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See also: Wikipedia:Policy on private photos of identifiable models
User:Publicgirluk has uploaded a number of sexually-explicit pictures of (supposedly) herself, mostly used in relevant articles. Wikipedia isn't censored, and the user seems well-intentioned, but there's something wrong about having a significant fraction of sexually-explicit images be of a single identifiable person... On User talk:Publicgirluk there is a long string of "fan mail" requesting more images emailed, and that is definitely not what Wikipedia is for. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-08-23 22:17Z
Is there any way that we can be sure that this user is really the person in these photographs? I could forsee some potential legal difficulty for wikipedia if this person isn't who we think it is. Is this a non-issue or does anyone see what I am talking about?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
We don't have any mechanisms in place to verify image copyright ... or, for that matter, image authenticity. Generally, we trust that users will place correct copyright tags on images they upload, unless and until someone claims otherwise.
Consider: We do not enforce WP:NOR with regards to images. If someone uploads an image of a fuzzy camelid and says that it is a llama, we assume that it really is a llama and not an alpaca or a guanaco, unless we have specific evidence to the contrary.
This editor claims that these pictures are of herself, and that she is the copyright holder. We have no evidence to the contrary. By our normal practice, we would let the images stand unless and until someone claims otherwise. -- FOo 04:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The images of her that that I saw that she has provided as GFDL are not pornographic according to US law. Nudity is not pornographic legally speaking in America. An image of a sex reassignment operation or a foreskin removal on a one year old in spite of violence, gore, bondage, and being underage is not porno legally speaking unless you are selling it with lurid descriptions (and why how you are selling it should make a difference you'll have to take up with legal professionals - I find that entirely weird). WAS 4.250 05:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
In order for us to assume that these images are legitimately released under the GFDL by their author, we have to believe that an attractive young woman created a Wikipedia account, saw the opportunity to improve some sexual fetish related articles, and decided to upload private, professional-looking photographs of herself, including photographs of her nude and covered in semen. This, from a user who previously uploaded a copyrighted image of a British porn model ( see bottom). Personally, I find the story a little hard to believe and think that we should request that Publicgirluk substantiate that this is her in the photos, or we should remove them before the real copyright owner complains. Of course, we could take the wait and see approach, but it seems like when it comes to placing 50x50 pixel images of cartoon characters on user pages the approach has always been to be proactive in avoiding copyright infringement, and I like to be consistent. — GT 09:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the problem. (1) Her edits are good. (2) If she has a porn site, she's hiding it pretty well, so I don't see an advertising problem. (3) Her images aren't any worse than a bunch we've seen. I suppose she could post an image of herself holding up a copyleft license if there is serious doubt as to her identity.
Has anyone notified her about this complaint? TheronJ 14:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Charlesknight 14:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a rational response and not really how it would actually happen - most of those institutions (and I worked for an LEA) basically want a hassle free existance. It's not really the actuality of wrongdoing that concerns them, rather the percetion for wrongdoing. If I want into a local library and said my son was surfing wikipedia and found pornography images and what are they going to do about it? well they will just add it to their block fliter no questions asked, they don't want the hassle.
I also used to run the school networks in a number of places (when I was a teacher) and on the basis of what I've just seen, I'd stick Wikipedia straight on the fliter list - because that is far less hassle than explaining to a parent how I've failed (in their perception) in my duty of care to their child. Why would I want the headache? far easier just to take the path of less resistance.
Look how standard page protections are misrepresented in the media - you honestly think a bored journo on a slow newsday couldn't spin this into "a number of degrading images too disgusting to describe in a family newspaper".
Indeed, Because i've been out of touch with this area for a couple of years, I've just phoned a friend who is a headmaster of a comp and after talking for ten minutes, he plans to block it from his network. to me at least that says it all. -- Charlesknight 15:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
You know what might help, some proof that this Publicgirluk is actually the one in the pictures. I belief the standard way of doing this online is to get an identifiable picture of the person holding up a hand-written sign saying something like "I am Publicgirluk on Wikipedia". Publicgirluk, think you can handle that? Shouldn't be too hard. -- Cyde Weys 16:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
But that is the opposite of WP:Assume good faith. It is an acceptable request I suppose, but should not be required. (just one guys opinion) HighInBC 17:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
After having Tyrenius inform me on my talk page I have just finished reading this. I am suprised at the sheer volume of comment, half of which I found insulting and half of which is just laughable. Despite contributing to the project in good faith I appear to be being accused of lying, self promotion, illegal activity, sexual deviance and to cap it all getting Wikipedia banned in the content filters across the world. I don't see anywhere in the FAQ that says Wikipedia is a club, that it requires membership, nor that I have to prove or identify myself. Those asking for me to prove myself to them can start by posting of photo of themselves to show that they are not perverts and why they are entitled to ask for identity. To put the record straight on a number of items 1) I haven't posted a larger numbers of sexually explicit photo's. While accepting that everyone's difinition will vary, I think only 2 could be argued to be in this catagory. I think both of which add to their respective articles, both of which have caused some debate on the article discussion and both articles appear to have reached a consenses. I haven't changed any subsquent edit of mine as I happy with the principles of wikipedia. If you have something to say or don't like my edits then feel free to discuss or amend them on the appropraite page. 2) I am over 18 3) I can't see how my edits are self promotion but for the record I am not interested in self promotion. 4) I don't see the revelance of whether the images are professional or not. For the record they were taken in my bedsit with a proper i.e expensive camera, a canon something or other. 5) I don't have a porn site. I am not a porn star, I am a student. I am comfortable with my sexuality and sexual preferences and I am not ashamed by them. 6) I created one new page which I thought (and still do) added to wikipedia scope of articles and used what I thought was a fair use image. Others disagreed and deleted the article which I am happy to allow.
I am not going to enter further debate I don't have to answer to anyone or prove myself either. If you don't like my contributions then please delete them and my user ID. I have plenty of things to fill my life with. Publicgirluk 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Take the image from the upper right from here, crop at the neck, add a caption about "cum" and you have an example of the image you refer to further nudity on the part of the child would not make it illegal. Pics of nudity are not illegal. Pics of real or fake cum are not ilegal. WAS 4.250 00:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the big concern is that she refused to verify she's actually what she says. Which could have been done easily as cyde pointed: take a picture with a paper saying "yes I'm publicgirluk at wikipedia" (which could be removed afterwards if needed). She specifically stated
I am not going to enter further debate I don't have to answer to anyone or prove myself either. If you don't like my contributions then please delete them and my user ID. I have plenty of things to fill my life with. Publicgirluk 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Since she is refusing to help verifying the source of the images, I will go ahead and delete them. -- Drini 22:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Ref my IRC conversation with you, please do not delete these images. They are legal and correctly uploaded and released, and to ask publicgirluk to do things that other uploaders are not required to do is unacceptable to my mind. --
AlisonW 23:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The most important issue relating to these particular photos is whether they are uploaded by the subject. I don't think anyone is disputing that now (if they are, then they need to say so, and why). In this case, there's nothing for admins to do, but there does seem to be a need for various policy issues to be discussed elsewhere. Tyrenius 22:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
There are several issues that keep getting re-aired, here. 1) Copyright. Wikipedia is somewhat indemnified when the uploader swears that the image is her own, provided that we show due dilligence. Given the professional quality of the images, several people have believed that due dillegence requires more than just, "Oh, sure, screen name, we accept your legal affadavit!" 2) Biting. I've known prostitutes and strippers in the past, but I don't think I've known any female exhibitionists. It would have been unimaginable for either of the first two categories in my experience to have uploaded pornographic images of themselves without a remunerative motive. However, they would not have feigned blushing delicacy if the images provoked an outcry in either case, so all of these Gallahads coming to rescue the damsel in distress are hilarious. If the uploader is the model, then she had better expect some reaction. It's hard to bite when it's bait. 3) "Censorship." Wikipedia is not censored for minors, but it is also not home to any image uploaded by any contributor. It is not "censorship" to reject an image -- saying otherwise is the argument of trolls and edit warriors, consistently. Do we need to illustrate "pearl necklace?" What do we gain by it? Is the article ambiguous without the illustration? What do we lose by it? Any intelligent consideration would reject the illustration even aside from copyright issues. 4) Hoaxing. Some of us think that we are either being hoaxed or that the defenders of the distressed damsel are setting us up for hoaxing and entrapment. If you want to see similar images, go elsewhere or get a significant other, but let the normal review process and evaluation get underway. My own feeling is that this is a reincarnated troll, but I don't think even that much investigation is necessary for rejecting the images. Geogre 17:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a comment here - this saga is long and detailed and this may have been discussed previously, but what is the perceptible difference between this situation (a person uploading sexual imagery they claim to be a photo of themselves) and, say, a man (or woman) posting lurid, private photographs of an ex-wife or girlfriend, perhaps for revenge? I'm still not sure whether the poster has been positively identified as the model, or whether the photos are in fact private, and whether they have been uploaded with permission of the model. It seems to me that in the absence of certainty regarding the identity and copyright status of the photos they should be deleted - to say nothing of my personal feelings regarding the questionable encyclopedic value of such photographs in the first place. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Nandesuka raises a disturbing issue, that high-quality photographs undergo greater scrutiny than low-quality ones. Should we really be discouraging high-quality photo contributions in favor of low-quality ones? Powers T 20:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Apparently User:Goldom has deleted User:Publicgirluk. [ [1]] Dionyseus 21:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Goldom has deleted the userpage as it was being vandalised - the note says "to protect the real user". So it's not like Publicgirluk has been blocked or anything. Meanwhile, I have indefinitely blocked an anonymous account that had only two posts: one vandalising Publicgirl's userpage with the sexually explicit photos under discussion; the other soliciting contact from another female user. I have no particular opinion about the photos themselves. Metamagician3000 01:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points:
OK. Instead of letting this run on and on and on, and getting no where, can we take this to office, and get a diffinate answer on this subject. Yes, there are legal questions that need to be answered, that much is obvious, so it would probably be best for all concerned, including Publicgirl, if office looked at this, and told us what to do from a legal standpoint. Th ε Halo Θ 23:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. The Wikimedia Foundation is a common carrier in the meaning of US telecommunciation law. The foundation has no liability whatsoever for the actions of the contributors to Wikipedia, provided it addresses any complaints promptly. In the absence of specific evidence that there is a problem here (and not just speculations about image quality), there is no compelling legal reason to delete the photos. Assuming good faith is exactly what the law envisions that online forums will do. If there is some malfeasance here, then it might be bad for public relations, but I can't see any reason (copyright or otherwise) to believe that these images pose a legal liability to any here other than the uploader. Dragons flight 23:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflicts)
This conversation does not seem to be getting anywhere, apart from raising points for further discussion. It also covers a number of different areas which doesn't help for clarification. Legal matters and editing decisions in general are intermingled with aspects of this case in particular, although there is obviously a relationship between them.
Certain things are wider in scope and need to be taken elsewhere to debate fully:
Certain things need to be decided now about these particular photos:
As this is an admin noticeboard, not a policy making one, it would be helpful to concentrate on what might need action to be taken, i.e. the last three options.
I find there are some extremely unsatisfactory observations that have been made about these particular images and false conclusions therefore arrived at. I have an extensive experience of working professionally with photography, and these are definitely not what would normally be described as "professional photos", which does not mean they are without merit, appeal or inventiveness. They bear all the hallmarks of being taken by an amateur with a bit more imagination and aesthetic sense than average: that is all. Comments as to the quality of the lighting fall far short of the mark. There is either daylight or improvised lighting, but not professional lighting. I can't see any indication of the use of image processing software, and, if there has been, it has not done any of the things that would normally be done with it. There is just normal degradation of definition from file compression for web use. If anyone pronounces on the technical quality of the images, I would be grateful if they would state their qualifications for doing so.
Judgements alluding to the motivation of someone who would wish to pose for such photos are hopelessly cliched and old-fashioned. It does not surprise me at all from observations of many people I know that someone would wish to do this, nor to post them on the internet, although it is not usual on wikipedia. As Publicgirluk says, she feels comfortable with her sexuality.
There is no evidence to support the notion that the intention of the user is for commercial gain. There is no evidence of solicitation — the reverse if anything. Furthermore, there is very little point using wikipedia for that purpose, when it would be very easy to make money elsewhere with sexual images, if that was what Publicgirluk wanted to do. She was asked if she had a web site, which anyone with a commercial interest certainly would do, and would take the opportunity to promote it. She said she did not have a web site, and did not offer the address of one.
Let us just for the sake of argument assume that everything Publicgirluk has said is true and everything she has done is without dubious motivation. I do not see anything that contravenes that interpretation. If the user is genuine — and I think at the moment we have to act on this basis — then this discussion contains things that should not have been said, and I hope will not be in future.
As far as copyright is concerned, and barring any contractual agreement to the contrary, it remains with the photographer, unless they were taken by her with a timer or some other method. She has indicated they were taken by her boyfriend. If there were a verbal agreement, it would be one person's word against the others, and she has obviously given her consent to the photographer for them to be taken, so her case would be weakened. There does not appear to be any dispute between them over the use of the work, however, but it may be a legal nicety that needs to be addressed, if not in this, then in other cases.
Tyrenius 23:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
And the attacks made on her strike me as excessive. The uploader is a new user. The uploader was not told about this debate until it had reached an unacceptable point. You say she's testing policy. From her words, she seemed to think it was policy and was surprised there was anything to test. After all, her talk page had been getting a lot of compliments, so what was there to tell her other than she was doing the right thing. Nobody broached these matters with her directly. I think the whole way this has been handled is quite unacceptable. The first thing is to WP:AGF before you start laying into someone. After all, if you see a page of erect penises, why on earth should you think that anyone would object to bare breasts and the natural conclusion to an erect penis? Is there something that I'm getting wrong thinking there are some rather ambivalent, not to mention double, standards at work here. She wasn't even showing genitalia. Some porn! Tyrenius 01:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC
As Ryan said, above, it's really remarkable that the defense is so vigorous here. We have dashing Gallahads coming to the rescue of, if everything is true, a woman who has 1) engaged in pornographic photography and 2) uploaded pictures of herself with no thought of repayment, and such a person is not very likely to be shocked by having folks react. If she is, then she must live in a very, very different world than any I've visited. More to the point, what is damning here is that this defense is asking everyone to ask no more questions, to just be quiet, allow the photos up, to have no suspicions, and to begin even protecting the images. That's absurd, and it's bad practice. It's the duty of all of us to use our common sense and to keep our BS detectors running on full, especially with new users who show up and immediately know their way around. It's simple: self-made pornography among young women is rare enough that people are suspicious. That's a good thing. It's a very good thing. To suggest that it isn't because of "AGF" is absurd. Geogre 02:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The images showing sexuality and nudity should be deleted (or stored on someone's hard drive until cropped so no indvidual is identifiable). This is because we have not established for certain that the model has given permission. Legally and technically it is probably the photographer who owns the copyright and she has given her consent for the photographs, so she will have little recourse, at least under UK law, especially as it is not being used for any commercial gain.
However, I don't think we would want to upload such images, even if legally in the clear, if the subject was unwilling. This is for two reasons. 1) Sensitivity to the subject 2) Protection of the Foundation and the negative publicity which would result in a vengeful ex-partner (for example) uploading intimate photos.
If verification can be established, possibly through OFFICE, as is done with other copyright permissions, then there is no reason, at the moment to delete them.
The above takes into consideration Jimbo Wales' clear instructions for sensitivity to living people, particularly after the Siegenthaler case for one.
It has been suggested that OFFICE should be contacted, but my own experience of doing this recently showed me that they much preferred for responsible action to be taken by users. Those closer to OFFICE than myself may like to comment on this.
Tyrenius 02:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
ALERT - At least one image has been deleted - quote :-
"00:11, 28 August 2006 Voice of All (Talk | contribs) deleted "Image:Facial.png" (Deleted mass bad faith or copyright violating image uploads by a single user.) "
Preempting much? exolon 01:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Not at all, that's pretty much routine when we don't know the copyright status of an image. It's not irreversible ... deleted images are now recoverable. -- Cyde Weys 01:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
To avoid such debacles in the future, I suggest we agree to a working guideline, until the matter can be thrashed out properly. This is that we do not allow certain images, unless there is verification that the uploader is who they claim they are. This verification can be done in any suitable way. The user can then be informed with normal wiki courtesy from the outset. Images in this category would be anything that identifies a specific individual where there is nudity or sexuality, or anything else that that individual might find compromising in any reasonable estimate. Tyrenius 02:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
A particular procedure is going to be impossible, here. In essence what I've argued all along is that common sense has to prevail. The more compromising a photo of an identifiable person is, the more necessary permission would be. If, for example, there were a close up photo of a vulva, and we have several, or even of penetration, which is the big no-no in most of the English speaking nations of Wikipedia .en, that might be less a matter of concern than a topless photo showing a woman's face. The latter is identifiable: a person's face and torso are visible, and therefore she (or he, I suppose) could be personally damaged by the display to a greater degree than a single body part's owner would be. At the same time, the more legally challenging a photo (penetration and "perverse" sexual practices illustrated (and these are by community standards, not by editorial ones)), the more certain we would need to be, but these are sliding scales. Finally, the more edits of a non-controversial nature, the more likely the uploads are legitimate, but it's never certain. Each of these factor in. A very, very well established user who uploads a full body, identifiable, photo of a woman engaging in coprophagia should still have to meet the highest standards of proof, while a new user uploading a photo of a rooster (rather than a cock) might need none but an avowal. In other words, suspicion is based on the nature of the upload and the degree of history, but it should always be present when an identifying photo is uploaded. (Another important example would be any identifying photo of any child in any state of garb.) Geogre 10:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
In an attempt to kickstart this lengthy debate into people actually doing something about our lack of a suitable policy have created Wikipedia:Policy on private photos of identifyable models. Please just go and edit that page with what you feel is needed. Also feel free to change the name if you can think of a better one. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 10:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, or has this been blown way out of proportion? What the hell makes this so different to the hundreds of other nude photos available on Wikipedia? This is certainly not a new thing, not out of the ordinary, and none of the arguments convince me that any special treatment is required. Perhaps we should have a policy WP:SCARE (Don't scare the newbies). This would certainly fall under that category — I'm pretty sure publicgirluk is sick of the discussion about her, which she was barely even informed about. We say "Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors", now let's bloody well act like it isn't! — Werdna talk criticism 11:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: I forgot to mention, the stalkers aren't any bigger issue than those ridiculous trolls who hit on Phaedriel. If somebody's behaving inappropriately towards somebody who's contributed these photos, then I think the arbitration committee or administrators are well within their rights, and in fact, I believe it is their duty to intervene. Treating Publicgirluk in that manner borders on is disruptive harrassment, which should be a blockable offence. These people are clearly not here to write an encyclopedia, and certainly do not have the attitude towards women that is expected at this project. —
Werdna
talk
criticism 11:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Werdna & others, it's rather disrespectful to come in at the tail end of a discussion and declare that we've all been wasting our time when you don't even appear to recognize the core issue at hand. Hint: nobody here thinks these photos should be deleted on account of being too risqué. You asked, "What the hell makes this so different to the hundreds of other nude photos available on Wikipedia?" The answer is that these were uploaded by a new user and were of a nature that caused many of us to doubt that the user was the model who was depicted in the photos. — GT 14:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, in my humble opinion:
Much has been said in the discussion that I imply my own guilt by not contributing to what is now a lengthy discussion. For a number of admins, the reason for not contributing is going to come as a shock. Not everyone in the world, in fact the majority of people in the world don't have a holiday in the 4th July. Here in the UK, where I am (the clue is in the user name) we have something called a Summer Bank Holiday which was this weekend. As I now come to understand, Wikipedia is a little light on the subject. However, it is a tradional weekend when a significant proportion (typically around 10 to 15%) of the population of the UK disappear on long weekend break normally their last before Winter (citation here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5283820.stm?ls). As you want me to comment I shall. On some of the specifics of the attacks on me
1) I am amazed on what the experts can deduce from a low resolution, highly compressed JPG file. Or rather I am not. They were taken in my room at universtiy by my BF. There is no studio lighting, props or other professional tools. They were cropped in paintshop pro by me prior to uploaded. I thought that was good manners as I assumed you didn't want to see a shot of my sofa and wall.
2) I am not a sock puppet but I am 22 (It is nice to know I look 5 years younger)
3) My BF and I make a lot of use of Wikipedia in our studies and wanted to contribute to the project. We have two great pastimes - our sexuality and english heritage. Sorry if that is a bit wacky and not like the people you know but that is the way it is. We have made a number of small edits on topics which we felt we could add value. By the way I can recommend the Concorde trip at Filton and no I wasn't the only girl on the tour.
4) I personally find it odd that certain admins feel there is difference between a picture of me with semen and a girl tied up, wearing a ball gag and suspended simply because they are dressed. I also fail to see how using one of pictures to illustrate a "cameltoe" is not sexual either but it takes all sorts
5) Just because comments are made in the third party and sprinked with weasel words. It doesn't prevent the comment from being personal or insulting.
6) Again, it is going to come as a shock, but no I didn't think the contributions would cause this debate. Wikipedia as far as we could tell, has lots of sexually explicit photos, has a boldly presented WP:AGF policy and doesn't detail any form of approval / moderator process. Most of our edits have past without comment. One photo was deleted as it didn't match the topic - something I disagreed with but happy with the consensus. One other had a lively debate which quickly reached consensus and everybody moved on. After a significant period of time I am alerted to pages of debate somewhere else in Wikepedia where I appear to have been hauled before the great and the good of Wikipedia admins. My own POV is that every article should have an image - an image describes a thousand words. Wikipedia can do this, and it sets it apart from printed rivals because it can. If an article is not worthy of an image then the article is not worthy of inclusion. In hindsight there is a difference which is that the other pictures are uploaded by males and are not self-pics. I can't help wondering if the BF uploaded them under a male ID whether anyone would raise an eyebrow for being outside the norm.
On some of the wider issues raised 7) Wikipedia does need a policy on whether living persons have to prove ownwership of pictures if it is to move forward with a consistent and fairly applied approach to articles or images they may offend in certain cultures. Alternatively it can stay as it is and bite when a picture offends the POV or offends the sensibilities of some of the admins for "not being normal behaviour"
8) I can understand the legal arguments but they apply to many pictures. More importantly, wikipedia is hosted on servers in several countries whose own laws, different to that in the US, apply. This implies that wikipedia would have to operate at the lowest common dominator yet no discussions has taken place on what this is, again a reoccuring theme of US law and US attidue dominate.
9) The number of edits is not a measure of worth. From what I can see most edits on wikipedia consis of formating and correcting typographical errors. I do not have the time to do this and have limited myself to edits which I believe add to the information content of the article.
When I joined wikipedia I did so with a view of what it was, two important elements were it was international in nature and that everyone was equal and had a valid POV. The debates have shown me that this is not the case, that wikipedia is in fact dominated by US editors and contributors who despite their well meaning and obvious loyalty to the project continue to display stereotypical behaviour showing a lack of understanding of anything outside their own borders and judge the world by their own values and beliefs.
Which leaves me on having to decide the way forward. I appear to have two choices; withdraw - delete my images, contributions and ID while undoubtedly hearing a chorus of "no smoke without fire" behind me; or post a photo of me is some kind of verifiable pose to satisfy those who can not believe that a girl is comfortable telling people that she likes a man to ejaculate on her face.
Wikipedia is not what I thought it was, while there appear to be genuine understanding people here, there are others who I do not want to be associated with. I posted under WP:AGF and if that isn't sufficient then I am not going to perform like a circus lion for the benefit of a small few. I said in a previous post that I am comfortable with my sexuality, I am not ashamed but proud and I have no problem listening to the "I told you so"'s. I would be grateful if an admin could delete my contributions/images as I no longer give permission for their use. Publicgirluk 19:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations to all the small minded, petty, prudish, and plain mean-spirited editors/admins who questioned, insulted and attacked this contributor for daring to actually attempt to contribute to wikipedia. You must all be very happy now. Well you haven't just lost one contributor, I quit too. I don't want to be part of a project that thinks treating people like this is acceptable. exolon 00:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
OK well that's your choice, but bear in mind the concern of many admins was that the girl in the photo really was the girl who uploaded the pics and that she really was happy about having such pictures uploaded. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Good. I'm not sure I want people like that editing Wikipedia. Eilicea 14:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted an invitation to Publicgirluk for returning to Wikipedia on User talk:Publicgirluk. -- Tyrenius 01:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Are we having a policy debate on the issue of uploading photos somewhere else? If not - I guess the following goes here. Further to my earlier points, I've been enquiring further about the guidance that the DFES (the UK Department of education) provides to schools and it appears that Wikipedia is not suitable for use in UK schools (because of the presence of "pornographic" images). I am trying to get clarification about which particular part of the guidance covers this and will post it, once I get it.
-- Charlesknight 08:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
We are having a debate here Wikipedia:Policy on private photos of identifyable models. At the moment I am not aware of any UK schools prevented access to Wikipedia. Certainly the schools that I've worked in all allow access (for the moment). This is an adult encylopedia though. Schools should do what they feel best but I don't think we should take that into account whatsoever. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 01:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"It is unfortunate that there was any debate at all here. This was pretty clearly a case of trolling. I would recommend a checkuser on various parties involved to see who else we ought to block in this nonsense. People are really missing the point if they think we should allow this kind of nonsense to go on. This is an encyclopedia, not a free speech zone for trolls.-- Jimbo Wales 16:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)"
Hope that helps. Nandesuka 16:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo needs to justify his comments. -- Golbez 23:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo is about as wrong on this issue as the sun is hot. My respect for him (as well as a number of other persons involved) did indeed drop, and not just by a "couple of notches". — Nightst a llion (?) 11:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm just encountering this craziness now and have to wonder why people always run around like chickens with their heads cut off when these things happen. Wouldn't it have made more sense to temporarily delete the pictures and ask User:Publicgirluk to upload a photo of herself holding a 'yes, this is really me' sign or somesuch to prove her bona fides? If none were forthcoming then we could block without controversy. If it were proved that user and girl in photos were the same person then we could calmly discuss the potential pitfalls of allowing pornographic 'self promotion' on Wikipedia, come up with guidelines in regards to it (possibly something remotely sane like only allowing relevant photos and limiting the number which can be of any one person) and then see whether this user followed any consensus established. Yes, we can skip all that basic common sense type stuff and instead go with 'assume she is evil and ban her' vs 'assume she is good and fight the nasty people being mean to her'... but why exactly did we? Whichever side turns out to have assumed right is frankly irrelevant given the wholly unneccessary disruption both groups generated. -- CBD 14:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
(Unindent) Nandesua, you said:
In the context you made your remark, it seems fairly obvious that people would interpret it in the way I have. If you did not mean for it to be interpreted this way, then a statement to that effect would clear the matter up. Nevertheless, the statement is still an insult to editors who had sound reasons for disagreeing with your point of view. Tyrenius 23:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
This may not be the correct forum for discussing the general case, rather than the specific. If not, we need to start a new discussion on that general case.
We need policy and guidelines for handling the general case of explicit photos.
The focus of most of my edits are the sexology and sexuality articles, and so I run into this more often than most. I know that this is a topic of discussion on the Masturbation article, for instance.
On the one hand, clearly, we don't want any form of censorship. On the other hand, protecting the long term best interests and viability of Wikipedia in a international environment that has been trending towards conservatism needs to be kept in mind.
Although I don't know, and have never met Jimbo Wales, I respect his position of authority in Wikipedia, and especially when that relates to maintaining the long term viability of Wikipedia.
From a theoretical perspective, we ought to allow any image that is legal to be put on Wikipedia. That's easy to say, and makes sense. However, theory usually is not as effective in practice as it sounds, and this case would likely be no different.
Allowing some sexually explicit photographs, is likely to jeopardize the long term viability of Wikipedia, for a variety of reasons:
If it were up to me, and my project, I would let any legal photo be displayed, as long as it was in the correct context of the article, and the most constructive image available for presenting the concept involved. But then, I would probably go down fighting the case in court, perhaps intellectually "right", but losing in the court of public opinion, and against an overwhelming number of right wing zealots.
I'm happy to continue editing on Wikipedia, and following the guidelines provided for me by those who are steering the project. I may not agree with them on some things, but at least I can have confidence that Wikipedia will survive, and that I am following some kind of agreed upon policy or standard when putting in images for articles.
Atom 15:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip. I opened a page for discussion of this topic in more detail. See template to the right. Atom 01:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I just got linked to WikiTruth, where I read about this situation], and it made me ill and a little embarassed to be a part of Wikipedia. I just put a project together to keep comics article editors from getting burned out, but this may have done me in. Ugh. I may have to at least take a break now. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 15:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
See also: Wikipedia:Policy on private photos of identifiable models
User:Publicgirluk has uploaded a number of sexually-explicit pictures of (supposedly) herself, mostly used in relevant articles. Wikipedia isn't censored, and the user seems well-intentioned, but there's something wrong about having a significant fraction of sexually-explicit images be of a single identifiable person... On User talk:Publicgirluk there is a long string of "fan mail" requesting more images emailed, and that is definitely not what Wikipedia is for. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-08-23 22:17Z
Is there any way that we can be sure that this user is really the person in these photographs? I could forsee some potential legal difficulty for wikipedia if this person isn't who we think it is. Is this a non-issue or does anyone see what I am talking about?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
We don't have any mechanisms in place to verify image copyright ... or, for that matter, image authenticity. Generally, we trust that users will place correct copyright tags on images they upload, unless and until someone claims otherwise.
Consider: We do not enforce WP:NOR with regards to images. If someone uploads an image of a fuzzy camelid and says that it is a llama, we assume that it really is a llama and not an alpaca or a guanaco, unless we have specific evidence to the contrary.
This editor claims that these pictures are of herself, and that she is the copyright holder. We have no evidence to the contrary. By our normal practice, we would let the images stand unless and until someone claims otherwise. -- FOo 04:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The images of her that that I saw that she has provided as GFDL are not pornographic according to US law. Nudity is not pornographic legally speaking in America. An image of a sex reassignment operation or a foreskin removal on a one year old in spite of violence, gore, bondage, and being underage is not porno legally speaking unless you are selling it with lurid descriptions (and why how you are selling it should make a difference you'll have to take up with legal professionals - I find that entirely weird). WAS 4.250 05:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
In order for us to assume that these images are legitimately released under the GFDL by their author, we have to believe that an attractive young woman created a Wikipedia account, saw the opportunity to improve some sexual fetish related articles, and decided to upload private, professional-looking photographs of herself, including photographs of her nude and covered in semen. This, from a user who previously uploaded a copyrighted image of a British porn model ( see bottom). Personally, I find the story a little hard to believe and think that we should request that Publicgirluk substantiate that this is her in the photos, or we should remove them before the real copyright owner complains. Of course, we could take the wait and see approach, but it seems like when it comes to placing 50x50 pixel images of cartoon characters on user pages the approach has always been to be proactive in avoiding copyright infringement, and I like to be consistent. — GT 09:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the problem. (1) Her edits are good. (2) If she has a porn site, she's hiding it pretty well, so I don't see an advertising problem. (3) Her images aren't any worse than a bunch we've seen. I suppose she could post an image of herself holding up a copyleft license if there is serious doubt as to her identity.
Has anyone notified her about this complaint? TheronJ 14:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Charlesknight 14:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a rational response and not really how it would actually happen - most of those institutions (and I worked for an LEA) basically want a hassle free existance. It's not really the actuality of wrongdoing that concerns them, rather the percetion for wrongdoing. If I want into a local library and said my son was surfing wikipedia and found pornography images and what are they going to do about it? well they will just add it to their block fliter no questions asked, they don't want the hassle.
I also used to run the school networks in a number of places (when I was a teacher) and on the basis of what I've just seen, I'd stick Wikipedia straight on the fliter list - because that is far less hassle than explaining to a parent how I've failed (in their perception) in my duty of care to their child. Why would I want the headache? far easier just to take the path of less resistance.
Look how standard page protections are misrepresented in the media - you honestly think a bored journo on a slow newsday couldn't spin this into "a number of degrading images too disgusting to describe in a family newspaper".
Indeed, Because i've been out of touch with this area for a couple of years, I've just phoned a friend who is a headmaster of a comp and after talking for ten minutes, he plans to block it from his network. to me at least that says it all. -- Charlesknight 15:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
You know what might help, some proof that this Publicgirluk is actually the one in the pictures. I belief the standard way of doing this online is to get an identifiable picture of the person holding up a hand-written sign saying something like "I am Publicgirluk on Wikipedia". Publicgirluk, think you can handle that? Shouldn't be too hard. -- Cyde Weys 16:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
But that is the opposite of WP:Assume good faith. It is an acceptable request I suppose, but should not be required. (just one guys opinion) HighInBC 17:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
After having Tyrenius inform me on my talk page I have just finished reading this. I am suprised at the sheer volume of comment, half of which I found insulting and half of which is just laughable. Despite contributing to the project in good faith I appear to be being accused of lying, self promotion, illegal activity, sexual deviance and to cap it all getting Wikipedia banned in the content filters across the world. I don't see anywhere in the FAQ that says Wikipedia is a club, that it requires membership, nor that I have to prove or identify myself. Those asking for me to prove myself to them can start by posting of photo of themselves to show that they are not perverts and why they are entitled to ask for identity. To put the record straight on a number of items 1) I haven't posted a larger numbers of sexually explicit photo's. While accepting that everyone's difinition will vary, I think only 2 could be argued to be in this catagory. I think both of which add to their respective articles, both of which have caused some debate on the article discussion and both articles appear to have reached a consenses. I haven't changed any subsquent edit of mine as I happy with the principles of wikipedia. If you have something to say or don't like my edits then feel free to discuss or amend them on the appropraite page. 2) I am over 18 3) I can't see how my edits are self promotion but for the record I am not interested in self promotion. 4) I don't see the revelance of whether the images are professional or not. For the record they were taken in my bedsit with a proper i.e expensive camera, a canon something or other. 5) I don't have a porn site. I am not a porn star, I am a student. I am comfortable with my sexuality and sexual preferences and I am not ashamed by them. 6) I created one new page which I thought (and still do) added to wikipedia scope of articles and used what I thought was a fair use image. Others disagreed and deleted the article which I am happy to allow.
I am not going to enter further debate I don't have to answer to anyone or prove myself either. If you don't like my contributions then please delete them and my user ID. I have plenty of things to fill my life with. Publicgirluk 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Take the image from the upper right from here, crop at the neck, add a caption about "cum" and you have an example of the image you refer to further nudity on the part of the child would not make it illegal. Pics of nudity are not illegal. Pics of real or fake cum are not ilegal. WAS 4.250 00:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the big concern is that she refused to verify she's actually what she says. Which could have been done easily as cyde pointed: take a picture with a paper saying "yes I'm publicgirluk at wikipedia" (which could be removed afterwards if needed). She specifically stated
I am not going to enter further debate I don't have to answer to anyone or prove myself either. If you don't like my contributions then please delete them and my user ID. I have plenty of things to fill my life with. Publicgirluk 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Since she is refusing to help verifying the source of the images, I will go ahead and delete them. -- Drini 22:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Ref my IRC conversation with you, please do not delete these images. They are legal and correctly uploaded and released, and to ask publicgirluk to do things that other uploaders are not required to do is unacceptable to my mind. --
AlisonW 23:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The most important issue relating to these particular photos is whether they are uploaded by the subject. I don't think anyone is disputing that now (if they are, then they need to say so, and why). In this case, there's nothing for admins to do, but there does seem to be a need for various policy issues to be discussed elsewhere. Tyrenius 22:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
There are several issues that keep getting re-aired, here. 1) Copyright. Wikipedia is somewhat indemnified when the uploader swears that the image is her own, provided that we show due dilligence. Given the professional quality of the images, several people have believed that due dillegence requires more than just, "Oh, sure, screen name, we accept your legal affadavit!" 2) Biting. I've known prostitutes and strippers in the past, but I don't think I've known any female exhibitionists. It would have been unimaginable for either of the first two categories in my experience to have uploaded pornographic images of themselves without a remunerative motive. However, they would not have feigned blushing delicacy if the images provoked an outcry in either case, so all of these Gallahads coming to rescue the damsel in distress are hilarious. If the uploader is the model, then she had better expect some reaction. It's hard to bite when it's bait. 3) "Censorship." Wikipedia is not censored for minors, but it is also not home to any image uploaded by any contributor. It is not "censorship" to reject an image -- saying otherwise is the argument of trolls and edit warriors, consistently. Do we need to illustrate "pearl necklace?" What do we gain by it? Is the article ambiguous without the illustration? What do we lose by it? Any intelligent consideration would reject the illustration even aside from copyright issues. 4) Hoaxing. Some of us think that we are either being hoaxed or that the defenders of the distressed damsel are setting us up for hoaxing and entrapment. If you want to see similar images, go elsewhere or get a significant other, but let the normal review process and evaluation get underway. My own feeling is that this is a reincarnated troll, but I don't think even that much investigation is necessary for rejecting the images. Geogre 17:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a comment here - this saga is long and detailed and this may have been discussed previously, but what is the perceptible difference between this situation (a person uploading sexual imagery they claim to be a photo of themselves) and, say, a man (or woman) posting lurid, private photographs of an ex-wife or girlfriend, perhaps for revenge? I'm still not sure whether the poster has been positively identified as the model, or whether the photos are in fact private, and whether they have been uploaded with permission of the model. It seems to me that in the absence of certainty regarding the identity and copyright status of the photos they should be deleted - to say nothing of my personal feelings regarding the questionable encyclopedic value of such photographs in the first place. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Nandesuka raises a disturbing issue, that high-quality photographs undergo greater scrutiny than low-quality ones. Should we really be discouraging high-quality photo contributions in favor of low-quality ones? Powers T 20:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Apparently User:Goldom has deleted User:Publicgirluk. [ [1]] Dionyseus 21:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Goldom has deleted the userpage as it was being vandalised - the note says "to protect the real user". So it's not like Publicgirluk has been blocked or anything. Meanwhile, I have indefinitely blocked an anonymous account that had only two posts: one vandalising Publicgirl's userpage with the sexually explicit photos under discussion; the other soliciting contact from another female user. I have no particular opinion about the photos themselves. Metamagician3000 01:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points:
OK. Instead of letting this run on and on and on, and getting no where, can we take this to office, and get a diffinate answer on this subject. Yes, there are legal questions that need to be answered, that much is obvious, so it would probably be best for all concerned, including Publicgirl, if office looked at this, and told us what to do from a legal standpoint. Th ε Halo Θ 23:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. The Wikimedia Foundation is a common carrier in the meaning of US telecommunciation law. The foundation has no liability whatsoever for the actions of the contributors to Wikipedia, provided it addresses any complaints promptly. In the absence of specific evidence that there is a problem here (and not just speculations about image quality), there is no compelling legal reason to delete the photos. Assuming good faith is exactly what the law envisions that online forums will do. If there is some malfeasance here, then it might be bad for public relations, but I can't see any reason (copyright or otherwise) to believe that these images pose a legal liability to any here other than the uploader. Dragons flight 23:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflicts)
This conversation does not seem to be getting anywhere, apart from raising points for further discussion. It also covers a number of different areas which doesn't help for clarification. Legal matters and editing decisions in general are intermingled with aspects of this case in particular, although there is obviously a relationship between them.
Certain things are wider in scope and need to be taken elsewhere to debate fully:
Certain things need to be decided now about these particular photos:
As this is an admin noticeboard, not a policy making one, it would be helpful to concentrate on what might need action to be taken, i.e. the last three options.
I find there are some extremely unsatisfactory observations that have been made about these particular images and false conclusions therefore arrived at. I have an extensive experience of working professionally with photography, and these are definitely not what would normally be described as "professional photos", which does not mean they are without merit, appeal or inventiveness. They bear all the hallmarks of being taken by an amateur with a bit more imagination and aesthetic sense than average: that is all. Comments as to the quality of the lighting fall far short of the mark. There is either daylight or improvised lighting, but not professional lighting. I can't see any indication of the use of image processing software, and, if there has been, it has not done any of the things that would normally be done with it. There is just normal degradation of definition from file compression for web use. If anyone pronounces on the technical quality of the images, I would be grateful if they would state their qualifications for doing so.
Judgements alluding to the motivation of someone who would wish to pose for such photos are hopelessly cliched and old-fashioned. It does not surprise me at all from observations of many people I know that someone would wish to do this, nor to post them on the internet, although it is not usual on wikipedia. As Publicgirluk says, she feels comfortable with her sexuality.
There is no evidence to support the notion that the intention of the user is for commercial gain. There is no evidence of solicitation — the reverse if anything. Furthermore, there is very little point using wikipedia for that purpose, when it would be very easy to make money elsewhere with sexual images, if that was what Publicgirluk wanted to do. She was asked if she had a web site, which anyone with a commercial interest certainly would do, and would take the opportunity to promote it. She said she did not have a web site, and did not offer the address of one.
Let us just for the sake of argument assume that everything Publicgirluk has said is true and everything she has done is without dubious motivation. I do not see anything that contravenes that interpretation. If the user is genuine — and I think at the moment we have to act on this basis — then this discussion contains things that should not have been said, and I hope will not be in future.
As far as copyright is concerned, and barring any contractual agreement to the contrary, it remains with the photographer, unless they were taken by her with a timer or some other method. She has indicated they were taken by her boyfriend. If there were a verbal agreement, it would be one person's word against the others, and she has obviously given her consent to the photographer for them to be taken, so her case would be weakened. There does not appear to be any dispute between them over the use of the work, however, but it may be a legal nicety that needs to be addressed, if not in this, then in other cases.
Tyrenius 23:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
And the attacks made on her strike me as excessive. The uploader is a new user. The uploader was not told about this debate until it had reached an unacceptable point. You say she's testing policy. From her words, she seemed to think it was policy and was surprised there was anything to test. After all, her talk page had been getting a lot of compliments, so what was there to tell her other than she was doing the right thing. Nobody broached these matters with her directly. I think the whole way this has been handled is quite unacceptable. The first thing is to WP:AGF before you start laying into someone. After all, if you see a page of erect penises, why on earth should you think that anyone would object to bare breasts and the natural conclusion to an erect penis? Is there something that I'm getting wrong thinking there are some rather ambivalent, not to mention double, standards at work here. She wasn't even showing genitalia. Some porn! Tyrenius 01:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC
As Ryan said, above, it's really remarkable that the defense is so vigorous here. We have dashing Gallahads coming to the rescue of, if everything is true, a woman who has 1) engaged in pornographic photography and 2) uploaded pictures of herself with no thought of repayment, and such a person is not very likely to be shocked by having folks react. If she is, then she must live in a very, very different world than any I've visited. More to the point, what is damning here is that this defense is asking everyone to ask no more questions, to just be quiet, allow the photos up, to have no suspicions, and to begin even protecting the images. That's absurd, and it's bad practice. It's the duty of all of us to use our common sense and to keep our BS detectors running on full, especially with new users who show up and immediately know their way around. It's simple: self-made pornography among young women is rare enough that people are suspicious. That's a good thing. It's a very good thing. To suggest that it isn't because of "AGF" is absurd. Geogre 02:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The images showing sexuality and nudity should be deleted (or stored on someone's hard drive until cropped so no indvidual is identifiable). This is because we have not established for certain that the model has given permission. Legally and technically it is probably the photographer who owns the copyright and she has given her consent for the photographs, so she will have little recourse, at least under UK law, especially as it is not being used for any commercial gain.
However, I don't think we would want to upload such images, even if legally in the clear, if the subject was unwilling. This is for two reasons. 1) Sensitivity to the subject 2) Protection of the Foundation and the negative publicity which would result in a vengeful ex-partner (for example) uploading intimate photos.
If verification can be established, possibly through OFFICE, as is done with other copyright permissions, then there is no reason, at the moment to delete them.
The above takes into consideration Jimbo Wales' clear instructions for sensitivity to living people, particularly after the Siegenthaler case for one.
It has been suggested that OFFICE should be contacted, but my own experience of doing this recently showed me that they much preferred for responsible action to be taken by users. Those closer to OFFICE than myself may like to comment on this.
Tyrenius 02:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
ALERT - At least one image has been deleted - quote :-
"00:11, 28 August 2006 Voice of All (Talk | contribs) deleted "Image:Facial.png" (Deleted mass bad faith or copyright violating image uploads by a single user.) "
Preempting much? exolon 01:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Not at all, that's pretty much routine when we don't know the copyright status of an image. It's not irreversible ... deleted images are now recoverable. -- Cyde Weys 01:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
To avoid such debacles in the future, I suggest we agree to a working guideline, until the matter can be thrashed out properly. This is that we do not allow certain images, unless there is verification that the uploader is who they claim they are. This verification can be done in any suitable way. The user can then be informed with normal wiki courtesy from the outset. Images in this category would be anything that identifies a specific individual where there is nudity or sexuality, or anything else that that individual might find compromising in any reasonable estimate. Tyrenius 02:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
A particular procedure is going to be impossible, here. In essence what I've argued all along is that common sense has to prevail. The more compromising a photo of an identifiable person is, the more necessary permission would be. If, for example, there were a close up photo of a vulva, and we have several, or even of penetration, which is the big no-no in most of the English speaking nations of Wikipedia .en, that might be less a matter of concern than a topless photo showing a woman's face. The latter is identifiable: a person's face and torso are visible, and therefore she (or he, I suppose) could be personally damaged by the display to a greater degree than a single body part's owner would be. At the same time, the more legally challenging a photo (penetration and "perverse" sexual practices illustrated (and these are by community standards, not by editorial ones)), the more certain we would need to be, but these are sliding scales. Finally, the more edits of a non-controversial nature, the more likely the uploads are legitimate, but it's never certain. Each of these factor in. A very, very well established user who uploads a full body, identifiable, photo of a woman engaging in coprophagia should still have to meet the highest standards of proof, while a new user uploading a photo of a rooster (rather than a cock) might need none but an avowal. In other words, suspicion is based on the nature of the upload and the degree of history, but it should always be present when an identifying photo is uploaded. (Another important example would be any identifying photo of any child in any state of garb.) Geogre 10:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
In an attempt to kickstart this lengthy debate into people actually doing something about our lack of a suitable policy have created Wikipedia:Policy on private photos of identifyable models. Please just go and edit that page with what you feel is needed. Also feel free to change the name if you can think of a better one. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 10:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, or has this been blown way out of proportion? What the hell makes this so different to the hundreds of other nude photos available on Wikipedia? This is certainly not a new thing, not out of the ordinary, and none of the arguments convince me that any special treatment is required. Perhaps we should have a policy WP:SCARE (Don't scare the newbies). This would certainly fall under that category — I'm pretty sure publicgirluk is sick of the discussion about her, which she was barely even informed about. We say "Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors", now let's bloody well act like it isn't! — Werdna talk criticism 11:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: I forgot to mention, the stalkers aren't any bigger issue than those ridiculous trolls who hit on Phaedriel. If somebody's behaving inappropriately towards somebody who's contributed these photos, then I think the arbitration committee or administrators are well within their rights, and in fact, I believe it is their duty to intervene. Treating Publicgirluk in that manner borders on is disruptive harrassment, which should be a blockable offence. These people are clearly not here to write an encyclopedia, and certainly do not have the attitude towards women that is expected at this project. —
Werdna
talk
criticism 11:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Werdna & others, it's rather disrespectful to come in at the tail end of a discussion and declare that we've all been wasting our time when you don't even appear to recognize the core issue at hand. Hint: nobody here thinks these photos should be deleted on account of being too risqué. You asked, "What the hell makes this so different to the hundreds of other nude photos available on Wikipedia?" The answer is that these were uploaded by a new user and were of a nature that caused many of us to doubt that the user was the model who was depicted in the photos. — GT 14:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, in my humble opinion:
Much has been said in the discussion that I imply my own guilt by not contributing to what is now a lengthy discussion. For a number of admins, the reason for not contributing is going to come as a shock. Not everyone in the world, in fact the majority of people in the world don't have a holiday in the 4th July. Here in the UK, where I am (the clue is in the user name) we have something called a Summer Bank Holiday which was this weekend. As I now come to understand, Wikipedia is a little light on the subject. However, it is a tradional weekend when a significant proportion (typically around 10 to 15%) of the population of the UK disappear on long weekend break normally their last before Winter (citation here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5283820.stm?ls). As you want me to comment I shall. On some of the specifics of the attacks on me
1) I am amazed on what the experts can deduce from a low resolution, highly compressed JPG file. Or rather I am not. They were taken in my room at universtiy by my BF. There is no studio lighting, props or other professional tools. They were cropped in paintshop pro by me prior to uploaded. I thought that was good manners as I assumed you didn't want to see a shot of my sofa and wall.
2) I am not a sock puppet but I am 22 (It is nice to know I look 5 years younger)
3) My BF and I make a lot of use of Wikipedia in our studies and wanted to contribute to the project. We have two great pastimes - our sexuality and english heritage. Sorry if that is a bit wacky and not like the people you know but that is the way it is. We have made a number of small edits on topics which we felt we could add value. By the way I can recommend the Concorde trip at Filton and no I wasn't the only girl on the tour.
4) I personally find it odd that certain admins feel there is difference between a picture of me with semen and a girl tied up, wearing a ball gag and suspended simply because they are dressed. I also fail to see how using one of pictures to illustrate a "cameltoe" is not sexual either but it takes all sorts
5) Just because comments are made in the third party and sprinked with weasel words. It doesn't prevent the comment from being personal or insulting.
6) Again, it is going to come as a shock, but no I didn't think the contributions would cause this debate. Wikipedia as far as we could tell, has lots of sexually explicit photos, has a boldly presented WP:AGF policy and doesn't detail any form of approval / moderator process. Most of our edits have past without comment. One photo was deleted as it didn't match the topic - something I disagreed with but happy with the consensus. One other had a lively debate which quickly reached consensus and everybody moved on. After a significant period of time I am alerted to pages of debate somewhere else in Wikepedia where I appear to have been hauled before the great and the good of Wikipedia admins. My own POV is that every article should have an image - an image describes a thousand words. Wikipedia can do this, and it sets it apart from printed rivals because it can. If an article is not worthy of an image then the article is not worthy of inclusion. In hindsight there is a difference which is that the other pictures are uploaded by males and are not self-pics. I can't help wondering if the BF uploaded them under a male ID whether anyone would raise an eyebrow for being outside the norm.
On some of the wider issues raised 7) Wikipedia does need a policy on whether living persons have to prove ownwership of pictures if it is to move forward with a consistent and fairly applied approach to articles or images they may offend in certain cultures. Alternatively it can stay as it is and bite when a picture offends the POV or offends the sensibilities of some of the admins for "not being normal behaviour"
8) I can understand the legal arguments but they apply to many pictures. More importantly, wikipedia is hosted on servers in several countries whose own laws, different to that in the US, apply. This implies that wikipedia would have to operate at the lowest common dominator yet no discussions has taken place on what this is, again a reoccuring theme of US law and US attidue dominate.
9) The number of edits is not a measure of worth. From what I can see most edits on wikipedia consis of formating and correcting typographical errors. I do not have the time to do this and have limited myself to edits which I believe add to the information content of the article.
When I joined wikipedia I did so with a view of what it was, two important elements were it was international in nature and that everyone was equal and had a valid POV. The debates have shown me that this is not the case, that wikipedia is in fact dominated by US editors and contributors who despite their well meaning and obvious loyalty to the project continue to display stereotypical behaviour showing a lack of understanding of anything outside their own borders and judge the world by their own values and beliefs.
Which leaves me on having to decide the way forward. I appear to have two choices; withdraw - delete my images, contributions and ID while undoubtedly hearing a chorus of "no smoke without fire" behind me; or post a photo of me is some kind of verifiable pose to satisfy those who can not believe that a girl is comfortable telling people that she likes a man to ejaculate on her face.
Wikipedia is not what I thought it was, while there appear to be genuine understanding people here, there are others who I do not want to be associated with. I posted under WP:AGF and if that isn't sufficient then I am not going to perform like a circus lion for the benefit of a small few. I said in a previous post that I am comfortable with my sexuality, I am not ashamed but proud and I have no problem listening to the "I told you so"'s. I would be grateful if an admin could delete my contributions/images as I no longer give permission for their use. Publicgirluk 19:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations to all the small minded, petty, prudish, and plain mean-spirited editors/admins who questioned, insulted and attacked this contributor for daring to actually attempt to contribute to wikipedia. You must all be very happy now. Well you haven't just lost one contributor, I quit too. I don't want to be part of a project that thinks treating people like this is acceptable. exolon 00:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
OK well that's your choice, but bear in mind the concern of many admins was that the girl in the photo really was the girl who uploaded the pics and that she really was happy about having such pictures uploaded. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Good. I'm not sure I want people like that editing Wikipedia. Eilicea 14:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted an invitation to Publicgirluk for returning to Wikipedia on User talk:Publicgirluk. -- Tyrenius 01:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Are we having a policy debate on the issue of uploading photos somewhere else? If not - I guess the following goes here. Further to my earlier points, I've been enquiring further about the guidance that the DFES (the UK Department of education) provides to schools and it appears that Wikipedia is not suitable for use in UK schools (because of the presence of "pornographic" images). I am trying to get clarification about which particular part of the guidance covers this and will post it, once I get it.
-- Charlesknight 08:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
We are having a debate here Wikipedia:Policy on private photos of identifyable models. At the moment I am not aware of any UK schools prevented access to Wikipedia. Certainly the schools that I've worked in all allow access (for the moment). This is an adult encylopedia though. Schools should do what they feel best but I don't think we should take that into account whatsoever. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 01:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"It is unfortunate that there was any debate at all here. This was pretty clearly a case of trolling. I would recommend a checkuser on various parties involved to see who else we ought to block in this nonsense. People are really missing the point if they think we should allow this kind of nonsense to go on. This is an encyclopedia, not a free speech zone for trolls.-- Jimbo Wales 16:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)"
Hope that helps. Nandesuka 16:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo needs to justify his comments. -- Golbez 23:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo is about as wrong on this issue as the sun is hot. My respect for him (as well as a number of other persons involved) did indeed drop, and not just by a "couple of notches". — Nightst a llion (?) 11:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm just encountering this craziness now and have to wonder why people always run around like chickens with their heads cut off when these things happen. Wouldn't it have made more sense to temporarily delete the pictures and ask User:Publicgirluk to upload a photo of herself holding a 'yes, this is really me' sign or somesuch to prove her bona fides? If none were forthcoming then we could block without controversy. If it were proved that user and girl in photos were the same person then we could calmly discuss the potential pitfalls of allowing pornographic 'self promotion' on Wikipedia, come up with guidelines in regards to it (possibly something remotely sane like only allowing relevant photos and limiting the number which can be of any one person) and then see whether this user followed any consensus established. Yes, we can skip all that basic common sense type stuff and instead go with 'assume she is evil and ban her' vs 'assume she is good and fight the nasty people being mean to her'... but why exactly did we? Whichever side turns out to have assumed right is frankly irrelevant given the wholly unneccessary disruption both groups generated. -- CBD 14:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
(Unindent) Nandesua, you said:
In the context you made your remark, it seems fairly obvious that people would interpret it in the way I have. If you did not mean for it to be interpreted this way, then a statement to that effect would clear the matter up. Nevertheless, the statement is still an insult to editors who had sound reasons for disagreeing with your point of view. Tyrenius 23:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
This may not be the correct forum for discussing the general case, rather than the specific. If not, we need to start a new discussion on that general case.
We need policy and guidelines for handling the general case of explicit photos.
The focus of most of my edits are the sexology and sexuality articles, and so I run into this more often than most. I know that this is a topic of discussion on the Masturbation article, for instance.
On the one hand, clearly, we don't want any form of censorship. On the other hand, protecting the long term best interests and viability of Wikipedia in a international environment that has been trending towards conservatism needs to be kept in mind.
Although I don't know, and have never met Jimbo Wales, I respect his position of authority in Wikipedia, and especially when that relates to maintaining the long term viability of Wikipedia.
From a theoretical perspective, we ought to allow any image that is legal to be put on Wikipedia. That's easy to say, and makes sense. However, theory usually is not as effective in practice as it sounds, and this case would likely be no different.
Allowing some sexually explicit photographs, is likely to jeopardize the long term viability of Wikipedia, for a variety of reasons:
If it were up to me, and my project, I would let any legal photo be displayed, as long as it was in the correct context of the article, and the most constructive image available for presenting the concept involved. But then, I would probably go down fighting the case in court, perhaps intellectually "right", but losing in the court of public opinion, and against an overwhelming number of right wing zealots.
I'm happy to continue editing on Wikipedia, and following the guidelines provided for me by those who are steering the project. I may not agree with them on some things, but at least I can have confidence that Wikipedia will survive, and that I am following some kind of agreed upon policy or standard when putting in images for articles.
Atom 15:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip. I opened a page for discussion of this topic in more detail. See template to the right. Atom 01:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I just got linked to WikiTruth, where I read about this situation], and it made me ill and a little embarassed to be a part of Wikipedia. I just put a project together to keep comics article editors from getting burned out, but this may have done me in. Ugh. I may have to at least take a break now. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 15:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)