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November 18 Information
After playing Bach's Prelude and Fugue in C-sharp major, I was wondering if there would be any versions of music that would enharmonically change the notes of a hard key signature. For example, in his Fugue, he has many D, E and F double sharps. Wouldn't it be much easier on the pianist if there was a version where D double sharp would be E natural and so on? I took almost a month to finally get all the notes right, so it would be much faster to learn and the end result, using the real key signature, wouldn't be much different.
Thanks in advance, 110.175.152.166 ( talk) 04:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- In Bach's time, instruments were tuned to
Meantone temperament which used a spacing between notes that meant that each "key" had a unique sound; changing keys meant changing the spacing between notes; so if you played a piece in C-sharp and then transposed to D-sharp, the spacing of the third in C-sharp wouln't be identical to the spacing of the third in D-sharp; that is why most classical composers were very picky about the key they wrote in; each key had a unique "sound" which could not be translated directly into another key. Modern instruments are tuned to
Equal temperament, which means that keys are fully transposable. A piece played in C-sharp sounds exactly like a piece in D-sharp, just of a lower pitch. In meantone temperament, the lack of ability to transpose or modulate easily meant heavy use of accidentals in order to get exactly the notes the composer wanted. In modern equal temperament tunings, the composer just chooses a key which will allow for the most efficient writing (i.e. avoid accidentals) since all keys are equivalent. Bach did not have that luxury, and so chose his keys for sonic and harmonic reasons, not to make the music easy or efficient to sight read. --
Jayron
32 05:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think the OP is asking why the music can't be printed with E natural instead of Dx (etc), while still being in the key of C#, which would have the same sound but might be easier to read. I suppose the answer is that it would be "theoretically" wrong in the sense that it wouldn't show the harmonic structure of the music correctly. Whether it would actually be easier to read is perhaps debatable: if the music modulates into "D# major" it might help to see a chord of D#/Fx/A# rather than D#/G/A# (of course Eb/G/Bb would be even easier).
AndrewWTaylor (
talk) 16:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Because, strictly speaking, E natural is only enharmonic to D## in equal temperament tunings. For instruments using keyboards, meantone temperament works such that certain useful intervals are actually impossible to play, leading to approximations (see wolf interval) which can be quite dissonant. If you're playing a violin, you play the tone that works harmonically, since you aren't constrained to a fixed interval. As a classic example, in meantone temperament, the sum of three major thirds is NOT a perfect octave, though our sense is that it should be. (12 semitones = 1 octave, so three groups of 4 semitones should also be an octave). In fact, in meantone temperament, 3 successive major thirds above C3 is B#4, not C4. The difference between B#4 and C4 is called the diesis. Another way to look at equal temperament is that it is the tuning for which the diesis = 0. To anwser why the modern music of a Bach score still uses double sharps and things like that, its because that's how Bach wrote it. Ideally, if you wanted to play it true to the original composition, you would tune all of your instruments to meantone temperament. In practice, we just play the piece in modern "equal temperament", which is technically wrong (slightly) but still close, to the original music. -- Jayron 32 19:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think the OP is asking why the music can't be printed with E natural instead of Dx (etc), while still being in the key of C#, which would have the same sound but might be easier to read. I suppose the answer is that it would be "theoretically" wrong in the sense that it wouldn't show the harmonic structure of the music correctly. Whether it would actually be easier to read is perhaps debatable: if the music modulates into "D# major" it might help to see a chord of D#/Fx/A# rather than D#/G/A# (of course Eb/G/Bb would be even easier).
AndrewWTaylor (
talk) 16:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- What Jayron says is one of the purists' arguments about why Bach should not be played on the piano (which didn't exist in Bach's day). But the purists who twang away on their rotten harpsichords, "because that's what Bach intended", don't afaik use meantone temperament, so even they don't play the music the way Bach envisaged it. On the original question: I have occasionally seen music full of accidentals written out in an easier way for students. There's a 20-odd-bar passage towards the end of Chopin's Polonaise-Fantasie that's nominally in B major (5 sharps) but is replete with sharps and double sharps, and one score I once had provided an alternative version of this passage, re-written in a different key and removing almost all the accidentals. It sounded exactly the same and was much easier to play for the student. Never seen it for Bach, though.--
JackofOz (
talk) 20:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I've also got a score of Chopin's E minor concerto, in which a lengthly G♯ major passage in the second movement is rewritten as A♭ major (complete with a key signature change – in Chopin's notation, the original four sharps of E major are retained through this G♯ major passage). Double sharp ( talk) 09:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
- What Jayron says is one of the purists' arguments about why Bach should not be played on the piano (which didn't exist in Bach's day). But the purists who twang away on their rotten harpsichords, "because that's what Bach intended", don't afaik use meantone temperament, so even they don't play the music the way Bach envisaged it. On the original question: I have occasionally seen music full of accidentals written out in an easier way for students. There's a 20-odd-bar passage towards the end of Chopin's Polonaise-Fantasie that's nominally in B major (5 sharps) but is replete with sharps and double sharps, and one score I once had provided an alternative version of this passage, re-written in a different key and removing almost all the accidentals. It sounded exactly the same and was much easier to play for the student. Never seen it for Bach, though.--
JackofOz (
talk) 20:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for all the replies, although I wasn't asking about the equal temperament it certainly made good reading. I asked this question because when I learn music with double sharps/sharps/double flats I write down the enharmonic notes. For example in Albeniz El Puerto I wrote under the notes 'D E Fsharp G" etc.
I have a supplementary question- like Bach in his Prelude and Fugue in E-flat minor, are there any composers who choose to change the key of their work to make it easier to play? (Bach changed from E-flat minor to D-sharp minor) 202.7.205.66 ( talk) 04:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know, but there certainly are examples of publishers taking it upon themselves to to change the key of a piece, in order to ensure greater sales. The one at the front of my mind is Schubert's Impromptu No. 3 in G flat major, which, without Schubert's knowledge or consent, was transposed into G major for publication. -- JackofOz ( talk) 20:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
ResolvedHi,
I'm trying to trace the name and publisher of a ZX Spectrum computer game that I remember from childhood.
It was developed fairly late in the Spectrums life and basically involved piloting some kind of space craft. The screen was split horizontally with instrumentation along the bottom third of the screen and an outside view for the top two thirds. There may have been ticker messages displayed across the very top of the screen at various points.
I seem to remember the gameplay consisting of three main tasks. The first was piloting a space craft using a first-person view. Secondly you followed a wire-frame set of rectangles that marked a 3D route into orbit around a planet and lastly you began flying at low level over a planetary surface. Both the space and planet sections required you to avoid objects (and enemies maybe?).
The game had two features that I believe were unique at the time. Firstly, in one of the sections, you could see large 3D letters spinning in space. By flying through them you collected the letters and once all had been collected in a given level a word could be made which served as some sort of password or level key. Secondly, the text displayed in messages on screen and used when entering high scores was, very distinctively, a proportional font rather than the Spectrum's standard non-proportional one.
I may be running 2 or more games together into one amalgam memory here...
Any suggestions on what game (or games) I might be remembering would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks everyone.
Badman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.201.28 ( talk) 17:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Could it be Elite (video game)? APL ( talk) 17:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I doesn't sound like elite, but I played elite on a BBC, so the Spectrum version may have been different. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 16:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I remember this one - it was called Starion. See
this
Anonymous Bob (
talk) 12:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- That's the one! Thanks Anonymous Bob. The link gives great info including a reference to another Speccy game, "Dark Star" which is where my faulty memory had plucked the planet-based sections and the wireframe rectangular orbital manouevering from (actually planet warp gates in Dark Star). Two birds killed with one stone! Thanks again Bob.
can 24 inch rims fit on a chrysler 300....and if so what needs to be done to make them fit?
- At the risk of stating the obvious, your Chrysler dealer will know. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 16:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Anything is possible if money is no object. Googlemeister ( talk) 21:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- No, not without modifications, according to this answer: [1]. 23" is the largest, unless you're willing to shave the bolts down on the front arm to provide adequate clearance. StuRat ( talk) 22:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
What time signature is this song set too? Peter Greenwell ( talk) 23:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds like pretty straight-forward 4/4 to me. At a pinch it could be 2/4, but it's certainly not anything more exotic than that.
Grutness...
wha? 05:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, thought with that countrified galloping beat, it'd be something weird like 5/8. Meh, what would I know. Thanks for your help. Peter Greenwell ( talk) 10:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
| Entertainment desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < November 17 | << Oct | November | Dec >> | November 19 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Entertainment Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
November 18 Information
After playing Bach's Prelude and Fugue in C-sharp major, I was wondering if there would be any versions of music that would enharmonically change the notes of a hard key signature. For example, in his Fugue, he has many D, E and F double sharps. Wouldn't it be much easier on the pianist if there was a version where D double sharp would be E natural and so on? I took almost a month to finally get all the notes right, so it would be much faster to learn and the end result, using the real key signature, wouldn't be much different.
Thanks in advance, 110.175.152.166 ( talk) 04:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- In Bach's time, instruments were tuned to
Meantone temperament which used a spacing between notes that meant that each "key" had a unique sound; changing keys meant changing the spacing between notes; so if you played a piece in C-sharp and then transposed to D-sharp, the spacing of the third in C-sharp wouln't be identical to the spacing of the third in D-sharp; that is why most classical composers were very picky about the key they wrote in; each key had a unique "sound" which could not be translated directly into another key. Modern instruments are tuned to
Equal temperament, which means that keys are fully transposable. A piece played in C-sharp sounds exactly like a piece in D-sharp, just of a lower pitch. In meantone temperament, the lack of ability to transpose or modulate easily meant heavy use of accidentals in order to get exactly the notes the composer wanted. In modern equal temperament tunings, the composer just chooses a key which will allow for the most efficient writing (i.e. avoid accidentals) since all keys are equivalent. Bach did not have that luxury, and so chose his keys for sonic and harmonic reasons, not to make the music easy or efficient to sight read. --
Jayron
32 05:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think the OP is asking why the music can't be printed with E natural instead of Dx (etc), while still being in the key of C#, which would have the same sound but might be easier to read. I suppose the answer is that it would be "theoretically" wrong in the sense that it wouldn't show the harmonic structure of the music correctly. Whether it would actually be easier to read is perhaps debatable: if the music modulates into "D# major" it might help to see a chord of D#/Fx/A# rather than D#/G/A# (of course Eb/G/Bb would be even easier).
AndrewWTaylor (
talk) 16:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Because, strictly speaking, E natural is only enharmonic to D## in equal temperament tunings. For instruments using keyboards, meantone temperament works such that certain useful intervals are actually impossible to play, leading to approximations (see wolf interval) which can be quite dissonant. If you're playing a violin, you play the tone that works harmonically, since you aren't constrained to a fixed interval. As a classic example, in meantone temperament, the sum of three major thirds is NOT a perfect octave, though our sense is that it should be. (12 semitones = 1 octave, so three groups of 4 semitones should also be an octave). In fact, in meantone temperament, 3 successive major thirds above C3 is B#4, not C4. The difference between B#4 and C4 is called the diesis. Another way to look at equal temperament is that it is the tuning for which the diesis = 0. To anwser why the modern music of a Bach score still uses double sharps and things like that, its because that's how Bach wrote it. Ideally, if you wanted to play it true to the original composition, you would tune all of your instruments to meantone temperament. In practice, we just play the piece in modern "equal temperament", which is technically wrong (slightly) but still close, to the original music. -- Jayron 32 19:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think the OP is asking why the music can't be printed with E natural instead of Dx (etc), while still being in the key of C#, which would have the same sound but might be easier to read. I suppose the answer is that it would be "theoretically" wrong in the sense that it wouldn't show the harmonic structure of the music correctly. Whether it would actually be easier to read is perhaps debatable: if the music modulates into "D# major" it might help to see a chord of D#/Fx/A# rather than D#/G/A# (of course Eb/G/Bb would be even easier).
AndrewWTaylor (
talk) 16:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- What Jayron says is one of the purists' arguments about why Bach should not be played on the piano (which didn't exist in Bach's day). But the purists who twang away on their rotten harpsichords, "because that's what Bach intended", don't afaik use meantone temperament, so even they don't play the music the way Bach envisaged it. On the original question: I have occasionally seen music full of accidentals written out in an easier way for students. There's a 20-odd-bar passage towards the end of Chopin's Polonaise-Fantasie that's nominally in B major (5 sharps) but is replete with sharps and double sharps, and one score I once had provided an alternative version of this passage, re-written in a different key and removing almost all the accidentals. It sounded exactly the same and was much easier to play for the student. Never seen it for Bach, though.--
JackofOz (
talk) 20:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I've also got a score of Chopin's E minor concerto, in which a lengthly G♯ major passage in the second movement is rewritten as A♭ major (complete with a key signature change – in Chopin's notation, the original four sharps of E major are retained through this G♯ major passage). Double sharp ( talk) 09:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
- What Jayron says is one of the purists' arguments about why Bach should not be played on the piano (which didn't exist in Bach's day). But the purists who twang away on their rotten harpsichords, "because that's what Bach intended", don't afaik use meantone temperament, so even they don't play the music the way Bach envisaged it. On the original question: I have occasionally seen music full of accidentals written out in an easier way for students. There's a 20-odd-bar passage towards the end of Chopin's Polonaise-Fantasie that's nominally in B major (5 sharps) but is replete with sharps and double sharps, and one score I once had provided an alternative version of this passage, re-written in a different key and removing almost all the accidentals. It sounded exactly the same and was much easier to play for the student. Never seen it for Bach, though.--
JackofOz (
talk) 20:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for all the replies, although I wasn't asking about the equal temperament it certainly made good reading. I asked this question because when I learn music with double sharps/sharps/double flats I write down the enharmonic notes. For example in Albeniz El Puerto I wrote under the notes 'D E Fsharp G" etc.
I have a supplementary question- like Bach in his Prelude and Fugue in E-flat minor, are there any composers who choose to change the key of their work to make it easier to play? (Bach changed from E-flat minor to D-sharp minor) 202.7.205.66 ( talk) 04:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know, but there certainly are examples of publishers taking it upon themselves to to change the key of a piece, in order to ensure greater sales. The one at the front of my mind is Schubert's Impromptu No. 3 in G flat major, which, without Schubert's knowledge or consent, was transposed into G major for publication. -- JackofOz ( talk) 20:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
ResolvedHi,
I'm trying to trace the name and publisher of a ZX Spectrum computer game that I remember from childhood.
It was developed fairly late in the Spectrums life and basically involved piloting some kind of space craft. The screen was split horizontally with instrumentation along the bottom third of the screen and an outside view for the top two thirds. There may have been ticker messages displayed across the very top of the screen at various points.
I seem to remember the gameplay consisting of three main tasks. The first was piloting a space craft using a first-person view. Secondly you followed a wire-frame set of rectangles that marked a 3D route into orbit around a planet and lastly you began flying at low level over a planetary surface. Both the space and planet sections required you to avoid objects (and enemies maybe?).
The game had two features that I believe were unique at the time. Firstly, in one of the sections, you could see large 3D letters spinning in space. By flying through them you collected the letters and once all had been collected in a given level a word could be made which served as some sort of password or level key. Secondly, the text displayed in messages on screen and used when entering high scores was, very distinctively, a proportional font rather than the Spectrum's standard non-proportional one.
I may be running 2 or more games together into one amalgam memory here...
Any suggestions on what game (or games) I might be remembering would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks everyone.
Badman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.201.28 ( talk) 17:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Could it be Elite (video game)? APL ( talk) 17:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I doesn't sound like elite, but I played elite on a BBC, so the Spectrum version may have been different. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 16:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I remember this one - it was called Starion. See
this
Anonymous Bob (
talk) 12:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- That's the one! Thanks Anonymous Bob. The link gives great info including a reference to another Speccy game, "Dark Star" which is where my faulty memory had plucked the planet-based sections and the wireframe rectangular orbital manouevering from (actually planet warp gates in Dark Star). Two birds killed with one stone! Thanks again Bob.
can 24 inch rims fit on a chrysler 300....and if so what needs to be done to make them fit?
- At the risk of stating the obvious, your Chrysler dealer will know. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 16:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Anything is possible if money is no object. Googlemeister ( talk) 21:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- No, not without modifications, according to this answer: [1]. 23" is the largest, unless you're willing to shave the bolts down on the front arm to provide adequate clearance. StuRat ( talk) 22:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
What time signature is this song set too? Peter Greenwell ( talk) 23:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds like pretty straight-forward 4/4 to me. At a pinch it could be 2/4, but it's certainly not anything more exotic than that.
Grutness...
wha? 05:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, thought with that countrified galloping beat, it'd be something weird like 5/8. Meh, what would I know. Thanks for your help. Peter Greenwell ( talk) 10:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)