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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Cala, Eastern Cape, Queenstown, Port Elizabeth, Uitenhage, King William's Town, Maclear, Eastern Cape, Berlin, Eastern Cape, Lydenburg, Witbank, Machadodorp, Waterval Boven, Hectorspruit, Piet Relief Closers: BilledMammal Park3r These articles have been controversial since 2004. They are the former names of cities in South Africa renamed following the end of apartheid. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of these new names being adopted. Every major English language publication in South Africa uses the new names. I was under the impression English language sources were the main method to prove WP:COMMONNAME but that has not been followed on these articles. I would like an admin or a few to review these South African city names. There is yet to be clear reasoning as to why the names used in all major English language publications, government, and the majority of the population, are not the WP:COMMONNAME. I have done nothing but follow WP:COMMONNAME to the letter. All of my edits in regards to South African city names were reversed by Park3r and BilledMammal within a day without any contradictory evidence being provided. Park3r has also said "The reality is that South Africans of all backgrounds don’t often embrace renamings, perhaps because they are done after perfunctory consultations, and because the South Africa is increasingly anarchic and few people subscribe to government directions." This is patently false and hard not to read as completely racist. Racism on South African Wikipedia articles has been reported on before. However, nothing was done to prevent this from happening in the future. Even if we dismiss every single English language source, search results are almost always favoring the newer names. I have submitted requests similar to this before but there is yet to be someone who looks through the sources and explains why these new names aren't accepted on Wikipedia. I find it strange that in small South African towns that are over 90% black, where the only change was a minor grammar correction (like Kala, Eastern Cape) , these still remain "controversial". There are more Black Africans that speak English than Afrikaners in South Africa, so the argument that we use the Afrikaner names because Afrikaners are the majority English speakers (which has been brought up before), is false. This whole process is beyond frustrating and I apologize if I sound upset. I have been arguing this for months with no resolution. My main argument is just that these articles should be moved. But the fact that this controversy has been happening for the past 17 years should surely raise some alarms. There is blatant bias in these articles. Just want to make that point clear because I doubt there will be any consequences for the users who dislike majority rule in South Africa. Apologies for the poor formatting, I tried to make it look as decent as possible. If you would like, feel free to correct the formatting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desertambition ( talk • contribs)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||||||||
With 8 votes in favor, 8 votes explicitly against and plenty of alternative proposals, there was clearly no consensus for the page move (opposing users: Grufo, Andrewa, Iraniangal777, buidhe, BilledMammal, Lambrusquiño, Mcphurphy, Usernamekiran – diffs: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8). Furthermore, the close depended on the closer's own argument that “concubinage” should be preferred because it appears to be “the primarily used term”. Choosing a title on the basis of what term appears to be “the most used” was itself a disputed subject, and arguments from WP:QUALIFIER (“Natural Disambiguation”) were part of the move discussion. Grufo ( talk) 18:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Closer closed a contentious discussion while consensus was unclear, and three new users had arrived the previous day. Closer is describing the article as a "conspiracy theory", despite sourcing to AP, NYT, NPR and similar. Closer is not neutral. [1] [2] Furthermore, the AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/China COVID-19 cover-up allegations was at a new title which the article had not had any chance to adjust to prior to the AfD. My initial response at the AfD was confused by this. The response of User:GreenC appears to also have been influenced in this manner. In light of the fact that these two responses were influenced, one cannot exclude the possibility that others were as well. The AfD is therefore tainted by the improper close. Adoring nanny ( talk) 17:03, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Close depended on closer's own new argument. The RM should be reopened to allow discussion of this new argument. Disclosure: I was involved in the RM discussion. My !vote has been variously interpreted! Andrewa ( talk) 00:08, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Cala, Eastern Cape, Queenstown, Port Elizabeth, Uitenhage, King William's Town, Maclear, Eastern Cape, Berlin, Eastern Cape, Lydenburg, Witbank, Machadodorp, Waterval Boven, Hectorspruit, Piet Relief Closers: BilledMammal Park3r These articles have been controversial since 2004. They are the former names of cities in South Africa renamed following the end of apartheid. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of these new names being adopted. Every major English language publication in South Africa uses the new names. I was under the impression English language sources were the main method to prove WP:COMMONNAME but that has not been followed on these articles. I would like an admin or a few to review these South African city names. There is yet to be clear reasoning as to why the names used in all major English language publications, government, and the majority of the population, are not the WP:COMMONNAME. I have done nothing but follow WP:COMMONNAME to the letter. All of my edits in regards to South African city names were reversed by Park3r and BilledMammal within a day without any contradictory evidence being provided. Park3r has also said "The reality is that South Africans of all backgrounds don’t often embrace renamings, perhaps because they are done after perfunctory consultations, and because the South Africa is increasingly anarchic and few people subscribe to government directions." This is patently false and hard not to read as completely racist. Racism on South African Wikipedia articles has been reported on before. However, nothing was done to prevent this from happening in the future. Even if we dismiss every single English language source, search results are almost always favoring the newer names. I have submitted requests similar to this before but there is yet to be someone who looks through the sources and explains why these new names aren't accepted on Wikipedia. I find it strange that in small South African towns that are over 90% black, where the only change was a minor grammar correction (like Kala, Eastern Cape) , these still remain "controversial". There are more Black Africans that speak English than Afrikaners in South Africa, so the argument that we use the Afrikaner names because Afrikaners are the majority English speakers (which has been brought up before), is false. This whole process is beyond frustrating and I apologize if I sound upset. I have been arguing this for months with no resolution. My main argument is just that these articles should be moved. But the fact that this controversy has been happening for the past 17 years should surely raise some alarms. There is blatant bias in these articles. Just want to make that point clear because I doubt there will be any consequences for the users who dislike majority rule in South Africa. Apologies for the poor formatting, I tried to make it look as decent as possible. If you would like, feel free to correct the formatting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desertambition ( talk • contribs)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||||||||
With 8 votes in favor, 8 votes explicitly against and plenty of alternative proposals, there was clearly no consensus for the page move (opposing users: Grufo, Andrewa, Iraniangal777, buidhe, BilledMammal, Lambrusquiño, Mcphurphy, Usernamekiran – diffs: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8). Furthermore, the close depended on the closer's own argument that “concubinage” should be preferred because it appears to be “the primarily used term”. Choosing a title on the basis of what term appears to be “the most used” was itself a disputed subject, and arguments from WP:QUALIFIER (“Natural Disambiguation”) were part of the move discussion. Grufo ( talk) 18:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Closer closed a contentious discussion while consensus was unclear, and three new users had arrived the previous day. Closer is describing the article as a "conspiracy theory", despite sourcing to AP, NYT, NPR and similar. Closer is not neutral. [1] [2] Furthermore, the AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/China COVID-19 cover-up allegations was at a new title which the article had not had any chance to adjust to prior to the AfD. My initial response at the AfD was confused by this. The response of User:GreenC appears to also have been influenced in this manner. In light of the fact that these two responses were influenced, one cannot exclude the possibility that others were as well. The AfD is therefore tainted by the improper close. Adoring nanny ( talk) 17:03, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Close depended on closer's own new argument. The RM should be reopened to allow discussion of this new argument. Disclosure: I was involved in the RM discussion. My !vote has been variously interpreted! Andrewa ( talk) 00:08, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |