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This was first raised at WP:AN#Back_off_the_Hammer, the following section is copied from there:
TenPoundHammer (
talk ·
contribs) is well-known for his huge count of edits. Most of these Many of theseIncorrect claim that didn't recognise his article contributions to country music, withdrawn. are deletions: either blocks of content, or articles. The article deletions are getting out of hand and are based on an increasingly dubious interpretation of policy. This post is as a result of
this
WP:CSD#G1
List of most highly populated countries, a 30k article with > 60 references. I make no comment on the quality, suitability or future deletion of this article - which is now at AfD. In fact, I've past history with the article's creator (this is how I saw the speedy notice) and I've called for many of their additions to be deleted on quality grounds myself. What is clear though is that articles of this size, on ostensibly appropriate topics, are not suitable for speedy deletion. They're just too complicated to judge so expeditiously. In this case, it's not only a speedy but a G1 as "patent nonsense". To quote the last summary point of that rationale, "In short, if you can understand it, G1 does not apply." There is no way that G1 can be applied to this article, even if we choose to delete it very soon. Nor is this a new editor who might not understand such things.
This editor calls to delete what looks like an article a day. We have no limits on such, there is no good reason to have one - a valid deletion is a valid deletion. Yet looking at this vast list (which I admit, isn't easy) they're an unedifying stream of dubious judgement.
Does it matter? After all, the barrage of keeps for April Fool's Day shows the robustness of WP in action. Yes, it does matter - because for everything that happens openly at AfD, there are others like WP:Articles for deletion/Stained glass windows of St Pauls, Clifton that happen "under the hood" and invisibly. In this case, a speedy deletion was applied to an article already at AfD just hours after that AfD and with no time for any secondary discussion. Should that article have been kept? I would argue that its deletion was primarily WP:BITEy, where a new editor has created St Pauls, Clifton, Bristol (itself targeted for deletion) and because they created what should have been sections of an article as separate articles, these were deleted (and deleted rather than the rather more obvious merge). WMF tell us regularly that new editors should be encouraged, and this sort of response does nothing to encourage that. Incidentally, there are few Victorian churches in affluent areas that aren't notable, just on their architectural merits and the coverage that inevitably generates.
I'm bringing this to AN because RFC/U is both complex and toothless, but also because of the volumes involved. I consider that TenPoundHammer is acting outside of generally supportable behaviour, either through policy or consensus, and that because of the volume involved this requires a substantial and speedy response. Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC) reply
See paste above.
These are some recent (mid February to mid March 2012) deletion nominations I've all come across accidentally, I therefore believe this to be only the tip of the iceberg. — Ruud 14:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC) reply
{List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}
See the AfDs.
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}
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It's unfair to single out TenPoundHammer as being the only one who doesn't do enough research before immediately reaching for a deletion request template. There are other editors who are downright lazy in their approach to building an encyclopaedia, thinking themselves to be in some sort of supervisory rôle while Somebody Else actually does the writing work; and that their task is to hypocritically go around pointing out where nobody, not even they themselves, have bothered to do any work. Their approach is in the long run a far more damaging one than TenPoundHammer's here. This is where I do agree with Andy Dingley's desired outcome, very strongly. But I don't want to make TenPoundHammer a poster child for that, since I don't see TenPoundHammer in that group.
I have the general, and somewhat vague, impression that TenPoundHammer's problem is one of having good intentions but simply not knowing how best to put them into effect. The administrators' noticeboard won't solve this, administrator action won't solve this, and even this RFC won't solve this. What will solve this is TenPoundHammer getting to grips with things like how to find books that discuss particular subjects, how to use other encyclopaedias as clues to how subjects can be covered, and how to make intelligent use of search engines. That's an education and learning issue: expansion of TenPoundHammer's skill set to be a better researcher and writer. A large amount of people piling on at an RFC/U saying "Yes, here's another bad deletion nomination that I was involved in." is far less useful than a few people going to User talk:TenPoundHammer and pointing out all of the search tools that are listed in Template:Search for (examples over there ⇗) and giving some pointers on their use. (Here's one pointer from me: Observe that searches don't have to be for the article title.)
This section is reserved for the use of the user whose conduct is disputed. Users writing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section, and the person writing this section should not write a view below. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but no one except the editor(s) named in the dispute may change the summary here.
First of all, way to not tell me about this RFC/U THIRTEEN DAYS into its existence. I feel like you guys are doing some sort of cloak and dagger stuff behind my back.
Anyway, yes. Some of my AFDs and PRODs and such have been misfires. For instance, Wizard (band), I honestly did google the band name + a member's name. Somehow, the first search found nothing but personal blogs and other unreliable sources, but a second search did find a reputable review which I added — I even pointed out "okay, I screwed up in my googling, I'll recant on my AFD". And yet it seems some believe that I never concede when a contrary opinion outweighs my own. I have admitted many times that my AFDs were in the wrong, and either withdrawn, or just let it be since I know it's going to close as "keep".
On
Xargs, the reason I stubbed the article was because it had an arbitrary example farm and what looked to me like instructions on how to do something with it. Tell me why something like "Note that not all versions of xargs
supports the {}
syntax. In those cases you may specify a string after -I
that will be replaced" should be kept in an article — is that not a blatant instruction guide written in second person, two things that directly violate how a proper Wikipedia article should be written?
Several times, I have been frustrated in AFDs — people will come along and say "Keep, it's notable." and then the article gets snowball kept because everyone's saying "it's notable, sources exist", but they do nothing to improve it. All they do is insist that it's somebody else's problem and as a result, we all sit on our asses and nothing gets done.
Is my work sloppy? Maybe. But I have seen many AFDs where I nominate a dire-looking article, someone argues that it be kept and — here's the biggie — actually IMPROVES the damn thing with sources. Hmm. Maybe AFD is cleanup after all. I bet not a one of those articles that got Heymanned after an AFD would even have had the dust knocked off it had someone not sent it to AFD.
WP:BEFORE, as mentioned below, is not a friggin' policy. I make sure to always do a source check before I nominate anything for AFD, and it just happens that I don't always dig deep enough for stuff. Very little of what I've AFDed seemed worthy of any alternative to deletion except maybe Halifax, Nova Scotia. But again, at least the AFD got something DONE there instead of continuing the six years of hemming and hawing. How much longer did we need to spin our wheels on that one, anyway?
Also, "the current points-scoring amongst administrative wannabees where an opportunity to delete something is seen as an opportunity to do 'something' and rack up a scorecard of articles deleted". Where the flying HELL do you think that I am an "administrative wannabee [ sic]" anymore? I've not run for RFA in years because I honestly don't think I ever will be admin material.
And I love how you outright jump to conclusions that I nominate stuff for deletion just to make my e-penis bigger. As if I have a deletion fetish. As if I believe that I get some sort of prize for having the most successful AFDs. I don't. My main goal every time I AFD is "improve the wiki in some fashion". I know full well that not all of my discussions will be closed as "delete". That's not to say I'm abusing the AFD function as a sneaky way to get an article cleaned up. That simply happens to be a positive side effect that sometimes stems from my work. Sometimes. And it's not like I'm the only one who has ever made an AFD that had to be withdrawn or speedy kept.
tl;dr: I won't deny that my actions are somewhat blunt. But this whole RFC/U reeks of a witch hunt to me, brought on entirely by those who disagree with me in some fashion, and who are looking for only the negative side of my every move. I honestly feel that, even if I fluff an AFD or two or ten, I'm still doing far more help than harm.
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I think this RFC/U is well-intentioned, and it makes some good points. But it's also somewhat one-sided. For example, it does not mention that the editor has already acknowledged mistakes. More generally, these comments do not reflect the totality of the editor's contributions. I don't think it's literally true that "most" of the editor's comments are "deletions." If anything, most of his edits are additions to music articles. Also, the editor has created more than a thousand articles. I have found most of the editor's proposed deletions and comments in AfDs to be spot on. Here are a few recent examples. There are many, many more.
The bottom line is that I have no problem with these concerns being raised, and I hope that the editor finds the comments to be useful. I make my own comments here in an effort to balance out the RFC/U.
Logical Cowboy ( talk) 17:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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There is a basic problem with point two of the "desired outcome" section, in that it expresses a desire for a community-wide change, which is outside the scope of a discussion of a single user. Suggest that point 2 be struck.
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I have closed and commented in many AfDs, and I do not recall TenPoundHammer's opinions or nominations as particularly problematic. I am unimpressed by the vague nature of the problems alleged (and evidence submitted) in this RfC, and they do not convince me that they warrant an examination of the editor's conduct. In the evidence, the only edit that is clearly problematic is the faulty CSD nomination of List of most highly populated countries as {{ db-nonsense}}. As to the alleged violations of WP:BEFORE, the evidence does not make clear, and it is not immediately apparent, how this step of the deletion process is supposed to have been violated in these cases. This also applies to the PROD. As to the template deletion nominations, the discussions apparently resulted in no consensus, so it is not clear why the repeated nominations are considered particularly disruptive in and of themselves. (I'm not saying that there might not be problems here, just that the RfC does a poor job of convincing me that there are.)
More generally, WP:BEFORE is not on a page that is labeled as a policy or guideline, and expecting deletion nominators to conduct a thorough search for sources beyond those cited in the article conflicts with the policy-based principle of WP:V, and specifically WP:BURDEN, that it is those who write or want to retain content who are responsible for finding and citing sources. On these grounds, I do not think that it is objectionable to nominate for deletion articles that do not establish their subject's notability without conducting a prior search for sources that goes beyond an initial Google search. Conducting detailed research is the responsibility of those who write or want to retain the article. Sandstein 10:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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The whole thing about the PROD of the Wizard article being deceptive is nonsense. The accusation that it was used for "sneaking stuff past a proper AFD" is obviously an assumption of bad faith. TPH is certainly aware that a PROD can be removed by any user at any time, so if there was any doubt that is what would happen, and what did in fact happen.
And then we see the AFD, which the certifiers are holding forth as an attempt to resolve this issue. What I see there is an AFD where the certifiers immediately began attacking the user making the nomination rather than limiting their comments to the subject under discussion. And then we see User:Warden, who is probably one of the most extremist inclusionist, coming to TPHs defense, so I'm having trouble seeing that incident as evidence of rabid, bad-faith deletionism as the certifiers would have us believe.
Rudd's post to TPH's talk page, also given as evidence of trying to resolve this issue, is so utterly condescending and dripping with accusations of bad faith that TPH should be commended, not censured, for just ignoring it.
Whenever one opens a discussion like this, they should be aware of WP:BOOMERANG. The behavior exhibited at and around the Wizard AFD is disgraceful, and using it as an example of supposed attempts at dispute resolution is about as ineffective a strategy to convince others as I can imagine.
And of course going to an admin board with a sarcastic attack on another user (back off the hammer? seriously?) cannot be regarded as serious attempt at dispute resolution but rather as an attempt to evoke an emotional response and get some sort of sanction on TPH.
As to the broader issue this shabby collection of evidence is supposedly trying to address, as others have mentioned, WP:BEFORE is advice, while WP:BURDEN is a subsection of WP:V, one of the five pillars of Wikipedia, so if we're going to get in a "my policy is bigger than yours" contest it's pretty obvious which side that would come down on. BEFORE is increasingly used like a blunt object in deletion discussions to disparage the opinions and efforts of anyone who dares to comment that maybe we should delete articles with poor sourcing. Beeblebrox ( talk) 18:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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I really hate RfCs with support and no comment/oppose sections. It (a) facilitates (to me) the impression of talking past not to others with opposing points of view, and (b) gives no idea of consensus - do the lack of supports mean neutrals, conditional supports or opposes?
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Mu:
Ten Pound Hammer has been a fixture in deletion discussions for years. He should be exemplifying best practices in ways that we do not expect newbies to. Instead, what this series of concerns demonstrates is disregard for best practices: Contra Sandstein, it really makes no difference what WP:BEFORE is labeled, because editors who have participated in the area for as long as TPH has have generally developed an intrinsic understanding of its expectations and both follow them and describe how they do so in their nominations. Instead of an elder statesman, TPH comes across little different than a newbie, misquoting WP:IINFO (see my links above), and then, unlike a true newbie, failing to respond to advice and incorporate it into future nominations. Inclusionists who misquote relevant guidelines in deletion discussions are roundly taken to task for misconstruing those guidelines, and properly so. Turnabout is fair play, and TPH needs to demonstrate appropriate care in his nominations. If the atmosphere at AfD is to improve, then all long-term participants need to behave well and lead by example, engaging in the best interests of the encyclopedia, not deceptively or inaccurately citing policies and guidelines in an attempt to bias the outcome of a deletion discussion. TPH should know better, and should be encouraged to participate scrupulously in the future or face additional scrutiny and possibly consequences if he declines to follow best practices after being advised to do so in this RfC/U. Jclemens ( talk) 23:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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I somehow feel a close personal connection to TenPoundHammer, probably because he busted my balls over nothing not once but twice at ANI (ostensibly because of my self-proclaimed inclusionism and his committed deletionism). Yet, despite that, and despite being on opposite sides of more than a few deletion debates over the subsequent last couple years, I think we've gained at least a grudging respect for one another. This RfC is utterly improper, to my mind, and should be immediately closed. There is no evidence that Mr. Hammer has been abusive of Guidelines in his nominations, there is no evidence that he has been disruptive in intent. He does not misuse automated tools to shotgun nominations in a lazy manner. He is an individual who draws inclusion boundaries a bit more stringently than the majority of Wikipedians. I think he and others like him at AfD are a perfect counterbalance to Article Rescue Squad, who scramble to source out pieces and save them from deletion attacks — a yin and yang, if you will, or if you prefer dialectics to eastern philosophy: a struggle of opposites from which synthesis emerges. Certainly, some of Mr. Hammer's nominations are a bit sketchy. Still, it is good that he is there to call people on their marginal sourcing and to challenge their fuzzy logic in debates. What is the intent here — to burn the guy for believing what he believes? That's bogus. I disagree with the man, but I'll defend his right to bring the AfD challenges he believes necessary. Carrite ( talk) 00:24, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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Comments:
TPH seems to understand that he's not very good at this stuff and it is commendable that this does not discourage him to the point of giving up completely. But the flip side of this doggedness seems to be that he often seems too stubborn and ornery. Typical behaviour patterns seem to include escalating straight to AFD if a PROD is removed or repeating an AFD if the article is not deleted the first time around. And, if an article is improved by other editors in the course of these repeated attempts to delete, TPH seems to want to take the credit for this improvement, even though he did nothing to help.
As TPH is weak at searching for sources and improving articles, he should please show more willingness to accept the opinion of other experienced editors that improvement is feasible. In particular, if a PROD is removed by an experienced editor, he should engage in local discussion at the article rather than escalating immediately to AFD. By engaging with other experienced editors in a collegiate way rather than a confrontational way, he may pick up some tips and the overall process is more likely to go smoothly.
Warden ( talk) 20:07, 18 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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I think this unfairly focuses on User:TenPoundHammer. None of the links provided are particularly troubling. TPH shouldn't be sanctioned for breaking rules that aren't written. Instead of focusing on a single editor, I think a policy discussion is required. Most likely, WP:BEFORE needs to be prescriptively written as required practice. Or a subset of WP:BEFORE, and probably prescriptive to longterm contributors in deletion, so as to not bite newcomers.
This RFC should be closed, with Desired outcome 2 spun into a new discussion, such as converting WP:BEFORE into a new policy. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 03:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC) reply
Comments:
Response to TPH's response above
TPH’s response above rings true to me, and as I said already, this RFC/U is misdirected. There is a problem with the ease Twinkle AfD nominations, and the lack of formal requirements for deletion nominations, but the solution is not to focus on a single editor. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 05:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC) reply
See also my links at #Other attempts, perhaps helping to demonstrate that this is not just a recent problem, but a long-term one.
I know TenPoundHammer's edits fairly well, but putting together selective diffs for an RfC about him is very difficult given that he has well over 150,000 edits. I have a vague impression that while he has had some improvement over the years in some areas of deletion (such as less frequent faulty CSDs), in other areas things have been about the same (his AfD nominations and rationales) while some problems have worsened (his frustrations [20] becoming apparent in near-attacks and sarcastic comments in AfDs).
One part of the #Statement of the dispute I disagree with is that "most" of his edits are deletions. TenPoundHammer's main focus is on building content, mostly of country music articles. He does very well when he is building those articles. He is much more likely to get into trouble when he focuses on deletions. It's part of what I see as a larger issue of his impatience (or at least what comes across as impatience).
He gets impatient about poor sourcing in articles [21], and that seems a part of what drives his deletion work. He has been warned repeatedly about civility [22] [23] but the problems continue, and even this week his frustrations spill over into AfD discussions: [24] [25] And he is still yelling in edit summaries: [26] [27] and using other strange edit summaries: [28]
We don't want to lose TPH as an editor. What are potential solutions here? He has already tried slowing his pace and other tactics [29], but that does not appear to be enough. The difficulties have persisted for years despite years of feedback. Oddly enough, I think TPH himself identified what might be needed, a long time ago: [30] Staying clear of deletion work and focusing instead on his very good content building.
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TPH has done great work with clearing out
WP:CRYSTAL future albums. And I don't have a problem with a few errors, either of fingers or of judgement. I do see a pattern of "what else needs to go" - not just with TPH but with many editors, and it makes sense, of course, to batch work, and get speedies out of the way quickly. This does lead to a systemic deletionism which needs to be guarded against - notably deletes instead of merges, which are taken to support one another - for example albums are deleted, the artist follows because he has no "notable" albums, the record label has no notable artists and gets deleted, etc... Deletion should be coralled within the boundaries of policy, well within, doubt should mean "keep" or "keep for now" or "merge" or "let someoen else do it". Only then will we be able to see if policy works when applied, and make improvements.
Rich
Farmbrough,
11:39, 30 March 2012 (UTC).
reply
On April 1, 2012, I noticed a number of XfD nominations by Ten Pound Hammer that I do consider to be frivolous and disruptive, namely, a number of nominations of articles and other pages for which clearly no reason for deletion exists. These include Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nyan Cat, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Backwards, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tautology (rhetoric) (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Jimbo Wales (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 April 1, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion (3rd nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Don't delete the main page and this. I understand that these were meant to be jokes, but nonetheless they disrupted the articles (readers see the AfD tags) and (especially in this quantity) they disrupted Wikipedia's deletion process, which is intended to be a venue for improving the encyclopedia rather than for attempts at humor. Sandstein 18:38, 1 April 2012 (UTC) reply
I would like to float the idea of imposing editing restrictions on TenPoundHammer.
I suggest that restrictions be temporary (24 hours) and escalating (one week, two months, one year) if he continues his behavior.
I propose that the restrictions consist of a ban on tagging any page for proposed deletion or speedy deletion, listing any page at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, merging articles, blanking, or in any other way deleting articles, broadly construed. He should be free to suggest deletions or merges on article or user talk pages.
If I understand the rules correctly, this would require that this be proposed to the arbitration committee. I am not suggesting that this be done at this time. I am only testing the waters to see if there is a consensus for imposing editing restrictions. Needless to say, the actions and numbers above are just what I pulled out of my hat; feel free to suggest other solutions. Suggestion withdrawn: the consensus is clearly against asking arbcom to impose editing restrictions. --
Guy Macon (
talk)
23:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
reply
New View by Guy Macon:
In the response section, TPH writes "On Xargs, the reason I stubbed the article was because it had an arbitrary example farm..." This completely ignores what pretty much everyone who has looked at it is saying, both here and during the AfD. The complaint is not about him stubbing the article. The complaint is that he nominated it for deletion [31] with the rationale "Deprodded with primary source. Doesn't seem individually notable. Couldn't find any real sources." All I had to do was to type the word xargs into Google and I found three excellent sources that demonstrate notability. On the first page. This stretches the assumption of good faith to the breaking point. I can see no other explanation other than TPH writing that without bothering to look for a source. And that is a problem. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 23:09, 3 April 2012 (UTC) reply
After looking through the list graciously provided by Edgepedia below, out of 28 I count 5 "bad" noms ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of April Fool's Day jokes (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Carnatic instrumentalists (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of games with concealed rules, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of country performers by era, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/They Will Have Their Way), where the consensus was overwhelmingly "keep" and there was very little to no support for deletion/merger/redirect. An additional 4 of these noms seem to have been made on the behalf of other editors who pressed the wrong buttons. So, an error rate of ~20%. Yes, that's probably a bit high. I think the takeaway from this, TPH, is that Wikipedia likes lists a lot more than you do, so think extra hard when nomming them. (Wikipedia likes footballers much more than I do, so I try not to look too hard at those articles; we all have to make compromises to work together, no?)
You also seem to have a bit of a problem badgering "keep" voters. (I don't think this edit can be construed as anything other than losing your shit completely.) So, um... stop that. I frankly don't know how else to put it. Danger High voltage! 21:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC) reply
From "Evidence of disputed behavior": "War on templates (WP:DISRUPTIVE) Nominating {{cleanup}} over and over again: January 11, June 2011, another attempt at DRV, February 2012".
Renominating after more than six months is nothing wrong and resulted in a successful RFC that may fix part of the problems listed in TfD nom. I see nothing that may be called disruptive. Bulwersator ( talk) 00:07, 9 April 2012 (UTC) reply
Can't think of anywhere else to put this...
I think some people are getting out of hand with what they do to me. For instance, Colonel Warden in this AFD called my nomination "another ludicrous TPH nomination" — is that not an ad hominem attack? Immediately afterward, Miltowent makes a baseless argument ("Clearly ABC is a notable organization, this is simply an organizational issue, not an AfD issue.") — when I point out WP:NOTINHERITED, I get a snarky response of WP:HEREARESOMEOTHERINITIALS. Warden's comments in particular have me concerned that some editors are trying to run me off the wiki just because they disagree with me.
I will admit, as before, that my work is not the cleanest. But still, I feel people are focusing way too much on my mistakes. The comments above are borderline attacks, and as mentioned before, the tone of Dingley throughout this RFC/U smacks of "I hate Hammer's modus operandi, I'm gonna run him off". Does it not matter that I've made over 1200 articles? That I also fight vandalism? That most of my XFDs are problem-free, regardless of whether they result in "keep" or "delete"? I challenge anyone to show me any XFD I've made that shows bad faith (besides Xargs — I honestly don't know how I screwed up that one). I'm not afraid to admit that some of my actions are blunt, and that I do screw up — but certainly far more of my actions are in the form of "not screwing up". Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 21:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC) reply
Time and again over the years I see this editor nominating things without bothering to do even a quick check for sources, as well as his habit of renominating things he had nominated before and failed to get deleted. I'll find some examples.
Can someone make a bot to check for AFD nominations he did which had second nominations initiated by the same person that did the first one? A clear pattern can be found with enough effort or just a clever bot. I promise you, this has happened plenty of times. Dream Focus 13:27, 16 April 2012 (UTC) reply
I've gone ahead and reviewed what's at hand a bit, and I'm chiming in as somebody who, I will confess, gets a little overenthusiastic about deletions sometimes when I'm combing through New Pages. (See my other account, user:Dennisthe2, for this activity.)
To be perfectly frank, as it was pointed out above, hey, we make mistakes sometimes. I'm going to be open here and note that I will sometimes use the notion of "seems legit" as a gauge for AFDs. The caveat, though, is that this is not me trying to use AFD to spur cleanup. (Granted, if I'm wrong and WP:SNOW applies, I'll close it as soon as I figure it out - usually, this is the next day.)
Frankly speaking, I'm pretty well willing to AGF on the part of TPH - quite frankly, we're human, we make mistakes. If anything, maybe chilling out a little is the Right Thing.
-- Dennis The Tiger ( Rawr and stuff) 02:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC) reply
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Is there an easy way to seach for all AfD pages TPH has created?
Is there an easy way to count how often TPH's nominations result in "Keep", "Delete" or something else, and compare with community averages? --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
04:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
reply
Edgepedia ( talk) 13:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC) reply
No escalation to another forum or user sanctions have gained any consensus here. Instead TenPoundHammer acknowledges that some of his nominations to AfD are problematic and will endeavor to make nominations more in line with current community consensus (as proposed by Hasteur.) Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 11:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC) reply
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This was first raised at WP:AN#Back_off_the_Hammer, the following section is copied from there:
TenPoundHammer (
talk ·
contribs) is well-known for his huge count of edits. Most of these Many of theseIncorrect claim that didn't recognise his article contributions to country music, withdrawn. are deletions: either blocks of content, or articles. The article deletions are getting out of hand and are based on an increasingly dubious interpretation of policy. This post is as a result of
this
WP:CSD#G1
List of most highly populated countries, a 30k article with > 60 references. I make no comment on the quality, suitability or future deletion of this article - which is now at AfD. In fact, I've past history with the article's creator (this is how I saw the speedy notice) and I've called for many of their additions to be deleted on quality grounds myself. What is clear though is that articles of this size, on ostensibly appropriate topics, are not suitable for speedy deletion. They're just too complicated to judge so expeditiously. In this case, it's not only a speedy but a G1 as "patent nonsense". To quote the last summary point of that rationale, "In short, if you can understand it, G1 does not apply." There is no way that G1 can be applied to this article, even if we choose to delete it very soon. Nor is this a new editor who might not understand such things.
This editor calls to delete what looks like an article a day. We have no limits on such, there is no good reason to have one - a valid deletion is a valid deletion. Yet looking at this vast list (which I admit, isn't easy) they're an unedifying stream of dubious judgement.
Does it matter? After all, the barrage of keeps for April Fool's Day shows the robustness of WP in action. Yes, it does matter - because for everything that happens openly at AfD, there are others like WP:Articles for deletion/Stained glass windows of St Pauls, Clifton that happen "under the hood" and invisibly. In this case, a speedy deletion was applied to an article already at AfD just hours after that AfD and with no time for any secondary discussion. Should that article have been kept? I would argue that its deletion was primarily WP:BITEy, where a new editor has created St Pauls, Clifton, Bristol (itself targeted for deletion) and because they created what should have been sections of an article as separate articles, these were deleted (and deleted rather than the rather more obvious merge). WMF tell us regularly that new editors should be encouraged, and this sort of response does nothing to encourage that. Incidentally, there are few Victorian churches in affluent areas that aren't notable, just on their architectural merits and the coverage that inevitably generates.
I'm bringing this to AN because RFC/U is both complex and toothless, but also because of the volumes involved. I consider that TenPoundHammer is acting outside of generally supportable behaviour, either through policy or consensus, and that because of the volume involved this requires a substantial and speedy response. Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC) reply
See paste above.
These are some recent (mid February to mid March 2012) deletion nominations I've all come across accidentally, I therefore believe this to be only the tip of the iceberg. — Ruud 14:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC) reply
{List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}
See the AfDs.
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}
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It's unfair to single out TenPoundHammer as being the only one who doesn't do enough research before immediately reaching for a deletion request template. There are other editors who are downright lazy in their approach to building an encyclopaedia, thinking themselves to be in some sort of supervisory rôle while Somebody Else actually does the writing work; and that their task is to hypocritically go around pointing out where nobody, not even they themselves, have bothered to do any work. Their approach is in the long run a far more damaging one than TenPoundHammer's here. This is where I do agree with Andy Dingley's desired outcome, very strongly. But I don't want to make TenPoundHammer a poster child for that, since I don't see TenPoundHammer in that group.
I have the general, and somewhat vague, impression that TenPoundHammer's problem is one of having good intentions but simply not knowing how best to put them into effect. The administrators' noticeboard won't solve this, administrator action won't solve this, and even this RFC won't solve this. What will solve this is TenPoundHammer getting to grips with things like how to find books that discuss particular subjects, how to use other encyclopaedias as clues to how subjects can be covered, and how to make intelligent use of search engines. That's an education and learning issue: expansion of TenPoundHammer's skill set to be a better researcher and writer. A large amount of people piling on at an RFC/U saying "Yes, here's another bad deletion nomination that I was involved in." is far less useful than a few people going to User talk:TenPoundHammer and pointing out all of the search tools that are listed in Template:Search for (examples over there ⇗) and giving some pointers on their use. (Here's one pointer from me: Observe that searches don't have to be for the article title.)
This section is reserved for the use of the user whose conduct is disputed. Users writing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section, and the person writing this section should not write a view below. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but no one except the editor(s) named in the dispute may change the summary here.
First of all, way to not tell me about this RFC/U THIRTEEN DAYS into its existence. I feel like you guys are doing some sort of cloak and dagger stuff behind my back.
Anyway, yes. Some of my AFDs and PRODs and such have been misfires. For instance, Wizard (band), I honestly did google the band name + a member's name. Somehow, the first search found nothing but personal blogs and other unreliable sources, but a second search did find a reputable review which I added — I even pointed out "okay, I screwed up in my googling, I'll recant on my AFD". And yet it seems some believe that I never concede when a contrary opinion outweighs my own. I have admitted many times that my AFDs were in the wrong, and either withdrawn, or just let it be since I know it's going to close as "keep".
On
Xargs, the reason I stubbed the article was because it had an arbitrary example farm and what looked to me like instructions on how to do something with it. Tell me why something like "Note that not all versions of xargs
supports the {}
syntax. In those cases you may specify a string after -I
that will be replaced" should be kept in an article — is that not a blatant instruction guide written in second person, two things that directly violate how a proper Wikipedia article should be written?
Several times, I have been frustrated in AFDs — people will come along and say "Keep, it's notable." and then the article gets snowball kept because everyone's saying "it's notable, sources exist", but they do nothing to improve it. All they do is insist that it's somebody else's problem and as a result, we all sit on our asses and nothing gets done.
Is my work sloppy? Maybe. But I have seen many AFDs where I nominate a dire-looking article, someone argues that it be kept and — here's the biggie — actually IMPROVES the damn thing with sources. Hmm. Maybe AFD is cleanup after all. I bet not a one of those articles that got Heymanned after an AFD would even have had the dust knocked off it had someone not sent it to AFD.
WP:BEFORE, as mentioned below, is not a friggin' policy. I make sure to always do a source check before I nominate anything for AFD, and it just happens that I don't always dig deep enough for stuff. Very little of what I've AFDed seemed worthy of any alternative to deletion except maybe Halifax, Nova Scotia. But again, at least the AFD got something DONE there instead of continuing the six years of hemming and hawing. How much longer did we need to spin our wheels on that one, anyway?
Also, "the current points-scoring amongst administrative wannabees where an opportunity to delete something is seen as an opportunity to do 'something' and rack up a scorecard of articles deleted". Where the flying HELL do you think that I am an "administrative wannabee [ sic]" anymore? I've not run for RFA in years because I honestly don't think I ever will be admin material.
And I love how you outright jump to conclusions that I nominate stuff for deletion just to make my e-penis bigger. As if I have a deletion fetish. As if I believe that I get some sort of prize for having the most successful AFDs. I don't. My main goal every time I AFD is "improve the wiki in some fashion". I know full well that not all of my discussions will be closed as "delete". That's not to say I'm abusing the AFD function as a sneaky way to get an article cleaned up. That simply happens to be a positive side effect that sometimes stems from my work. Sometimes. And it's not like I'm the only one who has ever made an AFD that had to be withdrawn or speedy kept.
tl;dr: I won't deny that my actions are somewhat blunt. But this whole RFC/U reeks of a witch hunt to me, brought on entirely by those who disagree with me in some fashion, and who are looking for only the negative side of my every move. I honestly feel that, even if I fluff an AFD or two or ten, I'm still doing far more help than harm.
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I think this RFC/U is well-intentioned, and it makes some good points. But it's also somewhat one-sided. For example, it does not mention that the editor has already acknowledged mistakes. More generally, these comments do not reflect the totality of the editor's contributions. I don't think it's literally true that "most" of the editor's comments are "deletions." If anything, most of his edits are additions to music articles. Also, the editor has created more than a thousand articles. I have found most of the editor's proposed deletions and comments in AfDs to be spot on. Here are a few recent examples. There are many, many more.
The bottom line is that I have no problem with these concerns being raised, and I hope that the editor finds the comments to be useful. I make my own comments here in an effort to balance out the RFC/U.
Logical Cowboy ( talk) 17:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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There is a basic problem with point two of the "desired outcome" section, in that it expresses a desire for a community-wide change, which is outside the scope of a discussion of a single user. Suggest that point 2 be struck.
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I have closed and commented in many AfDs, and I do not recall TenPoundHammer's opinions or nominations as particularly problematic. I am unimpressed by the vague nature of the problems alleged (and evidence submitted) in this RfC, and they do not convince me that they warrant an examination of the editor's conduct. In the evidence, the only edit that is clearly problematic is the faulty CSD nomination of List of most highly populated countries as {{ db-nonsense}}. As to the alleged violations of WP:BEFORE, the evidence does not make clear, and it is not immediately apparent, how this step of the deletion process is supposed to have been violated in these cases. This also applies to the PROD. As to the template deletion nominations, the discussions apparently resulted in no consensus, so it is not clear why the repeated nominations are considered particularly disruptive in and of themselves. (I'm not saying that there might not be problems here, just that the RfC does a poor job of convincing me that there are.)
More generally, WP:BEFORE is not on a page that is labeled as a policy or guideline, and expecting deletion nominators to conduct a thorough search for sources beyond those cited in the article conflicts with the policy-based principle of WP:V, and specifically WP:BURDEN, that it is those who write or want to retain content who are responsible for finding and citing sources. On these grounds, I do not think that it is objectionable to nominate for deletion articles that do not establish their subject's notability without conducting a prior search for sources that goes beyond an initial Google search. Conducting detailed research is the responsibility of those who write or want to retain the article. Sandstein 10:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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The whole thing about the PROD of the Wizard article being deceptive is nonsense. The accusation that it was used for "sneaking stuff past a proper AFD" is obviously an assumption of bad faith. TPH is certainly aware that a PROD can be removed by any user at any time, so if there was any doubt that is what would happen, and what did in fact happen.
And then we see the AFD, which the certifiers are holding forth as an attempt to resolve this issue. What I see there is an AFD where the certifiers immediately began attacking the user making the nomination rather than limiting their comments to the subject under discussion. And then we see User:Warden, who is probably one of the most extremist inclusionist, coming to TPHs defense, so I'm having trouble seeing that incident as evidence of rabid, bad-faith deletionism as the certifiers would have us believe.
Rudd's post to TPH's talk page, also given as evidence of trying to resolve this issue, is so utterly condescending and dripping with accusations of bad faith that TPH should be commended, not censured, for just ignoring it.
Whenever one opens a discussion like this, they should be aware of WP:BOOMERANG. The behavior exhibited at and around the Wizard AFD is disgraceful, and using it as an example of supposed attempts at dispute resolution is about as ineffective a strategy to convince others as I can imagine.
And of course going to an admin board with a sarcastic attack on another user (back off the hammer? seriously?) cannot be regarded as serious attempt at dispute resolution but rather as an attempt to evoke an emotional response and get some sort of sanction on TPH.
As to the broader issue this shabby collection of evidence is supposedly trying to address, as others have mentioned, WP:BEFORE is advice, while WP:BURDEN is a subsection of WP:V, one of the five pillars of Wikipedia, so if we're going to get in a "my policy is bigger than yours" contest it's pretty obvious which side that would come down on. BEFORE is increasingly used like a blunt object in deletion discussions to disparage the opinions and efforts of anyone who dares to comment that maybe we should delete articles with poor sourcing. Beeblebrox ( talk) 18:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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I really hate RfCs with support and no comment/oppose sections. It (a) facilitates (to me) the impression of talking past not to others with opposing points of view, and (b) gives no idea of consensus - do the lack of supports mean neutrals, conditional supports or opposes?
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Mu:
Ten Pound Hammer has been a fixture in deletion discussions for years. He should be exemplifying best practices in ways that we do not expect newbies to. Instead, what this series of concerns demonstrates is disregard for best practices: Contra Sandstein, it really makes no difference what WP:BEFORE is labeled, because editors who have participated in the area for as long as TPH has have generally developed an intrinsic understanding of its expectations and both follow them and describe how they do so in their nominations. Instead of an elder statesman, TPH comes across little different than a newbie, misquoting WP:IINFO (see my links above), and then, unlike a true newbie, failing to respond to advice and incorporate it into future nominations. Inclusionists who misquote relevant guidelines in deletion discussions are roundly taken to task for misconstruing those guidelines, and properly so. Turnabout is fair play, and TPH needs to demonstrate appropriate care in his nominations. If the atmosphere at AfD is to improve, then all long-term participants need to behave well and lead by example, engaging in the best interests of the encyclopedia, not deceptively or inaccurately citing policies and guidelines in an attempt to bias the outcome of a deletion discussion. TPH should know better, and should be encouraged to participate scrupulously in the future or face additional scrutiny and possibly consequences if he declines to follow best practices after being advised to do so in this RfC/U. Jclemens ( talk) 23:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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I somehow feel a close personal connection to TenPoundHammer, probably because he busted my balls over nothing not once but twice at ANI (ostensibly because of my self-proclaimed inclusionism and his committed deletionism). Yet, despite that, and despite being on opposite sides of more than a few deletion debates over the subsequent last couple years, I think we've gained at least a grudging respect for one another. This RfC is utterly improper, to my mind, and should be immediately closed. There is no evidence that Mr. Hammer has been abusive of Guidelines in his nominations, there is no evidence that he has been disruptive in intent. He does not misuse automated tools to shotgun nominations in a lazy manner. He is an individual who draws inclusion boundaries a bit more stringently than the majority of Wikipedians. I think he and others like him at AfD are a perfect counterbalance to Article Rescue Squad, who scramble to source out pieces and save them from deletion attacks — a yin and yang, if you will, or if you prefer dialectics to eastern philosophy: a struggle of opposites from which synthesis emerges. Certainly, some of Mr. Hammer's nominations are a bit sketchy. Still, it is good that he is there to call people on their marginal sourcing and to challenge their fuzzy logic in debates. What is the intent here — to burn the guy for believing what he believes? That's bogus. I disagree with the man, but I'll defend his right to bring the AfD challenges he believes necessary. Carrite ( talk) 00:24, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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TPH seems to understand that he's not very good at this stuff and it is commendable that this does not discourage him to the point of giving up completely. But the flip side of this doggedness seems to be that he often seems too stubborn and ornery. Typical behaviour patterns seem to include escalating straight to AFD if a PROD is removed or repeating an AFD if the article is not deleted the first time around. And, if an article is improved by other editors in the course of these repeated attempts to delete, TPH seems to want to take the credit for this improvement, even though he did nothing to help.
As TPH is weak at searching for sources and improving articles, he should please show more willingness to accept the opinion of other experienced editors that improvement is feasible. In particular, if a PROD is removed by an experienced editor, he should engage in local discussion at the article rather than escalating immediately to AFD. By engaging with other experienced editors in a collegiate way rather than a confrontational way, he may pick up some tips and the overall process is more likely to go smoothly.
Warden ( talk) 20:07, 18 March 2012 (UTC) reply
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I think this unfairly focuses on User:TenPoundHammer. None of the links provided are particularly troubling. TPH shouldn't be sanctioned for breaking rules that aren't written. Instead of focusing on a single editor, I think a policy discussion is required. Most likely, WP:BEFORE needs to be prescriptively written as required practice. Or a subset of WP:BEFORE, and probably prescriptive to longterm contributors in deletion, so as to not bite newcomers.
This RFC should be closed, with Desired outcome 2 spun into a new discussion, such as converting WP:BEFORE into a new policy. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 03:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC) reply
Comments:
Response to TPH's response above
TPH’s response above rings true to me, and as I said already, this RFC/U is misdirected. There is a problem with the ease Twinkle AfD nominations, and the lack of formal requirements for deletion nominations, but the solution is not to focus on a single editor. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 05:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC) reply
See also my links at #Other attempts, perhaps helping to demonstrate that this is not just a recent problem, but a long-term one.
I know TenPoundHammer's edits fairly well, but putting together selective diffs for an RfC about him is very difficult given that he has well over 150,000 edits. I have a vague impression that while he has had some improvement over the years in some areas of deletion (such as less frequent faulty CSDs), in other areas things have been about the same (his AfD nominations and rationales) while some problems have worsened (his frustrations [20] becoming apparent in near-attacks and sarcastic comments in AfDs).
One part of the #Statement of the dispute I disagree with is that "most" of his edits are deletions. TenPoundHammer's main focus is on building content, mostly of country music articles. He does very well when he is building those articles. He is much more likely to get into trouble when he focuses on deletions. It's part of what I see as a larger issue of his impatience (or at least what comes across as impatience).
He gets impatient about poor sourcing in articles [21], and that seems a part of what drives his deletion work. He has been warned repeatedly about civility [22] [23] but the problems continue, and even this week his frustrations spill over into AfD discussions: [24] [25] And he is still yelling in edit summaries: [26] [27] and using other strange edit summaries: [28]
We don't want to lose TPH as an editor. What are potential solutions here? He has already tried slowing his pace and other tactics [29], but that does not appear to be enough. The difficulties have persisted for years despite years of feedback. Oddly enough, I think TPH himself identified what might be needed, a long time ago: [30] Staying clear of deletion work and focusing instead on his very good content building.
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TPH has done great work with clearing out
WP:CRYSTAL future albums. And I don't have a problem with a few errors, either of fingers or of judgement. I do see a pattern of "what else needs to go" - not just with TPH but with many editors, and it makes sense, of course, to batch work, and get speedies out of the way quickly. This does lead to a systemic deletionism which needs to be guarded against - notably deletes instead of merges, which are taken to support one another - for example albums are deleted, the artist follows because he has no "notable" albums, the record label has no notable artists and gets deleted, etc... Deletion should be coralled within the boundaries of policy, well within, doubt should mean "keep" or "keep for now" or "merge" or "let someoen else do it". Only then will we be able to see if policy works when applied, and make improvements.
Rich
Farmbrough,
11:39, 30 March 2012 (UTC).
reply
On April 1, 2012, I noticed a number of XfD nominations by Ten Pound Hammer that I do consider to be frivolous and disruptive, namely, a number of nominations of articles and other pages for which clearly no reason for deletion exists. These include Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nyan Cat, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Backwards, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tautology (rhetoric) (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Jimbo Wales (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 April 1, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion (3rd nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Don't delete the main page and this. I understand that these were meant to be jokes, but nonetheless they disrupted the articles (readers see the AfD tags) and (especially in this quantity) they disrupted Wikipedia's deletion process, which is intended to be a venue for improving the encyclopedia rather than for attempts at humor. Sandstein 18:38, 1 April 2012 (UTC) reply
I would like to float the idea of imposing editing restrictions on TenPoundHammer.
I suggest that restrictions be temporary (24 hours) and escalating (one week, two months, one year) if he continues his behavior.
I propose that the restrictions consist of a ban on tagging any page for proposed deletion or speedy deletion, listing any page at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, merging articles, blanking, or in any other way deleting articles, broadly construed. He should be free to suggest deletions or merges on article or user talk pages.
If I understand the rules correctly, this would require that this be proposed to the arbitration committee. I am not suggesting that this be done at this time. I am only testing the waters to see if there is a consensus for imposing editing restrictions. Needless to say, the actions and numbers above are just what I pulled out of my hat; feel free to suggest other solutions. Suggestion withdrawn: the consensus is clearly against asking arbcom to impose editing restrictions. --
Guy Macon (
talk)
23:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
reply
New View by Guy Macon:
In the response section, TPH writes "On Xargs, the reason I stubbed the article was because it had an arbitrary example farm..." This completely ignores what pretty much everyone who has looked at it is saying, both here and during the AfD. The complaint is not about him stubbing the article. The complaint is that he nominated it for deletion [31] with the rationale "Deprodded with primary source. Doesn't seem individually notable. Couldn't find any real sources." All I had to do was to type the word xargs into Google and I found three excellent sources that demonstrate notability. On the first page. This stretches the assumption of good faith to the breaking point. I can see no other explanation other than TPH writing that without bothering to look for a source. And that is a problem. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 23:09, 3 April 2012 (UTC) reply
After looking through the list graciously provided by Edgepedia below, out of 28 I count 5 "bad" noms ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of April Fool's Day jokes (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Carnatic instrumentalists (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of games with concealed rules, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of country performers by era, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/They Will Have Their Way), where the consensus was overwhelmingly "keep" and there was very little to no support for deletion/merger/redirect. An additional 4 of these noms seem to have been made on the behalf of other editors who pressed the wrong buttons. So, an error rate of ~20%. Yes, that's probably a bit high. I think the takeaway from this, TPH, is that Wikipedia likes lists a lot more than you do, so think extra hard when nomming them. (Wikipedia likes footballers much more than I do, so I try not to look too hard at those articles; we all have to make compromises to work together, no?)
You also seem to have a bit of a problem badgering "keep" voters. (I don't think this edit can be construed as anything other than losing your shit completely.) So, um... stop that. I frankly don't know how else to put it. Danger High voltage! 21:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC) reply
From "Evidence of disputed behavior": "War on templates (WP:DISRUPTIVE) Nominating {{cleanup}} over and over again: January 11, June 2011, another attempt at DRV, February 2012".
Renominating after more than six months is nothing wrong and resulted in a successful RFC that may fix part of the problems listed in TfD nom. I see nothing that may be called disruptive. Bulwersator ( talk) 00:07, 9 April 2012 (UTC) reply
Can't think of anywhere else to put this...
I think some people are getting out of hand with what they do to me. For instance, Colonel Warden in this AFD called my nomination "another ludicrous TPH nomination" — is that not an ad hominem attack? Immediately afterward, Miltowent makes a baseless argument ("Clearly ABC is a notable organization, this is simply an organizational issue, not an AfD issue.") — when I point out WP:NOTINHERITED, I get a snarky response of WP:HEREARESOMEOTHERINITIALS. Warden's comments in particular have me concerned that some editors are trying to run me off the wiki just because they disagree with me.
I will admit, as before, that my work is not the cleanest. But still, I feel people are focusing way too much on my mistakes. The comments above are borderline attacks, and as mentioned before, the tone of Dingley throughout this RFC/U smacks of "I hate Hammer's modus operandi, I'm gonna run him off". Does it not matter that I've made over 1200 articles? That I also fight vandalism? That most of my XFDs are problem-free, regardless of whether they result in "keep" or "delete"? I challenge anyone to show me any XFD I've made that shows bad faith (besides Xargs — I honestly don't know how I screwed up that one). I'm not afraid to admit that some of my actions are blunt, and that I do screw up — but certainly far more of my actions are in the form of "not screwing up". Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 21:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC) reply
Time and again over the years I see this editor nominating things without bothering to do even a quick check for sources, as well as his habit of renominating things he had nominated before and failed to get deleted. I'll find some examples.
Can someone make a bot to check for AFD nominations he did which had second nominations initiated by the same person that did the first one? A clear pattern can be found with enough effort or just a clever bot. I promise you, this has happened plenty of times. Dream Focus 13:27, 16 April 2012 (UTC) reply
I've gone ahead and reviewed what's at hand a bit, and I'm chiming in as somebody who, I will confess, gets a little overenthusiastic about deletions sometimes when I'm combing through New Pages. (See my other account, user:Dennisthe2, for this activity.)
To be perfectly frank, as it was pointed out above, hey, we make mistakes sometimes. I'm going to be open here and note that I will sometimes use the notion of "seems legit" as a gauge for AFDs. The caveat, though, is that this is not me trying to use AFD to spur cleanup. (Granted, if I'm wrong and WP:SNOW applies, I'll close it as soon as I figure it out - usually, this is the next day.)
Frankly speaking, I'm pretty well willing to AGF on the part of TPH - quite frankly, we're human, we make mistakes. If anything, maybe chilling out a little is the Right Thing.
-- Dennis The Tiger ( Rawr and stuff) 02:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC) reply
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Is there an easy way to seach for all AfD pages TPH has created?
Is there an easy way to count how often TPH's nominations result in "Keep", "Delete" or something else, and compare with community averages? --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
04:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
reply
Edgepedia ( talk) 13:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC) reply
No escalation to another forum or user sanctions have gained any consensus here. Instead TenPoundHammer acknowledges that some of his nominations to AfD are problematic and will endeavor to make nominations more in line with current community consensus (as proposed by Hasteur.) Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 11:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC) reply