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It seems extremely implausible that there were two churches in Sebastopol in 1855, both named "Church of the Twelve Apostles". IMO it is safe to assume it is the same church. --
Lambiam09:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
According to the Ukrainian Wikipedia, the church, which was damaged during the
Crimean war, served as the military church of the Balaklava Greek Battalion, which fought on the Russian side, so the bells were brought back as booty. --
Lambiam09:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
For goodness's sake, its SEVASTOPOL. Because Russian/Ukranian written B = English V, and generations of ignorant nincompoops have continued to make this elementary mistake.
No, I studied Russian at school aged 12-16, and for a year at Hull University aged 19-20, before switching to French and Philosophy: but I should have stuck with the Russian, and then I might have scraped some sort of BA, rather than an OND in Engineering [ie tractor-fixing] from some now-defunct college
near Oxford. Thus I am qualified to fix eg the PTO clutch on a
John Deere 3050: I even possess the special tool to remove the starter motor. I can also (in theory) fix the knotters on a
Welger square baler. Among my
other non-mechanical interests, I have had a go at translating all of
Borodin's 16 solo songs, especially "Для берегов отчизны дальной", perhaps best sung by the late, lamented
Dmitry Horostovsky.
MinorProphet (
talk)
20:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
MinorProphet -- It's also because of the Greek root. Previous generations of educated Western Europeans would have often had some knowledge of the ancient Greek language.
AnonMoos (
talk)
20:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
And more to the point, English scholars didn't know or didn't care about the lenition of the Greek voiced consonants /b, d, g/ to /v, ð, ɣ/ in late Antiquity, and continued to pronounce them as stops. So they would continue to pronounce σεβαστός as "sebastos", whatever the Byzantines might be doing.
Note also that nobody uses the spelling Vosporos, even though /ˈvos.po.ros/ was the Medieval Greek pronunciation. It is also not a sign of ignorance if one uses the spelling Lesbos. In a historical context, such as when discussing Sappho and Alcaeus, writing Lesvos would even be weird. --
Lambiam10:04, 21 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Anyhow, thanks for the details of the church, the article has been updated accordingly. I take it nobody could find out who actually removed the bell?
Alansplodge (
talk)
12:25, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
According to
Siege of Sevastopol (1854–1855)#Sebastopol Bells "Following the end of the siege, two large bells were taken by British forces as
war trophies from the Church of the Twelve Apostles. Along with two smaller bells, they were appropriated and transported by Lieutenant Colonel
John St George, who commanded the
Royal Artillerysiege train.[1] They were displayed at the
Royal Arsenal,
Woolwich, before the larger one was taken to
Aldershot Garrison, where it was mounted on a wooden frame on Gun Hill. In 1879, it was moved to the bell tower of the Cambridge Military Hospital, the garrison's medical facility. It was moved in 1978 to the officer's mess in Hospital Road and more recently to St Omer Barracks; it is a Grade II
listed structure. The
second bell was taken to
Windsor Castle and installed in the Round Tower; by tradition it is only rung on the death of a king or queen."
DuncanHill (
talk)
15:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Although that ref shows the largest of Lt-Col St George's bells being a single bell of 10 cwt and ours are a pair each of 17 cwt. The mystery deepens...
Alansplodge (
talk)
22:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a
transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
It seems extremely implausible that there were two churches in Sebastopol in 1855, both named "Church of the Twelve Apostles". IMO it is safe to assume it is the same church. --
Lambiam09:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
According to the Ukrainian Wikipedia, the church, which was damaged during the
Crimean war, served as the military church of the Balaklava Greek Battalion, which fought on the Russian side, so the bells were brought back as booty. --
Lambiam09:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
For goodness's sake, its SEVASTOPOL. Because Russian/Ukranian written B = English V, and generations of ignorant nincompoops have continued to make this elementary mistake.
No, I studied Russian at school aged 12-16, and for a year at Hull University aged 19-20, before switching to French and Philosophy: but I should have stuck with the Russian, and then I might have scraped some sort of BA, rather than an OND in Engineering [ie tractor-fixing] from some now-defunct college
near Oxford. Thus I am qualified to fix eg the PTO clutch on a
John Deere 3050: I even possess the special tool to remove the starter motor. I can also (in theory) fix the knotters on a
Welger square baler. Among my
other non-mechanical interests, I have had a go at translating all of
Borodin's 16 solo songs, especially "Для берегов отчизны дальной", perhaps best sung by the late, lamented
Dmitry Horostovsky.
MinorProphet (
talk)
20:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
MinorProphet -- It's also because of the Greek root. Previous generations of educated Western Europeans would have often had some knowledge of the ancient Greek language.
AnonMoos (
talk)
20:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
And more to the point, English scholars didn't know or didn't care about the lenition of the Greek voiced consonants /b, d, g/ to /v, ð, ɣ/ in late Antiquity, and continued to pronounce them as stops. So they would continue to pronounce σεβαστός as "sebastos", whatever the Byzantines might be doing.
Note also that nobody uses the spelling Vosporos, even though /ˈvos.po.ros/ was the Medieval Greek pronunciation. It is also not a sign of ignorance if one uses the spelling Lesbos. In a historical context, such as when discussing Sappho and Alcaeus, writing Lesvos would even be weird. --
Lambiam10:04, 21 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Anyhow, thanks for the details of the church, the article has been updated accordingly. I take it nobody could find out who actually removed the bell?
Alansplodge (
talk)
12:25, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
According to
Siege of Sevastopol (1854–1855)#Sebastopol Bells "Following the end of the siege, two large bells were taken by British forces as
war trophies from the Church of the Twelve Apostles. Along with two smaller bells, they were appropriated and transported by Lieutenant Colonel
John St George, who commanded the
Royal Artillerysiege train.[1] They were displayed at the
Royal Arsenal,
Woolwich, before the larger one was taken to
Aldershot Garrison, where it was mounted on a wooden frame on Gun Hill. In 1879, it was moved to the bell tower of the Cambridge Military Hospital, the garrison's medical facility. It was moved in 1978 to the officer's mess in Hospital Road and more recently to St Omer Barracks; it is a Grade II
listed structure. The
second bell was taken to
Windsor Castle and installed in the Round Tower; by tradition it is only rung on the death of a king or queen."
DuncanHill (
talk)
15:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Although that ref shows the largest of Lt-Col St George's bells being a single bell of 10 cwt and ours are a pair each of 17 cwt. The mystery deepens...
Alansplodge (
talk)
22:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply