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September 24 Information
The in front of abbreviations
I heard you can ask language questions here. Should you write "SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry" or "The SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry"? TIA
ImTheIP (
talk)
08:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
ImTheIP -- BBC and NATO are both acronyms, both commonly preceded by "the" in their full form when used in a sentence ("the British Broadcasting Corporation", "the North Atlantic Treaty organization").
AnonMoos (
talk)
10:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes they are, and we do indeed refer to "the BBC"; but not to "the NATO". How to tell whether to include the "the" seems to be the original question.
Bazza (
talk)
10:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
NATO is normally pronounced like a word ("Nayto"), whereas BBC is pronounced with each letter individually. Could that be relevant?
Yes, there are schools of thought and climates of opinion about this. (I went to the best school, naturally.) But my starting point is that any other thing called
-onym is a word. Not just a name or a title, but a word. BBC, FBI, CBS etc are not words in the traditional sense. They might get counted as "words" in a word count of a document, but that's about it. They might even get possessivised ("the BBC's charter"), but that means little when we now hear atrocities like "He and I's father". Besides, I'd argue that what's being possessivised in my BBC example is just C, not the whole expression BBC. Others are free to differ. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]23:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)reply
There is no general rule or convention. The best may be to follow the usage of the organization itself: "The SPLC is a catalyst for racial justice ...",[1] "The SPLC stands up for ...",[2] "Each year since 1990, the SPLC has published ...".[3] However, they themselves are not 100% consistent: "SPLC is a nonprofit, tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization".[4] --
Lambiam09:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes, or the style guide of the national press association in your country. If the US, I think there are two, but just checking what the Associated Press does, it seems they include "the" nearly 4/5 of the time for this particular organization, based on ghits.
70.67.193.176 (
talk)
16:28, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
It might not be best to follow the usage of the organization itself. For example I understand that the CIA is sometimes called just CIA by insiders, but omission of the definite article seems aggrandizing and inappropriate to this outsider.
Temerarius (
talk)
20:34, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
From the CIA's website: "The CIA is an independent agency responsible for ..."[5] and "Like all government agencies, the CIA was not created overnight".[6] --
Lambiam11:27, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
French names for countries seem to be a similarly mixed bag. Some have the definite article in front (Le, La, Les, L'), but many don't. I think one just has to memorise them. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]00:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Except it's not "the Ukraine" any more. That applied when it was a region of Russia, and continued after it became a separate Soviet republic, but ever since it became an independent sovereign nation in the 1990s it's just "Ukraine" now. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]16:45, 25 September 2020 (UTC)reply
This gets back to my point about French names for countries. In English, the use of the definite article is very much the exception. But in French, it's almost universal (more so than I thought above; and to boot, one has to know whether it's le, la or les) – except for certain exceptions, which
[7] tells me are:
Most of these are islands, which may be significant (except many other islands get an article). But Djibouti, Israel, Monaco are Oman are not islands. Who makes these decisions? --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]22:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
No one makes any decisions about languages. Changes and variations happen randomly, without cause, and for no purpose. --
Jayron3211:54, 1 October 2020 (UTC)reply
I think the conversation got convoluted because there's no apparent rule as to whether or not "the" is required for acronyms or abbreviations. For your specific question, I would use "the SWC". If you ask me why, I would say because it looks right to me (and refer you to the tortuous discussion above).
Bazza (
talk)
09:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Their website uses just "SWC" in page titles and when used attributively (as in "SWC officials"), but in full statements they mostly use "the SWC": "a goal the SWC has contributed to",[8] "The SWC supports all Presidents",[9] "The SWC is the only Jewish NGO ...".[10] As I wrote before, I’d follow the use of the organization – unless there are strong reasons not to do so, --
Lambiam11:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Current labels for or types of capitalism
I'm interested in a list of terms describing current forms/types of capitalism. 'Digital capitalism' is one. 'Neoliberal capitalism' another. There are many of these labels, often critical, floating around but I struggle to remember them and they are a little challenging to google up. Can people suggest current descriptions of capitalism that illustrate or explain the many critiques currently available and relevant? Thanks if you can help. -- Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2A02:A447:A6CD:1:680C:EC0A:99F2:8557 (
talk)
12:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a
transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
September 24 Information
The in front of abbreviations
I heard you can ask language questions here. Should you write "SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry" or "The SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry"? TIA
ImTheIP (
talk)
08:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
ImTheIP -- BBC and NATO are both acronyms, both commonly preceded by "the" in their full form when used in a sentence ("the British Broadcasting Corporation", "the North Atlantic Treaty organization").
AnonMoos (
talk)
10:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes they are, and we do indeed refer to "the BBC"; but not to "the NATO". How to tell whether to include the "the" seems to be the original question.
Bazza (
talk)
10:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
NATO is normally pronounced like a word ("Nayto"), whereas BBC is pronounced with each letter individually. Could that be relevant?
Yes, there are schools of thought and climates of opinion about this. (I went to the best school, naturally.) But my starting point is that any other thing called
-onym is a word. Not just a name or a title, but a word. BBC, FBI, CBS etc are not words in the traditional sense. They might get counted as "words" in a word count of a document, but that's about it. They might even get possessivised ("the BBC's charter"), but that means little when we now hear atrocities like "He and I's father". Besides, I'd argue that what's being possessivised in my BBC example is just C, not the whole expression BBC. Others are free to differ. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]23:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)reply
There is no general rule or convention. The best may be to follow the usage of the organization itself: "The SPLC is a catalyst for racial justice ...",[1] "The SPLC stands up for ...",[2] "Each year since 1990, the SPLC has published ...".[3] However, they themselves are not 100% consistent: "SPLC is a nonprofit, tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization".[4] --
Lambiam09:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes, or the style guide of the national press association in your country. If the US, I think there are two, but just checking what the Associated Press does, it seems they include "the" nearly 4/5 of the time for this particular organization, based on ghits.
70.67.193.176 (
talk)
16:28, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
It might not be best to follow the usage of the organization itself. For example I understand that the CIA is sometimes called just CIA by insiders, but omission of the definite article seems aggrandizing and inappropriate to this outsider.
Temerarius (
talk)
20:34, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply
From the CIA's website: "The CIA is an independent agency responsible for ..."[5] and "Like all government agencies, the CIA was not created overnight".[6] --
Lambiam11:27, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
French names for countries seem to be a similarly mixed bag. Some have the definite article in front (Le, La, Les, L'), but many don't. I think one just has to memorise them. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]00:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Except it's not "the Ukraine" any more. That applied when it was a region of Russia, and continued after it became a separate Soviet republic, but ever since it became an independent sovereign nation in the 1990s it's just "Ukraine" now. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]16:45, 25 September 2020 (UTC)reply
This gets back to my point about French names for countries. In English, the use of the definite article is very much the exception. But in French, it's almost universal (more so than I thought above; and to boot, one has to know whether it's le, la or les) – except for certain exceptions, which
[7] tells me are:
Most of these are islands, which may be significant (except many other islands get an article). But Djibouti, Israel, Monaco are Oman are not islands. Who makes these decisions? --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]22:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
No one makes any decisions about languages. Changes and variations happen randomly, without cause, and for no purpose. --
Jayron3211:54, 1 October 2020 (UTC)reply
I think the conversation got convoluted because there's no apparent rule as to whether or not "the" is required for acronyms or abbreviations. For your specific question, I would use "the SWC". If you ask me why, I would say because it looks right to me (and refer you to the tortuous discussion above).
Bazza (
talk)
09:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Their website uses just "SWC" in page titles and when used attributively (as in "SWC officials"), but in full statements they mostly use "the SWC": "a goal the SWC has contributed to",[8] "The SWC supports all Presidents",[9] "The SWC is the only Jewish NGO ...".[10] As I wrote before, I’d follow the use of the organization – unless there are strong reasons not to do so, --
Lambiam11:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Current labels for or types of capitalism
I'm interested in a list of terms describing current forms/types of capitalism. 'Digital capitalism' is one. 'Neoliberal capitalism' another. There are many of these labels, often critical, floating around but I struggle to remember them and they are a little challenging to google up. Can people suggest current descriptions of capitalism that illustrate or explain the many critiques currently available and relevant? Thanks if you can help. -- Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2A02:A447:A6CD:1:680C:EC0A:99F2:8557 (
talk)
12:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)reply