In an edit on April 30, 2005 Yuber ( talk · contribs) removed the text of Sura 9.29 from Jizya with the comment "RV, inapplicable quote" [1]. The same edit removes mention of Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide, by Bat Yeor, Miriam Kochan and David Littman ISBN 0838639437. This material had been added earlier that day by Klonimus ( talk · contribs) [2]. The quote from the Quran is genuine and is found in verse 29 here. Yuber's edit was a revert which removed several other small changes Klonimus had made. Klonimu then restored adding links to the scriptural passage and to a Islamic perspective on Jizya [3] [4]. In his next edit Yuber did not remove the quotation but removed the citation of it and softened the reference to it as authority [5]. Klonimus restored [6] [7]. Yuber again reverted [8]. Klonimus restores again [9]. Yuber again reverts with the comment "whether or not Jizyah has a "direct" basis is up for debate, you are not a qu'ranic scholar either, restoring NPOV" [10]. A series of minor edits and dialog then ensues [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]. Yuber then inexplicably reverts with the comment "RV same reason as before" [20]. Klonimus queries [21]. Yuber then removes Category:Islam from the article [22]. Jayjg ( talk · contribs) reverts and queries [23]. Klonimus then removes some weasel words [24] and adds some plain language [25]. Yuber reverts and continues to discuss Category:Islam saying it is not needed as a subcategory Category:Islamic law is already included [26]. Jayjg admits the point but restores Klonimus' edits [27]. Dialog by Klonimus [28]. Yuber then removes "The imposition of Jizyah upon dhimmis, is established by Sura 9.29 of the Koran" arguing about the distinction between "dhimmi" and "people of the book" [29]. Klonimus restores substituting "infidel" [30]. Yuber then demands a "source" [31]! Klonimus then inexplicably removes the Quran citation and quotation (his edit comment "Pay the Jizyah to the Quakers !!!" is the latest in a series of similar cracks) [32]. Yuber then inexplicably restores the Quran citation and quotation [33]. Klonimus restores and cites Wikipedia as a source for regressive tax [34]. Yuber restores weasel language and notes an anachronims [35]. Jayjg removes weasel language with the comment 'This is nonsense; the quoted Sura refers to it directly; what makes it a "claim"?' [36]. Yuber restores weasel language and again notes anachronism, arguing that the issues are "debatable" [37]. Jayjg restores and queries as to what is "debatable" [38]. Yuber makes his point clear (Even if there was no Jizya there would still be taxes) [39]. Yuber point out that Jizya is sometimes translated "tribute" [40]. Klonimus restores Quran citation and quotation and adds a note on translation and its implications [41]. Klonimus refactors [42]. Klonimus copyedits and queries [43]. Yuber reverts to his version [44]. Klonimus restores and requests Yuber edit rather than revert [45]. Yuber reverts with the comment "RV, you are not accepting the compromise" [46]. Klonimus restores with the comment "Yuber, you clober' " [47] (Down to name-calling). Yuber offers a "compromise" which mades extensive modifications [48]. Jayjg "NPOV, cleanup" [49]. Klonimus defends what is arguably original research as "common knowledge" [50]. Yuber reverts, removing dialog by Klonimus with the comment "Highly POV edits" [51]. Another revert by Yuber without comment [52]. Yuber elaborates regarding definition [53]. El C ( talk · contribs) deletes the section "criticism" as original research pending citation of authority [54]. Yuber adds mitigating information [55]. Copyedit by BrandonYusufToropov ( talk · contribs) [56] [57]. Yuber removes characterization of external link as "Muslim apologetics site" [58]. Jayjg does more cleanup [59]. Wholesale revert by Yuber [60]. Jayjg restores [61]. Yuber reverts with the comment "POV, jayjg not willing to engage in discussion or compromise" [62]. Jayjg restores with the comment "I have compromised in a number of things; you seem unable to. I also don't seen any discussion on your part for any of your changes. Bring it to talk:. and watch the 3RR." [63]. Yuber muddies definition but comments "cleaned up, compromised on a few points, made clear definition from the sura" [64]. Jayjg addresses the definition [65]. Jayjg removes the language "in a modern context. However, it is not levied in modern times." and terms it "original research" [66]. Querie regarding source by Jayjg [67]. Yuber adds sourced material but continues to maintain ambiguity of Sura quotation [68]. Yuber responds to query and restores language regarding imposition of jizya in modern times [69]. Jayjg removes ambiguity from definition [70]. Jayjg repeats and refines query [71]. Yuber restores ambiguity and responds in general terms to Jayjg's query [72]. SlimVirgin ( talk · contribs) reverts to Jayjg's version [73]. Yuber copyedits and restores ambiguity [74]. Jayjg adds sourced, but critical information [75]. Jayjg restores and terms ambiguity introduced by Yuber to be original research [76]. Yuber reintroduces ambiguity and adds POV template [77]. Yuber restores information and link to zakat [78]. Jayjg restores clarity and referenced information [79]. Jayjg copyedits with attitude [80]. Jayjg removes repetitive and misleading information [81]. Yuber restores and copyedits [82]. SlimVirgin reverts to Jayjg's version [83]. Yuber again edits the definition [84]. SlimVirgin reverts [85]. Jayjg adds sourced definition [86]. Klonimus adds information about modern human rights standards [87]. Jayjg copyedits and compromises [88]. Jayjg removes Klonimus' information, terming it original research [89]. Jayjg restores ambiguous language [90]. Jayjg edits regarding translation of jizya [91]. BrandonYusufToropov deletes pejudicial material from The Hedaya based on talk page discussion [92]. Yuber proposes a version [93]. Yuber replaces previously deleted passage [94]. Edits omitted.
Another edit under contention is this edit by Yuber which is said to remove sourced material [95]. This passage, quoted from http://www.secularislam.org/articles/bostom.htm, a site which advocates a secular Islamic society, is from a letter of The Messenger of Allah to the town of Eilat. Footnote 34 identifies the quotation as from "Gil. “A History of Palestine, 634-1099”, p. 28," History of Palestine, 634-1099 by Moshe Gil and Ethel Broido, Cambridge University Press (1997), ISBN 0521599849. This book is searchable on Amazon; a search for "Eilat" returns a hit on page 28 which is the text refered to in the footnote. Gill gives as his source "Ibn Sa'd," author of a multi-volume reference work which is cited numerous times in History of Palestine, its exact title is uncertain. Yuber's edit summary is misleading, refering to another text, not mentioning removal of the quotation, "clarified khalid ibn walid quote." This quotation was apparently inserted by Jayjg [96]. After Yuber's removal of the quotation Jayjg restored and quiried as to the reason for removal [97]. Yuber again reverted with the comment "took out strange quote" [98]. Jayjg restored with the comment "restoring properly sourced quote, other fixes; please stop removing sourced material; again, this is approaching vandalism" [99]. Yuber then makes a massive revert with the comment "RV to last accurate version" [100]. Jayjg restores [101]. Yuber reverts. Jayjg reverts. Yuber then adds the following text to the article:
The following letter is only found in the history of Palestine by Moshe Gil, a Jewish historian. It exists in no other history of Islam or the spread of Islam, either Muslim or Secular. It is supposedly a letter from Muhammad to the Jews and Christians of Eilat:
See Yuber's comment on the talk page. Further discussion between Yuber and Jayjg is at Talk:Jizya#The_Hedaya.27s_definition_of_jizyah and Talk:Jizya#Gil_the_Jew. (At this point the origin of the quote had not been extensively researched as it was later on the talk page, see Talk:Jizya#Moshe_Gil.) Yuber's reaction seems to be based on Gil being Jewish, which he derives from his Jewish first name; his own unfamiliarity with the quotation; and his knowledge that The Messenger could not write himself, see the talk page comments.
Following Yuber's edit MPerel ( talk · contribs) then tones it down [102]. Yuber adds the language "a prominent [[Jew|Jewish]] historian" [103]. Jizzel4r ( talk · contribs) then reverts to an earlier version with the comment "undo edit by yuber" [104]. Yuber reverts with the comment "RV obvious sockpuppet" [105]. Klonimus attempts a compromise [106]. Yuber then adds the comment "(Note:the letter exists in no other history, Muslim or secular)" [107]. An edit war then ensues over a POV template added by Yuber with El C doing the reverting. Jayjg then queries regarding Yuber's statement regarding the quotation [108]. Jayjg then removes the link indentifying Gil as a Jewish historian with the comment "is his religion relevant? Sounds like poisoning the well to me. Maybe he's an atheist. Maybe he converted to Islam." [109]. Yuber restores with the comment "His religion is very relevant, as the rest of the commentators in here's religions are relevant" [110]. Jayjg removes with the comment "Yes, but you don't know his religion, do you?" [111]. Yuber restores with the comment "according to the very well written article on "Jew", being a Jew is also being a part of an ethnicity/culture, I think we both know this guy is a Jew, a proud one at that" [112]. Mirv ( talk · contribs) wonders if anyone has looked at the book [113]. Yuber then replaces the identification of Gil as a Jewish historian with "professor at Tel Aviv university in Israel" [114]. See current version Jizya#History.
In an edit on April 30, 2005 Yuber ( talk · contribs) removed the text of Sura 9.29 from Jizya with the comment "RV, inapplicable quote" [1]. The same edit removes mention of Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide, by Bat Yeor, Miriam Kochan and David Littman ISBN 0838639437. This material had been added earlier that day by Klonimus ( talk · contribs) [2]. The quote from the Quran is genuine and is found in verse 29 here. Yuber's edit was a revert which removed several other small changes Klonimus had made. Klonimu then restored adding links to the scriptural passage and to a Islamic perspective on Jizya [3] [4]. In his next edit Yuber did not remove the quotation but removed the citation of it and softened the reference to it as authority [5]. Klonimus restored [6] [7]. Yuber again reverted [8]. Klonimus restores again [9]. Yuber again reverts with the comment "whether or not Jizyah has a "direct" basis is up for debate, you are not a qu'ranic scholar either, restoring NPOV" [10]. A series of minor edits and dialog then ensues [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]. Yuber then inexplicably reverts with the comment "RV same reason as before" [20]. Klonimus queries [21]. Yuber then removes Category:Islam from the article [22]. Jayjg ( talk · contribs) reverts and queries [23]. Klonimus then removes some weasel words [24] and adds some plain language [25]. Yuber reverts and continues to discuss Category:Islam saying it is not needed as a subcategory Category:Islamic law is already included [26]. Jayjg admits the point but restores Klonimus' edits [27]. Dialog by Klonimus [28]. Yuber then removes "The imposition of Jizyah upon dhimmis, is established by Sura 9.29 of the Koran" arguing about the distinction between "dhimmi" and "people of the book" [29]. Klonimus restores substituting "infidel" [30]. Yuber then demands a "source" [31]! Klonimus then inexplicably removes the Quran citation and quotation (his edit comment "Pay the Jizyah to the Quakers !!!" is the latest in a series of similar cracks) [32]. Yuber then inexplicably restores the Quran citation and quotation [33]. Klonimus restores and cites Wikipedia as a source for regressive tax [34]. Yuber restores weasel language and notes an anachronims [35]. Jayjg removes weasel language with the comment 'This is nonsense; the quoted Sura refers to it directly; what makes it a "claim"?' [36]. Yuber restores weasel language and again notes anachronism, arguing that the issues are "debatable" [37]. Jayjg restores and queries as to what is "debatable" [38]. Yuber makes his point clear (Even if there was no Jizya there would still be taxes) [39]. Yuber point out that Jizya is sometimes translated "tribute" [40]. Klonimus restores Quran citation and quotation and adds a note on translation and its implications [41]. Klonimus refactors [42]. Klonimus copyedits and queries [43]. Yuber reverts to his version [44]. Klonimus restores and requests Yuber edit rather than revert [45]. Yuber reverts with the comment "RV, you are not accepting the compromise" [46]. Klonimus restores with the comment "Yuber, you clober' " [47] (Down to name-calling). Yuber offers a "compromise" which mades extensive modifications [48]. Jayjg "NPOV, cleanup" [49]. Klonimus defends what is arguably original research as "common knowledge" [50]. Yuber reverts, removing dialog by Klonimus with the comment "Highly POV edits" [51]. Another revert by Yuber without comment [52]. Yuber elaborates regarding definition [53]. El C ( talk · contribs) deletes the section "criticism" as original research pending citation of authority [54]. Yuber adds mitigating information [55]. Copyedit by BrandonYusufToropov ( talk · contribs) [56] [57]. Yuber removes characterization of external link as "Muslim apologetics site" [58]. Jayjg does more cleanup [59]. Wholesale revert by Yuber [60]. Jayjg restores [61]. Yuber reverts with the comment "POV, jayjg not willing to engage in discussion or compromise" [62]. Jayjg restores with the comment "I have compromised in a number of things; you seem unable to. I also don't seen any discussion on your part for any of your changes. Bring it to talk:. and watch the 3RR." [63]. Yuber muddies definition but comments "cleaned up, compromised on a few points, made clear definition from the sura" [64]. Jayjg addresses the definition [65]. Jayjg removes the language "in a modern context. However, it is not levied in modern times." and terms it "original research" [66]. Querie regarding source by Jayjg [67]. Yuber adds sourced material but continues to maintain ambiguity of Sura quotation [68]. Yuber responds to query and restores language regarding imposition of jizya in modern times [69]. Jayjg removes ambiguity from definition [70]. Jayjg repeats and refines query [71]. Yuber restores ambiguity and responds in general terms to Jayjg's query [72]. SlimVirgin ( talk · contribs) reverts to Jayjg's version [73]. Yuber copyedits and restores ambiguity [74]. Jayjg adds sourced, but critical information [75]. Jayjg restores and terms ambiguity introduced by Yuber to be original research [76]. Yuber reintroduces ambiguity and adds POV template [77]. Yuber restores information and link to zakat [78]. Jayjg restores clarity and referenced information [79]. Jayjg copyedits with attitude [80]. Jayjg removes repetitive and misleading information [81]. Yuber restores and copyedits [82]. SlimVirgin reverts to Jayjg's version [83]. Yuber again edits the definition [84]. SlimVirgin reverts [85]. Jayjg adds sourced definition [86]. Klonimus adds information about modern human rights standards [87]. Jayjg copyedits and compromises [88]. Jayjg removes Klonimus' information, terming it original research [89]. Jayjg restores ambiguous language [90]. Jayjg edits regarding translation of jizya [91]. BrandonYusufToropov deletes pejudicial material from The Hedaya based on talk page discussion [92]. Yuber proposes a version [93]. Yuber replaces previously deleted passage [94]. Edits omitted.
Another edit under contention is this edit by Yuber which is said to remove sourced material [95]. This passage, quoted from http://www.secularislam.org/articles/bostom.htm, a site which advocates a secular Islamic society, is from a letter of The Messenger of Allah to the town of Eilat. Footnote 34 identifies the quotation as from "Gil. “A History of Palestine, 634-1099”, p. 28," History of Palestine, 634-1099 by Moshe Gil and Ethel Broido, Cambridge University Press (1997), ISBN 0521599849. This book is searchable on Amazon; a search for "Eilat" returns a hit on page 28 which is the text refered to in the footnote. Gill gives as his source "Ibn Sa'd," author of a multi-volume reference work which is cited numerous times in History of Palestine, its exact title is uncertain. Yuber's edit summary is misleading, refering to another text, not mentioning removal of the quotation, "clarified khalid ibn walid quote." This quotation was apparently inserted by Jayjg [96]. After Yuber's removal of the quotation Jayjg restored and quiried as to the reason for removal [97]. Yuber again reverted with the comment "took out strange quote" [98]. Jayjg restored with the comment "restoring properly sourced quote, other fixes; please stop removing sourced material; again, this is approaching vandalism" [99]. Yuber then makes a massive revert with the comment "RV to last accurate version" [100]. Jayjg restores [101]. Yuber reverts. Jayjg reverts. Yuber then adds the following text to the article:
The following letter is only found in the history of Palestine by Moshe Gil, a Jewish historian. It exists in no other history of Islam or the spread of Islam, either Muslim or Secular. It is supposedly a letter from Muhammad to the Jews and Christians of Eilat:
See Yuber's comment on the talk page. Further discussion between Yuber and Jayjg is at Talk:Jizya#The_Hedaya.27s_definition_of_jizyah and Talk:Jizya#Gil_the_Jew. (At this point the origin of the quote had not been extensively researched as it was later on the talk page, see Talk:Jizya#Moshe_Gil.) Yuber's reaction seems to be based on Gil being Jewish, which he derives from his Jewish first name; his own unfamiliarity with the quotation; and his knowledge that The Messenger could not write himself, see the talk page comments.
Following Yuber's edit MPerel ( talk · contribs) then tones it down [102]. Yuber adds the language "a prominent [[Jew|Jewish]] historian" [103]. Jizzel4r ( talk · contribs) then reverts to an earlier version with the comment "undo edit by yuber" [104]. Yuber reverts with the comment "RV obvious sockpuppet" [105]. Klonimus attempts a compromise [106]. Yuber then adds the comment "(Note:the letter exists in no other history, Muslim or secular)" [107]. An edit war then ensues over a POV template added by Yuber with El C doing the reverting. Jayjg then queries regarding Yuber's statement regarding the quotation [108]. Jayjg then removes the link indentifying Gil as a Jewish historian with the comment "is his religion relevant? Sounds like poisoning the well to me. Maybe he's an atheist. Maybe he converted to Islam." [109]. Yuber restores with the comment "His religion is very relevant, as the rest of the commentators in here's religions are relevant" [110]. Jayjg removes with the comment "Yes, but you don't know his religion, do you?" [111]. Yuber restores with the comment "according to the very well written article on "Jew", being a Jew is also being a part of an ethnicity/culture, I think we both know this guy is a Jew, a proud one at that" [112]. Mirv ( talk · contribs) wonders if anyone has looked at the book [113]. Yuber then replaces the identification of Gil as a Jewish historian with "professor at Tel Aviv university in Israel" [114]. See current version Jizya#History.