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February 27 Information
Identificacion de una sello
ver sello no. 16
Búsqueda asistencia con la lectura del texto en este sello no. 16. Yo leo: «Serie 5», «SOCIEDAD (...)RAL DE CU(...)NES PROGRESO», «50», «CINCUENTA CENTIMOS». El logotipo fue utilizado por la Asociación General de Electricidad en 1888, ver
[1] o
[2]. Gracias. --
91.50.31.10 (
talk)
01:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
I interpret the question as, "Identification of a postage stamp -- [I need] search help reading text on this stamp number 16. I read: 'Series 5','SOCIEDAD (...) RAL DE CU (...) NES PROGRESO ','50',' FIFTY CENTIMOS [cents]". The logo was used by General Electric Association in 1888, see... Danke, y'all." ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
01:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Makes sense. That would account for the number imprinted on it. It's funny how something can seem exotic until you know what it means. "Denali" sounds rather more exotic than "Mt. McKinley" until you discover that "Denali" means "the really tall one". "Really Tall One National Park". Yup. ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
16:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Really, an
Alveolar_trill? I bow to your experience in Japanese. I only watch Anime, but I would say at most it's an
Alveolar_flap. The latter article even gives
Akira as an example in Japanese. An American could get by with pronouncing ⟨ɹ⟩ (as in 'red',
Alveolar_approximant) or even ⟨d⟩ (as in 'dog',
Voiced_alveolar_stop) if they can't manage the flap. I think of it as an r that just barely hints at a d, which is easier for me to do if I'm saying the word loudly or quickly. But really, OP should just watch Pokemon and other Anime in Japanese with subtitles, and then they won't have to ask us how to pronounce things ;)
SemanticMantis (
talk)
15:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
A trilled r does exist in some dialects of Japanese. I associate it with yakuza or tough-guy speak, but if
this thread is to be believed, those (fictional) yazuka are actually speaking
Hiroshima-ben or Ōsaka-ben (much as fictional pirates speak
West Country dialects, I suppose). I wouldn't roll an r in Japanese when saying Ōre or anything else—in fact I'd actively avoid it because of the yakuza connection. --
BenRG (
talk)
19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Yes, I just saw that on Bulbapedia
[7]... They also say that the name is a pun on the English word "
ore" which is pronounced just like "
or." So that might have influenced the spelling and pronunciation. Still, based on what I know, I'd say /Oh-reh/ or /Oh-deh/, unless you can do the flap, then say /Oh-ɾeh/. But since this is a made up name in Japanese influenced by English, I'm pretty sure people will say it many different ways. So you could try asking at Bulbapedia or other Pokemon sites. Even if they don't know Japanese or IPA they might be able to tell you how they commonly say it or hear it.
SemanticMantis (
talk)
15:48, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
The Japanese Pokemon names generally don't seem as exotic-sounding as the English names. Many of them are obviously Japanese (
Pikachū,
Fushigidane,
Hitokage,
Zenigame). Although オーレ does sound foreign, it seems unlikely to me that it was meant to be pronounced with a rolled r. The "Orre" spelling was probably picked by English-speaking localizers, just like the English Pokemon names. --
BenRG (
talk)
19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Gemination (doubling) of consonants does occur in Japanese, see
Japanese_phonology#Gemination which helpfully neglects specifically mentioning /r/ but does say any consonant from a foreign language borrowing can be geminated, even if it is not geminated in the lending language, and even if it is voiced, which is forbidden in native Japanese words. Trilling and gemination are not excatly the same thing, but more like far-reaching in, say, rhotic Scottish English.
μηδείς (
talk)
19:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Yes, 'r' is never geminated in Japanese. It may be, as said above, that the (probably American or Japanese) localizer has used the double 'r' to demonstrate the usual 'flapped r' of Japanese, not knowing that this sound is actually standard British English anyway. But hey, we didn't create this language.... Oh, no, hang on.... :) However, perhaps the localizer used the first 'r' to show length of the previous 'o' vowel, which is normal in non-rhotic dialects. I can understand the OP's dilemma, though, as 'Orre' as it stands would be pronounced in English as 'or' in both rhotic and non-rhotic dialects. KägeTorä - (影虎) (
Chin Wag)19:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Be careful what you wish for, because sometimes you get it.
Here is a 365-page treatment on the topic. You wanted a reference, you got it. --
Jayron3222:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
EO dates "publicly" to the 1580s and "publically" to 1812 or earlier,
[8] with the amusing note that a lot of words ending in "cally" are pronounced as if they were spelled "cly". Presumably it's easier to get one word's spelling changed than all the others. ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
23:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Now, that is most enlightening, Wavelength. It puts to shame my "rule" above. Hectically, tragically, archaically, cryptically, idiotically and probably many others, are all formed from the -ic word, and there is no corresponding -ical word (hectical, idiotical ...). I was not aware till now that "publicly" is a unique oddity ... the only adverb ending in –icly formed from an adjective that ends in –ic. Most intriguing. This also means that there are no such words as 'phonicly' and 'sonicly'. (Talk about proceeding from a false premise. I'm obviously in top form today.) --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]01:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
There's probably some sort of
hypercorrection or related phenomenon going on here. There's an expected ic->ical->ically sequence, and when the "ical" form doesn't exist, there seems to be a hypercorrection (which has become actual proper spelling in many cases) to simply skip it to go ic->ically rather than ic->icly. --
Jayron3201:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
The irony being that in almost every case they'd end up with the correct spelling. "Publicly" is apparently the sole exception. But that's very satisying, in the sense that we expect every English rule to have at least one exception, usually many. If there were no exceptions in this case, that would be an exception to the rule that there is always an exception, and that would obviously spell the end of civilisation as we know it. But then, if there always has to be an exception, doesn't that mean .... nah, I ain't goin' there. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]01:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Here's a question that just came to me: is -ic treated as an actual
morpheme in "public" or is "public" considered a single morpheme. That is, we have situations like history -> historic which demonstrate the morpheme "ic", but for words where "ic" occurs coincidentally, maybe the -ically form is not expected. After all, "public" is a noun where "historic" and "sonic" are not. Maybe that has something to do with it. --
Jayron3202:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Yes, but mage, muse, meter, psycho, logo, are all known morphemes in English. Is there any "publ-" known morphemes that would take an "ic"? --
Jayron3203:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
I apologize for the late reply, Jack, but this the first opportunity I've had in days to get online. And I figured that you'd like to know:
Publicly is not quite unique. Rather, the Oxford American Dictionary, Third Edition, also lists [
politicly] (not to be confused with [
politically]).
Apart from that sole exception, however, Wavelength's sources remain perfectly accurate. (Once upon a time, there was also catholicly, but the OED now marks that as obsolete.)
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
February 27 Information
Identificacion de una sello
ver sello no. 16
Búsqueda asistencia con la lectura del texto en este sello no. 16. Yo leo: «Serie 5», «SOCIEDAD (...)RAL DE CU(...)NES PROGRESO», «50», «CINCUENTA CENTIMOS». El logotipo fue utilizado por la Asociación General de Electricidad en 1888, ver
[1] o
[2]. Gracias. --
91.50.31.10 (
talk)
01:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
I interpret the question as, "Identification of a postage stamp -- [I need] search help reading text on this stamp number 16. I read: 'Series 5','SOCIEDAD (...) RAL DE CU (...) NES PROGRESO ','50',' FIFTY CENTIMOS [cents]". The logo was used by General Electric Association in 1888, see... Danke, y'all." ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
01:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Makes sense. That would account for the number imprinted on it. It's funny how something can seem exotic until you know what it means. "Denali" sounds rather more exotic than "Mt. McKinley" until you discover that "Denali" means "the really tall one". "Really Tall One National Park". Yup. ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
16:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Really, an
Alveolar_trill? I bow to your experience in Japanese. I only watch Anime, but I would say at most it's an
Alveolar_flap. The latter article even gives
Akira as an example in Japanese. An American could get by with pronouncing ⟨ɹ⟩ (as in 'red',
Alveolar_approximant) or even ⟨d⟩ (as in 'dog',
Voiced_alveolar_stop) if they can't manage the flap. I think of it as an r that just barely hints at a d, which is easier for me to do if I'm saying the word loudly or quickly. But really, OP should just watch Pokemon and other Anime in Japanese with subtitles, and then they won't have to ask us how to pronounce things ;)
SemanticMantis (
talk)
15:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
A trilled r does exist in some dialects of Japanese. I associate it with yakuza or tough-guy speak, but if
this thread is to be believed, those (fictional) yazuka are actually speaking
Hiroshima-ben or Ōsaka-ben (much as fictional pirates speak
West Country dialects, I suppose). I wouldn't roll an r in Japanese when saying Ōre or anything else—in fact I'd actively avoid it because of the yakuza connection. --
BenRG (
talk)
19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Yes, I just saw that on Bulbapedia
[7]... They also say that the name is a pun on the English word "
ore" which is pronounced just like "
or." So that might have influenced the spelling and pronunciation. Still, based on what I know, I'd say /Oh-reh/ or /Oh-deh/, unless you can do the flap, then say /Oh-ɾeh/. But since this is a made up name in Japanese influenced by English, I'm pretty sure people will say it many different ways. So you could try asking at Bulbapedia or other Pokemon sites. Even if they don't know Japanese or IPA they might be able to tell you how they commonly say it or hear it.
SemanticMantis (
talk)
15:48, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
The Japanese Pokemon names generally don't seem as exotic-sounding as the English names. Many of them are obviously Japanese (
Pikachū,
Fushigidane,
Hitokage,
Zenigame). Although オーレ does sound foreign, it seems unlikely to me that it was meant to be pronounced with a rolled r. The "Orre" spelling was probably picked by English-speaking localizers, just like the English Pokemon names. --
BenRG (
talk)
19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Gemination (doubling) of consonants does occur in Japanese, see
Japanese_phonology#Gemination which helpfully neglects specifically mentioning /r/ but does say any consonant from a foreign language borrowing can be geminated, even if it is not geminated in the lending language, and even if it is voiced, which is forbidden in native Japanese words. Trilling and gemination are not excatly the same thing, but more like far-reaching in, say, rhotic Scottish English.
μηδείς (
talk)
19:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Yes, 'r' is never geminated in Japanese. It may be, as said above, that the (probably American or Japanese) localizer has used the double 'r' to demonstrate the usual 'flapped r' of Japanese, not knowing that this sound is actually standard British English anyway. But hey, we didn't create this language.... Oh, no, hang on.... :) However, perhaps the localizer used the first 'r' to show length of the previous 'o' vowel, which is normal in non-rhotic dialects. I can understand the OP's dilemma, though, as 'Orre' as it stands would be pronounced in English as 'or' in both rhotic and non-rhotic dialects. KägeTorä - (影虎) (
Chin Wag)19:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Be careful what you wish for, because sometimes you get it.
Here is a 365-page treatment on the topic. You wanted a reference, you got it. --
Jayron3222:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
EO dates "publicly" to the 1580s and "publically" to 1812 or earlier,
[8] with the amusing note that a lot of words ending in "cally" are pronounced as if they were spelled "cly". Presumably it's easier to get one word's spelling changed than all the others. ←
Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→
23:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Now, that is most enlightening, Wavelength. It puts to shame my "rule" above. Hectically, tragically, archaically, cryptically, idiotically and probably many others, are all formed from the -ic word, and there is no corresponding -ical word (hectical, idiotical ...). I was not aware till now that "publicly" is a unique oddity ... the only adverb ending in –icly formed from an adjective that ends in –ic. Most intriguing. This also means that there are no such words as 'phonicly' and 'sonicly'. (Talk about proceeding from a false premise. I'm obviously in top form today.) --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]01:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
There's probably some sort of
hypercorrection or related phenomenon going on here. There's an expected ic->ical->ically sequence, and when the "ical" form doesn't exist, there seems to be a hypercorrection (which has become actual proper spelling in many cases) to simply skip it to go ic->ically rather than ic->icly. --
Jayron3201:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
The irony being that in almost every case they'd end up with the correct spelling. "Publicly" is apparently the sole exception. But that's very satisying, in the sense that we expect every English rule to have at least one exception, usually many. If there were no exceptions in this case, that would be an exception to the rule that there is always an exception, and that would obviously spell the end of civilisation as we know it. But then, if there always has to be an exception, doesn't that mean .... nah, I ain't goin' there. --
Jack of Oz[pleasantries]01:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Here's a question that just came to me: is -ic treated as an actual
morpheme in "public" or is "public" considered a single morpheme. That is, we have situations like history -> historic which demonstrate the morpheme "ic", but for words where "ic" occurs coincidentally, maybe the -ically form is not expected. After all, "public" is a noun where "historic" and "sonic" are not. Maybe that has something to do with it. --
Jayron3202:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
Yes, but mage, muse, meter, psycho, logo, are all known morphemes in English. Is there any "publ-" known morphemes that would take an "ic"? --
Jayron3203:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)reply
I apologize for the late reply, Jack, but this the first opportunity I've had in days to get online. And I figured that you'd like to know:
Publicly is not quite unique. Rather, the Oxford American Dictionary, Third Edition, also lists [
politicly] (not to be confused with [
politically]).
Apart from that sole exception, however, Wavelength's sources remain perfectly accurate. (Once upon a time, there was also catholicly, but the OED now marks that as obsolete.)