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It is standard in genealogical and academic dating notation, and simply means "between 1571 and 1573". Most likely, a contemporary source notes that he was alive in 1571 and dead in 1573, but we have no other source stating when he died specifically.
Adam Bishop (
talk)
00:15, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
User:Laguna greg tells me he studied at the "École Nôrmale de Mûsique de Paris" [sic], and claims to have a certificate from that august institution which uses all those diacritics. That was a surprise to me. I've never encountered these spellings with the circumflexes. We know it as the
École Normale de Musique de Paris.
When did French stop spelling 'musique' as 'mûsique', or 'normale' as 'nôrmale'? And why would such an institution continue using long-abandoned spellings on their official documents into the present day? --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]23:56, 3 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I can think of at least one archaic word that is found in official academic documents -
ès, as in "baccalauréat ès lettres", which is a medieval French contraction of "en les". So it is possible for archaic spellings to appear there, but I don't know why Laguna greg spelled "normal" and "musique" like that, because those words never had diacritics...
Adam Bishop (
talk)
00:13, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
The circonflexe is used in the
Norman spelling of
mûsique. I don't think "nôrmal/nôrmale" is normally spelled with a circonflexe in any language. And I don't understand Laguna greg's spelling either. (Maybe a cultivated cousin of the
metal umlaut, the "cûltûre cîrcônflêxe"? :-)---
Sluzzelintalk03:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I couldn't find anything about it, I'm going the same way nonetheless regarding your last hypothesis. Laguna greg may have chosen
(..) from several variations the best illustrative of the pedagogical model there known - ( one pair of hands proudly raised over that keyboard? ) -
Askedonty (
talk)
19:39, 4 May 2016 (UTC) In fact less bold than metal it may start with the basic recorder; when not spelled pipo it use(s) a circonflexe as the
flûte.reply
Hi All, I'm quite flattered that my home page has sparked so much conversation! As far as I know, the way you are spelling that name today is correct. I went to school there during the 1988-1989 school year, and I have a letter from the school director regarding my admission where the letterhead uses that spelling with those accents. It happened to be handy when I was writing my home page, so I used it as well. Spelling reforms have taken place a couple of times since then as Jayron points out below - I guess I'll be buying a new dictionary soon. However, the French are very inconsistent for a people who pride themselves on embracing high culture and "la perfectionnement" of everything. For example, the Ecole Normale still thinks of itself and often calls itself the Ecole Normale Alfred Cortot, while the French Ministry of Culture often refers to it as the Ecole Normale Nadia Boulanger. This is nothing but politics in action, and I don't think it should influence what happens here in Wiki as these are not actually the official names of the institution, even if they were in the past (or not). I must also point out that the Ecole is an incredibly conservative and even recidivist institution, both in its administration and its teaching. The school tries very hard to hang on to its illustrious heritage when Cortot, Boulanger, and Lipati were there at the beginning of the last century, and Ravel sat in on Boulanger's counterpoint class just for fun. This kind of chauvinism extends even to how they write official letters. Also, I'm not a linguist per se, but I believe that the accents to show the different vowel colors were used much more freely and indiscriminately up until the 1960s. That started changing with "les evenements de 68" (no I'm not going to put in any of the accents, too hard on my PC). As I understand it, that was the first time the Academie began considering reforms of the written language, including spelling. Cheers! Laguna greg 23:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Laguna greg (
talk •
contribs)
Thanks, Laguna greg for that useful background.
I guess we must conclude from all the answers that
(a) 'normal(e)' and 'musique' are correctly spelt without any diacritics, but
Those are sort of..."suggested" changes though. The Académie can't enforce them, and even the spelling reforms from 1990 are still often ignored.
Adam Bishop (
talk)
13:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Not immediately and instantly, no; but insofar as the French education system may follow the lead of the Académie in its language curriculum and insofar as official style guides within France may do so as well, such changes are likely to eventually work through the system. --
Jayron3216:23, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
It is standard in genealogical and academic dating notation, and simply means "between 1571 and 1573". Most likely, a contemporary source notes that he was alive in 1571 and dead in 1573, but we have no other source stating when he died specifically.
Adam Bishop (
talk)
00:15, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
User:Laguna greg tells me he studied at the "École Nôrmale de Mûsique de Paris" [sic], and claims to have a certificate from that august institution which uses all those diacritics. That was a surprise to me. I've never encountered these spellings with the circumflexes. We know it as the
École Normale de Musique de Paris.
When did French stop spelling 'musique' as 'mûsique', or 'normale' as 'nôrmale'? And why would such an institution continue using long-abandoned spellings on their official documents into the present day? --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]23:56, 3 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I can think of at least one archaic word that is found in official academic documents -
ès, as in "baccalauréat ès lettres", which is a medieval French contraction of "en les". So it is possible for archaic spellings to appear there, but I don't know why Laguna greg spelled "normal" and "musique" like that, because those words never had diacritics...
Adam Bishop (
talk)
00:13, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
The circonflexe is used in the
Norman spelling of
mûsique. I don't think "nôrmal/nôrmale" is normally spelled with a circonflexe in any language. And I don't understand Laguna greg's spelling either. (Maybe a cultivated cousin of the
metal umlaut, the "cûltûre cîrcônflêxe"? :-)---
Sluzzelintalk03:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I couldn't find anything about it, I'm going the same way nonetheless regarding your last hypothesis. Laguna greg may have chosen
(..) from several variations the best illustrative of the pedagogical model there known - ( one pair of hands proudly raised over that keyboard? ) -
Askedonty (
talk)
19:39, 4 May 2016 (UTC) In fact less bold than metal it may start with the basic recorder; when not spelled pipo it use(s) a circonflexe as the
flûte.reply
Hi All, I'm quite flattered that my home page has sparked so much conversation! As far as I know, the way you are spelling that name today is correct. I went to school there during the 1988-1989 school year, and I have a letter from the school director regarding my admission where the letterhead uses that spelling with those accents. It happened to be handy when I was writing my home page, so I used it as well. Spelling reforms have taken place a couple of times since then as Jayron points out below - I guess I'll be buying a new dictionary soon. However, the French are very inconsistent for a people who pride themselves on embracing high culture and "la perfectionnement" of everything. For example, the Ecole Normale still thinks of itself and often calls itself the Ecole Normale Alfred Cortot, while the French Ministry of Culture often refers to it as the Ecole Normale Nadia Boulanger. This is nothing but politics in action, and I don't think it should influence what happens here in Wiki as these are not actually the official names of the institution, even if they were in the past (or not). I must also point out that the Ecole is an incredibly conservative and even recidivist institution, both in its administration and its teaching. The school tries very hard to hang on to its illustrious heritage when Cortot, Boulanger, and Lipati were there at the beginning of the last century, and Ravel sat in on Boulanger's counterpoint class just for fun. This kind of chauvinism extends even to how they write official letters. Also, I'm not a linguist per se, but I believe that the accents to show the different vowel colors were used much more freely and indiscriminately up until the 1960s. That started changing with "les evenements de 68" (no I'm not going to put in any of the accents, too hard on my PC). As I understand it, that was the first time the Academie began considering reforms of the written language, including spelling. Cheers! Laguna greg 23:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Laguna greg (
talk •
contribs)
Thanks, Laguna greg for that useful background.
I guess we must conclude from all the answers that
(a) 'normal(e)' and 'musique' are correctly spelt without any diacritics, but
Those are sort of..."suggested" changes though. The Académie can't enforce them, and even the spelling reforms from 1990 are still often ignored.
Adam Bishop (
talk)
13:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Not immediately and instantly, no; but insofar as the French education system may follow the lead of the Académie in its language curriculum and insofar as official style guides within France may do so as well, such changes are likely to eventually work through the system. --
Jayron3216:23, 4 May 2016 (UTC)reply