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I can't remember if translation requests are allowed here or not. My old classics prof refuses to translate/crib stuff into Latin, considers it pompous or whatever; but I'd like to know "You Only Live Once" in Latin, if somebody could provide it. Greek I almost think I could conjecture mia einai kai mia or mia einai mono -? - but that's probably not the right idiom....be funny if it turned out to actually be a phrase in the Symposium or one of the poets/plays, which well it might be.... Skookum1 ( talk) 02:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I love this kind of pomposity. We had a Latin teacher who gave us a translation test on a text called (any error here will be from my recall, not his grammar) " Quae in orientibus habitant". -- Dweller ( talk) 13:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
"Non sum tam putas, quam tu ebrias me esse!" Duomillia ( talk) 03:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Would you call that a mistake? It is clear why the person said 'are' instead of 'is', but it sounds so terrible... Mr.K. (talk) 11:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
So as it seems this construction 'de por' is acceptable in Spanish. But what is the difference between "el café de la tarde", "el café por la tarde", and the sentence above? Are there more cases like that (2x preposition) in Spanish? Mr.K. (talk) 11:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Should it be "A SSL certificate.." or "An SSL Certificate.."? Similar question could also apply to HTTP, and other abbreviations. Pronunciation says that it should be "an", but we were taught in school that "an" comes only before vowels, and neither S or H are vowels. What is the general consensus regarding this issue? For future reference, is there any canonical "rule book" of English Grammar? In school we used Wren & Martin, is it still considered the bible of English Grammar?
Thanks. -- RohanDhruva ( talk) 18:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Origin etc. all of interest to me. Any links appreciated. Thanks! -- 217.227.71.95 ( talk) 21:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
6. Used to represent a kiss, esp. in the subscription to a letter.
1763 G. White Lett. (1901) I. vii. 132, I am with many a xxxxxxx and many a Pater noster and Ave Maria, Gil. White. 1894 W. S. Churchill Let. 14 Mar. in R. S. Churchill Winston S. Churchill I. Compan. i. (1967) vii. 456 Please excuse bad writing as I am in an awful hurry. (Many kisses.) xxx WSC. 1951 S. Plath Let. 7 July (1975) i. 72 Some gal by the name of Sylvia Plath sure has something—but who is she anyhow?+x x Sivvy. 1953 Dylan Thomas Under Milk Wood (1954) 41 Yours for ever. Then twenty-one X's. 1982 C. Fremlin Parasite Person vi. 40 A row of ‘X's’, hurried kisses, all he had time to scribble.
I read at one time that the 'heart' symbol referred to the view of a woman on all fours from the rear, in 'presentation mode'. I guess it was a little like naughty graffiti.
Some pages that explore this topic, not without some uncertainty, this Google Answers page, which includes "...placing X's on envelopes, notes and at the bottom of letters to mean kisses dates back to Medeival ages, when a cross was drawn on documents or letters to mean sincerity and honesty. A kiss was then placed upon the cross, by the signer as a display of their of their sworn oath." And this listserv page, which has various ideas and info, and brings up the phrase, likely related, "sealed with a kiss". Other pages describe World War I era love letters with S.W.A.K. standing for "sealed with a kiss". The theory that the X comes from the K of SWAK seems unlikely to me. But the common use of XOXO for hugs and kisses at the bottom on letters or on envelopes seems to date from around that time or a bit before. The use of X and O in games, like tick-tack-toe (naughts and crosses), seems to derive, at least in part, from older games with names like tick-tack, tic-tac, or tric-trac. These games date to at least the 16th century and the name is "echoic, applied to various clicking noises", made by the game pieces. Tick-tack (and tic-tac) were also used for the heart-beat sound. These things are all from the OED's entries on tick-tack and related words. Probably the use of X in tick-tack-toe is unrelated to its use for kisses in letters, but the late 19th century addition of the O for hugs is probably more closely related to the old X and O games.
Also, on the OED's quotes on the use of X for kisses in letters, mentioned by the OP, the first example from 1763 uses xxxxxxx, but it is not clear whether this means kisses or something else. Perhaps it was just a kind of not-saying a word, like one do with a blank line, or something like s**t. The earliest given use of X for kiss is only clear in the OED's 1894 quote of Churchill, which is just the time when XOXO, sealed with a kiss, and SWAK was catching on.
Perhaps there is no simple answer. It seems to me likely that the use of X for kiss in letters is of complex origin, but comes mainly from signing documents with an X, whether due to an inability to write and/or the use of a cross symbol for blessing or vouching a document's authenticity (deeds, wills, marriage records, and so on). The old tradition of sealing a document or letter seems to have a history of being related to kissing. Not only were the seals kissed but the signet rings used to make the seals where themselves sometimes kissed (and the word signet is related to sign, as in making a mark and signing a letter). The very notion of sealing letters by impressing wax with signet, which promised or vowed that the words were sincere, seems curiously similar to sealing and "impressing" a letter with a kiss. The word "signature" is related to signet. For people who signed with an X mark, the X essentially stood for the sealing vow of the signet "kiss". In love letters, it makes sense that some special mark could come to mean kiss, especially when X marks and signet seals were important because they were "in, or by your own hand". An illiterate person would not have written a will, for example, but they wrote the X mark that made it official.
The OED's entry for "seal" includes quotes such as "1593 SHAKES. 3 Hen. VI, V. vii. 29 The duty that I owe vnto your Maiesty, I Seale vpon the lips of this sweet Babe." And "1589 GREENE Menaphon (Arb.) 89 They plighted faith and troth, and Carmela..sealed it with a kisse." And "c1450 Merlin xxxi. 619 He drough oute the letter of kynge Rion that was seled with x seles roiall." I'm not sure quite what these quotes are about, but they seem oddly related to the topic. Also, the word "seal" also has the meaning of "fig. A token or symbol of a covenant; something that authenticates or confirms". All these seems like stuff that could have been morphed in love letters, especially between lovers separated by war and wishing to give their letters something more personal and real than just words. Of course I've moved into the realm of speculation.
None of this quite answers the question, but makes me think the use of X for kiss in letters has multiple roots that reinforced one another over time. Pfly ( talk) 09:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
But this is a good start, and I want to be there when the book comes out, ;) Julia Rossi ( talk) 11:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Language desk | ||
---|---|---|
< November 26 | << Oct | November | Dec >> | November 28 > |
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
---|
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
I can't remember if translation requests are allowed here or not. My old classics prof refuses to translate/crib stuff into Latin, considers it pompous or whatever; but I'd like to know "You Only Live Once" in Latin, if somebody could provide it. Greek I almost think I could conjecture mia einai kai mia or mia einai mono -? - but that's probably not the right idiom....be funny if it turned out to actually be a phrase in the Symposium or one of the poets/plays, which well it might be.... Skookum1 ( talk) 02:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I love this kind of pomposity. We had a Latin teacher who gave us a translation test on a text called (any error here will be from my recall, not his grammar) " Quae in orientibus habitant". -- Dweller ( talk) 13:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
"Non sum tam putas, quam tu ebrias me esse!" Duomillia ( talk) 03:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Would you call that a mistake? It is clear why the person said 'are' instead of 'is', but it sounds so terrible... Mr.K. (talk) 11:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
So as it seems this construction 'de por' is acceptable in Spanish. But what is the difference between "el café de la tarde", "el café por la tarde", and the sentence above? Are there more cases like that (2x preposition) in Spanish? Mr.K. (talk) 11:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Should it be "A SSL certificate.." or "An SSL Certificate.."? Similar question could also apply to HTTP, and other abbreviations. Pronunciation says that it should be "an", but we were taught in school that "an" comes only before vowels, and neither S or H are vowels. What is the general consensus regarding this issue? For future reference, is there any canonical "rule book" of English Grammar? In school we used Wren & Martin, is it still considered the bible of English Grammar?
Thanks. -- RohanDhruva ( talk) 18:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Origin etc. all of interest to me. Any links appreciated. Thanks! -- 217.227.71.95 ( talk) 21:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
6. Used to represent a kiss, esp. in the subscription to a letter.
1763 G. White Lett. (1901) I. vii. 132, I am with many a xxxxxxx and many a Pater noster and Ave Maria, Gil. White. 1894 W. S. Churchill Let. 14 Mar. in R. S. Churchill Winston S. Churchill I. Compan. i. (1967) vii. 456 Please excuse bad writing as I am in an awful hurry. (Many kisses.) xxx WSC. 1951 S. Plath Let. 7 July (1975) i. 72 Some gal by the name of Sylvia Plath sure has something—but who is she anyhow?+x x Sivvy. 1953 Dylan Thomas Under Milk Wood (1954) 41 Yours for ever. Then twenty-one X's. 1982 C. Fremlin Parasite Person vi. 40 A row of ‘X's’, hurried kisses, all he had time to scribble.
I read at one time that the 'heart' symbol referred to the view of a woman on all fours from the rear, in 'presentation mode'. I guess it was a little like naughty graffiti.
Some pages that explore this topic, not without some uncertainty, this Google Answers page, which includes "...placing X's on envelopes, notes and at the bottom of letters to mean kisses dates back to Medeival ages, when a cross was drawn on documents or letters to mean sincerity and honesty. A kiss was then placed upon the cross, by the signer as a display of their of their sworn oath." And this listserv page, which has various ideas and info, and brings up the phrase, likely related, "sealed with a kiss". Other pages describe World War I era love letters with S.W.A.K. standing for "sealed with a kiss". The theory that the X comes from the K of SWAK seems unlikely to me. But the common use of XOXO for hugs and kisses at the bottom on letters or on envelopes seems to date from around that time or a bit before. The use of X and O in games, like tick-tack-toe (naughts and crosses), seems to derive, at least in part, from older games with names like tick-tack, tic-tac, or tric-trac. These games date to at least the 16th century and the name is "echoic, applied to various clicking noises", made by the game pieces. Tick-tack (and tic-tac) were also used for the heart-beat sound. These things are all from the OED's entries on tick-tack and related words. Probably the use of X in tick-tack-toe is unrelated to its use for kisses in letters, but the late 19th century addition of the O for hugs is probably more closely related to the old X and O games.
Also, on the OED's quotes on the use of X for kisses in letters, mentioned by the OP, the first example from 1763 uses xxxxxxx, but it is not clear whether this means kisses or something else. Perhaps it was just a kind of not-saying a word, like one do with a blank line, or something like s**t. The earliest given use of X for kiss is only clear in the OED's 1894 quote of Churchill, which is just the time when XOXO, sealed with a kiss, and SWAK was catching on.
Perhaps there is no simple answer. It seems to me likely that the use of X for kiss in letters is of complex origin, but comes mainly from signing documents with an X, whether due to an inability to write and/or the use of a cross symbol for blessing or vouching a document's authenticity (deeds, wills, marriage records, and so on). The old tradition of sealing a document or letter seems to have a history of being related to kissing. Not only were the seals kissed but the signet rings used to make the seals where themselves sometimes kissed (and the word signet is related to sign, as in making a mark and signing a letter). The very notion of sealing letters by impressing wax with signet, which promised or vowed that the words were sincere, seems curiously similar to sealing and "impressing" a letter with a kiss. The word "signature" is related to signet. For people who signed with an X mark, the X essentially stood for the sealing vow of the signet "kiss". In love letters, it makes sense that some special mark could come to mean kiss, especially when X marks and signet seals were important because they were "in, or by your own hand". An illiterate person would not have written a will, for example, but they wrote the X mark that made it official.
The OED's entry for "seal" includes quotes such as "1593 SHAKES. 3 Hen. VI, V. vii. 29 The duty that I owe vnto your Maiesty, I Seale vpon the lips of this sweet Babe." And "1589 GREENE Menaphon (Arb.) 89 They plighted faith and troth, and Carmela..sealed it with a kisse." And "c1450 Merlin xxxi. 619 He drough oute the letter of kynge Rion that was seled with x seles roiall." I'm not sure quite what these quotes are about, but they seem oddly related to the topic. Also, the word "seal" also has the meaning of "fig. A token or symbol of a covenant; something that authenticates or confirms". All these seems like stuff that could have been morphed in love letters, especially between lovers separated by war and wishing to give their letters something more personal and real than just words. Of course I've moved into the realm of speculation.
None of this quite answers the question, but makes me think the use of X for kiss in letters has multiple roots that reinforced one another over time. Pfly ( talk) 09:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
But this is a good start, and I want to be there when the book comes out, ;) Julia Rossi ( talk) 11:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)