Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.
When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.
As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=5587219&oldid=5584644] [1].
This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.
Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.
If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.
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The Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop. /Workshop provides for comment by parties and others as well as Arbitrators. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators may edit /Proposed decision.
I think that the Arbitration Committee is already more familiar with the Giano case than I. My sole prior experience, more or less, was involvement as a clerk helping to compile a timeline in early February for the case in which Carnildo, amongst others, were desysopped.
I've already described my own involvement in this affair at length publicly, and privately in a brief email to Jimbo, that he has asked to forward to the Committee. The Committee is familiar with my thinking and actions so I won't bother to present evidence on that.
I've always taken great care to divorce my personal actions from those of the arbitration committee, recusing as a clerk when there is the slightest hint of conflict. I have never claimed to be speaking or acting for the arbitration committee except when required to deliver Committee rulings, and I regard the perception that I act with arbitration committee authority as misguided and baseless. It was perhaps insensitive to get involved in some affairs where the parties seemed to have convinced themselves that the arbitrators were at war with the editors and I was their loyal henchman.
The Committee, and many other administrators, are aware of my opinions on good administratorship. Perception is as important as reality. Choosing a controversial sysop for the clerk role, however skilled he may be, is probably not a good idea.
I am not using my sysop bit at present. -- Tony Sidaway 22:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I will offer my views, willingly, but I have to query something before that. My understanding of arbitration is that evidence must be submitted on the evidence page. A private communication between Tony Sidaway and Jimbo Wales, or to the arbitrator's mailing list, or even to each arbitrator's user page, is not public and not put in evidence. Inasmuch as it is a principle of most Anglophone judicial procedures that evidence be given in open court, that there be no secret charge or secret evidence, I object initially to Tony's suggestion that he has offered thoughts which should be considered (evidentiary) and yet are not open to examination by all sides. To be clear, I am no one's prosecutor, no one's "other side," but it would sure help to know what has been said already, so at least, in my evidence, I know what is in contention and what needs to be clarified. Geogre 00:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but, since private communication is going to be a large point in my view, it seems like it's either inappropriate to state it as evidence, above, or inappropriate to have it be private, or inappropriate for the arbitrators to consider. I'm sure it was innocuous, or irrelevant to procedings, but it's rather strange to open one's statement by saying, essentially, "I've written all of you privately, so no need to say anything here." It's as if one were saying, "You all know that I have two pair; let's see how the others bet without knowing this." Geogre 09:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
With everything I write, please understand that I apologize for the length. I am trying to be concise, but the Workshop page is now so full as to be unreadable, so some things here may seem out of place. My apologies, again.
There are two sets of offenses against policy that can be arbitrated, in my view.
There are many of these that have been committed in off-wiki fora. The "#wikipedia-en-admins" IRC channel has been rife with denigration, plotting, and illicit actions. Evidence of these cannot be presented here, and therefore it is up to the arbitrators to either know the subject matter or not, but, for those who do, it establishes mens rea -- the mindset of the crime. The above-named individuals showed not a willingness, but an actual desire, to stop all "process" and to act on individual desires. Those who requested that they follow the rules were derided and placed into an enemies list.
My own view is that this has become an omnibus Rfar, which reduces its potential effectiveness in imposing remedies. However, if I can lay out a particular ideology and issue that underpins all of the abuses, all of the bad behavior, by each of the parties, I should very much like to highlight one feature: secret communication and lobbying in secret to act against policy.
The common element in this is, I think, that private associations, whether those associations are the people who write academic articles, those people who are on ArbCom (or think they are), those people who are bureaucrats, or those people who spend time on the administrator's IRC channel (and say things like, "Who is this Texas Android person? If there is any way to ban him, I want him gone" or "If they don't have diffs, fuck 'em!" or "Major process wonk" or "ArbCom is your mother, whether you know it or not") have allowed themselves to be blinded to the larger group, the project of Wikipedia. Because we are now so large and so crowded and with such diversity of content, we naturally form like-minded circles and get frustrated when our vision of what is undoubtedly true cannot be communicated.
Phil Sandifer's user page announces that he will not read policy or pay attention to it, because it gets in the way of doing what he knows to be correct. Kelly and Tony have acted out that philosophy, but anyone who acts that out is saying that his or her private understanding needs no consultation and that his or her efforts seek no compromise or cooperation. Both Kelly and Tony have put the philosophy into action. The egoism involved has been exaggerated by private communication. First, the two users and others engaged in impropriety on an IRC channel, including revealing sensitive information (the same information that supposedly makes it impossible for an "emeritus" arbitrator to lose access to the mailing list), and the purpose of the channel seemed to be to cooperate in clearing obstacles for the superusers to act without the hindrance of "process wonks." Additionally, both have intimated that there was a secret forum for judging and evaluating other users. That forum may have been the IRC clubhouse, but, in the case of Kelly, it was often intimated that a secret avenue to power was open to her. Even in her own statement about giving up her rights, she insisted that "thousands look to" her every day for "opinions." That statement surpasses hyperbole. It again claims that she has a cache of power and importance that will allow her to swiftly mow down those in her way (if she were not so magnanimous).
What is critical, I think, is that any group that allows its friends and friendship to carve out a private discussion area, or which believes that it must communicate in private, or which sets up "invitation only" discussion areas is a group that is setting up an echo chamber. If such discussions are about private matters, then they are fine. If they are about site-wide issues, then the voices of the entire site are necessary. May Gmaxwell and Mindspillage talk to each other? Of course they may. They may not plot, nor use their association to suggest that they have extra special powers. My belief is that the bureaucrats who decided on "discretion" were flat wrong. One can use discretion on the deletion of an article, because WP:DRV exists to hash out community consensus, and because the action can be easily reversed. However, a small group cannot act on "discretion" about a position that is defined as "a person trusted by the community." A person can act on personal judgment if the issue can be reviewed and reversed, if the question is a single item, but blocking established users should never be a personal decision, whether that person is Carnildo, Fred Bauder, Tony Sidaway, or me. The greater the effect, the greater the need for review before hand and the more improper it is to silence the voices of others. The damage of losing a new account is worrying, but the damage in losing a long-time contributor is horrifying. The risk of losing an administrator (such as Paul August, Filiocht, ALoan, or, I hope, myself) should be unimaginable, because each step up is an investment of time, trust, and oversight. To allow Tony Sidaway to unilaterally block Giano for disagreement, or for a group on an invisible IRC channel to collude to plan for getting rid of Giano, is an atrocious offense. For Kelly Martin to decide that her own view of the editing patterns of another user are such that revealing personal information is justified is unspeakable. All of these bad actions, I think, come from isolation, from not listening to the voices of the site.
I do not think that IRC channels do much good, but invitation-only channels are asking for clubhouses. That their contents cannot be reported in arbitration is a loophole that allows for the most pernicious collusion. I do not think that the arbitrator's mailing list should be entirely invisible, as it is a false dichotomy to suppose that complete invisibility and complete access are the only options. A redacted summary would be possible. However, if it is to remain as it is now, then it must be policed so that it never carries content about things that are not already arbitration cases. If the site were assured that that was the policy, then no one could be bluffed or confused by the next "Kelly's" statements into believing that "mother" is coming to punish the lowly administrators for acting according to their collective judgment. I do not believe that Kelly Martin should ever be permitted to feign speaking for the Foundation with other users. She can refer people to appropriate pages, of course, and forward communiques, of course, but to be the mouthpiece for the Foundation is not her job in any sense. Tony Sidaway's actions as a clerk have been, so far as I am aware, entirely clean. I have heard (as a person perceived to be on the "other side" from him) of complaints, but none of them have ever held up under investigation. But his actions as an administrator have been frequently unilateral and too often against policy.
View by Geogre 11:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello wikignomes! I don't give a stuff about the rules, please feel free to edit this section, and cast aside the chains that bind you.
brenneman
{L}
13:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Tony Sidaway has a demonstrated history of incivility, tendentious editing, and disruption. All stages of dispute resolution have been attempted, with only temporary changes to the underlying disruptive behavior.
Tony Sidaway has frequently been uncivil to other editors and administrators. Civility was a issue in his request for adminship in March 2005, during the request for comment in October 2005, and again in June 2006. An existing arbitration remedy cautions Tony Sidaway to remain civil. However, Tony Sidaway continues to be incivil. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] Civility warnings are often removed 23 May 2006 [diff] [diff] with incivil edit summaries. [diff] [diff]
Tony Sidaway engages in small-scale edit warring, designed to wear down opposition. This is a long-term pattern of abuse, be it the VfU guideline in October 2005 [25] [26] [27] [28] [29], AfD closes in January [30] [31] [32] [33], section headings in April (with use of admin privileges to solve a content dispute thrown in) [34] [35] (block) [36], over mention of blocking on the signature guideline in May [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43], and in June 2006 over something as trivial as the formatting of a table. [44] [45] [46]
(This is the "doesn't stop when asked" section.) This user does actively use the talk page of articles to announce his reversions [diff] [diff] and user talk page to issue reprimands. [diff] [diff] However often declines to be involved in continuing discussions, even when explicitly asked to do so. [vfu header talk diffs]
The heart of this case, and a perennial cause for dissent in a variety of other forums, is our somewhat nebulous standard for adminship. As we all know, adminship can be granted through the community process at WP:RFA, and can be revoked by the arbitration committee. The problem is that these two forums are increasingly divergent:
A resultant problem is that this is becoming a source of mutual distrust for both parties. It is not uncommon for people who are somewhat in doubt to oppose an RFA because they did not trust the ArbCom to demote the candidate if he does turn out to be problematic later. On the other hand, in the recent Giano debacle it was commented that some arbitrators were reluctant to demote admins because they didn't trust the community to ever reinstate a once-demoted admin.
The circular reasoning is obvious, and the only way to stop the dissent is to reach a compromise. It should be noted, however, that it is not (or not yet) as bad as some people on both extremes appear to think. As I just stated, admin demotion by the ArbCom is becoming more common; and while indeed most renominations of demoted admins have failed, it is important to note that nearly all of the failures were for reasons unrelated to the demotion.
Circular reasoning works both ways. If either party can be convinced to change their standards, the other party will have increased trust in that party and respond by similarly changing their standards. That way we can go back to adminship being No Big Deal. >Radiant< 16:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The below is a list of renominations of ex-admins that failed, but did so for reasons unrelated to the demotion - such as edit warring, sockpuppetry or perceived abuse of process. There are generally a few people that hold a long grudge, but far from enough to sway consensus.
I have ignored the few RFAs that were just a few weeks after the actual demotion ( Karmafist, Carnildo 2 and Everyking). I have also omitted the nominations for KI and Pegasus1138 since the public was not aware that these were in fact former admins. And of course I have omitted the nominations that were succesful.
It seems that any ex-admin demoted by the ArbCom has a snowball's chance of getting reinstated by RFA for the first month or two, and after that is treated by the process mostly like any other candidate. This is good, since an encyclopedia shouldn't hold long-term grudges against enthousiastic contributors.
I'm sorry for the crashing boringness of this post, but I should probably respond to Inksplotch's statement, made in what I take to be a critical tone, that I attempted to influence the actions of the arbcom, since it's the reason I'm named as an involved party. Did I attempt to influence the actions of the ArbCom? Yes. I don't know if it worked, but I'm pleased with myself for trying. I have no notion that he arbcom ought to be or wishes to be insulated from community concerns, up to and including attempts to influence their actions. Did I specifically attempt to use Kelly Martin's surprise call-up of me to catch the arbcom's attention? Yes. My response to KM was primarily an attempt to reach out and get some real communication going with her—to ask her to see her own role and demeanor from new angles, and to take an interest in the damaging perceptions of her communication style—but secondarily it was also an attempt to influence the arbcom. The first was a pitiful failure. [52] I don't know how the second went over, I still have hopes for it.
Several editors, including Tony Sidaway himself
[53], have suggested merging the recently rejected
request for arbitration of Ghirlandajo into this case. I agree, as many statements in it address the same matters of principle, and because the Ghirlandajo kerfuffle adds an illuminating perspective on Tony's blocking practices. Notably, Tony's three-hour
block of Ghirlandajo on September 5 is the twin of his three-hour
block of Giano nine days later, which has been widely discussed in this case. Note also on September 7, chronologically between the two blocks, Tony's threat to block people for "precisely the kind of nonsense that I blocked Ghirlandajo over"
[54]—essentially, a general warning against talking back to him.
These blocks + the block warning were all used in the context of dissenting voices in the matter of Carnildo's re-sysopping. Tony's block summaries and block messages suggest strongly that they functioned as "don't-contradict-me" blocks rather than cooling-down blocks. Empirically, they always inflamed those they were directed at, rather than cool anybody down .
Giano's block has received a whirlwind of attention, so I'll just comment briefly on Ghirlandajo's. Since most commentators didn't think Ghirla's original posts uncivil at all, but merely expressions of his opinion in appropriate fora, I argue that Tony's actions in regard to these posts did not quell disruption and belligerence, but instead whipped it up. For a fuller discussion, please see my own earlier comment in RFAR Ghirlandajo. I ask ArbCom to find that Tony unreasonably provoked Ghirla into a heated (though not incivil or unreasonable) reply which he, Tony, then blocked him for. Such an action against a prolific content contributor, who's widely regarded as much improved and improving in the way he works with others on the site (please see the Ghirlandajo RFAR, passim) is quite destructive, however well-intentioned it may be. Also, more importantly, I ask them to find that editors get to "defy" admins; that they're not obliged to choose between meekness under (what they see as) injustice on the one hand, and a block on the other. It is intolerable for admins to present users with such a choice.
Pious platitude or reality? If Wikipedia is first and foremost an encyclopedia, content is surely king, and excellent content contributors like Giano and Ghirlandajo will be trusted and respected and nurtured and protected by the community, the admins, and the arbcom. In reality Giano has instead, after a long and cheerful wiki career principally spent at WP:FAC, met with a series of indignities this year, from Carnildo's infamous "hate speech" block in February, via Fred Bauder's and Charles Matthews' proposal in July to ban him for an impatient remark to a notorious nuisance editor, followed by a 48-hour block and toe-curling condescension from a newbie admin [72] in August (Note that I mean "newbie" as an excuse for the admin, not a criticism of her), to the three-hour block for "hysterical accusations" from Tony Sidaway in September. To see blocks, bans, or threats of this nature as mere potential hindrances from editing for a few hours or a few days is a grievous failure of imagination. Compare Bunchofgrapes on the workshop page: "Blocks hurt people. They are emotionally damaging, especially for long-time users. Undoing a bad block does not undo that harm. " [73]. Some or perhaps most of these four events were not aggressively intended, but I believe they very amply explain any failure of equanimity in Giano, as well as his loss of enthusiasm for the project. (But then these are the days of many lost enthusiasms, as the pre-history of this RFAr suggests.) Here are specifics of the four events:
(In progress)
One of the reasons I request this aribtration was to examine what, in my mind, constitute personal attacks and incivil behavior through attacks and accusations of unsubstantiated claims. If one claims, user X is a vandal, one is expected to show evidence, or the evidence is expected to be self-evident. Too often in this conflict, people would say, user X is doing this because... and often claiming deliberate malfeasance, collusion with others (cabalism), or actions driven by ego, revenge, or other emotions. In this section I hope to collect diff's of what I feel cross the line into personal attacks and incivility, either because the accusations are baseless, or because the accusations are serious enough to warrant action and the accuser refuses to substantiate their claims.
This may include diff's from the named parties in this case, as well as others who participated in the Giano threads in AN.
Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.
Tony Sidaway is habitualy incivil and often engages in borderline (or not-so-borderline!) personal attacks. Kirill Lokshin 17:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Tony Sidaway often characterizes the actions of other editors in terms that serve to inflame, rather than cool down, conflicts. Kirill Lokshin 17:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This thread on my talk page: User_talk:Lar/Archive_13#Carnildo (as archived) ( or [110] from diffs, includes thread but also unrelated diffs) resulted in Giano being warned for incivility [111] by Kylu ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), and in his subsequently (on not taking a suggestion to cool it well) receiving a block [112] for 48 hours also from Kylu, which was overturned by Bunchofgrapes ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), amid some controversy [113]. This incident happened prior to the events mentioned on the front page of this arbitration page. It is also related to the Carnildo RfA, and there is more backstory, which I can provide if necessary, but I think this is the gist of it.
I think this demonstrates some prior history of incivility, and inability to take suggestions to cool it graciously on the part of Giano. I have subsequently been quoted as saying that no editor, regardless of the awesomeness of his or her contributions, ought to get a free pass regarding their actions, and I assert that Giano, in this incident, essentially did get one, other editors and admins suffered more negative consequences from trying to encourage Giano to be civil than he did.
Note that I choose to present this evidence because I beleive it has bearing on the events of a few days later after Carnildo was promoted. I do not assert it is a major portion of this case or that other evidence is not valid or relevant, and I think others are doing fine at presenting it, but I didn't want this precursor to be overlooked. The implication I am making is that this prior incident may have had some bearing on Giano's state of mind. But since this case seems to be evolving into a case about Tony and Kelly, that may not be all that relevant. ++ Lar: t/ c 19:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
By Doc
Some editors {{ fact}} observe that T. Sidaway carries himself as self appointed spokesman for The powers that be through incivil and initimidating conduct. Some editors fear T. Sidaway gets special treatment due to these alleged personal loyalties. Eg of related recent incident (excerpted):
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.225.253.130 ( talk • contribs)
I wasn't going to post any evidence here, but now the case finally seems to be winding up perhaps it is time for me to have my say, unhindered. This case bears my name, and so must be about me, but I really don't think it is. It seems to me to have been a long awaited opportunity for many people to air grievances. I would like to think it is about the article-writing editors being weary of the ever increasing administrative staff, but it's not. Perhaps it is about the secret cliques who unashamedly meet in private IRC channels and then influence proceedings? - I don't know.
I have read so much about myself over the last days, I don't know where to begin - has there ever been such a mass pile on? However for better or for worse I am still here. I think if I were so wicked I would never have survived so long. I'm glad the only thing that has not been questioned by the various factions is my commitment to the Wikipedia project - because that would have hurt. It's no secret I loathe the current admin culture. Whatever happened to the "It's no big deal" - I feel strongly that all Wikipedians without exception should cut their teeth writing articles, but of course as one assumes more responsibility time is limited. The "No bull" campaign was intended to bring the fact that so few of the administrative staff write, for various reasons, to the forefront, so I'm glad that achieved its intention.
So what of me, the "Giano" of this case? It is no secret I am bad tempered when crossed. I don't think I am desperately rude, a little short and terse perhaps. I don't think I have ever sworn at anyone, but perhaps sometimes I deliver some unwelcome truths. There are many editors who do not wish to be admins but they now seem to be regarded as second class citizens by newbie admins who have barely contributed to the encyclopedia - I am not second class, neither are my colleagues here, and I will not be treated in such a fashion.
One thing that has upset me is the constant reference to my boasts of contributions, because I don't think anywhere have I ever mentioned my own perceived value to the project (other than the small page somewhere, basically for my own reference of my favourite pages), but I would be a liar if I denied I was immensely proud each time a page I have helped appears on the main page. I read often of references to Giano's pages, but there is not one of them which has not been heavily edited by others before it even reaches main space. Compared to Emsworth and his like, I am a beginner.
I've been here since May 2004. I had a couple of earlier names (where as a daft newbie I disclosed too much personal information so moved away). I have seen things change so much in that short time. The most exciting thing has been the influx of the Russians, who have written so much about places untill recently closed to us (perhaps some of them still are). I think not to welcome them, who are so keen to contribute, with open arms, and sometimes, yes, make allowances, would be criminal.
Concluding, I don't think of myself as a superior editor (I merely regurgitate facts from books), but Wikipedia has some fantastic editors who it risks losing at its peril. It seems to me now that IRC is the "in place" to be in order to know what is best for Wikipedia. I have never been there. Giano 21:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.
Not sure if this is useful data, but I made a count of reasons people used to oppose Carnildo's last RFA. The numbers correspond to the oppose !voters, N## refers to the neutral remarks. People who gave multiple reasons are listed multiple times; people who gave no reason (or said 'per all of the above' or somesuch) aren't listed.
Since there is a workshop remedy regarding Kelly Martin, I feel the need to add some evidence here regarding her conduct. Kelly Martin has a record of incivil conduct. Although I realize that she has exercised her right to leave, leaving is not an escape from accountability, and so I feel that it is not inappropriate to still consider this.
Due to this support vote, User:Grue was blocked by Kelly Martin for 24 hours without warning. The block was quickly overturned.
Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Basically, I noted these two posts by John and thought that they weren't best placed in assuming good faith nor in communicating his opinion in the most civil manner. [116] and [117]. I commented on this at John's talk page [118], and the discussion seen disintegrated [119], [120], [121], [122], with User:Anthony cfc noting the tension between us, [123], which didn't help, [124]. Following dispute resolution, I walked away from the discussion after my last comment [125], and hadn't noted John's final remark until now [126]. However, I think that my comment of "The record shows" [127] may provide some insight into John's usage of a similar phrase at the bureaucrats' noticeboard [128].
I'm adding this stuff into evidence because I think it has a bearing on the discussion at the bureaucratic noticeboard regarding Carnildo's promotion. I'm thinking it shows both that John maybe has issues communicating, issues with assumming good faith, issues with civility and also that it may explain or mitigate the "Let the record show comment". I'm only adding this since John has added himself as a party. Hiding Talk 11:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
As my recent contribs (or lack thereof) will attest, I've been somewhat on leave from Wikipedia as a direct result of the general pall of unpleasantness brought up by this and related incidents. Frankly, there's too much drama, scheming, and warring, and it's not worth my time to be involved in it. I have only (briefly) returned to present evidence in defense of Kelly. Since she has been gone there have been some atrocious lies said about her during this Arbitration, and I could not stay quiet and allow her to be slandered so. Thus, I now provide two blog postings by Kelly rebutting the false accusations against her (reprinted with permission).
I made the mistake of looking at the "arbitration" case opened to review the broader circumstances related to my departure from the English Wikipedia. What a train wreck! One of [my detractors] even went so far as to demand that a block log entry that he finds offensive be purged from history to satisfy his tender sensitivities. Fortunately, Brion stood up for sensibility and flatly declared that that request would be denied.
The real problem here is that we have people who believe that their contributions to Wikipedia (whether those contributions be in the form of article authorship or administrative support) excuse them from basic social obligations. I'm as guilty of this as the rest of them; the only difference is that I've agreed to stop doing it. They haven't -- and until they do Wikipedia will not get better.
I noticed statements to the effect that I was "hounded off of Wikipedia". There's some truth to that, but not a lot. I left Wikipedia for my own sanity. I was expending too much energy in negative activity, and I decided that this was bad for me. Toward the end there I definitely did things I regret having done, but what's done is done. It's as much as response to my own excesses as to those of others; I am neither totally accepting nor totally avoiding responsibility for my role in creating the current state of affairs.
In the meantime, I'm waiting on the toolserver to have valid database replicas so I can go back to generating statistics on the databases, and in the meantime I'm continuing to work on my reimplementation of MediaWiki in Java. While the latter will probably never reach fruition, I am learning a great deal about the innards of MediaWiki, which might eventually prove useful. Once I get a bit further I might put my work in progress up on an SVN server, assuming I can figure out how to put up SVN, that is....
Update: One of the [people] who likes to [view] my blog has suggested this summary of the incident. [129]
I've noticed that one of [my detractors] running amok on Wikipedia has taken to claiming that I wasn't even an editor when I was still there. I'm not sure what purpose he has to repeating this [inaccurate statement] -- other than to evidence his own poor connection to reality -- but in the interest of setting the record straight, the following is an incomplete list of the articles I made nontrivial contributions to in the past year (that is, since October 1, 2005):
This is in addition to contributing spelling corrections, markup corrections, or other minor adjustments to literally thousands of articles. It also does not count articles I touched in the course of handling copyright release notices, copyright infringement notices, vandalism management, or special requests from Brad or Danny.
But apparently the above list, or the over 7000 mainspace edits I'd made in the past twelve months (my critic having made barely 1000 mainspace edits in the same timeframe), were not enough to make me an editor.
And to think that the person making this claim is not only considered by many a "valued member of the Wikipedia community" but is being held forth, by himself and by others, as a paragon of virtue that others should emulate. I wasn't aware that [making inaccurate statements] was considered virtuous. If these are truly the moral standards of Wikipedia, Wikipedia is in far darker trouble than even I had envisioned. [130]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyde ( talk • contribs) 23:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
On the strike through:
I like how, because I forgot to sign my post (I haven't edited in ten days), Geogre comes through and immediately tries to discredit everything I've posted. Geogre, you're trying to turn this into some sort of battlefield. You're not helping matters at all; you're simply taking every single opportunity to be as unpleasant, rude, and dismissive as possible. I support Fred's resolution. -- Cyde Weys 18:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the evidence to make it less abrasive because some people were still getting worked up over it over ten days after it was originally posted. It was not my intention to create what some have claimed is an excuse for further incivility. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. -- Cyde Weys 18:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Mailer D iablo 16:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is Giano and his enablers, not anyone else. The current proposed decisions address none of the actual causes of conflict in this mess, as is evidenced by Giano's latest utterly uncivil outburst. Until Giano and his enablers (those who are vociferously defending him for said extreme incivility here) are dealt with, this problem is only going to continue to go on and on and on. I have seen every manner of distortion trotted about in an attempt to make excuses for Giano's behavior, and the lengths I am seeing people go to is sickening. Doc glasgow agrees; he's had enough. How many more editors must we shed until the real root of the problem is addressed?! I've already apologized for bringing that blog posting here, yet people are trying to use that as an excuse for Giano's comments over a week later. Two wrongs don't make a right, and my indiscretion does not excuse Giano's. -- Cyde Weys 03:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
My efforts as a would-be peace-maker through this whole situation haven't accomplished much, but is this type of dialog something that we could please stop having? I fail to see any sort of useful purpose that it could remotely be accomplishing. Newyorkbrad 17:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm speaking to everyone who is still reading here. That includes Cyde and Giano and everyone else. I saw the excerpting from the blog and I considered it to be inappropriate but also largely irrelevant to the issues before the RfAr, and was therefore pleased that it was largely ignored by everyone, particularly the arbitrators. I would have redacted it but I didn't think it appropriate to alter the contents of an /Evidence page; and no one seems to be actively clerking this case (where is ArbClerk Tony Sidaway when we need him - no don't answer that). The question stands, at this point, at this point what is further discussion along these lines going to accomplish? I think it's unlikely to achieve anything except to stir up, for the nth time, drama that would otherwise finally be fading away and I see zero value to doing that. Newyorkbrad 19:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's not flatter ourselves that we have an audience of thousands on this page. If this page had a remaining audience of no one, it might be the best thing for the encyclopedia. As for the suggestion that I haven't done anything, or not enough, in this arbitration, I will let my comments on the /Workshop and /Proposed Decision-Talk pages speak for themselves. Newyorkbrad 19:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.
When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.
As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=5587219&oldid=5584644] [1].
This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.
Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.
If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.
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The Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop. /Workshop provides for comment by parties and others as well as Arbitrators. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators may edit /Proposed decision.
I think that the Arbitration Committee is already more familiar with the Giano case than I. My sole prior experience, more or less, was involvement as a clerk helping to compile a timeline in early February for the case in which Carnildo, amongst others, were desysopped.
I've already described my own involvement in this affair at length publicly, and privately in a brief email to Jimbo, that he has asked to forward to the Committee. The Committee is familiar with my thinking and actions so I won't bother to present evidence on that.
I've always taken great care to divorce my personal actions from those of the arbitration committee, recusing as a clerk when there is the slightest hint of conflict. I have never claimed to be speaking or acting for the arbitration committee except when required to deliver Committee rulings, and I regard the perception that I act with arbitration committee authority as misguided and baseless. It was perhaps insensitive to get involved in some affairs where the parties seemed to have convinced themselves that the arbitrators were at war with the editors and I was their loyal henchman.
The Committee, and many other administrators, are aware of my opinions on good administratorship. Perception is as important as reality. Choosing a controversial sysop for the clerk role, however skilled he may be, is probably not a good idea.
I am not using my sysop bit at present. -- Tony Sidaway 22:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I will offer my views, willingly, but I have to query something before that. My understanding of arbitration is that evidence must be submitted on the evidence page. A private communication between Tony Sidaway and Jimbo Wales, or to the arbitrator's mailing list, or even to each arbitrator's user page, is not public and not put in evidence. Inasmuch as it is a principle of most Anglophone judicial procedures that evidence be given in open court, that there be no secret charge or secret evidence, I object initially to Tony's suggestion that he has offered thoughts which should be considered (evidentiary) and yet are not open to examination by all sides. To be clear, I am no one's prosecutor, no one's "other side," but it would sure help to know what has been said already, so at least, in my evidence, I know what is in contention and what needs to be clarified. Geogre 00:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but, since private communication is going to be a large point in my view, it seems like it's either inappropriate to state it as evidence, above, or inappropriate to have it be private, or inappropriate for the arbitrators to consider. I'm sure it was innocuous, or irrelevant to procedings, but it's rather strange to open one's statement by saying, essentially, "I've written all of you privately, so no need to say anything here." It's as if one were saying, "You all know that I have two pair; let's see how the others bet without knowing this." Geogre 09:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
With everything I write, please understand that I apologize for the length. I am trying to be concise, but the Workshop page is now so full as to be unreadable, so some things here may seem out of place. My apologies, again.
There are two sets of offenses against policy that can be arbitrated, in my view.
There are many of these that have been committed in off-wiki fora. The "#wikipedia-en-admins" IRC channel has been rife with denigration, plotting, and illicit actions. Evidence of these cannot be presented here, and therefore it is up to the arbitrators to either know the subject matter or not, but, for those who do, it establishes mens rea -- the mindset of the crime. The above-named individuals showed not a willingness, but an actual desire, to stop all "process" and to act on individual desires. Those who requested that they follow the rules were derided and placed into an enemies list.
My own view is that this has become an omnibus Rfar, which reduces its potential effectiveness in imposing remedies. However, if I can lay out a particular ideology and issue that underpins all of the abuses, all of the bad behavior, by each of the parties, I should very much like to highlight one feature: secret communication and lobbying in secret to act against policy.
The common element in this is, I think, that private associations, whether those associations are the people who write academic articles, those people who are on ArbCom (or think they are), those people who are bureaucrats, or those people who spend time on the administrator's IRC channel (and say things like, "Who is this Texas Android person? If there is any way to ban him, I want him gone" or "If they don't have diffs, fuck 'em!" or "Major process wonk" or "ArbCom is your mother, whether you know it or not") have allowed themselves to be blinded to the larger group, the project of Wikipedia. Because we are now so large and so crowded and with such diversity of content, we naturally form like-minded circles and get frustrated when our vision of what is undoubtedly true cannot be communicated.
Phil Sandifer's user page announces that he will not read policy or pay attention to it, because it gets in the way of doing what he knows to be correct. Kelly and Tony have acted out that philosophy, but anyone who acts that out is saying that his or her private understanding needs no consultation and that his or her efforts seek no compromise or cooperation. Both Kelly and Tony have put the philosophy into action. The egoism involved has been exaggerated by private communication. First, the two users and others engaged in impropriety on an IRC channel, including revealing sensitive information (the same information that supposedly makes it impossible for an "emeritus" arbitrator to lose access to the mailing list), and the purpose of the channel seemed to be to cooperate in clearing obstacles for the superusers to act without the hindrance of "process wonks." Additionally, both have intimated that there was a secret forum for judging and evaluating other users. That forum may have been the IRC clubhouse, but, in the case of Kelly, it was often intimated that a secret avenue to power was open to her. Even in her own statement about giving up her rights, she insisted that "thousands look to" her every day for "opinions." That statement surpasses hyperbole. It again claims that she has a cache of power and importance that will allow her to swiftly mow down those in her way (if she were not so magnanimous).
What is critical, I think, is that any group that allows its friends and friendship to carve out a private discussion area, or which believes that it must communicate in private, or which sets up "invitation only" discussion areas is a group that is setting up an echo chamber. If such discussions are about private matters, then they are fine. If they are about site-wide issues, then the voices of the entire site are necessary. May Gmaxwell and Mindspillage talk to each other? Of course they may. They may not plot, nor use their association to suggest that they have extra special powers. My belief is that the bureaucrats who decided on "discretion" were flat wrong. One can use discretion on the deletion of an article, because WP:DRV exists to hash out community consensus, and because the action can be easily reversed. However, a small group cannot act on "discretion" about a position that is defined as "a person trusted by the community." A person can act on personal judgment if the issue can be reviewed and reversed, if the question is a single item, but blocking established users should never be a personal decision, whether that person is Carnildo, Fred Bauder, Tony Sidaway, or me. The greater the effect, the greater the need for review before hand and the more improper it is to silence the voices of others. The damage of losing a new account is worrying, but the damage in losing a long-time contributor is horrifying. The risk of losing an administrator (such as Paul August, Filiocht, ALoan, or, I hope, myself) should be unimaginable, because each step up is an investment of time, trust, and oversight. To allow Tony Sidaway to unilaterally block Giano for disagreement, or for a group on an invisible IRC channel to collude to plan for getting rid of Giano, is an atrocious offense. For Kelly Martin to decide that her own view of the editing patterns of another user are such that revealing personal information is justified is unspeakable. All of these bad actions, I think, come from isolation, from not listening to the voices of the site.
I do not think that IRC channels do much good, but invitation-only channels are asking for clubhouses. That their contents cannot be reported in arbitration is a loophole that allows for the most pernicious collusion. I do not think that the arbitrator's mailing list should be entirely invisible, as it is a false dichotomy to suppose that complete invisibility and complete access are the only options. A redacted summary would be possible. However, if it is to remain as it is now, then it must be policed so that it never carries content about things that are not already arbitration cases. If the site were assured that that was the policy, then no one could be bluffed or confused by the next "Kelly's" statements into believing that "mother" is coming to punish the lowly administrators for acting according to their collective judgment. I do not believe that Kelly Martin should ever be permitted to feign speaking for the Foundation with other users. She can refer people to appropriate pages, of course, and forward communiques, of course, but to be the mouthpiece for the Foundation is not her job in any sense. Tony Sidaway's actions as a clerk have been, so far as I am aware, entirely clean. I have heard (as a person perceived to be on the "other side" from him) of complaints, but none of them have ever held up under investigation. But his actions as an administrator have been frequently unilateral and too often against policy.
View by Geogre 11:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello wikignomes! I don't give a stuff about the rules, please feel free to edit this section, and cast aside the chains that bind you.
brenneman
{L}
13:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Tony Sidaway has a demonstrated history of incivility, tendentious editing, and disruption. All stages of dispute resolution have been attempted, with only temporary changes to the underlying disruptive behavior.
Tony Sidaway has frequently been uncivil to other editors and administrators. Civility was a issue in his request for adminship in March 2005, during the request for comment in October 2005, and again in June 2006. An existing arbitration remedy cautions Tony Sidaway to remain civil. However, Tony Sidaway continues to be incivil. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] Civility warnings are often removed 23 May 2006 [diff] [diff] with incivil edit summaries. [diff] [diff]
Tony Sidaway engages in small-scale edit warring, designed to wear down opposition. This is a long-term pattern of abuse, be it the VfU guideline in October 2005 [25] [26] [27] [28] [29], AfD closes in January [30] [31] [32] [33], section headings in April (with use of admin privileges to solve a content dispute thrown in) [34] [35] (block) [36], over mention of blocking on the signature guideline in May [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43], and in June 2006 over something as trivial as the formatting of a table. [44] [45] [46]
(This is the "doesn't stop when asked" section.) This user does actively use the talk page of articles to announce his reversions [diff] [diff] and user talk page to issue reprimands. [diff] [diff] However often declines to be involved in continuing discussions, even when explicitly asked to do so. [vfu header talk diffs]
The heart of this case, and a perennial cause for dissent in a variety of other forums, is our somewhat nebulous standard for adminship. As we all know, adminship can be granted through the community process at WP:RFA, and can be revoked by the arbitration committee. The problem is that these two forums are increasingly divergent:
A resultant problem is that this is becoming a source of mutual distrust for both parties. It is not uncommon for people who are somewhat in doubt to oppose an RFA because they did not trust the ArbCom to demote the candidate if he does turn out to be problematic later. On the other hand, in the recent Giano debacle it was commented that some arbitrators were reluctant to demote admins because they didn't trust the community to ever reinstate a once-demoted admin.
The circular reasoning is obvious, and the only way to stop the dissent is to reach a compromise. It should be noted, however, that it is not (or not yet) as bad as some people on both extremes appear to think. As I just stated, admin demotion by the ArbCom is becoming more common; and while indeed most renominations of demoted admins have failed, it is important to note that nearly all of the failures were for reasons unrelated to the demotion.
Circular reasoning works both ways. If either party can be convinced to change their standards, the other party will have increased trust in that party and respond by similarly changing their standards. That way we can go back to adminship being No Big Deal. >Radiant< 16:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The below is a list of renominations of ex-admins that failed, but did so for reasons unrelated to the demotion - such as edit warring, sockpuppetry or perceived abuse of process. There are generally a few people that hold a long grudge, but far from enough to sway consensus.
I have ignored the few RFAs that were just a few weeks after the actual demotion ( Karmafist, Carnildo 2 and Everyking). I have also omitted the nominations for KI and Pegasus1138 since the public was not aware that these were in fact former admins. And of course I have omitted the nominations that were succesful.
It seems that any ex-admin demoted by the ArbCom has a snowball's chance of getting reinstated by RFA for the first month or two, and after that is treated by the process mostly like any other candidate. This is good, since an encyclopedia shouldn't hold long-term grudges against enthousiastic contributors.
I'm sorry for the crashing boringness of this post, but I should probably respond to Inksplotch's statement, made in what I take to be a critical tone, that I attempted to influence the actions of the arbcom, since it's the reason I'm named as an involved party. Did I attempt to influence the actions of the ArbCom? Yes. I don't know if it worked, but I'm pleased with myself for trying. I have no notion that he arbcom ought to be or wishes to be insulated from community concerns, up to and including attempts to influence their actions. Did I specifically attempt to use Kelly Martin's surprise call-up of me to catch the arbcom's attention? Yes. My response to KM was primarily an attempt to reach out and get some real communication going with her—to ask her to see her own role and demeanor from new angles, and to take an interest in the damaging perceptions of her communication style—but secondarily it was also an attempt to influence the arbcom. The first was a pitiful failure. [52] I don't know how the second went over, I still have hopes for it.
Several editors, including Tony Sidaway himself
[53], have suggested merging the recently rejected
request for arbitration of Ghirlandajo into this case. I agree, as many statements in it address the same matters of principle, and because the Ghirlandajo kerfuffle adds an illuminating perspective on Tony's blocking practices. Notably, Tony's three-hour
block of Ghirlandajo on September 5 is the twin of his three-hour
block of Giano nine days later, which has been widely discussed in this case. Note also on September 7, chronologically between the two blocks, Tony's threat to block people for "precisely the kind of nonsense that I blocked Ghirlandajo over"
[54]—essentially, a general warning against talking back to him.
These blocks + the block warning were all used in the context of dissenting voices in the matter of Carnildo's re-sysopping. Tony's block summaries and block messages suggest strongly that they functioned as "don't-contradict-me" blocks rather than cooling-down blocks. Empirically, they always inflamed those they were directed at, rather than cool anybody down .
Giano's block has received a whirlwind of attention, so I'll just comment briefly on Ghirlandajo's. Since most commentators didn't think Ghirla's original posts uncivil at all, but merely expressions of his opinion in appropriate fora, I argue that Tony's actions in regard to these posts did not quell disruption and belligerence, but instead whipped it up. For a fuller discussion, please see my own earlier comment in RFAR Ghirlandajo. I ask ArbCom to find that Tony unreasonably provoked Ghirla into a heated (though not incivil or unreasonable) reply which he, Tony, then blocked him for. Such an action against a prolific content contributor, who's widely regarded as much improved and improving in the way he works with others on the site (please see the Ghirlandajo RFAR, passim) is quite destructive, however well-intentioned it may be. Also, more importantly, I ask them to find that editors get to "defy" admins; that they're not obliged to choose between meekness under (what they see as) injustice on the one hand, and a block on the other. It is intolerable for admins to present users with such a choice.
Pious platitude or reality? If Wikipedia is first and foremost an encyclopedia, content is surely king, and excellent content contributors like Giano and Ghirlandajo will be trusted and respected and nurtured and protected by the community, the admins, and the arbcom. In reality Giano has instead, after a long and cheerful wiki career principally spent at WP:FAC, met with a series of indignities this year, from Carnildo's infamous "hate speech" block in February, via Fred Bauder's and Charles Matthews' proposal in July to ban him for an impatient remark to a notorious nuisance editor, followed by a 48-hour block and toe-curling condescension from a newbie admin [72] in August (Note that I mean "newbie" as an excuse for the admin, not a criticism of her), to the three-hour block for "hysterical accusations" from Tony Sidaway in September. To see blocks, bans, or threats of this nature as mere potential hindrances from editing for a few hours or a few days is a grievous failure of imagination. Compare Bunchofgrapes on the workshop page: "Blocks hurt people. They are emotionally damaging, especially for long-time users. Undoing a bad block does not undo that harm. " [73]. Some or perhaps most of these four events were not aggressively intended, but I believe they very amply explain any failure of equanimity in Giano, as well as his loss of enthusiasm for the project. (But then these are the days of many lost enthusiasms, as the pre-history of this RFAr suggests.) Here are specifics of the four events:
(In progress)
One of the reasons I request this aribtration was to examine what, in my mind, constitute personal attacks and incivil behavior through attacks and accusations of unsubstantiated claims. If one claims, user X is a vandal, one is expected to show evidence, or the evidence is expected to be self-evident. Too often in this conflict, people would say, user X is doing this because... and often claiming deliberate malfeasance, collusion with others (cabalism), or actions driven by ego, revenge, or other emotions. In this section I hope to collect diff's of what I feel cross the line into personal attacks and incivility, either because the accusations are baseless, or because the accusations are serious enough to warrant action and the accuser refuses to substantiate their claims.
This may include diff's from the named parties in this case, as well as others who participated in the Giano threads in AN.
Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.
Tony Sidaway is habitualy incivil and often engages in borderline (or not-so-borderline!) personal attacks. Kirill Lokshin 17:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Tony Sidaway often characterizes the actions of other editors in terms that serve to inflame, rather than cool down, conflicts. Kirill Lokshin 17:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This thread on my talk page: User_talk:Lar/Archive_13#Carnildo (as archived) ( or [110] from diffs, includes thread but also unrelated diffs) resulted in Giano being warned for incivility [111] by Kylu ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), and in his subsequently (on not taking a suggestion to cool it well) receiving a block [112] for 48 hours also from Kylu, which was overturned by Bunchofgrapes ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), amid some controversy [113]. This incident happened prior to the events mentioned on the front page of this arbitration page. It is also related to the Carnildo RfA, and there is more backstory, which I can provide if necessary, but I think this is the gist of it.
I think this demonstrates some prior history of incivility, and inability to take suggestions to cool it graciously on the part of Giano. I have subsequently been quoted as saying that no editor, regardless of the awesomeness of his or her contributions, ought to get a free pass regarding their actions, and I assert that Giano, in this incident, essentially did get one, other editors and admins suffered more negative consequences from trying to encourage Giano to be civil than he did.
Note that I choose to present this evidence because I beleive it has bearing on the events of a few days later after Carnildo was promoted. I do not assert it is a major portion of this case or that other evidence is not valid or relevant, and I think others are doing fine at presenting it, but I didn't want this precursor to be overlooked. The implication I am making is that this prior incident may have had some bearing on Giano's state of mind. But since this case seems to be evolving into a case about Tony and Kelly, that may not be all that relevant. ++ Lar: t/ c 19:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
By Doc
Some editors {{ fact}} observe that T. Sidaway carries himself as self appointed spokesman for The powers that be through incivil and initimidating conduct. Some editors fear T. Sidaway gets special treatment due to these alleged personal loyalties. Eg of related recent incident (excerpted):
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.225.253.130 ( talk • contribs)
I wasn't going to post any evidence here, but now the case finally seems to be winding up perhaps it is time for me to have my say, unhindered. This case bears my name, and so must be about me, but I really don't think it is. It seems to me to have been a long awaited opportunity for many people to air grievances. I would like to think it is about the article-writing editors being weary of the ever increasing administrative staff, but it's not. Perhaps it is about the secret cliques who unashamedly meet in private IRC channels and then influence proceedings? - I don't know.
I have read so much about myself over the last days, I don't know where to begin - has there ever been such a mass pile on? However for better or for worse I am still here. I think if I were so wicked I would never have survived so long. I'm glad the only thing that has not been questioned by the various factions is my commitment to the Wikipedia project - because that would have hurt. It's no secret I loathe the current admin culture. Whatever happened to the "It's no big deal" - I feel strongly that all Wikipedians without exception should cut their teeth writing articles, but of course as one assumes more responsibility time is limited. The "No bull" campaign was intended to bring the fact that so few of the administrative staff write, for various reasons, to the forefront, so I'm glad that achieved its intention.
So what of me, the "Giano" of this case? It is no secret I am bad tempered when crossed. I don't think I am desperately rude, a little short and terse perhaps. I don't think I have ever sworn at anyone, but perhaps sometimes I deliver some unwelcome truths. There are many editors who do not wish to be admins but they now seem to be regarded as second class citizens by newbie admins who have barely contributed to the encyclopedia - I am not second class, neither are my colleagues here, and I will not be treated in such a fashion.
One thing that has upset me is the constant reference to my boasts of contributions, because I don't think anywhere have I ever mentioned my own perceived value to the project (other than the small page somewhere, basically for my own reference of my favourite pages), but I would be a liar if I denied I was immensely proud each time a page I have helped appears on the main page. I read often of references to Giano's pages, but there is not one of them which has not been heavily edited by others before it even reaches main space. Compared to Emsworth and his like, I am a beginner.
I've been here since May 2004. I had a couple of earlier names (where as a daft newbie I disclosed too much personal information so moved away). I have seen things change so much in that short time. The most exciting thing has been the influx of the Russians, who have written so much about places untill recently closed to us (perhaps some of them still are). I think not to welcome them, who are so keen to contribute, with open arms, and sometimes, yes, make allowances, would be criminal.
Concluding, I don't think of myself as a superior editor (I merely regurgitate facts from books), but Wikipedia has some fantastic editors who it risks losing at its peril. It seems to me now that IRC is the "in place" to be in order to know what is best for Wikipedia. I have never been there. Giano 21:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.
Not sure if this is useful data, but I made a count of reasons people used to oppose Carnildo's last RFA. The numbers correspond to the oppose !voters, N## refers to the neutral remarks. People who gave multiple reasons are listed multiple times; people who gave no reason (or said 'per all of the above' or somesuch) aren't listed.
Since there is a workshop remedy regarding Kelly Martin, I feel the need to add some evidence here regarding her conduct. Kelly Martin has a record of incivil conduct. Although I realize that she has exercised her right to leave, leaving is not an escape from accountability, and so I feel that it is not inappropriate to still consider this.
Due to this support vote, User:Grue was blocked by Kelly Martin for 24 hours without warning. The block was quickly overturned.
Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Basically, I noted these two posts by John and thought that they weren't best placed in assuming good faith nor in communicating his opinion in the most civil manner. [116] and [117]. I commented on this at John's talk page [118], and the discussion seen disintegrated [119], [120], [121], [122], with User:Anthony cfc noting the tension between us, [123], which didn't help, [124]. Following dispute resolution, I walked away from the discussion after my last comment [125], and hadn't noted John's final remark until now [126]. However, I think that my comment of "The record shows" [127] may provide some insight into John's usage of a similar phrase at the bureaucrats' noticeboard [128].
I'm adding this stuff into evidence because I think it has a bearing on the discussion at the bureaucratic noticeboard regarding Carnildo's promotion. I'm thinking it shows both that John maybe has issues communicating, issues with assumming good faith, issues with civility and also that it may explain or mitigate the "Let the record show comment". I'm only adding this since John has added himself as a party. Hiding Talk 11:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
As my recent contribs (or lack thereof) will attest, I've been somewhat on leave from Wikipedia as a direct result of the general pall of unpleasantness brought up by this and related incidents. Frankly, there's too much drama, scheming, and warring, and it's not worth my time to be involved in it. I have only (briefly) returned to present evidence in defense of Kelly. Since she has been gone there have been some atrocious lies said about her during this Arbitration, and I could not stay quiet and allow her to be slandered so. Thus, I now provide two blog postings by Kelly rebutting the false accusations against her (reprinted with permission).
I made the mistake of looking at the "arbitration" case opened to review the broader circumstances related to my departure from the English Wikipedia. What a train wreck! One of [my detractors] even went so far as to demand that a block log entry that he finds offensive be purged from history to satisfy his tender sensitivities. Fortunately, Brion stood up for sensibility and flatly declared that that request would be denied.
The real problem here is that we have people who believe that their contributions to Wikipedia (whether those contributions be in the form of article authorship or administrative support) excuse them from basic social obligations. I'm as guilty of this as the rest of them; the only difference is that I've agreed to stop doing it. They haven't -- and until they do Wikipedia will not get better.
I noticed statements to the effect that I was "hounded off of Wikipedia". There's some truth to that, but not a lot. I left Wikipedia for my own sanity. I was expending too much energy in negative activity, and I decided that this was bad for me. Toward the end there I definitely did things I regret having done, but what's done is done. It's as much as response to my own excesses as to those of others; I am neither totally accepting nor totally avoiding responsibility for my role in creating the current state of affairs.
In the meantime, I'm waiting on the toolserver to have valid database replicas so I can go back to generating statistics on the databases, and in the meantime I'm continuing to work on my reimplementation of MediaWiki in Java. While the latter will probably never reach fruition, I am learning a great deal about the innards of MediaWiki, which might eventually prove useful. Once I get a bit further I might put my work in progress up on an SVN server, assuming I can figure out how to put up SVN, that is....
Update: One of the [people] who likes to [view] my blog has suggested this summary of the incident. [129]
I've noticed that one of [my detractors] running amok on Wikipedia has taken to claiming that I wasn't even an editor when I was still there. I'm not sure what purpose he has to repeating this [inaccurate statement] -- other than to evidence his own poor connection to reality -- but in the interest of setting the record straight, the following is an incomplete list of the articles I made nontrivial contributions to in the past year (that is, since October 1, 2005):
This is in addition to contributing spelling corrections, markup corrections, or other minor adjustments to literally thousands of articles. It also does not count articles I touched in the course of handling copyright release notices, copyright infringement notices, vandalism management, or special requests from Brad or Danny.
But apparently the above list, or the over 7000 mainspace edits I'd made in the past twelve months (my critic having made barely 1000 mainspace edits in the same timeframe), were not enough to make me an editor.
And to think that the person making this claim is not only considered by many a "valued member of the Wikipedia community" but is being held forth, by himself and by others, as a paragon of virtue that others should emulate. I wasn't aware that [making inaccurate statements] was considered virtuous. If these are truly the moral standards of Wikipedia, Wikipedia is in far darker trouble than even I had envisioned. [130]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyde ( talk • contribs) 23:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
On the strike through:
I like how, because I forgot to sign my post (I haven't edited in ten days), Geogre comes through and immediately tries to discredit everything I've posted. Geogre, you're trying to turn this into some sort of battlefield. You're not helping matters at all; you're simply taking every single opportunity to be as unpleasant, rude, and dismissive as possible. I support Fred's resolution. -- Cyde Weys 18:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the evidence to make it less abrasive because some people were still getting worked up over it over ten days after it was originally posted. It was not my intention to create what some have claimed is an excuse for further incivility. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. -- Cyde Weys 18:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Mailer D iablo 16:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem here is Giano and his enablers, not anyone else. The current proposed decisions address none of the actual causes of conflict in this mess, as is evidenced by Giano's latest utterly uncivil outburst. Until Giano and his enablers (those who are vociferously defending him for said extreme incivility here) are dealt with, this problem is only going to continue to go on and on and on. I have seen every manner of distortion trotted about in an attempt to make excuses for Giano's behavior, and the lengths I am seeing people go to is sickening. Doc glasgow agrees; he's had enough. How many more editors must we shed until the real root of the problem is addressed?! I've already apologized for bringing that blog posting here, yet people are trying to use that as an excuse for Giano's comments over a week later. Two wrongs don't make a right, and my indiscretion does not excuse Giano's. -- Cyde Weys 03:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
My efforts as a would-be peace-maker through this whole situation haven't accomplished much, but is this type of dialog something that we could please stop having? I fail to see any sort of useful purpose that it could remotely be accomplishing. Newyorkbrad 17:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm speaking to everyone who is still reading here. That includes Cyde and Giano and everyone else. I saw the excerpting from the blog and I considered it to be inappropriate but also largely irrelevant to the issues before the RfAr, and was therefore pleased that it was largely ignored by everyone, particularly the arbitrators. I would have redacted it but I didn't think it appropriate to alter the contents of an /Evidence page; and no one seems to be actively clerking this case (where is ArbClerk Tony Sidaway when we need him - no don't answer that). The question stands, at this point, at this point what is further discussion along these lines going to accomplish? I think it's unlikely to achieve anything except to stir up, for the nth time, drama that would otherwise finally be fading away and I see zero value to doing that. Newyorkbrad 19:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's not flatter ourselves that we have an audience of thousands on this page. If this page had a remaining audience of no one, it might be the best thing for the encyclopedia. As for the suggestion that I haven't done anything, or not enough, in this arbitration, I will let my comments on the /Workshop and /Proposed Decision-Talk pages speak for themselves. Newyorkbrad 19:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)