Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
February 16 Information
Italian Monopoly on Papacy
How come all Popes between 1523 and 1978 (for 455 years) were Italians? Was this a coincidence, or was there something more to it? Does the fact that the Papal Residence is very close to Italy (and previously, to some Italian city states) have anything to do with this?
Futurist110 (
talk)
00:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
For much of that period, the Papacy was a political power as well as the head of the Church. As such, they had all the usual problems, like needing to avoid wars with their neighbors, which other states accomplished through intermarriage, etc. One way for the Papacy to do so was to appoint a Pope from a neighboring city-state, which would certainly help to prevent war with them. Later on, having an Italian Pope just became a tradition.
StuRat (
talk)
01:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Italy was also highly overrepresented in the number of its Cardinals, to the point, I believe, of having a majority in the conclave--but I am not sure where to find this information, so take that as reference needed.
μηδείς (
talk)
01:12, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't know that it's an outright majority any more, but it's definitely a plurality of the eligible-to-vote cardinals. I believe the article I saw said 28 Italians are eligible to vote for the Pope, with something like 11 Americans as the next-most-powerful nation voting bloc. —
Lomn03:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Help me here please. The word plurality is not a common word where I come from, although I know I've seen discussion of it somewhere here on Wikipedia, and suitably forgotten. What's it mean?
HiLo48 (
talk)
03:33, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
...meaning it's the largest group. So, here it means that Italians have more votes than anyone else, even though they don't have more than half the votes.
StuRat (
talk)
17:44, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
It is entirely because the seat of the papacy was in Rome. Of course, prior to the middle 1800s, there was no Italy; there was a plethora of states on the Italian peninsula, and they spoke a variety of languages and had a variety of cultures. But the fact that all Popes came from near Rome is entirely understandable, if for no other reason than the Pope was the ruler of a large country known as the
Papal States, and inviting some foreigner in to rule was not, at the time, seen as a good idea. After all, it didn't go so well for Poland when they did just that. The Italian Papacy was pretty much secured by the results of the
Western Schism, which was a controversy over whether Rome or Avignon (in France) would be the seat of the Papacy. It is no coincidence that the Avignon Popes were almost all French. After the Great Schism, the power in the Papacy returned to Rome, and Rome was committed to keeping it that way. --
Jayron3203:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
It isn't right to say that prior to the mid-1800s, there was no Italy. It is absolutely true that there was no single Italian state, and Italian regional identities were stronger, but from the time of the early Renaissance at the latest, all of Italy shared a common standard language and literary culture as well as a coherent economy. The careers of the great early modern Italian artists and writers show a lot of geographic mobility among the various city-states of the peninsula. This shows cultural and economic coherence in the absence of political unity. In this context, an Italian from outside the Papal States would not have been seen as a foreigner by residents of those states. By contrast, a French, Spanish, or German pope might have had more difficulty ruling the Papal States.
Marco polo (
talk)
19:51, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Itschory - Itsyursk - Itsiursk
I wish to pin down the location and current name of the place called Itschory, the birth place of
Vasily Safonov. All we're told there is that it was in the Russian
Caucasus. A google search for Itschory just turns up a few thousand hits for Safonov, where his birth place is just parroted mindlessly.
Another variant I've seen is Itsyursk, but a google search again gives me many hits about Safonov and nothing about the place itself.
My 1954 Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians renders it as "Itsiursk, Terek, Caucasus". Google gives me no hits for Itsiursk at all. Grove's goes on "He was the son of a Cossack general living in a village in the northern Caucasus, on the banks of the romantic
river Terek, sung by the poets Pushkin and Lermontov". But whether the first mention of Terek was a reference to the river or to either of the localities mentioned at
Terek, Russia, I could not say.
Since Safonov's birth in 1852, there has been rather a lot of political and military activity in this whole region, and what Itschory - Itsyursk - Itsiursk was back then is almost certainly not what it is today. It might have been swallowed up in some larger conurbation. It might have been wiped out in some conflict. It could even be in
Georgia.
Wow, vagaries indeed. I must be losing the plot, because it never occurred to me to check in ru:WP. Thanks for the quick detective work, Mr McWalter. --
Jack of Oz[Talk]01:58, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Resolved
Sesquialtera
The Spanish baroque composer
Gaspar Sanz wrote some pieces entitled "Sesquialtera", and I was wondering how these pieces are supposed to be played/interpreted. I cannot find any information about this kind of piece (suppose it must be a dance, as most pieces by Sanz were); and just going by the tablature and score I have, I'm not really sure of how to play them. I searched in some musical encyclopedias, only finding stuff about organ stops, and even Wikipedia doesn't give me more. The pieces contain some strange harmonies, making them quite interesting. Anybody able to help?
MuDavid (
talk)
02:11, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Favorite pastime of the Eskimo (also known as Inuit)
why does our article says raytheon has revenue of $24Bn, assets of $25Bn, but yahoo finance says its whole market cap is only $17bn (just a few months of revenue)? am i making a mistake or looking at two different companys? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.101.32.82 (
talk)
08:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
First of all, you're confusing
revenue with
profit. Raytheon's revenue is $24.8 billion, but its profit is only $1.8 billion.
Raytheon's net income (profit) (=revenues minus expenses) is $1.8 billion; its revenues are higher. The market capitalization represents investors' expectations about the present value of all present and future profits, which may differ substantially from its book value.
Duoduoduo (
talk)
15:34, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
What if a woman unclean for seven days touched a public object(for example, a keyboard in an internet cafe), and it happened that I touched the object without knowing that it had been touched by an unclean woman and it was not cleaned according to the law, did I sin? Do I have to ask everyone if a public object is touched by an unclean person so I can be safe from uncleanness? What about the case of objects touched by thousands of people before me touching it? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.52.145.100 (
talk)
09:12, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think any serious teacher of Jewish law would hold that accidentally contracting ritual purity constitutes a sin in the traditional sense, nor are all modern rabbis (even Orthodox) of the opinion that such laws need be fully observed in modern times. Also keep in mind that no impurity is of an indefinite duration (with the possible exception of, IIRC, impurity from contact with a corpse, absent the red heifer ritual), so there would be no concern about the "thousands of people" before you. I also am not certain that merely touching an object such as a keyboard in the public domain is enough to transfer ritual impurity (though sitting in the same chair very well may be). You might try asking a rabbi about this if it is a practical concern for you.
Evanh2008(
talk|
contribs)09:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
It was presumably related to the installation of Anne Boleyn's daughter Elizabeth on the throne in 1558, after the death of
Mary I. Was it to retrospectively restore the title of "Queen" to Anne Boleyn?
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
13:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I have no idea about the title. In fact, I cannot imagine what it could be about. Mary I had her parents' marriage declared (or confirmed) valid and herself a legitimate child. Elizabeth I, as far as I know, never did anything to that effect; had she declared her mother's marriage to her father valid or implied that it was valid by restoring Anne's title, she would have undermined the newly-formed Church of England. Reportedly, during her entire life, she only mentioned her mother's name twice. So what was that act about?
Surtsicna (
talk)
16:16, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Um, why would declaring her parents' marriage valid have "undermined the Church of England"? Declaring it invalid certainly would have done so, since the marriage only went ahead bacuse pappy Pope was out of the picture. I'm somewhat confused by your argument.
Paul B (
talk)
16:40, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Because Anne Boleyn's marriage to Henry VIII was declared null and void by the Church of England in 1536, Paul B. Of course, it was an act of Parliament, but I doubt the Parliament's decision to pass the act in 1558 had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Elizabeth ascended the throne a couple of weeks earlier.
Surtsicna (
talk)
16:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Our article says that it was Cranmer who personally declared the marriage void, and this declaration was made the night before Anne's execution, more in order to protect Cranmer than for any other reason. So the voiding seemed not to have been Henry's idea, because surely he would have arranged that much earlier. And if it wasn't Henry's idea, then maybe Elizabeth was acting accordingly. Failing that, might this restoration of dignity have something to do with the
Marquessate of Pembroke? --
Jack of Oz[Talk]20:58, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Whatever the case, after May 1536, Henry always insisted that his marriage to Anne Boleyn was not valid. It is quite possible that it had something to do with the Marquessate of Pembroke. Perhaps Anne was retrospectively declared innocent and the marquessate was declared to have been hers up until the moment of her death (as opposed to merging with the Crown on her marriage or being forfeited)? Then again, it could be something completely unrelated to the marquessate.
Surtsicna (
talk)
23:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Can someone say on what ground? He could have executed her as an incestuous traitor (as he did) without having Elizabeth implied a bastard.
μηδείς (
talk)
23:30, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
For one thing, it was a bit less shocking to have your mistress executed than to do the same to your lawfully wedded wife the Queen. You can read about that
here. I don't think that is relevant here, though. The only question is what the 1558 act was about.
Surtsicna (
talk)
23:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm actually quite surprised that there isn't a public database of all the laws ever passed by the parliaments of Britain, showing their history, including details of all amendments and their current status. This one may not be a current statute, but it was once, and if people were expected to obey the law, there must have been some way of telling them what the law was. Even before the computer age, people would have needed this information in some form. --
Jack of Oz[Talk]01:10, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Legislation that had not been fully repealed (rather than amended) before 1991 is viewable online at
The UK Statute Law Database which is administered by
The National Archives. The only legislation for 1558 that is included is the
Act of Supremacy 1558; "An Acte restoring to the Crowne th'auncyent Jurisdiction over the State Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall, and abolyshing all Forreine Power repugnaunt to the same." (They don't write them like that any more). I suspect that transcribing all the many tens or hundreds of thousands of redundant acts onto a database is a skilled job that would take many decades to complete and be of great expense and very limited utility.
Alansplodge (
talk)
16:20, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That sounds very interesting, Alansplodge! Since Elizabeth ascended according to the
Third Succession Act and through her father (rather than through her mother), I am more inclined to believe that it has to do with the Boleyn inheritance after all. Whether it's her mother's marquessate or her maternal grandfather's earldom (see
Mary Boleyn#Early life, second paragraph), Elizabeth obviously had a reason to seek connection to her maternal legacy.
Surtsicna (
talk)
17:48, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Did Norway have native actors in the 18th century?
I remember once to have read an essay regarding travelling theatre companies in Norway in cirka 1800, which were described as being native and not foreign. However, I have found no examples of Norwegian actors in Norway prior to the establishment of the
Johan Peter Strömberg (later
Christiania Theater) in Oslo in 1827: this is described as the first permanent professional theatre in Norway. Where really all the travelling theatre companies that performed in Norway in the 18th century Danish or Swedish? What about, for example, the theatre of
Martin Nürenbach in Oslo in 1771-1772? Or were they actually no Norwegian actors until 1827? Thank you. --
85.226.41.14 (
talk)
17:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nazi salute
In our article
Nazi salute, there's a person crying in the picture. My question is, was this person forced to give the salute? It seems like she's a gipsy, was she a target?. Thank.
Kotjap (
talk)
18:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Gypsy people were targets, yes, so she might have been trying to protect herself by showing loyalty. Or, maybe she isn't a Gypsy but is of German origin, and is genuinely happy that the
Sudetenland has been annexed by Germany. People do sometimes cry when happy.
StuRat (
talk)
18:34, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Agree with your second point StuRat. The image was taken in the town of
ChebGerman: Eger which is a town right on the border with Czechoslovakia. It sat in a German-speaking area called
Egerland which had been Germanic from 807 AD and part of
Bohemia (latterly in the
Austro-Hungarian Empire) from 1322 to 1919. When the German-speaking townspeople found out that they had been excluded from German-speaking Austria and included in the new Czech state, there were demonstrations which were put down with force by the new Czech army. "...involving 54 deaths and well over one hundred injuries." It wasn't just losing their nationality that they were upset about; "In 1919 the [Czech] government confiscated one-fifth of each individual's holdings in paper currency. Germans, constituting the wealthiest element in the Czech lands, were most affected. The Land Control Act brought the expropriation of vast estates belonging to Germans. Land was allotted primarily to Czech peasants".[1] The manifest unfairness of the treatment of the
Sudeten Germans was one of the factors in Britain and France deciding to
appease Hitler and allow him to annex the
Sudatenland - Germany and Austria were unified by then.
So, the women in the picture is probably very happy and relieved rather than upset. Her embroidered waistcoat is typical of German and Austrian national dress, just wearing a headscarf doesn't prove that she's a Gypsy.
Alansplodge (
talk)
21:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That's a rather famous picture depicting the fact that the locals were required to come out and give the Nazi salute as the occupiers paraded by. There's no indication she's anything other than a Czech, perhaps a shopkeeper. People who cry when they are happy usually smile, however distortedly, not grimace as this woman is doing.
μηδείς (
talk)
20:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Have you seen the public service announcement on TV in the US now, featuring a school girl who is surprised when her father comes back from war and shows up in her class
[2] ? She is overcome by emotion, cries, and doesn't smile.
StuRat (
talk)
21:49, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Possibly, but what would be the motivation of a German official photographer taking a picture of somebody who was upset by their arrival? Also, the great majority of the townspeople were ethnic Germans. That was the point. The caption which follows the line that you suggest was added by the East German Communists and has a label on the Commons page saying; "This description has been identified as biased or incorrect: propaganda."Alansplodge (
talk)
21:10, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
There's actually a cropped version of the crying woman
here. The Nazi's captioned the picture "A Sudeten woman, overcome with emotion, pays homage as the Wehrmacht enters the Sudeten border town of Cheb" The American
NARA captioned it "The tragedy of this Sudeten woman, unable to conceal her misery as she dutifully salutes the triumphant Hitler, is the tragedy of the silent millions who have been 'won over' to Hitlerism by the 'everlasting use' of ruthless force."
RyanVesey21:43, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Happy or sad? The camera never lies...
So you can make your own decision, but for my money, the circumstantial evidence is on the side of Nazi propaganda and against US and East German variety.
Alansplodge (
talk)
21:50, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Probably we'll never know, in this life at least. But it might be worth pointing out that "crying for happiness" is ambiguous in the best of circumstances; the cryer is feeling pain of some sort, even if it's pain brought on by the contrast of this moment with the everyday, or anticipated mourning of the loss of the moment. In this case the woman may be happy at some level to welcome the Germans, but at another level have an intuition of what could be coming. Anyway I don't have any more evidence than anyone else (though there have been studies on the "pain" point, which should probably be mentioned in the
crying article), but it's a fascinating ambiguity to speculate on. --
Trovatore (
talk)
21:56, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
First, there's the context that the local occupied people were forced to turn out for the Nazi occupation parades whether they supported it or not, look at the crying people in the
http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212881/crypar.jpg famous Parisian picture] as well. Second, there's the fact that this woman is clearly grimacing, cover her face above her nose and look at just her mouth. That is not the sign of someone crying in joy--and she's certainly not crying in surprise.
μηδείς (
talk)
23:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
No Nazi salutes on that picture. And you have provided no sources for anything about people being forced to turn out for Nazi occupation parades, so we don't have the slightest reason to believe there is such a "context". And Alansplodge made a very good case for the argument that it was indeed a Sudeten German that was crying out of happiness. --
Saddhiyama (
talk)
23:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That's a good catch on the French picture, and certainly explains the lack of salutes. I am not quite sure how Alansplodge has argued away that fact that the crying bride picture shows a happy mouth (cover up the eyes and look) and the surprised daughter has an open mouth with no grimace. (I have to admit the bride picture looks posed, though.)
μηδείς (
talk)
20:34, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
BTW, in response to the caption above, the camera often lies, unless these tourists really were holding up the
Leaning Tower of Pisa:
[4]. 22:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
No, the camera is not lying there. The only lie is a part of your brain telling your conscious mind that those people are holding up the tower, but that's immediately countermanded by another part of your brain saying that such an interpretation is contrary to plausibility and there must be another explanation. Cameras don't lie, and computers don't make errors. --
Jack of Oz[Talk]01:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think that's a neutral expression Bugs; even though she isn't jumping for joy like the woman to her right (your left) it's pretty clear she is welcoming of the Nazis.
72.128.82.131 (
talk)
18:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I was looking at UK select committees and I count at least 4 (Defence, Home Affairs, Scottish, Welsh) of them which don't have a majority for the government parties. Is there any reason? Isn't it counterproductive to do this because the government won't necessarily be able to get a majority on committee votes (obviously assuming no-one rebels)?
User:SamUK18:45, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
You'll note that they are meant to be chosen "independently of the party whips, as chosen by the Select Committee of Selection" per
Select_committees_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom. In theory they are meant to offer some degree of independent scrutiny of different aspects of the work of the parliament, and are not there to follow party lines. Often in many cases members will bring some special personal expertise to the work of the committee. Perhaps it is a fiction, but my impression is the committees take their job of independent scrutiny quite seriously and are often noted to come up with recommendations that the government might not be happy with. --
nonsenseferret19:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I see the logic in that. But wouldn't the majority party (parties) want a situation where they have maximum influence. Obviously when one party has an overall majority in the HoC, it is simpler; but even with the current makeup, wouldn't the Conservatives and Lib Dems have something to gain if they had a majority between themselves. For the Conservatives, they would have exactly half the committee seats, meaning they can block if the Lib Dem member votes with Labour MPs. And for the Lib Dem it would give them balance of power. At the moment, the opposition members on the committees I named can block the Cons and Libs.
User:SamUK20:40, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I found the content of this speech quite interesting from the Speaker of the House of Commons -
[5] - he puts forward the view very strongly that given the purpose of the committees is to be a check and balance against the unfettered exercise of power by the executive, then it should be removed as much as possible from the influences of the main party machinery. This is I think very much the traditional view, and has broad support across the benches. The Government of today will be the opposition of tomorrow, and that is something they will probably bear in mind. In some countries there is a clear written constitution that sets out the clear checks and balances that must be adhered to, and the processes of scrutiny. That isn't really the case in the
UK, but it would be a mistake to think that there are no effective checks and balances. It is a fascinating subject, thanks for asking the question. The Government of the day tend to recognise that some of these long-standing 'conventions' are worth having, even if sometimes it seems to get in the way of doing what they want to do. --
nonsenseferret21:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
What was the geography of Deheubarth when King Henry III granted the homage and lordship of Maredudd to Llywelyn for the payment of 5,000 marks on 30 August 1270?
Very rural. Hills and valleys as at present. No canals; river courses would not have been straightened or embanked, at least not so much as today. Probably more woodland and heathland than today. Small settlements, and there is a distinctive
Celtic field pattern.
Dry stone walls and
hedgerows. Lots of sheep and cattle, some cereals. Castles and abbeys. Others may know more.
Itsmejudith (
talk)
23:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Deheubarth is broadly the area now covered by
Pembrokeshire,
Carmarthenshire, and
Ceredigion, and looking at information on those areas will give you a general picture. The areas won't have changed that much over a mere 700 years or so. So, it had a long coastline, backed with lowlying marshes and dunes in the south, hilly rather than mountainous elsewhere, and, as has been said, very rural but with fishing and farming villages and small market towns.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
16:11, 18 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The Preseli Hills in Pembrokeshire
Although some of the hills are quite big by British standards, the
Brecon Beacons, and the
Black Mountains for example.
Sorry, I was misreading the map I linked you to - the
Preseli Hills is a better link. I have an idea that the today's bare hills and moors are a product of the intensive sheep grazing introduced in the 19th century, and that it would be much more heavily wooded in the middle ages. Woodland would be
Sessile oak,
ash,
hazel and
alder - apart from a few
yews and
junipers, there were no conifers in Wales until the 17th century.
Alansplodge (
talk)
18:00, 18 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Page 32 of this source indicates that deforestation took place in pre-Roman times, so the prevailing landscape during the Middle Ages would already have been the grassy uplands and heaths that exist today. There would have been some woodlands, mainly on the steeper slopes and deeper valleys.
Marco polo (
talk)
19:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
current reference desk pages.
February 16 Information
Italian Monopoly on Papacy
How come all Popes between 1523 and 1978 (for 455 years) were Italians? Was this a coincidence, or was there something more to it? Does the fact that the Papal Residence is very close to Italy (and previously, to some Italian city states) have anything to do with this?
Futurist110 (
talk)
00:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
For much of that period, the Papacy was a political power as well as the head of the Church. As such, they had all the usual problems, like needing to avoid wars with their neighbors, which other states accomplished through intermarriage, etc. One way for the Papacy to do so was to appoint a Pope from a neighboring city-state, which would certainly help to prevent war with them. Later on, having an Italian Pope just became a tradition.
StuRat (
talk)
01:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Italy was also highly overrepresented in the number of its Cardinals, to the point, I believe, of having a majority in the conclave--but I am not sure where to find this information, so take that as reference needed.
μηδείς (
talk)
01:12, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't know that it's an outright majority any more, but it's definitely a plurality of the eligible-to-vote cardinals. I believe the article I saw said 28 Italians are eligible to vote for the Pope, with something like 11 Americans as the next-most-powerful nation voting bloc. —
Lomn03:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Help me here please. The word plurality is not a common word where I come from, although I know I've seen discussion of it somewhere here on Wikipedia, and suitably forgotten. What's it mean?
HiLo48 (
talk)
03:33, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
...meaning it's the largest group. So, here it means that Italians have more votes than anyone else, even though they don't have more than half the votes.
StuRat (
talk)
17:44, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
It is entirely because the seat of the papacy was in Rome. Of course, prior to the middle 1800s, there was no Italy; there was a plethora of states on the Italian peninsula, and they spoke a variety of languages and had a variety of cultures. But the fact that all Popes came from near Rome is entirely understandable, if for no other reason than the Pope was the ruler of a large country known as the
Papal States, and inviting some foreigner in to rule was not, at the time, seen as a good idea. After all, it didn't go so well for Poland when they did just that. The Italian Papacy was pretty much secured by the results of the
Western Schism, which was a controversy over whether Rome or Avignon (in France) would be the seat of the Papacy. It is no coincidence that the Avignon Popes were almost all French. After the Great Schism, the power in the Papacy returned to Rome, and Rome was committed to keeping it that way. --
Jayron3203:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
It isn't right to say that prior to the mid-1800s, there was no Italy. It is absolutely true that there was no single Italian state, and Italian regional identities were stronger, but from the time of the early Renaissance at the latest, all of Italy shared a common standard language and literary culture as well as a coherent economy. The careers of the great early modern Italian artists and writers show a lot of geographic mobility among the various city-states of the peninsula. This shows cultural and economic coherence in the absence of political unity. In this context, an Italian from outside the Papal States would not have been seen as a foreigner by residents of those states. By contrast, a French, Spanish, or German pope might have had more difficulty ruling the Papal States.
Marco polo (
talk)
19:51, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Itschory - Itsyursk - Itsiursk
I wish to pin down the location and current name of the place called Itschory, the birth place of
Vasily Safonov. All we're told there is that it was in the Russian
Caucasus. A google search for Itschory just turns up a few thousand hits for Safonov, where his birth place is just parroted mindlessly.
Another variant I've seen is Itsyursk, but a google search again gives me many hits about Safonov and nothing about the place itself.
My 1954 Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians renders it as "Itsiursk, Terek, Caucasus". Google gives me no hits for Itsiursk at all. Grove's goes on "He was the son of a Cossack general living in a village in the northern Caucasus, on the banks of the romantic
river Terek, sung by the poets Pushkin and Lermontov". But whether the first mention of Terek was a reference to the river or to either of the localities mentioned at
Terek, Russia, I could not say.
Since Safonov's birth in 1852, there has been rather a lot of political and military activity in this whole region, and what Itschory - Itsyursk - Itsiursk was back then is almost certainly not what it is today. It might have been swallowed up in some larger conurbation. It might have been wiped out in some conflict. It could even be in
Georgia.
Wow, vagaries indeed. I must be losing the plot, because it never occurred to me to check in ru:WP. Thanks for the quick detective work, Mr McWalter. --
Jack of Oz[Talk]01:58, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Resolved
Sesquialtera
The Spanish baroque composer
Gaspar Sanz wrote some pieces entitled "Sesquialtera", and I was wondering how these pieces are supposed to be played/interpreted. I cannot find any information about this kind of piece (suppose it must be a dance, as most pieces by Sanz were); and just going by the tablature and score I have, I'm not really sure of how to play them. I searched in some musical encyclopedias, only finding stuff about organ stops, and even Wikipedia doesn't give me more. The pieces contain some strange harmonies, making them quite interesting. Anybody able to help?
MuDavid (
talk)
02:11, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Favorite pastime of the Eskimo (also known as Inuit)
why does our article says raytheon has revenue of $24Bn, assets of $25Bn, but yahoo finance says its whole market cap is only $17bn (just a few months of revenue)? am i making a mistake or looking at two different companys? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.101.32.82 (
talk)
08:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
First of all, you're confusing
revenue with
profit. Raytheon's revenue is $24.8 billion, but its profit is only $1.8 billion.
Raytheon's net income (profit) (=revenues minus expenses) is $1.8 billion; its revenues are higher. The market capitalization represents investors' expectations about the present value of all present and future profits, which may differ substantially from its book value.
Duoduoduo (
talk)
15:34, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
What if a woman unclean for seven days touched a public object(for example, a keyboard in an internet cafe), and it happened that I touched the object without knowing that it had been touched by an unclean woman and it was not cleaned according to the law, did I sin? Do I have to ask everyone if a public object is touched by an unclean person so I can be safe from uncleanness? What about the case of objects touched by thousands of people before me touching it? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
122.52.145.100 (
talk)
09:12, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think any serious teacher of Jewish law would hold that accidentally contracting ritual purity constitutes a sin in the traditional sense, nor are all modern rabbis (even Orthodox) of the opinion that such laws need be fully observed in modern times. Also keep in mind that no impurity is of an indefinite duration (with the possible exception of, IIRC, impurity from contact with a corpse, absent the red heifer ritual), so there would be no concern about the "thousands of people" before you. I also am not certain that merely touching an object such as a keyboard in the public domain is enough to transfer ritual impurity (though sitting in the same chair very well may be). You might try asking a rabbi about this if it is a practical concern for you.
Evanh2008(
talk|
contribs)09:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
It was presumably related to the installation of Anne Boleyn's daughter Elizabeth on the throne in 1558, after the death of
Mary I. Was it to retrospectively restore the title of "Queen" to Anne Boleyn?
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
13:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I have no idea about the title. In fact, I cannot imagine what it could be about. Mary I had her parents' marriage declared (or confirmed) valid and herself a legitimate child. Elizabeth I, as far as I know, never did anything to that effect; had she declared her mother's marriage to her father valid or implied that it was valid by restoring Anne's title, she would have undermined the newly-formed Church of England. Reportedly, during her entire life, she only mentioned her mother's name twice. So what was that act about?
Surtsicna (
talk)
16:16, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Um, why would declaring her parents' marriage valid have "undermined the Church of England"? Declaring it invalid certainly would have done so, since the marriage only went ahead bacuse pappy Pope was out of the picture. I'm somewhat confused by your argument.
Paul B (
talk)
16:40, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Because Anne Boleyn's marriage to Henry VIII was declared null and void by the Church of England in 1536, Paul B. Of course, it was an act of Parliament, but I doubt the Parliament's decision to pass the act in 1558 had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Elizabeth ascended the throne a couple of weeks earlier.
Surtsicna (
talk)
16:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Our article says that it was Cranmer who personally declared the marriage void, and this declaration was made the night before Anne's execution, more in order to protect Cranmer than for any other reason. So the voiding seemed not to have been Henry's idea, because surely he would have arranged that much earlier. And if it wasn't Henry's idea, then maybe Elizabeth was acting accordingly. Failing that, might this restoration of dignity have something to do with the
Marquessate of Pembroke? --
Jack of Oz[Talk]20:58, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Whatever the case, after May 1536, Henry always insisted that his marriage to Anne Boleyn was not valid. It is quite possible that it had something to do with the Marquessate of Pembroke. Perhaps Anne was retrospectively declared innocent and the marquessate was declared to have been hers up until the moment of her death (as opposed to merging with the Crown on her marriage or being forfeited)? Then again, it could be something completely unrelated to the marquessate.
Surtsicna (
talk)
23:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Can someone say on what ground? He could have executed her as an incestuous traitor (as he did) without having Elizabeth implied a bastard.
μηδείς (
talk)
23:30, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
For one thing, it was a bit less shocking to have your mistress executed than to do the same to your lawfully wedded wife the Queen. You can read about that
here. I don't think that is relevant here, though. The only question is what the 1558 act was about.
Surtsicna (
talk)
23:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm actually quite surprised that there isn't a public database of all the laws ever passed by the parliaments of Britain, showing their history, including details of all amendments and their current status. This one may not be a current statute, but it was once, and if people were expected to obey the law, there must have been some way of telling them what the law was. Even before the computer age, people would have needed this information in some form. --
Jack of Oz[Talk]01:10, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Legislation that had not been fully repealed (rather than amended) before 1991 is viewable online at
The UK Statute Law Database which is administered by
The National Archives. The only legislation for 1558 that is included is the
Act of Supremacy 1558; "An Acte restoring to the Crowne th'auncyent Jurisdiction over the State Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall, and abolyshing all Forreine Power repugnaunt to the same." (They don't write them like that any more). I suspect that transcribing all the many tens or hundreds of thousands of redundant acts onto a database is a skilled job that would take many decades to complete and be of great expense and very limited utility.
Alansplodge (
talk)
16:20, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That sounds very interesting, Alansplodge! Since Elizabeth ascended according to the
Third Succession Act and through her father (rather than through her mother), I am more inclined to believe that it has to do with the Boleyn inheritance after all. Whether it's her mother's marquessate or her maternal grandfather's earldom (see
Mary Boleyn#Early life, second paragraph), Elizabeth obviously had a reason to seek connection to her maternal legacy.
Surtsicna (
talk)
17:48, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Did Norway have native actors in the 18th century?
I remember once to have read an essay regarding travelling theatre companies in Norway in cirka 1800, which were described as being native and not foreign. However, I have found no examples of Norwegian actors in Norway prior to the establishment of the
Johan Peter Strömberg (later
Christiania Theater) in Oslo in 1827: this is described as the first permanent professional theatre in Norway. Where really all the travelling theatre companies that performed in Norway in the 18th century Danish or Swedish? What about, for example, the theatre of
Martin Nürenbach in Oslo in 1771-1772? Or were they actually no Norwegian actors until 1827? Thank you. --
85.226.41.14 (
talk)
17:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nazi salute
In our article
Nazi salute, there's a person crying in the picture. My question is, was this person forced to give the salute? It seems like she's a gipsy, was she a target?. Thank.
Kotjap (
talk)
18:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Gypsy people were targets, yes, so she might have been trying to protect herself by showing loyalty. Or, maybe she isn't a Gypsy but is of German origin, and is genuinely happy that the
Sudetenland has been annexed by Germany. People do sometimes cry when happy.
StuRat (
talk)
18:34, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Agree with your second point StuRat. The image was taken in the town of
ChebGerman: Eger which is a town right on the border with Czechoslovakia. It sat in a German-speaking area called
Egerland which had been Germanic from 807 AD and part of
Bohemia (latterly in the
Austro-Hungarian Empire) from 1322 to 1919. When the German-speaking townspeople found out that they had been excluded from German-speaking Austria and included in the new Czech state, there were demonstrations which were put down with force by the new Czech army. "...involving 54 deaths and well over one hundred injuries." It wasn't just losing their nationality that they were upset about; "In 1919 the [Czech] government confiscated one-fifth of each individual's holdings in paper currency. Germans, constituting the wealthiest element in the Czech lands, were most affected. The Land Control Act brought the expropriation of vast estates belonging to Germans. Land was allotted primarily to Czech peasants".[1] The manifest unfairness of the treatment of the
Sudeten Germans was one of the factors in Britain and France deciding to
appease Hitler and allow him to annex the
Sudatenland - Germany and Austria were unified by then.
So, the women in the picture is probably very happy and relieved rather than upset. Her embroidered waistcoat is typical of German and Austrian national dress, just wearing a headscarf doesn't prove that she's a Gypsy.
Alansplodge (
talk)
21:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That's a rather famous picture depicting the fact that the locals were required to come out and give the Nazi salute as the occupiers paraded by. There's no indication she's anything other than a Czech, perhaps a shopkeeper. People who cry when they are happy usually smile, however distortedly, not grimace as this woman is doing.
μηδείς (
talk)
20:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Have you seen the public service announcement on TV in the US now, featuring a school girl who is surprised when her father comes back from war and shows up in her class
[2] ? She is overcome by emotion, cries, and doesn't smile.
StuRat (
talk)
21:49, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Possibly, but what would be the motivation of a German official photographer taking a picture of somebody who was upset by their arrival? Also, the great majority of the townspeople were ethnic Germans. That was the point. The caption which follows the line that you suggest was added by the East German Communists and has a label on the Commons page saying; "This description has been identified as biased or incorrect: propaganda."Alansplodge (
talk)
21:10, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
There's actually a cropped version of the crying woman
here. The Nazi's captioned the picture "A Sudeten woman, overcome with emotion, pays homage as the Wehrmacht enters the Sudeten border town of Cheb" The American
NARA captioned it "The tragedy of this Sudeten woman, unable to conceal her misery as she dutifully salutes the triumphant Hitler, is the tragedy of the silent millions who have been 'won over' to Hitlerism by the 'everlasting use' of ruthless force."
RyanVesey21:43, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Happy or sad? The camera never lies...
So you can make your own decision, but for my money, the circumstantial evidence is on the side of Nazi propaganda and against US and East German variety.
Alansplodge (
talk)
21:50, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Probably we'll never know, in this life at least. But it might be worth pointing out that "crying for happiness" is ambiguous in the best of circumstances; the cryer is feeling pain of some sort, even if it's pain brought on by the contrast of this moment with the everyday, or anticipated mourning of the loss of the moment. In this case the woman may be happy at some level to welcome the Germans, but at another level have an intuition of what could be coming. Anyway I don't have any more evidence than anyone else (though there have been studies on the "pain" point, which should probably be mentioned in the
crying article), but it's a fascinating ambiguity to speculate on. --
Trovatore (
talk)
21:56, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
First, there's the context that the local occupied people were forced to turn out for the Nazi occupation parades whether they supported it or not, look at the crying people in the
http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212881/crypar.jpg famous Parisian picture] as well. Second, there's the fact that this woman is clearly grimacing, cover her face above her nose and look at just her mouth. That is not the sign of someone crying in joy--and she's certainly not crying in surprise.
μηδείς (
talk)
23:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
No Nazi salutes on that picture. And you have provided no sources for anything about people being forced to turn out for Nazi occupation parades, so we don't have the slightest reason to believe there is such a "context". And Alansplodge made a very good case for the argument that it was indeed a Sudeten German that was crying out of happiness. --
Saddhiyama (
talk)
23:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
That's a good catch on the French picture, and certainly explains the lack of salutes. I am not quite sure how Alansplodge has argued away that fact that the crying bride picture shows a happy mouth (cover up the eyes and look) and the surprised daughter has an open mouth with no grimace. (I have to admit the bride picture looks posed, though.)
μηδείς (
talk)
20:34, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
BTW, in response to the caption above, the camera often lies, unless these tourists really were holding up the
Leaning Tower of Pisa:
[4]. 22:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
No, the camera is not lying there. The only lie is a part of your brain telling your conscious mind that those people are holding up the tower, but that's immediately countermanded by another part of your brain saying that such an interpretation is contrary to plausibility and there must be another explanation. Cameras don't lie, and computers don't make errors. --
Jack of Oz[Talk]01:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think that's a neutral expression Bugs; even though she isn't jumping for joy like the woman to her right (your left) it's pretty clear she is welcoming of the Nazis.
72.128.82.131 (
talk)
18:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I was looking at UK select committees and I count at least 4 (Defence, Home Affairs, Scottish, Welsh) of them which don't have a majority for the government parties. Is there any reason? Isn't it counterproductive to do this because the government won't necessarily be able to get a majority on committee votes (obviously assuming no-one rebels)?
User:SamUK18:45, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
You'll note that they are meant to be chosen "independently of the party whips, as chosen by the Select Committee of Selection" per
Select_committees_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom. In theory they are meant to offer some degree of independent scrutiny of different aspects of the work of the parliament, and are not there to follow party lines. Often in many cases members will bring some special personal expertise to the work of the committee. Perhaps it is a fiction, but my impression is the committees take their job of independent scrutiny quite seriously and are often noted to come up with recommendations that the government might not be happy with. --
nonsenseferret19:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I see the logic in that. But wouldn't the majority party (parties) want a situation where they have maximum influence. Obviously when one party has an overall majority in the HoC, it is simpler; but even with the current makeup, wouldn't the Conservatives and Lib Dems have something to gain if they had a majority between themselves. For the Conservatives, they would have exactly half the committee seats, meaning they can block if the Lib Dem member votes with Labour MPs. And for the Lib Dem it would give them balance of power. At the moment, the opposition members on the committees I named can block the Cons and Libs.
User:SamUK20:40, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I found the content of this speech quite interesting from the Speaker of the House of Commons -
[5] - he puts forward the view very strongly that given the purpose of the committees is to be a check and balance against the unfettered exercise of power by the executive, then it should be removed as much as possible from the influences of the main party machinery. This is I think very much the traditional view, and has broad support across the benches. The Government of today will be the opposition of tomorrow, and that is something they will probably bear in mind. In some countries there is a clear written constitution that sets out the clear checks and balances that must be adhered to, and the processes of scrutiny. That isn't really the case in the
UK, but it would be a mistake to think that there are no effective checks and balances. It is a fascinating subject, thanks for asking the question. The Government of the day tend to recognise that some of these long-standing 'conventions' are worth having, even if sometimes it seems to get in the way of doing what they want to do. --
nonsenseferret21:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)reply
What was the geography of Deheubarth when King Henry III granted the homage and lordship of Maredudd to Llywelyn for the payment of 5,000 marks on 30 August 1270?
Very rural. Hills and valleys as at present. No canals; river courses would not have been straightened or embanked, at least not so much as today. Probably more woodland and heathland than today. Small settlements, and there is a distinctive
Celtic field pattern.
Dry stone walls and
hedgerows. Lots of sheep and cattle, some cereals. Castles and abbeys. Others may know more.
Itsmejudith (
talk)
23:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Deheubarth is broadly the area now covered by
Pembrokeshire,
Carmarthenshire, and
Ceredigion, and looking at information on those areas will give you a general picture. The areas won't have changed that much over a mere 700 years or so. So, it had a long coastline, backed with lowlying marshes and dunes in the south, hilly rather than mountainous elsewhere, and, as has been said, very rural but with fishing and farming villages and small market towns.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
16:11, 18 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The Preseli Hills in Pembrokeshire
Although some of the hills are quite big by British standards, the
Brecon Beacons, and the
Black Mountains for example.
Sorry, I was misreading the map I linked you to - the
Preseli Hills is a better link. I have an idea that the today's bare hills and moors are a product of the intensive sheep grazing introduced in the 19th century, and that it would be much more heavily wooded in the middle ages. Woodland would be
Sessile oak,
ash,
hazel and
alder - apart from a few
yews and
junipers, there were no conifers in Wales until the 17th century.
Alansplodge (
talk)
18:00, 18 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Page 32 of this source indicates that deforestation took place in pre-Roman times, so the prevailing landscape during the Middle Ages would already have been the grassy uplands and heaths that exist today. There would have been some woodlands, mainly on the steeper slopes and deeper valleys.
Marco polo (
talk)
19:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)reply