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September 3 Information
This one has been bugging me for years. In "Light My Fire", Jim Morisson sings "If I was to say to you, girl we couldn't get much higher". Shouldn't it be "If I were to say to you"? I have no idea of the correct grammar but "were" feels correct in this context. Am I right or wrong? 121.44.39.11 ( talk) 10:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Technically, yes, "if I were" is required, since "if" governs the subjunctive mood. But the subjunctive is going the way of (a) dinosaurs, (b) "whom", (c) apostrophes to denote possession (except its) or abbreviation, (d) capital I, (e) commas after non-restrictive relative clauses, and (f) various other hallmarks of good language. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 10:57, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- ( edit conflict)Well, the subjunctive needn't be used in every "if" clause, just those in counterfactual conditionals. But you're right about the Lizard King example. Sheldon Harnick got it right in If I Were a Rich Man. Deor ( talk) 11:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- And If I were a carpenter .... That would sound most odd as "If I was a carpenter", as would "If I was a rich man", and not just because we're used to hearing the "were" versions. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Morrison did not say "If I am", but "If I was", even though he's clearly not talking about the past. That shows that the use of a different verb form when talking about a hypothetical is quite present in his usage, even if it's not the same as in the traditional standard rule. Michael Hardy ( talk) 19:02, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- One reason to prefer "were" rather than "was" in this context is that in some cases it might disambiguate. "If he was there..." might mean we don't know whether he was there yesterday or not, etc. "If he were there..." can only mean it's hypothetical: he's not there, but if he were, then...., etc. Michael Hardy ( talk) 19:04, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I believe this is just one of many examples of language regularisation. "If I were" is a late remnant of a verb form historically distinct from past tense, and apparently known as past subjunctive, which has by now been almost merged with past tense. For regular verbs and even for most irregular verbs (all but be?) they are now the same. That be holds out longer than the other verbs is normal and expected because the more often an irregularity occurs in speech, the more stable it is. It's similar to how some nouns that used to be used very often have retained their irregular plurals (e.g. mice, oxen). In this particular case the distinction is still alive in German and is basically indicated by umlauts. E.g. compare "Ich war / Wenn ich wäre" = "I was / If I were", "Ich kam / Wenn ich käme" = "I came / If I came", "Ich schwamm / Wenn ich schwömme" = "I swam / If I swam". Presumably, the difference between the corresponding English verb forms got lost as a result of vowel shifts. For many German regular words it has disappeared as it has in English, e.g. "Ich öffnete / Wenn ich öffnete" = "I opened / If I opened".
"If I was" already sounds basically like a correct variant to me, although I wouldn't say it myself. I guess it will soon become the more 'correct' form and "If I were" will be downgraded to an old-fashioned alternative. Hans Adler 21:38, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- "If I was" is not particularly unusual among Commonwealth speakers, even educated ones speaking formally, but is unlikely in that context in the States. There also exists a usage where was is substituted for were to make the unlikeliness of the possibility even more emphatic, something like un-italicizing an emphasized word within an italic passage I suppose. -- Trovatore ( talk) 21:41, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Memorandum:
- "If it was broken on purpose, then we will have to work hard to fix it".
- "If it were broken on purpose, then we would have to work hard to fix it".
HOOTmag ( talk) 23:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely, these two sentences have two different meanings. Michael Hardy ( talk) 15:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- A more detaîled expansion on sentences with if is as follows.
If the verb after if is in the present tense, the following verb may be in the present, future, or imperative; depending on the situation. For example:
- "If you can make that manatee jump out of the water and do a jig, you are amazing."
- "However, if it does nothing or attacks me instead, I shall be very angry."
- "If it starts to attack me, please grab that sea cattle prod and neutralize it."
If the verb after if is in the past tense, the following verb should be in the conditional. For example:
- "If the manatee jumped out of the water; be assured, my friend, that I would fight tooth and nail to save you."
If the verb after if is in the past perfect tense, the following verb should be in the conditional perfect. For example:
- "What were you thinking, man? If you hadn't been on bathroom break when the manatee jumped from the water and bit me, I wouldn't have had to spend three months in the hospital with manatee pox."
Although, as with practically anything in English, I'm sure there are exceptions. Inter change able| talk to me 22:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < September 2 | << Aug | September | Oct >> | September 4 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
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| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
September 3 Information
This one has been bugging me for years. In "Light My Fire", Jim Morisson sings "If I was to say to you, girl we couldn't get much higher". Shouldn't it be "If I were to say to you"? I have no idea of the correct grammar but "were" feels correct in this context. Am I right or wrong? 121.44.39.11 ( talk) 10:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Technically, yes, "if I were" is required, since "if" governs the subjunctive mood. But the subjunctive is going the way of (a) dinosaurs, (b) "whom", (c) apostrophes to denote possession (except its) or abbreviation, (d) capital I, (e) commas after non-restrictive relative clauses, and (f) various other hallmarks of good language. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 10:57, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- ( edit conflict)Well, the subjunctive needn't be used in every "if" clause, just those in counterfactual conditionals. But you're right about the Lizard King example. Sheldon Harnick got it right in If I Were a Rich Man. Deor ( talk) 11:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- And If I were a carpenter .... That would sound most odd as "If I was a carpenter", as would "If I was a rich man", and not just because we're used to hearing the "were" versions. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Morrison did not say "If I am", but "If I was", even though he's clearly not talking about the past. That shows that the use of a different verb form when talking about a hypothetical is quite present in his usage, even if it's not the same as in the traditional standard rule. Michael Hardy ( talk) 19:02, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- One reason to prefer "were" rather than "was" in this context is that in some cases it might disambiguate. "If he was there..." might mean we don't know whether he was there yesterday or not, etc. "If he were there..." can only mean it's hypothetical: he's not there, but if he were, then...., etc. Michael Hardy ( talk) 19:04, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I believe this is just one of many examples of language regularisation. "If I were" is a late remnant of a verb form historically distinct from past tense, and apparently known as past subjunctive, which has by now been almost merged with past tense. For regular verbs and even for most irregular verbs (all but be?) they are now the same. That be holds out longer than the other verbs is normal and expected because the more often an irregularity occurs in speech, the more stable it is. It's similar to how some nouns that used to be used very often have retained their irregular plurals (e.g. mice, oxen). In this particular case the distinction is still alive in German and is basically indicated by umlauts. E.g. compare "Ich war / Wenn ich wäre" = "I was / If I were", "Ich kam / Wenn ich käme" = "I came / If I came", "Ich schwamm / Wenn ich schwömme" = "I swam / If I swam". Presumably, the difference between the corresponding English verb forms got lost as a result of vowel shifts. For many German regular words it has disappeared as it has in English, e.g. "Ich öffnete / Wenn ich öffnete" = "I opened / If I opened".
"If I was" already sounds basically like a correct variant to me, although I wouldn't say it myself. I guess it will soon become the more 'correct' form and "If I were" will be downgraded to an old-fashioned alternative. Hans Adler 21:38, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- "If I was" is not particularly unusual among Commonwealth speakers, even educated ones speaking formally, but is unlikely in that context in the States. There also exists a usage where was is substituted for were to make the unlikeliness of the possibility even more emphatic, something like un-italicizing an emphasized word within an italic passage I suppose. -- Trovatore ( talk) 21:41, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Memorandum:
- "If it was broken on purpose, then we will have to work hard to fix it".
- "If it were broken on purpose, then we would have to work hard to fix it".
HOOTmag ( talk) 23:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely, these two sentences have two different meanings. Michael Hardy ( talk) 15:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- A more detaîled expansion on sentences with if is as follows.
If the verb after if is in the present tense, the following verb may be in the present, future, or imperative; depending on the situation. For example:
- "If you can make that manatee jump out of the water and do a jig, you are amazing."
- "However, if it does nothing or attacks me instead, I shall be very angry."
- "If it starts to attack me, please grab that sea cattle prod and neutralize it."
If the verb after if is in the past tense, the following verb should be in the conditional. For example:
- "If the manatee jumped out of the water; be assured, my friend, that I would fight tooth and nail to save you."
If the verb after if is in the past perfect tense, the following verb should be in the conditional perfect. For example:
- "What were you thinking, man? If you hadn't been on bathroom break when the manatee jumped from the water and bit me, I wouldn't have had to spend three months in the hospital with manatee pox."
Although, as with practically anything in English, I'm sure there are exceptions. Inter change able| talk to me 22:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC)