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May 2 Information
Hello, I hope you are well, I would have liked to know how do you say "distress" in Icelandic and Esperanto, please ? Thank you. 2A01:CB0C:38C:9F00:FCE:7583:AAF1:744F ( talk) 16:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- It's a bit unclear which sense of "distress" you would refer to, but according to Wiktionary, The Icelandic word is óþægindi /ˈouːθai(ː)jɪntɪ/ (roughly 'ouwe-thighinti ) and the Esperanto word angoro [anˈɡoro] (pronounced similar to Italian or Spanish, without a ng-sound, roughly un-goro). 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 16:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Besides human translation (expensive) and automatic translation (cheap, but often poor results); what tools (software or any procedure) do linguists use to understand a foreign text, when they don't master the language? Would they go word by word and check a dictionary? Would they generate some kind of automatic grammatical analysis? Bumptump ( talk) 18:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- This article may be of interest to you. -- Jayron 32 18:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- An English-speaking linguist who is a specialist in, say, Old Norse, will probably not have much luck deciphering the meaning of a text in Sumerian, also not when equipped with a dictionary and grammar of the language. Being a linguist will not give them much of an advantage. Without a reasonable degree of mastery of the language, generating automatic grammatical analysis is out of the question. They'll basically have to learn the language like anybody else. -- Lambiam 19:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
In English, envelope (a word beginning with en of French origin) is usually pronounced as one would expect. But ensemble (another word of this kind) is pronounced "onsomble". Are there lots of English words beginning with en that are of French origin whose pronunciation varies sometimes?? (Any word that meets this criterion is sufficient; there's no need to limit this discussion between these 2 words.) Georgia guy ( talk) 19:14, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- @ Georgia guy: "Envelope": take your pick from /ˈɛnvəˌloʊp/ or /ˈɒnvəˌloʊp/ (see [1]). Bazza ( talk) 19:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- CEPD18 has enclave, endive, envoy. Nardog ( talk) 20:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- I've heard my fellow Americans say either "en-velope" or "on-velope", possibly depending on where they live or what their education level is. It's like saying "roof" to rhyme with "goof" or "good". Or saying "often" as "off-ten" vs. "off-en". Or "route" as "rout" or "root" (to rhyme with "goof", not "good"). ←
Baseball Bugs
What's up, Doc?
carrots→
01:47, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Pronunciation is the route of all evil! Clarityfiend ( talk) 02:34, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- There are not many en- words with dual pronunciations, but another one is envoy, with US pronunciations / ˈɛn.vɔɪ/ and / ˈɑn.vɔɪ/. -- Lambiam 07:22, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- I thought it might be due to how long ago the word (in some form) was adopted into English, with "more French" pronounciations being more recent, but to my surprise, the dictionary of word origins I consulted says "envelope" was adopted in the 18th century but "ensemble" in the 15th. I suspect it might be down to frequency of usage: "envelope" is a common word that (particularly in the "age of mail", to coin a term) most people used frequently, but "ensemble" is quite specialised, so much so that, though BrE with only 'O' Level French (50 years out-of-date) I sometimes pronounce it fully as a French word. Pretentious? Moi? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 ( talk) 07:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Curiously, the noun "énvelope" has two pronunciations, but the verb "envélope" has only one. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries]
08:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Because in English, vowels tend to be reduced in unstressed syllables; we only really pronounce stressed vowels carefully. So depending on how your particular dialect may pronounce the "en" at the beginning will vary because it is stressed, but when it is in an unstressed position, it just becomes some minor variation of a
schwa. --
Jayron
32
11:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think this rule does not apply to the unstressed first syllable of
ensemble. --
Lambiam
20:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Mostly because it's one of those words in English where the French pronunciation is (to some approximation) maintained. Ensemble, croissant, bouquet, words like that tend to retain some of the original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics. Not every word in English (or any language) rigidly obeys any strict rules. --
Jayron
32
09:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I pronounce some words the French way, e.g. envelope, corps, café, route, croissant, coup d'état, main-gauche and baguette.
Sleigh (
talk)
22:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Most English speakers do. I've never (except in jest) heard things like "COOP-DUH-TAT" instead of "COO-DAY-TAH", for example. --
Jayron
32
12:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If we'd split hairs, it'd technically be an Anglified French way, though, as the phonetic systems of French and English are rather different...
惑乱 Wakuran (
talk)
14:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If I hadn't already split those hairs already, your comment would be less redundant. You see, when I said "original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics" what I actually meant was "original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics" I hope that clarifies matters. -- Jayron 32 15:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If we'd split hairs, it'd technically be an Anglified French way, though, as the phonetic systems of French and English are rather different...
惑乱 Wakuran (
talk)
14:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Most English speakers do. I've never (except in jest) heard things like "COOP-DUH-TAT" instead of "COO-DAY-TAH", for example. --
Jayron
32
12:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- I pronounce some words the French way, e.g. envelope, corps, café, route, croissant, coup d'état, main-gauche and baguette.
Sleigh (
talk)
22:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Mostly because it's one of those words in English where the French pronunciation is (to some approximation) maintained. Ensemble, croissant, bouquet, words like that tend to retain some of the original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics. Not every word in English (or any language) rigidly obeys any strict rules. --
Jayron
32
09:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think this rule does not apply to the unstressed first syllable of
ensemble. --
Lambiam
20:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Because in English, vowels tend to be reduced in unstressed syllables; we only really pronounce stressed vowels carefully. So depending on how your particular dialect may pronounce the "en" at the beginning will vary because it is stressed, but when it is in an unstressed position, it just becomes some minor variation of a
schwa. --
Jayron
32
11:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Entrepreneur. — Kpalion (talk) 18:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < May 1 | << Apr | May | Jun >> | May 3 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
May 2 Information
Hello, I hope you are well, I would have liked to know how do you say "distress" in Icelandic and Esperanto, please ? Thank you. 2A01:CB0C:38C:9F00:FCE:7583:AAF1:744F ( talk) 16:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- It's a bit unclear which sense of "distress" you would refer to, but according to Wiktionary, The Icelandic word is óþægindi /ˈouːθai(ː)jɪntɪ/ (roughly 'ouwe-thighinti ) and the Esperanto word angoro [anˈɡoro] (pronounced similar to Italian or Spanish, without a ng-sound, roughly un-goro). 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 16:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Besides human translation (expensive) and automatic translation (cheap, but often poor results); what tools (software or any procedure) do linguists use to understand a foreign text, when they don't master the language? Would they go word by word and check a dictionary? Would they generate some kind of automatic grammatical analysis? Bumptump ( talk) 18:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- This article may be of interest to you. -- Jayron 32 18:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- An English-speaking linguist who is a specialist in, say, Old Norse, will probably not have much luck deciphering the meaning of a text in Sumerian, also not when equipped with a dictionary and grammar of the language. Being a linguist will not give them much of an advantage. Without a reasonable degree of mastery of the language, generating automatic grammatical analysis is out of the question. They'll basically have to learn the language like anybody else. -- Lambiam 19:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
In English, envelope (a word beginning with en of French origin) is usually pronounced as one would expect. But ensemble (another word of this kind) is pronounced "onsomble". Are there lots of English words beginning with en that are of French origin whose pronunciation varies sometimes?? (Any word that meets this criterion is sufficient; there's no need to limit this discussion between these 2 words.) Georgia guy ( talk) 19:14, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- @ Georgia guy: "Envelope": take your pick from /ˈɛnvəˌloʊp/ or /ˈɒnvəˌloʊp/ (see [1]). Bazza ( talk) 19:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- CEPD18 has enclave, endive, envoy. Nardog ( talk) 20:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
- I've heard my fellow Americans say either "en-velope" or "on-velope", possibly depending on where they live or what their education level is. It's like saying "roof" to rhyme with "goof" or "good". Or saying "often" as "off-ten" vs. "off-en". Or "route" as "rout" or "root" (to rhyme with "goof", not "good"). ←
Baseball Bugs
What's up, Doc?
carrots→
01:47, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Pronunciation is the route of all evil! Clarityfiend ( talk) 02:34, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- There are not many en- words with dual pronunciations, but another one is envoy, with US pronunciations / ˈɛn.vɔɪ/ and / ˈɑn.vɔɪ/. -- Lambiam 07:22, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- I thought it might be due to how long ago the word (in some form) was adopted into English, with "more French" pronounciations being more recent, but to my surprise, the dictionary of word origins I consulted says "envelope" was adopted in the 18th century but "ensemble" in the 15th. I suspect it might be down to frequency of usage: "envelope" is a common word that (particularly in the "age of mail", to coin a term) most people used frequently, but "ensemble" is quite specialised, so much so that, though BrE with only 'O' Level French (50 years out-of-date) I sometimes pronounce it fully as a French word. Pretentious? Moi? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 ( talk) 07:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Curiously, the noun "énvelope" has two pronunciations, but the verb "envélope" has only one. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries]
08:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Because in English, vowels tend to be reduced in unstressed syllables; we only really pronounce stressed vowels carefully. So depending on how your particular dialect may pronounce the "en" at the beginning will vary because it is stressed, but when it is in an unstressed position, it just becomes some minor variation of a
schwa. --
Jayron
32
11:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think this rule does not apply to the unstressed first syllable of
ensemble. --
Lambiam
20:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Mostly because it's one of those words in English where the French pronunciation is (to some approximation) maintained. Ensemble, croissant, bouquet, words like that tend to retain some of the original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics. Not every word in English (or any language) rigidly obeys any strict rules. --
Jayron
32
09:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I pronounce some words the French way, e.g. envelope, corps, café, route, croissant, coup d'état, main-gauche and baguette.
Sleigh (
talk)
22:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Most English speakers do. I've never (except in jest) heard things like "COOP-DUH-TAT" instead of "COO-DAY-TAH", for example. --
Jayron
32
12:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If we'd split hairs, it'd technically be an Anglified French way, though, as the phonetic systems of French and English are rather different...
惑乱 Wakuran (
talk)
14:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If I hadn't already split those hairs already, your comment would be less redundant. You see, when I said "original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics" what I actually meant was "original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics" I hope that clarifies matters. -- Jayron 32 15:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If we'd split hairs, it'd technically be an Anglified French way, though, as the phonetic systems of French and English are rather different...
惑乱 Wakuran (
talk)
14:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Most English speakers do. I've never (except in jest) heard things like "COOP-DUH-TAT" instead of "COO-DAY-TAH", for example. --
Jayron
32
12:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- I pronounce some words the French way, e.g. envelope, corps, café, route, croissant, coup d'état, main-gauche and baguette.
Sleigh (
talk)
22:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Mostly because it's one of those words in English where the French pronunciation is (to some approximation) maintained. Ensemble, croissant, bouquet, words like that tend to retain some of the original French pronunciation, but approximated using English phonemics. Not every word in English (or any language) rigidly obeys any strict rules. --
Jayron
32
09:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think this rule does not apply to the unstressed first syllable of
ensemble. --
Lambiam
20:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Because in English, vowels tend to be reduced in unstressed syllables; we only really pronounce stressed vowels carefully. So depending on how your particular dialect may pronounce the "en" at the beginning will vary because it is stressed, but when it is in an unstressed position, it just becomes some minor variation of a
schwa. --
Jayron
32
11:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- Entrepreneur. — Kpalion (talk) 18:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)