- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the discussion was: delete. — JJMC89 ( T· C) 00:37, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Portal:Christian music
Abysmal micro-portal on a broad topic.
Created [1] in June 2007 by Ajcfreak ( talk · contribs), who last edited in late 2018. The lead of WP:POG has said since late 2006 "Do not create a portal if you do not intend to assist in its regular maintenance", but that has not happened here: Ajcfreak's last edit to ths portal was in 2008. [2]
Special:PrefixIndex/Portal:Christian music shows a small set of sub-pages:
- only 2 selected articles. Portal:Christian music/Selected article/1 is about Contemporary Christian music, and Portal:Christian music/Selected article/2 is about a metalcore band The Chariot (band), which was moved here when Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Christian hardcore closed as merge. There is nothing about the rich liturgical tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, or the huge range of protestant hymns; there's just two items on what are basically fringe sub-topics.
- Only one Portal:Christian music/Selected biography, about Christian country music singer David L. Cook. In the 2000-year-old tradition of christian music, this is also a fringe topic.
- Portal:Christian music/Did you know has ten sub-pages, all created in May 2019 by @ Northamerica1000. They mostly seem to be split out from the list as created in 2007, or merged from Portal:Christian hardcore. So far as I can see, none of them has anything to do with WP:DYK, and even if they did, they are way out of date. . Per WP:DYK, "The DYK section showcases new or expanded articles that are selected through an informal review process. It is not a general trivia section" ... but this decade-old list loses the newness, so even if these were originally DYK items their only effect is as a trivia section, contrary to WP:TRIVIA.
WP:POG guides that portals should be about "broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". This is in theory a broad topic, but in practice has not attracted maintainers or viewers. In Jan–Feb 2019 it got only 12 pageviews per day.
Per WP:PORTAL, "Portals serve as enhanced 'Main Pages' for specific broad subjects". In this case the head article Christian music is only start-class, but its navbox Template:Christian music has 71 links. This abandoned portal adds nothing to that. If any editor wants to build (and crucially maintain) a portal which actually adds value for readers, they would do much better to start afresh ... and in the emantime it's unfair on reader to lure them to this abandoned relic.
Two newish features of the Wikimedia software means that the article and navboxes offers most of the functionality which portals like this set out to offer. Both features are available only to ordinary readers who are not logged in, but you can test them without logging out by right-clicking on a link, and the select "open in private window" (in Firefox) or "open in incognito window" (Chrome).
- mouseover: on any link, mouseover shows you the picture and the start of the lead. So the preview-selected page-function of portals is redundant: something almost as good is available automatically on any navbox or other set of links. Try it by right-clicking on this link to Template:Christian music, open in a private/incognito tab, and mouseover any link.
- automatic imagery galleries: clicking on an image brings up an image gallery of all the images on that page. It's full-screen, so it's actually much better than a click-for-next image gallery on a portal. Try it by right-clicking on this link to the article Christian music, open in a private/incognito tab, and click on any image to start the slideshow
Similar features have been available since 2015 to users of Wikipedia's Android app.
Maybe someday someone will build and maintain a portal which actually adds value for readers. But if so, they will do better to start afresh, rather than building on these 12-year-old content forks.
So I propose that this portal and its sub-pages be deleted per [WP:TNT]], without prejudice to recreating a curated portal in accordance with whatever criteria the community may have agreed at that time. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:46, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. - A not notable page(s). Plenty of articles already, portal not needed. The Zeus is Ha-Zeus ( talk) 23:09, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment – Plenty of articles is actually a reason why this portal meets WP:POG guidelines in terms of broadness of scope. Furthermore, portals do not need to meet notability guidelines, topics do. North America 1000 23:13, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete As a member of that project, I can't recall being asked to update that page. If someone desperately wanted to have a page, we could recreate it. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 23:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep Merit of this page notwithstanding, Contemporary Christian music is not a “fringe subtopic”. It’s the most popular form of Christian music today. There’s also the fact that most of the featured or good material on Christian music relates to the contemporary genre. That being said, there are plenty of featured and good articles on this subject that include hymns ( Amazing Grace). Here’s a list of 88 good articles which range from contemporary Christian to mainstream songs about god to hymns and chants. The scope is definitely large enough for a portal (2000 years of tradition + multiple modern music genres). One obvious change might be making the “selected biography” be Bob Dylan, one of five featured articles in the project’s scope.
- I don’t know the first thing about portals, and frankly the WikiProject Christian music is just a handful of editors working in diverging areas, but I’d be open to improving this thing. There’s a wealth of quality material here that could make a stellar portal. Toa Nidhiki05 00:04, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- @ Toa Nidhiki05: your comments show little sign of having read all of the nomination.
- The nomination explicitly acknowledges that this topic is in theory broad enough for a portal, and of course there is plenty of material. The problem is that in the 12 years since this portal created, nobody has bothered to make something which actually adds value for readers. This is the perennial problem with portals: plenty of material available, but making decent portals requires sustained hard work, and v few editors are willing to do that. Portals like this stem from an era when lots of portals were created by editors who lacked a clear understanding of how much work is required to make them useful, and how much ongoing work is need to keep them useful.
- The reason that they rot is that hardly anyone uses portals (the median figure for daily pageviews of a portal is a pathetic 15 per day). The head article typically get between 100 and 2000 times as many pageviews as the portal ... so editors rightly ask why spend their time on creating a showcase for content when nobody wants the showcase; they work instead on actual content.
- So It's highly unlikely that anyone will want to make a portal, which is why I propose deletion ... but in the unlikely event that someone does want to make it, I leave the way open proposing deletion it per [WP:TNT]], without prejudice to recreating a curated portal in accordance with whatever criteria the community may have agreed at that time. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 03:15, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete as per the analysis by BHG. The topic of Christian music may be the sort of "broad subject area" that does not lend itself to being covered by a single portal with a single portal maintainer, due largely to the divisions within Christianity. We can see that this portal isn't attracting either large numbers of readers or a portal maintainer. Robert McClenon ( talk) 04:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - As per nominators rationale. BneiBrakPhone ( talk) 08:57, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - Abandoned draft of a portal, 41 subpages, created 2007-06-13 13:59:23 by User:Ajcfreak. Never went alive (2 articles)! Nothing to keep. Portal:Christian music. Pldx1 ( talk) 13:16, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the discussion was: delete. — JJMC89 ( T· C) 00:37, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Portal:Christian music
Abysmal micro-portal on a broad topic.
Created [1] in June 2007 by Ajcfreak ( talk · contribs), who last edited in late 2018. The lead of WP:POG has said since late 2006 "Do not create a portal if you do not intend to assist in its regular maintenance", but that has not happened here: Ajcfreak's last edit to ths portal was in 2008. [2]
Special:PrefixIndex/Portal:Christian music shows a small set of sub-pages:
- only 2 selected articles. Portal:Christian music/Selected article/1 is about Contemporary Christian music, and Portal:Christian music/Selected article/2 is about a metalcore band The Chariot (band), which was moved here when Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Christian hardcore closed as merge. There is nothing about the rich liturgical tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, or the huge range of protestant hymns; there's just two items on what are basically fringe sub-topics.
- Only one Portal:Christian music/Selected biography, about Christian country music singer David L. Cook. In the 2000-year-old tradition of christian music, this is also a fringe topic.
- Portal:Christian music/Did you know has ten sub-pages, all created in May 2019 by @ Northamerica1000. They mostly seem to be split out from the list as created in 2007, or merged from Portal:Christian hardcore. So far as I can see, none of them has anything to do with WP:DYK, and even if they did, they are way out of date. . Per WP:DYK, "The DYK section showcases new or expanded articles that are selected through an informal review process. It is not a general trivia section" ... but this decade-old list loses the newness, so even if these were originally DYK items their only effect is as a trivia section, contrary to WP:TRIVIA.
WP:POG guides that portals should be about "broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". This is in theory a broad topic, but in practice has not attracted maintainers or viewers. In Jan–Feb 2019 it got only 12 pageviews per day.
Per WP:PORTAL, "Portals serve as enhanced 'Main Pages' for specific broad subjects". In this case the head article Christian music is only start-class, but its navbox Template:Christian music has 71 links. This abandoned portal adds nothing to that. If any editor wants to build (and crucially maintain) a portal which actually adds value for readers, they would do much better to start afresh ... and in the emantime it's unfair on reader to lure them to this abandoned relic.
Two newish features of the Wikimedia software means that the article and navboxes offers most of the functionality which portals like this set out to offer. Both features are available only to ordinary readers who are not logged in, but you can test them without logging out by right-clicking on a link, and the select "open in private window" (in Firefox) or "open in incognito window" (Chrome).
- mouseover: on any link, mouseover shows you the picture and the start of the lead. So the preview-selected page-function of portals is redundant: something almost as good is available automatically on any navbox or other set of links. Try it by right-clicking on this link to Template:Christian music, open in a private/incognito tab, and mouseover any link.
- automatic imagery galleries: clicking on an image brings up an image gallery of all the images on that page. It's full-screen, so it's actually much better than a click-for-next image gallery on a portal. Try it by right-clicking on this link to the article Christian music, open in a private/incognito tab, and click on any image to start the slideshow
Similar features have been available since 2015 to users of Wikipedia's Android app.
Maybe someday someone will build and maintain a portal which actually adds value for readers. But if so, they will do better to start afresh, rather than building on these 12-year-old content forks.
So I propose that this portal and its sub-pages be deleted per [WP:TNT]], without prejudice to recreating a curated portal in accordance with whatever criteria the community may have agreed at that time. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:46, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. - A not notable page(s). Plenty of articles already, portal not needed. The Zeus is Ha-Zeus ( talk) 23:09, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment – Plenty of articles is actually a reason why this portal meets WP:POG guidelines in terms of broadness of scope. Furthermore, portals do not need to meet notability guidelines, topics do. North America 1000 23:13, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete As a member of that project, I can't recall being asked to update that page. If someone desperately wanted to have a page, we could recreate it. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 23:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep Merit of this page notwithstanding, Contemporary Christian music is not a “fringe subtopic”. It’s the most popular form of Christian music today. There’s also the fact that most of the featured or good material on Christian music relates to the contemporary genre. That being said, there are plenty of featured and good articles on this subject that include hymns ( Amazing Grace). Here’s a list of 88 good articles which range from contemporary Christian to mainstream songs about god to hymns and chants. The scope is definitely large enough for a portal (2000 years of tradition + multiple modern music genres). One obvious change might be making the “selected biography” be Bob Dylan, one of five featured articles in the project’s scope.
- I don’t know the first thing about portals, and frankly the WikiProject Christian music is just a handful of editors working in diverging areas, but I’d be open to improving this thing. There’s a wealth of quality material here that could make a stellar portal. Toa Nidhiki05 00:04, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- @ Toa Nidhiki05: your comments show little sign of having read all of the nomination.
- The nomination explicitly acknowledges that this topic is in theory broad enough for a portal, and of course there is plenty of material. The problem is that in the 12 years since this portal created, nobody has bothered to make something which actually adds value for readers. This is the perennial problem with portals: plenty of material available, but making decent portals requires sustained hard work, and v few editors are willing to do that. Portals like this stem from an era when lots of portals were created by editors who lacked a clear understanding of how much work is required to make them useful, and how much ongoing work is need to keep them useful.
- The reason that they rot is that hardly anyone uses portals (the median figure for daily pageviews of a portal is a pathetic 15 per day). The head article typically get between 100 and 2000 times as many pageviews as the portal ... so editors rightly ask why spend their time on creating a showcase for content when nobody wants the showcase; they work instead on actual content.
- So It's highly unlikely that anyone will want to make a portal, which is why I propose deletion ... but in the unlikely event that someone does want to make it, I leave the way open proposing deletion it per [WP:TNT]], without prejudice to recreating a curated portal in accordance with whatever criteria the community may have agreed at that time. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 03:15, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete as per the analysis by BHG. The topic of Christian music may be the sort of "broad subject area" that does not lend itself to being covered by a single portal with a single portal maintainer, due largely to the divisions within Christianity. We can see that this portal isn't attracting either large numbers of readers or a portal maintainer. Robert McClenon ( talk) 04:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - As per nominators rationale. BneiBrakPhone ( talk) 08:57, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - Abandoned draft of a portal, 41 subpages, created 2007-06-13 13:59:23 by User:Ajcfreak. Never went alive (2 articles)! Nothing to keep. Portal:Christian music. Pldx1 ( talk) 13:16, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.