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September 13 Information
Poker dots
Polka dot tells me the name derives from the dance known as the
polka. When referring to the dance, people usually pronounce polka as it looks; but when talking about polka dots, they often pronounce it as a non-rhotic "poker".
I'm confused. Isn't a nonrhotic pronunciation of poker homophonous with polka? As a rhotic speaker, I would pronounce them [ˈpoʊkər] and [ˈpoʊkə] respectively.
Angr (
talk)
12:26, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
There's an L in polka. It's derived from the Polish word for Poland. People usually sound the L when they talk about the dance. But many ignore it when they say "polka dots". --
Jack of Oz[your turn]17:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually, it's more likely derived from the Czech word for "little half", but there's an /l/ in there too, so your point isn't weakened. Nevertheless, as I pointed out below, in English, /l/ is often deleted between a back vowel and /k/, so people say "poka dot" for the same reason they say "foke" for "folk" and "yoke" for "yolk". But to get down to your real question, why do some people (but not all!) pronounce the polka in polka dot differently from the way they pronounce the name of the dance, I think it probably has to do with the fact that no one really associates polka dots with polkas, so there's no semantic incentive to keep the names pronounced the same, combined with the possibility of learning the words from people who speak different dialects. If someone learns about the dance from someone who calls it /pɒlkə/, then he'll pronounce it that way too; and if he learns about the dance from someone else who pronounces it /poʊkə/, then he'll pronounce that word that way.
Angr (
talk)
21:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Makes a lot of sense, Angr. I may have confused matters by referring to non-rhotic prons. That was only because I used "poker" to denote the way the word is sometimes pronounced, but a rhoticist would interpret that as "pokerrr", which was not what I was getting at. Thanks. --
Jack of Oz[your turn]21:43, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
It would have made even more sense if I hadn't mistyped the second half of the last sentence. It should read, "...and if he learns about the dots from someone else ...".
Angr (
talk)
22:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
The 'l' in polka is normally pronounced. To not pronounce it would make you non-lamda-ic, and nothing to do with non-rhotacism. I guess it's because in London English the 'l' becomes a 'w' (as it does in the original Polish, and this coalesces with the vowel, giving us 'poker'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (
TALK)12:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Several American dictionaries I've just consulted confirm that polka can be pronounced with or without the /l/ in American English, while polka dot is generally pronounced without it. British dictionaries give /pɒlkə/ (with the "short o" of doll) for polka and don't give any pronunciation for polka dot at all (allowing you to infer its pronunciation from polka and dot). So at the very least, the "poke a dot" pronunciation is American.
Angr (
talk)
13:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
"Poker dot" may be the result of a particular American accent that tends to pronounce vowel endings with -er, as in feller (for fellow) or vaniller (for vanilla, yes I've heard this one). As an American, I myself pronounce "polka" as it's spelled, with a short L and no R. ~
Amatulić (
talk)
13:22, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
My fellow Americans, the people who are reporting pronunciations of "poker dot" are all people who don't pronounce rs after vowels (unless another vowel follows the r). These people have various British or Australian accents. When they say "poker", it would sound something like "poka" to Americans.
Marco polo (
talk)
14:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Canadians don't do polka. We're too busy trying to keep warm. </joke> The only time I can remember when I did hear polka, it was without the l. It's always interesting to hear the large differences between dialects.
Interchangeable|
talk to me14:45, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
It's not just a pronunciation thing. I have seen high school students write "poker dots", presumably writing what they think they have heard.
HiLo48 (
talk)
17:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
As a speaker of an RP-ish kind of
estuary English, I say what Jack says, polllka dance (quite a w-coloured l but still an l in there) and poka dots. Absolutely no idea why. To confound it, I would sing "yellow polllka dot bikini" were I permitted to sing.
Itsmejudith (
talk)
20:18, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
The Schnitzel Syndrome is obviously alive and well (a phrase coined by yours truly because of menus that suggest diners may order a "snitzel" [sic], which is the way some people say it). --
Jack of Oz[your turn]20:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Jack of Oz entirely confused the issue by referring to a non-rhotic pronunciation of a non-existent phrase "poker dots." That might be a good approximation of the way the phrase is pronounced to someone who speaks a non-rhotic dialect as does he, as if what is said poka dots had dreived from poker dots. But that is not the case historically or an any English speaker's speech. His comment had nothing to do with rhotacism affecting or not affecting the /l/.
As I child I knew how to dance a polka, and had always assumed poke a dots were meant to be poked. I was surprised to learn the actual spelling, polka dot.μηδείς (
talk)
01:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Thank you for liberally garnishing my open, bleeding wounds with a generous sprinkling of the salt of your observations. I hope for your sake it tastes better now. I already voluntarily donned sackcloth and ashes by acknowledging above: "I may have confused matters by referring to non-rhotic prons ...". I never claimed the rhotacism to which I referred, or lack thereof, had anything to do with the /l/. --
Jack of Oz[your turn]03:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)reply
In IPA, a tilde under a letter means it has
creaky voice (and that is mentioned in the section you linked to), but that wouldn't make sense under a [t], and anyway, this is a conventional transliteration of an Avestan letter that probably greatly predates the IPA's usage of the subscript tilde.
Angr (
talk)
23:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
According to Mark Hale in the "Avestan" chapter of The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages edited by Roger D. Woodard (2004) ISBN 0-521-56256-2, t with undertilde is "an 'unreleased' voiceless dental stop -- it is extremely limited in distribution, being regularly found only in word-final position and before certain obstruents".
AnonMoos (
talk)
23:00, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
I was going to say the same thing. Also, that it is not phonemic. It's a bit like all the non-phonemic nasals in Indic scripts, they're there to guide priestly pronunciation at a point where there are no native speakers left. The tilde has nothing to do with IPA, it's just an ad-hoc choice of diacritic due to, I guess, Bartholomae. --
dab(𒁳)06:21, 14 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I didn't think it was phonemic. (I did say "presumably an allophone of /t/" above.) I've added the info
here if others would like to double-check it and correct it as necessary.
Angr (
talk)
06:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
September 13 Information
Poker dots
Polka dot tells me the name derives from the dance known as the
polka. When referring to the dance, people usually pronounce polka as it looks; but when talking about polka dots, they often pronounce it as a non-rhotic "poker".
I'm confused. Isn't a nonrhotic pronunciation of poker homophonous with polka? As a rhotic speaker, I would pronounce them [ˈpoʊkər] and [ˈpoʊkə] respectively.
Angr (
talk)
12:26, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
There's an L in polka. It's derived from the Polish word for Poland. People usually sound the L when they talk about the dance. But many ignore it when they say "polka dots". --
Jack of Oz[your turn]17:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually, it's more likely derived from the Czech word for "little half", but there's an /l/ in there too, so your point isn't weakened. Nevertheless, as I pointed out below, in English, /l/ is often deleted between a back vowel and /k/, so people say "poka dot" for the same reason they say "foke" for "folk" and "yoke" for "yolk". But to get down to your real question, why do some people (but not all!) pronounce the polka in polka dot differently from the way they pronounce the name of the dance, I think it probably has to do with the fact that no one really associates polka dots with polkas, so there's no semantic incentive to keep the names pronounced the same, combined with the possibility of learning the words from people who speak different dialects. If someone learns about the dance from someone who calls it /pɒlkə/, then he'll pronounce it that way too; and if he learns about the dance from someone else who pronounces it /poʊkə/, then he'll pronounce that word that way.
Angr (
talk)
21:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Makes a lot of sense, Angr. I may have confused matters by referring to non-rhotic prons. That was only because I used "poker" to denote the way the word is sometimes pronounced, but a rhoticist would interpret that as "pokerrr", which was not what I was getting at. Thanks. --
Jack of Oz[your turn]21:43, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
It would have made even more sense if I hadn't mistyped the second half of the last sentence. It should read, "...and if he learns about the dots from someone else ...".
Angr (
talk)
22:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
The 'l' in polka is normally pronounced. To not pronounce it would make you non-lamda-ic, and nothing to do with non-rhotacism. I guess it's because in London English the 'l' becomes a 'w' (as it does in the original Polish, and this coalesces with the vowel, giving us 'poker'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (
TALK)12:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Several American dictionaries I've just consulted confirm that polka can be pronounced with or without the /l/ in American English, while polka dot is generally pronounced without it. British dictionaries give /pɒlkə/ (with the "short o" of doll) for polka and don't give any pronunciation for polka dot at all (allowing you to infer its pronunciation from polka and dot). So at the very least, the "poke a dot" pronunciation is American.
Angr (
talk)
13:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
"Poker dot" may be the result of a particular American accent that tends to pronounce vowel endings with -er, as in feller (for fellow) or vaniller (for vanilla, yes I've heard this one). As an American, I myself pronounce "polka" as it's spelled, with a short L and no R. ~
Amatulić (
talk)
13:22, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
My fellow Americans, the people who are reporting pronunciations of "poker dot" are all people who don't pronounce rs after vowels (unless another vowel follows the r). These people have various British or Australian accents. When they say "poker", it would sound something like "poka" to Americans.
Marco polo (
talk)
14:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Canadians don't do polka. We're too busy trying to keep warm. </joke> The only time I can remember when I did hear polka, it was without the l. It's always interesting to hear the large differences between dialects.
Interchangeable|
talk to me14:45, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
It's not just a pronunciation thing. I have seen high school students write "poker dots", presumably writing what they think they have heard.
HiLo48 (
talk)
17:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
As a speaker of an RP-ish kind of
estuary English, I say what Jack says, polllka dance (quite a w-coloured l but still an l in there) and poka dots. Absolutely no idea why. To confound it, I would sing "yellow polllka dot bikini" were I permitted to sing.
Itsmejudith (
talk)
20:18, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
The Schnitzel Syndrome is obviously alive and well (a phrase coined by yours truly because of menus that suggest diners may order a "snitzel" [sic], which is the way some people say it). --
Jack of Oz[your turn]20:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Jack of Oz entirely confused the issue by referring to a non-rhotic pronunciation of a non-existent phrase "poker dots." That might be a good approximation of the way the phrase is pronounced to someone who speaks a non-rhotic dialect as does he, as if what is said poka dots had dreived from poker dots. But that is not the case historically or an any English speaker's speech. His comment had nothing to do with rhotacism affecting or not affecting the /l/.
As I child I knew how to dance a polka, and had always assumed poke a dots were meant to be poked. I was surprised to learn the actual spelling, polka dot.μηδείς (
talk)
01:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Thank you for liberally garnishing my open, bleeding wounds with a generous sprinkling of the salt of your observations. I hope for your sake it tastes better now. I already voluntarily donned sackcloth and ashes by acknowledging above: "I may have confused matters by referring to non-rhotic prons ...". I never claimed the rhotacism to which I referred, or lack thereof, had anything to do with the /l/. --
Jack of Oz[your turn]03:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)reply
In IPA, a tilde under a letter means it has
creaky voice (and that is mentioned in the section you linked to), but that wouldn't make sense under a [t], and anyway, this is a conventional transliteration of an Avestan letter that probably greatly predates the IPA's usage of the subscript tilde.
Angr (
talk)
23:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
According to Mark Hale in the "Avestan" chapter of The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages edited by Roger D. Woodard (2004) ISBN 0-521-56256-2, t with undertilde is "an 'unreleased' voiceless dental stop -- it is extremely limited in distribution, being regularly found only in word-final position and before certain obstruents".
AnonMoos (
talk)
23:00, 13 September 2011 (UTC)reply
I was going to say the same thing. Also, that it is not phonemic. It's a bit like all the non-phonemic nasals in Indic scripts, they're there to guide priestly pronunciation at a point where there are no native speakers left. The tilde has nothing to do with IPA, it's just an ad-hoc choice of diacritic due to, I guess, Bartholomae. --
dab(𒁳)06:21, 14 September 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I didn't think it was phonemic. (I did say "presumably an allophone of /t/" above.) I've added the info
here if others would like to double-check it and correct it as necessary.
Angr (
talk)
06:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)reply