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November 19 Information
This is a follow up to the article on Arabic names ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_names). Can you help me learn how Arabic names are typically organized in telephone directories?
For instance, before we place an American name in a telephone directory, we re-order it so the family name appears first, such as: Clinton, William Jefferson.
I'd like to learn similar rules for Arabic names. That is, which portion of the Arabic name is the one to sort by? How are Arabic names formatted when they appear in the phone book? Thank you. I18nquestion ( talk) 04:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- They're placed in Latin script, in whichever way that the respondent decided to convert it. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 05:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Phone books in Arabic-speaking countries use Latin script?? Doesn't that make rather a big impediment to ordinary people wanting to use them? --Anonymous, 05:52 UTC, November 19, 2008.
- Ah, that's an entirely different question, the one to which I don't know the answer. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 06:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Phone books in Arabic-speaking countries use Latin script?? Doesn't that make rather a big impediment to ordinary people wanting to use them? --Anonymous, 05:52 UTC, November 19, 2008.
There’s nothing special about sorting Arabic names. Sort the first part (ism) first, then the second, and then the third if any and so on. Yes, there’d be a lot of Aḥmad/Muḥammad/Maḥmūd, but then there’s a lot of Smith/Johnson/Davies in English; there’re always namesakes, in whichever language. You may want to take a look at ar:تصنيف:شخصيات عربية for an example of how Arabic names are sorted.-- K.C. Tang ( talk) 06:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Very classy answer, since the obvious one from one with a surname like yours would have referenced Chinese character's stroke order! DOR (HK) ( talk) 09:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks K.C. Tang! So even though the Nisba is the name that is most similar in concept to a Western surname, people's names are not sorted by that? Is that because you can't rely on the Nisba always being present in a name, whereas people will always at least have an ism? I18nquestion ( talk) 03:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you’re right. But also note that sometimes the kunya precedes the ism, in which case of course you sort by the kunya first.-- K.C. Tang ( talk) 04:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why am I not surprised that in the Arab world, everyone has an ism? — An gr 08:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- As an aside, Icelandic telephone directories are sorted by first name, patronymic, second name.
Haukur (
talk)
07:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What about phone books in India? Aren't they sorted by first name too? —
An
gr
08:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What I really want to know is how Indonesian phonebooks are sorted and why the Indonesian Wikipedia is sorted the way it is. See id:Pembicaraan_Wikipedia:Kedutaan#Sorting_of_Indonesian_names for my attempts last year to get an answer to that. Haukur ( talk) 09:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What about phone books in India? Aren't they sorted by first name too? —
An
gr
08:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Also see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Malaysia/Archive_1#Naming_conventions for the Icelandic-Ethiopian-Malay Axis-of-First-Name-Sorting conspiracy on Wikipedia. Haukur ( talk) 09:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- All patronymic naming system are supposed to be sorted by the first element of the name (it is, after all, the only sensible way), but it seems that many systems want to adopt the non-patronymic way of sorting ... very strange indeed :0-- K.C. Tang ( talk) 08:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Just in case I run into Helen of Troy (at say a ship launching), what is the right way to pronounce her name? (no comprendo IPA) Clarityfiend ( talk) 07:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- HELL-en uv TROI.
zafiroblue05 |
Talk
08:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heh...if you mean in Greek, it's "heh-LEH-nay", sort of (though the -ay at the end is not a diphthong like in English).
Adam Bishop (
talk)
- I guess she might be surprised by the '...of Troy' part of her present-day name. Does anyone happen to know who was the first to use it? Strawless ( talk) 15:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heh...if you mean in Greek, it's "heh-LEH-nay", sort of (though the -ay at the end is not a diphthong like in English).
Adam Bishop (
talk)
Terracini, particularly the consonant of the third (and penultimate) syllable. -- Thanks, Deborahjay ( talk) 14:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'd say [terːaˈtʃiːni]. —
Emil
J.
14:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. And if I know Deborahjay, I suspect what she's looking for is טרצ׳יני. —
An
gr
14:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, you do indeed, dear Angr—as can be seen in my thanks to EmilJ ;-) -- Deborahjay ( talk) 14:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Could I get that in non-IPA? :D
80.123.210.172 (
talk)
14:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- terra-CHEE-nee. Like terracotta but with "cheenee" instead of "cotta". —
An
gr
14:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- In the IPA, does the ' denote accent, and does it come BEFORE the vowel being accented? For example, if it had been TERracheenee would it have been [ˈterːatʃiːni]?
- Yes and yes. Deor ( talk) 16:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- In the IPA, does the ' denote accent, and does it come BEFORE the vowel being accented? For example, if it had been TERracheenee would it have been [ˈterːatʃiːni]?
- terra-CHEE-nee. Like terracotta but with "cheenee" instead of "cotta". —
An
gr
14:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. And if I know Deborahjay, I suspect what she's looking for is טרצ׳יני. —
An
gr
14:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Just mix up feticini and terracotta, and you'll get it. Just make sure you don't end up with 'Fetticotta'!-- ChokinBako ( talk) 17:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- apols Sluzzelin, I didn't scroll over your link first... Julia Rossi ( talk) 21:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
What tense should you use when describing what happens/what happened (see!) in a book/film etc? 141.14.217.217 ( talk) 17:09, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- The historic present is used, which is actually exactly the same as the present in English.-- ChokinBako ( talk) 17:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- ...sometimes. Using the simple past is much more common in books, though neither is more "correct" than the other. It's a stylistic choice. - Elmer Clark ( talk) 18:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually I'm pretty sure I misunderstood your question and ChokinBako is entirely right. :) - Elmer Clark ( talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I think your first answer was correct. It's not always the historic present that's used, although it often is. The past tense is just as common, in my experience. It depends on the context. In formal writing, it tends to be the past tense. In speech, it tends to be the historic present. -- JackofOz ( talk) 19:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, is there a WP policy?
141.14.217.217 (
talk)
14:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- There's a style guideline, recommending the use of the present tense, at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Contextual presentation: "By convention, these synopses should be written in the present tense, as this is the way that the story is experienced as it is read or viewed." Deor ( talk) 14:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, is there a WP policy?
141.14.217.217 (
talk)
14:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
What is the native pronunciation of Friðrik Þór Friðriksson? Is it [ˈfrɪðrɪk ˈθouːr ˈfrɪðrɪxsɔn], or did I misinterpret some of the rules in the Icelandic phonology article? — Emil J. 17:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that the ð is the voiced "th" sound and Þ is the unvoiced "th" sound, so the best English approximation is probably "free-thrick thor free-thrick-son" where the first and third "th" are pronounced like in "them" and the middle one is pronounced like in "thick"... -- Jayron32. talk. contribs 17:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- ð and Þ are clear. What I was more wondering about is whether I've got the exact quality of the vowels right, whether -ik is really a stop in the first name and a fricative in the third name, and whether there are other sandhi rules similar to -ks- which I missed. — Emil J. 18:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- From what I know, there is an aspirate before the 'k' in the first Friðrik, but not in the second. Aspirates usually occur in short syllables.-- ChokinBako ( talk) 18:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your transcription describes my pronunciation correctly. Some speakers, however, would have a stop in the patronymic, [ˈfrɪðrɪksɔn]. Free variation, more or less, though perhaps younger people are more likely to have a stop than older people. Haukur ( talk) 07:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. — Emil J. 11:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In Chad, what has more native speakers, as a first language, French or Arabic?. Referenced statisics only please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.246.7 ( talk) 17:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Googling 'Chad Languages' got me 347,000 hits. Check this out, anyway.-- ChokinBako ( talk) 18:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- This question was duplicated at the Humanities desk and answered there. AnonMoos ( talk) 22:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Using the information in Arabic name as a guideline, I've been trying to come up with a name for a fictional character of mine, a man of Palestinian origin. I currently have: Hakim ibn Shaheed ibn Yismael al-Khalil. (No kunya, since he doesn't have any children; and I'm sort of leaving out the laqab until I find something I like the sound of). If there's anyone familiar with Arabic names in general and Palestinian names specifically, does this name sound at all plausible? -- Brasswatchman ( talk) 19:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's quite a valid name. Yismael is often romanised as Ismail, Sma'el or Isma'il as well. Because romanisations of Arabic vary a lot, you can play with them to get one that looks right to you. For example, Hakim could also be Hakeem, Shahid could be Shaheed or Shahiid. If you're coming up with other names, remember that his Palestinian accent might have an effect on the romanisation. In a Palestinian accent, ق is [ʔ], ظ is [zˤ] and kasra is often pronounced (and romanised) as e. Remember also that ع is still pronounced very clearly, so it might be helpful to mark it - for example in Isma'el. Steewi ( talk) 23:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Um... is the choice of "ibn Shaheed" deliberate for this character? Because a mainstream reader having even a minimal familiarity with Arabic words is likely to know that ibn X means "son of X," while (since 9/11? or certainly in
my neighborhood)
shaheed is known to mean something like "martyred warrior who fell in the
jihad ("struggle" loosely understood as "Islamic holy war")." In real life we don't have the luxury of choosing our father's name. I'd advise authorly caution; if this name choice delivers your intention, then go with it— but don't say you weren't warned. --
Deborahjay (
talk)
18:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. Good point. I hadn't realized the connection was that strong. I'll have to think about that. Thank you both very much for your input! I really appreciate the help. --
Brasswatchman (
talk)
14:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, but remember my suggestion (above) about serving a purpose: it might be a neat and subtle (?) way to indicate three generations of Palestinian nationalists and/or Islamic faithful (i.e. ibn Shaheed's paternal grandparents named his father "Shaheed"). You'll do well to run this past some of your beta-version readers, possibly among the cognoscenti at LANTRA-L and CE-L. -- Deborahjay ( talk) 15:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. Good point. I hadn't realized the connection was that strong. I'll have to think about that. Thank you both very much for your input! I really appreciate the help. --
Brasswatchman (
talk)
14:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < November 18 | << Oct | November | Dec >> | November 20 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
November 19 Information
This is a follow up to the article on Arabic names ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_names). Can you help me learn how Arabic names are typically organized in telephone directories?
For instance, before we place an American name in a telephone directory, we re-order it so the family name appears first, such as: Clinton, William Jefferson.
I'd like to learn similar rules for Arabic names. That is, which portion of the Arabic name is the one to sort by? How are Arabic names formatted when they appear in the phone book? Thank you. I18nquestion ( talk) 04:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- They're placed in Latin script, in whichever way that the respondent decided to convert it. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 05:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Phone books in Arabic-speaking countries use Latin script?? Doesn't that make rather a big impediment to ordinary people wanting to use them? --Anonymous, 05:52 UTC, November 19, 2008.
- Ah, that's an entirely different question, the one to which I don't know the answer. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 06:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Phone books in Arabic-speaking countries use Latin script?? Doesn't that make rather a big impediment to ordinary people wanting to use them? --Anonymous, 05:52 UTC, November 19, 2008.
There’s nothing special about sorting Arabic names. Sort the first part (ism) first, then the second, and then the third if any and so on. Yes, there’d be a lot of Aḥmad/Muḥammad/Maḥmūd, but then there’s a lot of Smith/Johnson/Davies in English; there’re always namesakes, in whichever language. You may want to take a look at ar:تصنيف:شخصيات عربية for an example of how Arabic names are sorted.-- K.C. Tang ( talk) 06:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Very classy answer, since the obvious one from one with a surname like yours would have referenced Chinese character's stroke order! DOR (HK) ( talk) 09:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks K.C. Tang! So even though the Nisba is the name that is most similar in concept to a Western surname, people's names are not sorted by that? Is that because you can't rely on the Nisba always being present in a name, whereas people will always at least have an ism? I18nquestion ( talk) 03:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you’re right. But also note that sometimes the kunya precedes the ism, in which case of course you sort by the kunya first.-- K.C. Tang ( talk) 04:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why am I not surprised that in the Arab world, everyone has an ism? — An gr 08:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- As an aside, Icelandic telephone directories are sorted by first name, patronymic, second name.
Haukur (
talk)
07:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What about phone books in India? Aren't they sorted by first name too? —
An
gr
08:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What I really want to know is how Indonesian phonebooks are sorted and why the Indonesian Wikipedia is sorted the way it is. See id:Pembicaraan_Wikipedia:Kedutaan#Sorting_of_Indonesian_names for my attempts last year to get an answer to that. Haukur ( talk) 09:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- What about phone books in India? Aren't they sorted by first name too? —
An
gr
08:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Also see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Malaysia/Archive_1#Naming_conventions for the Icelandic-Ethiopian-Malay Axis-of-First-Name-Sorting conspiracy on Wikipedia. Haukur ( talk) 09:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- All patronymic naming system are supposed to be sorted by the first element of the name (it is, after all, the only sensible way), but it seems that many systems want to adopt the non-patronymic way of sorting ... very strange indeed :0-- K.C. Tang ( talk) 08:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Just in case I run into Helen of Troy (at say a ship launching), what is the right way to pronounce her name? (no comprendo IPA) Clarityfiend ( talk) 07:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- HELL-en uv TROI.
zafiroblue05 |
Talk
08:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heh...if you mean in Greek, it's "heh-LEH-nay", sort of (though the -ay at the end is not a diphthong like in English).
Adam Bishop (
talk)
- I guess she might be surprised by the '...of Troy' part of her present-day name. Does anyone happen to know who was the first to use it? Strawless ( talk) 15:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heh...if you mean in Greek, it's "heh-LEH-nay", sort of (though the -ay at the end is not a diphthong like in English).
Adam Bishop (
talk)
Terracini, particularly the consonant of the third (and penultimate) syllable. -- Thanks, Deborahjay ( talk) 14:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'd say [terːaˈtʃiːni]. —
Emil
J.
14:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. And if I know Deborahjay, I suspect what she's looking for is טרצ׳יני. —
An
gr
14:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, you do indeed, dear Angr—as can be seen in my thanks to EmilJ ;-) -- Deborahjay ( talk) 14:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Could I get that in non-IPA? :D
80.123.210.172 (
talk)
14:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- terra-CHEE-nee. Like terracotta but with "cheenee" instead of "cotta". —
An
gr
14:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- In the IPA, does the ' denote accent, and does it come BEFORE the vowel being accented? For example, if it had been TERracheenee would it have been [ˈterːatʃiːni]?
- Yes and yes. Deor ( talk) 16:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- In the IPA, does the ' denote accent, and does it come BEFORE the vowel being accented? For example, if it had been TERracheenee would it have been [ˈterːatʃiːni]?
- terra-CHEE-nee. Like terracotta but with "cheenee" instead of "cotta". —
An
gr
14:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. And if I know Deborahjay, I suspect what she's looking for is טרצ׳יני. —
An
gr
14:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Just mix up feticini and terracotta, and you'll get it. Just make sure you don't end up with 'Fetticotta'!-- ChokinBako ( talk) 17:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- apols Sluzzelin, I didn't scroll over your link first... Julia Rossi ( talk) 21:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
What tense should you use when describing what happens/what happened (see!) in a book/film etc? 141.14.217.217 ( talk) 17:09, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- The historic present is used, which is actually exactly the same as the present in English.-- ChokinBako ( talk) 17:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- ...sometimes. Using the simple past is much more common in books, though neither is more "correct" than the other. It's a stylistic choice. - Elmer Clark ( talk) 18:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually I'm pretty sure I misunderstood your question and ChokinBako is entirely right. :) - Elmer Clark ( talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I think your first answer was correct. It's not always the historic present that's used, although it often is. The past tense is just as common, in my experience. It depends on the context. In formal writing, it tends to be the past tense. In speech, it tends to be the historic present. -- JackofOz ( talk) 19:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, is there a WP policy?
141.14.217.217 (
talk)
14:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- There's a style guideline, recommending the use of the present tense, at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Contextual presentation: "By convention, these synopses should be written in the present tense, as this is the way that the story is experienced as it is read or viewed." Deor ( talk) 14:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, is there a WP policy?
141.14.217.217 (
talk)
14:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
What is the native pronunciation of Friðrik Þór Friðriksson? Is it [ˈfrɪðrɪk ˈθouːr ˈfrɪðrɪxsɔn], or did I misinterpret some of the rules in the Icelandic phonology article? — Emil J. 17:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that the ð is the voiced "th" sound and Þ is the unvoiced "th" sound, so the best English approximation is probably "free-thrick thor free-thrick-son" where the first and third "th" are pronounced like in "them" and the middle one is pronounced like in "thick"... -- Jayron32. talk. contribs 17:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- ð and Þ are clear. What I was more wondering about is whether I've got the exact quality of the vowels right, whether -ik is really a stop in the first name and a fricative in the third name, and whether there are other sandhi rules similar to -ks- which I missed. — Emil J. 18:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- From what I know, there is an aspirate before the 'k' in the first Friðrik, but not in the second. Aspirates usually occur in short syllables.-- ChokinBako ( talk) 18:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your transcription describes my pronunciation correctly. Some speakers, however, would have a stop in the patronymic, [ˈfrɪðrɪksɔn]. Free variation, more or less, though perhaps younger people are more likely to have a stop than older people. Haukur ( talk) 07:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. — Emil J. 11:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In Chad, what has more native speakers, as a first language, French or Arabic?. Referenced statisics only please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.246.7 ( talk) 17:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Googling 'Chad Languages' got me 347,000 hits. Check this out, anyway.-- ChokinBako ( talk) 18:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- This question was duplicated at the Humanities desk and answered there. AnonMoos ( talk) 22:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Using the information in Arabic name as a guideline, I've been trying to come up with a name for a fictional character of mine, a man of Palestinian origin. I currently have: Hakim ibn Shaheed ibn Yismael al-Khalil. (No kunya, since he doesn't have any children; and I'm sort of leaving out the laqab until I find something I like the sound of). If there's anyone familiar with Arabic names in general and Palestinian names specifically, does this name sound at all plausible? -- Brasswatchman ( talk) 19:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's quite a valid name. Yismael is often romanised as Ismail, Sma'el or Isma'il as well. Because romanisations of Arabic vary a lot, you can play with them to get one that looks right to you. For example, Hakim could also be Hakeem, Shahid could be Shaheed or Shahiid. If you're coming up with other names, remember that his Palestinian accent might have an effect on the romanisation. In a Palestinian accent, ق is [ʔ], ظ is [zˤ] and kasra is often pronounced (and romanised) as e. Remember also that ع is still pronounced very clearly, so it might be helpful to mark it - for example in Isma'el. Steewi ( talk) 23:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Um... is the choice of "ibn Shaheed" deliberate for this character? Because a mainstream reader having even a minimal familiarity with Arabic words is likely to know that ibn X means "son of X," while (since 9/11? or certainly in
my neighborhood)
shaheed is known to mean something like "martyred warrior who fell in the
jihad ("struggle" loosely understood as "Islamic holy war")." In real life we don't have the luxury of choosing our father's name. I'd advise authorly caution; if this name choice delivers your intention, then go with it— but don't say you weren't warned. --
Deborahjay (
talk)
18:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. Good point. I hadn't realized the connection was that strong. I'll have to think about that. Thank you both very much for your input! I really appreciate the help. --
Brasswatchman (
talk)
14:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, but remember my suggestion (above) about serving a purpose: it might be a neat and subtle (?) way to indicate three generations of Palestinian nationalists and/or Islamic faithful (i.e. ibn Shaheed's paternal grandparents named his father "Shaheed"). You'll do well to run this past some of your beta-version readers, possibly among the cognoscenti at LANTRA-L and CE-L. -- Deborahjay ( talk) 15:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. Good point. I hadn't realized the connection was that strong. I'll have to think about that. Thank you both very much for your input! I really appreciate the help. --
Brasswatchman (
talk)
14:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)