for historical reference. The discussion may be redundant to Wikipedia:WikiProject Dispute Resolution and that project's subsidiary projects. It was last substantively updated May 2011. |
Dear all, I note this RfC still appears to be open (after three months) so will post here. I have a series of structured questions that would be good to get agree/disagree answers to see if there is anything that needs fixing or streamlining. If the consensus is to remain as is, then please note this below.
My impression is that if one looks at Wikipedia:DR#Seeking_preliminary_advice_and_feedback_to_resolve_the_dispute and Wikipedia:DR#Resolving_content_disputes and Wikipedia:DR#Resolving_user_conduct_disputes is that there are a lot of venues for helpful editors and admins to cover. I do wonder whether fewer boards would mean more eyes on each. Hence I wonder if it is worth streamlining or seeing if we need to shift emphasis or scope of any. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 03:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Thus first question is, do we have too many noticeboards?
Are there any noticeboards whose scope is similar enough or reduplicated to warrant consideration of a merge? If so, list candidates below. Note that some boards may be split between more than one other board or merged or whatever.
Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard seems a candidate for merger. It looks rather underused, and users could be directed to either WP:FEED or some other Editor Assistance type of venue (eg WP:NCHP), plus WT:N. Rd232 talk 04:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
How about Wikipedia:Content noticeboard? Maybe it should be marked as historical? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 04:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Let's do a massive reorg. with something like what follows.
Section 1: Content Questions
Section 2: Disputes
This seems straightforward. A three step heiratchy for all dispute resolution, and a system of specialized noticeboards for questions. Note that VP would remain unchaneged, and other areas may or may not become redundant with this, (in which case a merge is in order.)
Basic organizational theory states that if I have a set number of units of time I am willing to spend on dispute resolution or noticeboards, the number I spend at one board increases as the number of boards I watch decreases. If all dispute resolution is in thee places, and the level of sevarity dictates the board, we'll get more involvement and more eyes watching. If noticeboards aren't redundant, their scope is clear, and they're not sites for dispute resolution, they will function cleaner. Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 08:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Are there any boards that are problematic in how they function that need some modification to scope, process, policing or something else?
wrong place?
|
---|
Yes, possibly violating procedure and posting this in this wrong place. But this started as a WQA discussion. I'd appreciate slack on the issue. If you find it totally unacceptable, move it per WP:TPO. |
There is a perception that nothing good comes out of WQA. I believe the reasons for this include skewed sample and lack of appreciation for intangible benefits.
Consider two successive recent WQAs
Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Xeworlebi
Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Kintetsubuffalo, and
Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Xeworlebi. The former received two quick replies. The poster received calm, respectful advice and both parties appear to have moved on. The latter was a dramafest which bled over into ANI. So these two examples show 50% "success" rate but because the latter was more expansive in time, number of posts, and drama, it leaves a much bigger impression.
Additionally, I think perhaps ANI watches tend to notice the WQAs that end up at ANI more than those that don't, also tended towards a skewed view.
One of the objections raised at Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts_(3rd_nomination) was WQA is largely a matter of "waah, someone did X," and even when that person has done X... there's absolutely nothing to convince them not to do it again. This reflects a common attitude among WP editors and I think more so among WP admins. My response is, so what's wrong with someone did X? Sometimes the waaher justs needs support, just needs to know that not everyone on WP acts like a WP:DICK. Alternatively, waaher may just need an editor to explain that someone was referring to their edit and not the waaher personally. And sometimes the waaher has been abused repeatedly by someone and has been too demure/polite to raise a fuss.
The lack of diversity among wikipedia editors has been noted[ [1]]. I believe part of this is the frequently gruff manner of many editors and admins, and WQA has the potential to address this.
The seeming chaos at WQA reflects a lack of clarity / clear consensus as to what constitutes civil behavior. See Wikipedia:Incivility_blocks. This does not particularly bother me -- one of WPs strengths is an aversion to rigid definitions and the wiki-lawyering that follows. I just think this needs to be considered when evaluating the usefulness of WQA.
WQA should be designed to support a newbie editor running into civility conflict with someone. That means simple and encouraging. One of the problems that affects WQA is that, when longtime editors see the same annoying pattern occur over and over, the tendency is to stick another bullet at the top of the page. There are too many right now, but can't easily say which one should be removed. And the emphasis is wrong, anyway. (I'll work on it and propose on WQA talk page).
Of course, WQA should also support long time editors, too.
This WQA should not have been filed is usually the wrong thing to say, unless that particular editor has a history of bogus filings. The problem is, as also noted at Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts_(3rd_nomination), is the perception that the other party is required to or should reply to the WQA. Often, it's better if they don't and other editors address the issue. But if a fairly new editor is feeling slighted, they should be encouraged to post WQAs, and responding editors can then gently redirect them the right way. People should just read the directions at WP:DR, you might say. Again, that viewpoint is based on a certain personality type.
Currently, the biggest concern with WQA is lack of neutral editors. It's not an easy job to do well. I started a few years ago when I still wasted my time editing pop culture articles and there was a banner on top of my watchlist asking for help. In time, I found it's a place I'm comfortable working for about two months a year. (After that, start to get burnt out, ya know?)
And it works best when non-admins are the ones responding. Yes, I know, admins are just editors with a few extra privileges. Well, that's bullshit. There's a caste system at WP ... IP editors get treated like shit and adminship is considered by a small positive fraction of admins as being all that. (Apologies to the many very cool admins out there. I know who you are and greatly appreciate your efforts. But many of your brethren are douchebags). When an admin starts weighing in, When an editor with admin privileges starts responding in "admin" mode, two bad things happen:
If something requires the admin hammer someone will refer it to ANI. (I understand in may be the case WQA is undermanned sufficiently that admins have to help carry the slack. But ideally that wouldn't be the case. If you have to post on WQA, at least try not to act like an admin).
On the other hand, when someone disses someone on ANI, don't say file a WQA. That nevers works. We succeed at WQA (when we do) by de-escalation. Once trash talking has started at ANI, it's already beyond WQA scope. Gerardw ( talk) 15:07, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Recently there's been a spate of drama over closing WQAs. In the end, MiszBot always gets the WP:LASTWORD. While marking a WQA makes things more convenient for newly arriving reviewers, there shouldn't be a rush to close a WQA ... if you think there's nothing more to say, don't say anything more. Try to force a close just generates unnecessary drama. Gerardw ( talk) 16:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
If you look at first sentence of this thread it links to a discussion whose main point is "Carcharoth made a suggestion on ANI the other day: administrators should be more willing to sanction people for NPOV violations." This has been a long time campaign of some editors.
They have now succeeded in the case of Noleander who is now forbidden to write on Jews and Judaism related issues not because of behavioral issues but because of his/her pattern of editing. (See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Noleander and notice on editor's talk page. I was only familiar with Noleander's editing on two articles on Jews and media, the first which seemed a bit questionable, but the second which was largely supported by those who evidently liked the numerous examples of bashing those who spoke on the topic. Looking at other articles, it's obvious Noleander did have an obsession with documenting conspiracy theories in such a way as to promote them, so I can see the problem.
I can think of another case where I wholeheartedly supported topic banning an editor pushing some nutty economic theories. And there have been problems with obvious COI editing for various organizations/personalities. I don't know how many other obvious cases like that there have been.
But the issue always is the slippery slope from topic banning obvious extreme bias (especially when joined with bad behavior) to having ideological partisans going after people who edit mostly in one or two subject areas, perhaps with a minority viewpoint or a view unpopular among better organized Wikipedia editors who will claim POV issues even when the person adds mostly good information and mostly is on their best behavior on talk pages, etc. This is of course a special problem in the Israel-Palestine issue and partisans of that issue have been in the forefront of promoting such topic banning. But it could become an issue in many areas of controversial editing. I know I have decided to unwatch a few controversial articles just so I don't get myself drawn into some of further no-win controversies against well-organized partisans and risk unfair sanctioning. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 16:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I do not trust myself or any other admin to give sanctions for NPOV on our own authority, without some degree of community agreement. My experience is that if you understand a subject well enough to judge npov, you will inevitable support one side or other. If you started out with no involvement or knowledge at all, by the time you are ready to take action you will surely have developed a pov.. DGG ( talk ) 16:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
/Overview - 20:22, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The scope of our dispute resolution structure is too broad. Wikipedia:Dispute resolution consists of two types of dispute-resolution: 1) methods and forums for the resolution of content disputes, such as mediation and third-opinion; and 2) methods and forums for settling grievances between one editor and another, such as user-conduct RFCs and arbitration. I recently re-wrote WP:DR so that it segregated the two types of dispute resolution, but this tendency to amalgamate everything into an umbrella process of "dispute resolution" is systemic and something we might want to think about later. AGK [ • 22:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Ok for starters, looking at Wikipedia:Third opinion, this is a nice idea but rather nebulous, surely a merger - identifying interpersonal disputes to either WQA or mediation, and content disputes for an RfC on the appropriate article (or wiki) talk page (which is in essence a third, fourth etc. opinion anyway)? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 14:40, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
And Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard - I suspect the best targets are specific wikiprojects (for article notability) or reliable sources noticeboard, which is what notability is intimately linked with (RS's)....? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 14:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
These are all excellent points. I agree especially with the suggestion that the boundary is blurred in our DR venues, and that not many noticeboards or process can adequately address situations routed in problems with conduct and content. We could create a subpage that takes an overview of what our current processes are, and, moving on, what venues we could merge, delete, or split. AGK [ • 18:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)