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March 17 Information
Silent-letter acronyms
I'm looking for any examples of acronyms/initialisms of the type where the letters are spoken separately (like FBI, CIA) but every one of the letters is silent in the words they represent. For clarity, in
TKO the K represents knock, which is sounded with an N sound because the K is silent. We still say TKO, not TNO. I want an example where every element of the acronym is like the K in TKO. Does such a beast exist? --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]19:09, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The first question might be, which initial consonants can be silent? It's not a long list. Examples include G (gnome), K (know), M (mnemonic), P (pneumatic) and W (write). Are there any others? <-
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots->
00:21, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
I don't know whether you count "Europe"/"European" as words with a silent initial letter, Jack, but if you do, that might lead to an acronym fitting your conditions (perhaps in connection with "psychology", "psychiatry" ...). ---
Sluzzelintalk01:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The "E" is not really silent in the sense of a historical sound which was deleted, leaving the letter which formerly wrote the sound in place. Instead an overall falling-sonority diphthong flipped to a rising-sonority diphthong...
AnonMoos (
talk)
01:53, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
That's funny, a lot of these words are pronounced with an initial "n___", in at least four cases of different silent letters (Knickerbockers' Gnomic Mnemonic Pneumologists, the KGMP aka NNNN). ---
Sluzzelintalk10:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
It’s typical for a word starting with ex- to use the letter x instead of e in an acronym. I’m sure it’s for the sake of distinction between redundant acronyms. The letter x also does some heavy lifting as a placeholder, of course.
Temerarius (
talk)
04:48, 21 March 2020 (UTC)reply
"Then happened exactly what had always been our greatest fear ..." -- Considering the beginning (lacking a subject, in fact), is that proper English usage?--
Hildeoc (
talk)
19:58, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
I think it has a subject: "exactly what had always been our greatest fear". You could rewrite it as "Then exactly what had always been our greatest fear happened". --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]20:16, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
It's pseudo-poetic or pseudo-archaic English. I won't go as far as to say it's ungrammatical, but it wouldn't occur in normal modern usage. I guess I could imagine Jean-Luc Picard saying it in his Winston Churchill voice on Star Trek.
2601:640:105:A5EA:F50:4B35:8E5:C407 (
talk)
23:09, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Hildeoc -- it's an example of
V2 word order, which used to be common in earlier English, and is still common in some circumstances in the German language today, but is rather limited in modern English.
AnonMoos (
talk)
01:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
It is not that uncommon: "First came the lack of toilet paper, then the worry their business might close for good"
[2]; "In front of the building was the infinity pool, and next to the building was the spa."
[3]. In the last sentence, you cannot even move the subjects to before the verbs (unless you are Yoda). You can do it with the first sentence, but it does not sound too good. --
Lambiam04:57, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Lambiam, Columbusalive's sentence: "First came the lack of toilet paper, then [came] the worry their business might close for good" (in which "[came]" shows where "came" is unspoken but understood). Without inversion: "First the lack of toilet paper came, then the worry [came that] their business might close for good" (in which "[came that]" shows where "came that" is unspoken but understood). --
Hoary (
talk)
05:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Lambiam -- it occurs in English in somewhat restricted contexts (as discussed in the
V2 word order article); outside of those contexts, it can sound literary or archaic or affected. It occurs in a much wider range of contexts in German...
Why not? (Thanks for the link: I'd not heard of that book. As I gaze at
Category:Literary forgeries, I recognize only seven of those listed. So I've just now discovered a new area of my ignorance of the world of letters, let alone the worlds in general.) --
Hoary (
talk)
10:12, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
I'd like to see the rest of the sentence. The post-positioning of the subject can be effective when it immediately precedes the revelation of the fearsome event.
Jmar67 (
talk)
10:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The eleven in the book have to preserve the rhyme, mine do not. Curiously, the first one I give above, which isn't one of the eleven listed in the work linked, was the first to come to mind.
DuncanHill (
talk)
22:26, 19 March 2020 (UTC)reply
You've changed "weary" from modifying "way" to modifying "ploughman" (also, there should probably be a comma after "Weary" in your sentences).
AnonMoos (
talk)
23:43, 19 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The middle link (お問い合わせ) of the five links near the bottom of that page leads to
their contact page. The widgets there, from top to bottom, are:
お名前(会社名): Name (company name)
E-Mailアドレス: E-mail address
カテゴリー: Category – a drop-down menu with a choice of:
一般のお客様: as ordinary customer (the default)
店舗様: as shop
会社様: as company
お問合せ内容: Content of the esteemed inquiry
All are required. Of the two buttons under the content box, the left one (送信) is Submit, while the right one (リセット) is Reset. --
Lambiam04:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
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March 17 Information
Silent-letter acronyms
I'm looking for any examples of acronyms/initialisms of the type where the letters are spoken separately (like FBI, CIA) but every one of the letters is silent in the words they represent. For clarity, in
TKO the K represents knock, which is sounded with an N sound because the K is silent. We still say TKO, not TNO. I want an example where every element of the acronym is like the K in TKO. Does such a beast exist? --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]19:09, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The first question might be, which initial consonants can be silent? It's not a long list. Examples include G (gnome), K (know), M (mnemonic), P (pneumatic) and W (write). Are there any others? <-
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots->
00:21, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
I don't know whether you count "Europe"/"European" as words with a silent initial letter, Jack, but if you do, that might lead to an acronym fitting your conditions (perhaps in connection with "psychology", "psychiatry" ...). ---
Sluzzelintalk01:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The "E" is not really silent in the sense of a historical sound which was deleted, leaving the letter which formerly wrote the sound in place. Instead an overall falling-sonority diphthong flipped to a rising-sonority diphthong...
AnonMoos (
talk)
01:53, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
That's funny, a lot of these words are pronounced with an initial "n___", in at least four cases of different silent letters (Knickerbockers' Gnomic Mnemonic Pneumologists, the KGMP aka NNNN). ---
Sluzzelintalk10:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
It’s typical for a word starting with ex- to use the letter x instead of e in an acronym. I’m sure it’s for the sake of distinction between redundant acronyms. The letter x also does some heavy lifting as a placeholder, of course.
Temerarius (
talk)
04:48, 21 March 2020 (UTC)reply
"Then happened exactly what had always been our greatest fear ..." -- Considering the beginning (lacking a subject, in fact), is that proper English usage?--
Hildeoc (
talk)
19:58, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
I think it has a subject: "exactly what had always been our greatest fear". You could rewrite it as "Then exactly what had always been our greatest fear happened". --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]20:16, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
It's pseudo-poetic or pseudo-archaic English. I won't go as far as to say it's ungrammatical, but it wouldn't occur in normal modern usage. I guess I could imagine Jean-Luc Picard saying it in his Winston Churchill voice on Star Trek.
2601:640:105:A5EA:F50:4B35:8E5:C407 (
talk)
23:09, 17 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Hildeoc -- it's an example of
V2 word order, which used to be common in earlier English, and is still common in some circumstances in the German language today, but is rather limited in modern English.
AnonMoos (
talk)
01:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
It is not that uncommon: "First came the lack of toilet paper, then the worry their business might close for good"
[2]; "In front of the building was the infinity pool, and next to the building was the spa."
[3]. In the last sentence, you cannot even move the subjects to before the verbs (unless you are Yoda). You can do it with the first sentence, but it does not sound too good. --
Lambiam04:57, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Lambiam, Columbusalive's sentence: "First came the lack of toilet paper, then [came] the worry their business might close for good" (in which "[came]" shows where "came" is unspoken but understood). Without inversion: "First the lack of toilet paper came, then the worry [came that] their business might close for good" (in which "[came that]" shows where "came that" is unspoken but understood). --
Hoary (
talk)
05:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Lambiam -- it occurs in English in somewhat restricted contexts (as discussed in the
V2 word order article); outside of those contexts, it can sound literary or archaic or affected. It occurs in a much wider range of contexts in German...
Why not? (Thanks for the link: I'd not heard of that book. As I gaze at
Category:Literary forgeries, I recognize only seven of those listed. So I've just now discovered a new area of my ignorance of the world of letters, let alone the worlds in general.) --
Hoary (
talk)
10:12, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
I'd like to see the rest of the sentence. The post-positioning of the subject can be effective when it immediately precedes the revelation of the fearsome event.
Jmar67 (
talk)
10:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The eleven in the book have to preserve the rhyme, mine do not. Curiously, the first one I give above, which isn't one of the eleven listed in the work linked, was the first to come to mind.
DuncanHill (
talk)
22:26, 19 March 2020 (UTC)reply
You've changed "weary" from modifying "way" to modifying "ploughman" (also, there should probably be a comma after "Weary" in your sentences).
AnonMoos (
talk)
23:43, 19 March 2020 (UTC)reply
The middle link (お問い合わせ) of the five links near the bottom of that page leads to
their contact page. The widgets there, from top to bottom, are:
お名前(会社名): Name (company name)
E-Mailアドレス: E-mail address
カテゴリー: Category – a drop-down menu with a choice of:
一般のお客様: as ordinary customer (the default)
店舗様: as shop
会社様: as company
お問合せ内容: Content of the esteemed inquiry
All are required. Of the two buttons under the content box, the left one (送信) is Submit, while the right one (リセット) is Reset. --
Lambiam04:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)reply