This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on August 14, 2018.
YBN Almighty Jay
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Redirect to target that doesn't mention this name. Inclusion in other lists seem based on presumed notability due to this redirect. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 18:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was speedy deleted per
WP:G5 by
Bbb23. --
Tavix(
talk) 14:08, 22 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Subject violates
WP:CRYSTALBALL. Also there has been no El Nino event this year (the current status is actually
neutral). ~ KN2731 {
t ·
c} 16:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per the argument made by the nominator. El Nino for this year is speculation and as it isnt taking place, this should be deleted.
FigfiresSend me a message! 04:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete – Prematurely created; there has been no El Niño event yet.
Master of Time(talk) 08:18, 19 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment from nominator link has been speedy deleted under
WP:G5. ~ KN2731 {
t ·
c} 14:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
Ball (baseball
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ~ Amory(
u •
t •
c) 22:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC)reply
It's missing the closing parenthesis, and I've seen redirects like these get deleted before.
ToThAc (
talk) 12:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete it outta here.
Ball (baseball) already exists and people typing it in wouldn't stop without the closed parenthesis. Those typing on the phone should get the closed parentheses one as an option.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 20:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete more of a strike 3 than a ball.--
76.65.40.44 (
talk) 21:11, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete for reasons stated above. -Sonicwave(
talk) 23:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to
Wikipedia:News. I performed a little
admin magic and moved the revisions pertaining to the list to
Wikipedia:List of newsletters, to which I will link from
Wikipedia:News. Hopefully that encompasses most suggestions brought forth here. --
Tavix(
talk) 17:13, 24 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Dabify per nom, and because adding hatnotes for the other newsletters to
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost would mess up the Signpost's nice design. This is a plausible search term, but there are obviously other targets which could be of use to someone who searches for this (let's not list all the
WikiProject newsletters though, there are dozens). –
Arms & Hearts (
talk) 16:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to
Wikipedia:News, which I wasn't aware existed when I wrote the above. The existing page serves the purpose I had in mind and there's no need to duplicate it. It could be expanded to include more of the content in the draft currently at
Wikipedia:Newsletter, but that's not really a matter for RfD. –
Arms & Hearts (
talk) 20:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep - Only ~10 links exist (hence the weak) but this has pointed to the current target since 2008.
Shortcuts can be and are commonly ambiguous. —
Godsy (
TALKCONT) 03:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Dabify per Arms & Hearts. Many plausible on-wiki newsletters exist, and adding hatnotes would be obviously unhelpful and unsightly. We can easily have the project-wide newsletters, and then a link to the category with the WikiProject specific ones. ----
Patar knight - chat/contributions 06:39, 12 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Disambig per Patar Knight and Arms & Hearts.
Thryduulf (
talk) 08:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to the existing list of newsletters at
Wikipedia:News that is more comprehensive than that drafted below this redirect.
Thryduulf (
talk) 12:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
How about now? The editor whose username is Z0 13:18, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
If a fully comprehensive list of newsletters is desirable in addition to
Wikipedia:News and the category (and I'm not convinced that it is worthwhile), then
Wikipedia:List of newsletters would be a better title.
Thryduulf (
talk) 13:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget per Thryduulf. Good find. Since there's already a good list of newsletters, no need to maintain another one by creating a separate dab page. The Signpost is listed prominently there already.59.149.124.29 (
talk) 13:16, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
My point is that
Wikipedia:News is a better target for most people using
Wikipedia:Newsletter than a simple list of newsletters, no matter how comprehensive, as it includes other relevant news sources and limits the list of newsletters to those which are active.
Thryduulf (
talk) 11:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Should we write a new newsletter index or point readers to
Wikipedia:News?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Deryck C. 11:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to
Education. There is consensus that
Education covers the concept of "Western education" well-enough to warrant a redirect. I'll add {{R with possibilities}} to mark there may be an article to develop here. --
Tavix(
talk) 16:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)reply
clearly not a good target because not all western education is secular
Prisencolin (
talk) 04:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
It defently needs a different target. For example, North America has a large number of
Catholic schools which are clearly not secular. This should be deleted unless a better target is found.--
76.65.40.44 (
talk) 06:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Indeed, this really does need a better target. It has several incoming links from article space, the one at
Zou people says "...many neo-literates among the Zous were convinced about the power of western education and medicine, perceiving these things as synonymous with Christianity itself." which makes the secular education target clearly incorrect. The association with western medicine is present in at least one of the other links too, which gives a hint about what is meant. We have articles
Traditional education and
Classical education but I don't think they are quite right. I'll leave a note at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education about this discussion.
Thryduulf (
talk) 11:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to
Education, a comprehensive article, the great majority of which covers modern, "Western", education. Failing that, retarget to
school, the defining institution of Western education.
Johnbod (
talk) 12:42, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Two articles- I haven't got my reference books with me here in
Congénies but if we are going to make a change, lets get it right.
Western Education stems from the Greek tradition of
Socrates, and the
Roman interpretation of the need for the elite to recieve an education in the Greek manner and the plebs to recieve a training. The Western as distinct from the orthodox tradition was different, and we never mentioned the Eastern cultures of China, and South Asia on our BEd philosopy of Education course. There really is enough material to work up an FA on this.
Secular education is equally fascinating to the right sort of person. In Europe the Kings had subcontracted education of boys to the church, and with naissance of secularism there was an awareness that something was wrong. Your couldn't get tenure at UK university with out entering Holy Orders. The whole curriculum of the English public school rested on divinity, and latin and greek (a left over) so, we now enter the debate for the control of the curriculum. Material for an article there! Now we have the hidden subsidy of the church by the state through village schools. The 1944 Act was the historic compromise where religion was imposed on every school in country in return for the church handing over its assets (village church primary schools in dire physical conditions where no other school existed) and a generous financial package. Secular schools took a giant stem back! I believe that the church still holds on to all major public schools. That said it was possible to spend 4 years at a C of E College and never step foot in their chapel. We still have funding differences in austerity Nottingham between the non-church schools and the church schools. I was reminded last night about the perils of insisting your 8yr goes to a 'secular' school in protestent NI
NSS. Finland is secular
MATTI KOTIRANTA Religion and the Secular State in Finland but
Merenmies_MastersThesis_Final show illegal permeation of religion and breaches of human rights law. I have not discussed the separation of church and state in post Sarkosy France- but I can do. Without my books, I think, given attention, we have enough notability and material to do a second article.
ClemRutter (
talk) 16:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment judging from the incoming links and comments, there are multiple distinct concepts which editors of other articles are trying to reach when they invoke the phrase "Western education":
The topic referred to by the links from
Zou people and
Lu Xun: English- or French-medium education in schools run by European expatriates or schools in the
metropole, in contrast to the local traditional style of education based on systems which pre-dated contact with Europe (e.g. education for the
Confucian court examination system in Vietnam).
Colonial education, more or less (oh well, that's red). This would not necessarily be liberal arts education, but quite possibly limited to vocational training in bookkeeping, business correspondence, and such to meet the needs of the colonial government and business
The topic referred to by the links from
Education in Ethiopia and
Primer with Various Instructions, which appears to me to be something like the creation of an educational system by the government, with standardisation of language, teaching practices, etc.
State school and
compulsory education and some other articles capture bits and pieces of that concept.
I think we'd be better off writing some sort of index or disambiguation page here, not the least to prevent it from getting occupied by an article exclusively referring to one of the above concepts to the exclusion of the others.
59.149.124.29 (
talk) 17:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to
Education It's not secular as Eastern education can also be secular. We don't even have an
Eastern education redirect. There are topics that suggest Western educational model might be a suitable article, as mentioned in
Indigenous education and other articles. But Education would be a good general redirect.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 21:09, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose retarget to
Education as promoting systematic bias. Saying that "Western education" is the same as "Education" is promoting it as the normal and marginalising all other forms as lesser. I'm leaning towards 59.149's set index idea as the best suggested yet, but I'm not sure what form it would take.
Thryduulf (
talk) 14:26, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
If it goes to Education, then Eastern education redirect should be created as well just to neutralize the bias.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 16:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
That wouldn't actually solve the problem I identified, it would just make a second parallel problem.
Thryduulf (
talk) 18:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget per Johnbod and AngusWOOF. I don't agree with the systemic bias argument: we redirect narrower or more specific terms to broader or more general articles all the time, and to do so is not to suggest an equivalence between the redirect and the target, much less to suggest that the redirect predominates over other topics mentioned in the target. If
Education were a redirect to
Western education that would of course be implicitly saying that western education is the only form of education, or the only worthwhile form, and I've !voted to delete plenty of redirects on those grounds (usually general terms pointing to U.S.-specific articles). But this is a different situation; indeed, in a sense it's the complete opposite. I also don't think that a disambiguation page would be useful here – there are simply not enough articles we could list while adhering to
WP:DABENTRY – and
set indexes are, as I understand the guideline, only for topics that share a name. –
Arms & Hearts (
talk) 18:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on August 14, 2018.
YBN Almighty Jay
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Redirect to target that doesn't mention this name. Inclusion in other lists seem based on presumed notability due to this redirect. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 18:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was speedy deleted per
WP:G5 by
Bbb23. --
Tavix(
talk) 14:08, 22 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Subject violates
WP:CRYSTALBALL. Also there has been no El Nino event this year (the current status is actually
neutral). ~ KN2731 {
t ·
c} 16:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per the argument made by the nominator. El Nino for this year is speculation and as it isnt taking place, this should be deleted.
FigfiresSend me a message! 04:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete – Prematurely created; there has been no El Niño event yet.
Master of Time(talk) 08:18, 19 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment from nominator link has been speedy deleted under
WP:G5. ~ KN2731 {
t ·
c} 14:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
Ball (baseball
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ~ Amory(
u •
t •
c) 22:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC)reply
It's missing the closing parenthesis, and I've seen redirects like these get deleted before.
ToThAc (
talk) 12:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete it outta here.
Ball (baseball) already exists and people typing it in wouldn't stop without the closed parenthesis. Those typing on the phone should get the closed parentheses one as an option.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 20:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete more of a strike 3 than a ball.--
76.65.40.44 (
talk) 21:11, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete for reasons stated above. -Sonicwave(
talk) 23:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to
Wikipedia:News. I performed a little
admin magic and moved the revisions pertaining to the list to
Wikipedia:List of newsletters, to which I will link from
Wikipedia:News. Hopefully that encompasses most suggestions brought forth here. --
Tavix(
talk) 17:13, 24 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Dabify per nom, and because adding hatnotes for the other newsletters to
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost would mess up the Signpost's nice design. This is a plausible search term, but there are obviously other targets which could be of use to someone who searches for this (let's not list all the
WikiProject newsletters though, there are dozens). –
Arms & Hearts (
talk) 16:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to
Wikipedia:News, which I wasn't aware existed when I wrote the above. The existing page serves the purpose I had in mind and there's no need to duplicate it. It could be expanded to include more of the content in the draft currently at
Wikipedia:Newsletter, but that's not really a matter for RfD. –
Arms & Hearts (
talk) 20:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep - Only ~10 links exist (hence the weak) but this has pointed to the current target since 2008.
Shortcuts can be and are commonly ambiguous. —
Godsy (
TALKCONT) 03:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Dabify per Arms & Hearts. Many plausible on-wiki newsletters exist, and adding hatnotes would be obviously unhelpful and unsightly. We can easily have the project-wide newsletters, and then a link to the category with the WikiProject specific ones. ----
Patar knight - chat/contributions 06:39, 12 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Disambig per Patar Knight and Arms & Hearts.
Thryduulf (
talk) 08:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to the existing list of newsletters at
Wikipedia:News that is more comprehensive than that drafted below this redirect.
Thryduulf (
talk) 12:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
How about now? The editor whose username is Z0 13:18, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
If a fully comprehensive list of newsletters is desirable in addition to
Wikipedia:News and the category (and I'm not convinced that it is worthwhile), then
Wikipedia:List of newsletters would be a better title.
Thryduulf (
talk) 13:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget per Thryduulf. Good find. Since there's already a good list of newsletters, no need to maintain another one by creating a separate dab page. The Signpost is listed prominently there already.59.149.124.29 (
talk) 13:16, 13 August 2018 (UTC)reply
My point is that
Wikipedia:News is a better target for most people using
Wikipedia:Newsletter than a simple list of newsletters, no matter how comprehensive, as it includes other relevant news sources and limits the list of newsletters to those which are active.
Thryduulf (
talk) 11:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Should we write a new newsletter index or point readers to
Wikipedia:News?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Deryck C. 11:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was retarget to
Education. There is consensus that
Education covers the concept of "Western education" well-enough to warrant a redirect. I'll add {{R with possibilities}} to mark there may be an article to develop here. --
Tavix(
talk) 16:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)reply
clearly not a good target because not all western education is secular
Prisencolin (
talk) 04:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
It defently needs a different target. For example, North America has a large number of
Catholic schools which are clearly not secular. This should be deleted unless a better target is found.--
76.65.40.44 (
talk) 06:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Indeed, this really does need a better target. It has several incoming links from article space, the one at
Zou people says "...many neo-literates among the Zous were convinced about the power of western education and medicine, perceiving these things as synonymous with Christianity itself." which makes the secular education target clearly incorrect. The association with western medicine is present in at least one of the other links too, which gives a hint about what is meant. We have articles
Traditional education and
Classical education but I don't think they are quite right. I'll leave a note at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education about this discussion.
Thryduulf (
talk) 11:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to
Education, a comprehensive article, the great majority of which covers modern, "Western", education. Failing that, retarget to
school, the defining institution of Western education.
Johnbod (
talk) 12:42, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Two articles- I haven't got my reference books with me here in
Congénies but if we are going to make a change, lets get it right.
Western Education stems from the Greek tradition of
Socrates, and the
Roman interpretation of the need for the elite to recieve an education in the Greek manner and the plebs to recieve a training. The Western as distinct from the orthodox tradition was different, and we never mentioned the Eastern cultures of China, and South Asia on our BEd philosopy of Education course. There really is enough material to work up an FA on this.
Secular education is equally fascinating to the right sort of person. In Europe the Kings had subcontracted education of boys to the church, and with naissance of secularism there was an awareness that something was wrong. Your couldn't get tenure at UK university with out entering Holy Orders. The whole curriculum of the English public school rested on divinity, and latin and greek (a left over) so, we now enter the debate for the control of the curriculum. Material for an article there! Now we have the hidden subsidy of the church by the state through village schools. The 1944 Act was the historic compromise where religion was imposed on every school in country in return for the church handing over its assets (village church primary schools in dire physical conditions where no other school existed) and a generous financial package. Secular schools took a giant stem back! I believe that the church still holds on to all major public schools. That said it was possible to spend 4 years at a C of E College and never step foot in their chapel. We still have funding differences in austerity Nottingham between the non-church schools and the church schools. I was reminded last night about the perils of insisting your 8yr goes to a 'secular' school in protestent NI
NSS. Finland is secular
MATTI KOTIRANTA Religion and the Secular State in Finland but
Merenmies_MastersThesis_Final show illegal permeation of religion and breaches of human rights law. I have not discussed the separation of church and state in post Sarkosy France- but I can do. Without my books, I think, given attention, we have enough notability and material to do a second article.
ClemRutter (
talk) 16:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment judging from the incoming links and comments, there are multiple distinct concepts which editors of other articles are trying to reach when they invoke the phrase "Western education":
The topic referred to by the links from
Zou people and
Lu Xun: English- or French-medium education in schools run by European expatriates or schools in the
metropole, in contrast to the local traditional style of education based on systems which pre-dated contact with Europe (e.g. education for the
Confucian court examination system in Vietnam).
Colonial education, more or less (oh well, that's red). This would not necessarily be liberal arts education, but quite possibly limited to vocational training in bookkeeping, business correspondence, and such to meet the needs of the colonial government and business
The topic referred to by the links from
Education in Ethiopia and
Primer with Various Instructions, which appears to me to be something like the creation of an educational system by the government, with standardisation of language, teaching practices, etc.
State school and
compulsory education and some other articles capture bits and pieces of that concept.
I think we'd be better off writing some sort of index or disambiguation page here, not the least to prevent it from getting occupied by an article exclusively referring to one of the above concepts to the exclusion of the others.
59.149.124.29 (
talk) 17:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget to
Education It's not secular as Eastern education can also be secular. We don't even have an
Eastern education redirect. There are topics that suggest Western educational model might be a suitable article, as mentioned in
Indigenous education and other articles. But Education would be a good general redirect.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 21:09, 14 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose retarget to
Education as promoting systematic bias. Saying that "Western education" is the same as "Education" is promoting it as the normal and marginalising all other forms as lesser. I'm leaning towards 59.149's set index idea as the best suggested yet, but I'm not sure what form it would take.
Thryduulf (
talk) 14:26, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
If it goes to Education, then Eastern education redirect should be created as well just to neutralize the bias.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 16:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
That wouldn't actually solve the problem I identified, it would just make a second parallel problem.
Thryduulf (
talk) 18:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Retarget per Johnbod and AngusWOOF. I don't agree with the systemic bias argument: we redirect narrower or more specific terms to broader or more general articles all the time, and to do so is not to suggest an equivalence between the redirect and the target, much less to suggest that the redirect predominates over other topics mentioned in the target. If
Education were a redirect to
Western education that would of course be implicitly saying that western education is the only form of education, or the only worthwhile form, and I've !voted to delete plenty of redirects on those grounds (usually general terms pointing to U.S.-specific articles). But this is a different situation; indeed, in a sense it's the complete opposite. I also don't think that a disambiguation page would be useful here – there are simply not enough articles we could list while adhering to
WP:DABENTRY – and
set indexes are, as I understand the guideline, only for topics that share a name. –
Arms & Hearts (
talk) 18:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.