Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
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![]() | |
Status | closed |
Request date | Unknown |
Mediator(s) | BrownHornet21 ( talk · contribs) |
[[Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases|]][[Category:Wikipedia medcab maintenance|]]
Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.
Hi, I am the BrownHornet and I have taken this case. Let's keep the discussion on this mediation page. I have a few ground rules:
Let me see if I can accurately summarize the scope of the dispute.
1. Legionas has made a number of edits to the Georgy Zhukov page, questioning the sources cited by other editors.
2. The most recent edits seems to debate whether P.Ya. Mezhiritzky, Reading Marshal Zhukov, (Philadelphia: Libas Consulting)(2002) is . . . a reliable source? I gather this from one of Legionas' edit summaries: "Mezhericky is not using any other documents than Zhukov's memoirs in this chapter. There are no documents confirming fairytales of Zhukov."
3. Legionas also challenged the following paragraph in mid June:
Legionas' explanations for removing this edit on at least four occasions was: "none of these historians suport opinion that Zhukov was good strategist," "references not supporting claims removed together with unfounded claims," "Irpen's referenced sources do not confirm his claims. His references shouldn't be here," and "rv irpen. No modern historian in his references says that Zhukov was good strategist, only marshall Vasilevsky says that, who is not a modern historian." There's more, but I stopped at four.
Have I accurately summarized the dispute (or the recent disputes, at least)? BrownHornet21 01:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is the Mediator's Proposal:
1. Since both sides cite verifiable sources, a suitable compromise would be to state that historians or strategists debate whether Zhukov was a brilliant military strategist or just the benefactor of having a much larger army. (Either that, or both sides agree to keep the issue out of the article.)
This is pretty much what TSO1D suggested initially, and after seeing each side's arguments I agree with the viewpoint that "all sides must be presented" to keep this aspect of the article in NPOV.
If you agree with the Proposal, please sign your name below. along with any thoughts or comments you may have.
1. TSO1D 00:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC) I agree with the proposal as I have from the beginning. TSO1D 00:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
2. Sigitas 14:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC) This statement is very true.
3.
If you disagree with both proposals below, please sign your name below and state the reasons you disagree with the proposals.
1. Reject. WP:V states that reliable sources must be used. Suvorov for instance cannot be used as a reliable source since a) he is not a historian b) his work never went through PR. I agree on the fact that "brilliant" is a blurred notion (and I said so from the beginning), but as you won't quote a KKK guy to "justify" racism, you won't quote Suvorov to prove something. Why do both Western and Soviet historians happen to agree with each other? Surely there is a conspiracy... Sigh.. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and while I'm there, reject because Legionas should understand that "present all points of view" does not mean "present Suvorov's point of view and only his". -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
2. Wikipedia should not give coverage to pro-Nazi viewpoints. This project is not a Nazi propaganda machine. -- Ghirla -трёп- 06:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
3.
Thanks -- BrownHornet21 18:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Suvorov's theories are generally considered to be fringe science by professional historians. See Victor Suvorov#Criticism and Support for details. In short, the majority of scholars in the field do not accept Suvorov's claims. -- int19h 08:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Wikipedia is based on consensus.
I'd like to invite all the parties above to provide their thoughts and comments, especially Legionas. -- BrownHornet21 01:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe the most recent dispute focuses on whether it should be remarked that no documents other than Zhukov's own memoirs indicate that Zhukov had reservations regarding the immediate counter-offensive. Grafik replaced that sentence with the Mezhiritzky reference and that was removed by Legionas because he stated that the source was wholly based upon the memoirs. In my view, stating that no other documents prove that Zhukov was reluctant to sign the order is true, as I cannot see how Zhukov's doubts could have been preserved in any contemporary document. Grafik's reference was an analysis of those same memoirs, thus it cannot be viewed as proof of Zhukov's statement, and the information found in it can also be found in the Memoirs, thus the latter could just as well be used as a source there. I believe that is the reason why Legionas removed the source. Some users have remarked that Stalin was in charge, thus Zhukov could not possibly refuse the order. I don't believe that is truly what the discussion is about. Certainly, Stalin was the final judge, but the question is whose initiative the move was. Stalin always made his generals sign the orders so that he could not be held accountable. It is difficult to assess what ideas belonged to and where advocated by Stalin and which were pushed by his generals. For example, during Operation Uranus, the idea behind the plan belonged to Zhukov and Vasilevsky and they had to convince Stalin to act in this manner. In his memoirs Zhukov takes credit for the latter successful action but explains that he did not agree with the failed counter-offensive. I believe that there is insuficient evidence to permit us to evaluate these statements satisfactorily, thus all sides of the story have to be presented. TSO1D 02:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
My contributions are neutral and referenced, unlike the article in general which is mostly unreferenced collection of Soviet propaganda. As for "reversing referenced text", I remember few times reversing text where references provided did not support the wikipedian's claim. Problem is that opposing wikipedians sometimes add references to the sources which are not confirming text in article (e.g. case with "strategical brilliance". Many sources added simply did confirm this claim. Support of idea that Zhukov was good strategist is still a mess: Reference no.15 attributes words of Vasilevsky to Tony Le Tissier). As previously, in future I will keep ignoring accusations that I do not love Zhukov enough, or do not regard unconfirmed words of Zhukov uncritically. Let's present facts and documents, not opinions or propaganda. Topics on which Soviet machine of propaganda worked for decades require special efforts of neutral presentation. Words "History ...must use accurate, objective and sourced information" are so hypocritical when you compare my own well referenced changes with article in general, entire sections of which are unreferenced. Sigitas 13:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, okay, let's calm down. I don't read or speak Russian, so I can't verify any sources cited above. (Not sure if Babelfish will work, but that thing isn't perfect.) Unless someone can show me otherwise, I will presume everyone is correctly representing the content of the sources cited above. (Hey, that's what good faith is all about!) Let's take a timeout from calling each other out on accusations and whatnot and focus on the content of the article.
My first impression is that both sides appear to have valid arguments. I presume the sources cited in the article (historians or strategists or whoever consider Zhukov a brilliant strategist, a miltary genius, etc.) are correctly represented; if not please be as specific in possible when objecting to the source. The case can be made that Zhukov was a military genius; if I knew nothing about the guy other than he was the general who led the butt-kicking of the Germans all the way to Berlin at the end of World War II, it's hard to argue he's not a military genius. Perhaps other historians or strategists say he's not, that the results were the efforts of his subordinates and/or the incompetence of the other side. If so, I'd appreciate a source.
As far as the signing of directive no. 3, perhaps Zhukov did have reservations or objections about signing it. Perhaps he told no one else, except in his memoirs; that's a fairly smart position for someone serving under Stalin. Maybe he told others but they died in the War, died before Stalin, or just kept quiet; or maybe he told no one. Perhaps the appropriate middle ground is re-phrasing to state that "In his memoirs, Zhukov expressed regret about (or objected to) signing the directive, but some historians question whether Zhukov is simply expressing remorse years after the fact in an effort to sugarcoat his wartime deeds" or similar words.
So my first impression is: right now I'm kind of in the middle. Additional citation in support of either point of view showing that there is a consensus on either point would help. BrownHornet21 02:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that Sigitas/Legionas objected to one or more sources, e.g., "Problem is that opposing wikipedians sometimes add references to the sources which are not confirming text in article (e.g. case with "strategical brilliance". Many sources added simply did confirm this claim." Which ones did or did not confirm the claim? Out of the ones that do not support the claim, what do you claim those sources actually say? Not trying to call anyone out, just trying to get everyone to be as specific and detailed as possible. BrownHornet21 02:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
"Regrettably, today Zhukov is being criticized by some Russian authors for frequently resorting to massed frontal attacks". This is a clear kick to Suvorov and his unrecognized criticisms of Zhukov.
At this point I think I have to declare an impasse. Unless anyone objects, I will close the mediation in 48 hours. BrownHornet21 02:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Having received no response from any participant, I am closing the mediation. I still think the best solution is to present both viewpoints to achieve NPOV. If you folks can't resolve the situation I suggest you move it up the dispute resolution ladder. BrownHornet21 04:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Mediation Cabal | |
---|---|
![]() | |
Status | closed |
Request date | Unknown |
Mediator(s) | BrownHornet21 ( talk · contribs) |
[[Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases|]][[Category:Wikipedia medcab maintenance|]]
Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.
Hi, I am the BrownHornet and I have taken this case. Let's keep the discussion on this mediation page. I have a few ground rules:
Let me see if I can accurately summarize the scope of the dispute.
1. Legionas has made a number of edits to the Georgy Zhukov page, questioning the sources cited by other editors.
2. The most recent edits seems to debate whether P.Ya. Mezhiritzky, Reading Marshal Zhukov, (Philadelphia: Libas Consulting)(2002) is . . . a reliable source? I gather this from one of Legionas' edit summaries: "Mezhericky is not using any other documents than Zhukov's memoirs in this chapter. There are no documents confirming fairytales of Zhukov."
3. Legionas also challenged the following paragraph in mid June:
Legionas' explanations for removing this edit on at least four occasions was: "none of these historians suport opinion that Zhukov was good strategist," "references not supporting claims removed together with unfounded claims," "Irpen's referenced sources do not confirm his claims. His references shouldn't be here," and "rv irpen. No modern historian in his references says that Zhukov was good strategist, only marshall Vasilevsky says that, who is not a modern historian." There's more, but I stopped at four.
Have I accurately summarized the dispute (or the recent disputes, at least)? BrownHornet21 01:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is the Mediator's Proposal:
1. Since both sides cite verifiable sources, a suitable compromise would be to state that historians or strategists debate whether Zhukov was a brilliant military strategist or just the benefactor of having a much larger army. (Either that, or both sides agree to keep the issue out of the article.)
This is pretty much what TSO1D suggested initially, and after seeing each side's arguments I agree with the viewpoint that "all sides must be presented" to keep this aspect of the article in NPOV.
If you agree with the Proposal, please sign your name below. along with any thoughts or comments you may have.
1. TSO1D 00:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC) I agree with the proposal as I have from the beginning. TSO1D 00:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
2. Sigitas 14:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC) This statement is very true.
3.
If you disagree with both proposals below, please sign your name below and state the reasons you disagree with the proposals.
1. Reject. WP:V states that reliable sources must be used. Suvorov for instance cannot be used as a reliable source since a) he is not a historian b) his work never went through PR. I agree on the fact that "brilliant" is a blurred notion (and I said so from the beginning), but as you won't quote a KKK guy to "justify" racism, you won't quote Suvorov to prove something. Why do both Western and Soviet historians happen to agree with each other? Surely there is a conspiracy... Sigh.. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and while I'm there, reject because Legionas should understand that "present all points of view" does not mean "present Suvorov's point of view and only his". -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
2. Wikipedia should not give coverage to pro-Nazi viewpoints. This project is not a Nazi propaganda machine. -- Ghirla -трёп- 06:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
3.
Thanks -- BrownHornet21 18:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Suvorov's theories are generally considered to be fringe science by professional historians. See Victor Suvorov#Criticism and Support for details. In short, the majority of scholars in the field do not accept Suvorov's claims. -- int19h 08:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Wikipedia is based on consensus.
I'd like to invite all the parties above to provide their thoughts and comments, especially Legionas. -- BrownHornet21 01:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe the most recent dispute focuses on whether it should be remarked that no documents other than Zhukov's own memoirs indicate that Zhukov had reservations regarding the immediate counter-offensive. Grafik replaced that sentence with the Mezhiritzky reference and that was removed by Legionas because he stated that the source was wholly based upon the memoirs. In my view, stating that no other documents prove that Zhukov was reluctant to sign the order is true, as I cannot see how Zhukov's doubts could have been preserved in any contemporary document. Grafik's reference was an analysis of those same memoirs, thus it cannot be viewed as proof of Zhukov's statement, and the information found in it can also be found in the Memoirs, thus the latter could just as well be used as a source there. I believe that is the reason why Legionas removed the source. Some users have remarked that Stalin was in charge, thus Zhukov could not possibly refuse the order. I don't believe that is truly what the discussion is about. Certainly, Stalin was the final judge, but the question is whose initiative the move was. Stalin always made his generals sign the orders so that he could not be held accountable. It is difficult to assess what ideas belonged to and where advocated by Stalin and which were pushed by his generals. For example, during Operation Uranus, the idea behind the plan belonged to Zhukov and Vasilevsky and they had to convince Stalin to act in this manner. In his memoirs Zhukov takes credit for the latter successful action but explains that he did not agree with the failed counter-offensive. I believe that there is insuficient evidence to permit us to evaluate these statements satisfactorily, thus all sides of the story have to be presented. TSO1D 02:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
My contributions are neutral and referenced, unlike the article in general which is mostly unreferenced collection of Soviet propaganda. As for "reversing referenced text", I remember few times reversing text where references provided did not support the wikipedian's claim. Problem is that opposing wikipedians sometimes add references to the sources which are not confirming text in article (e.g. case with "strategical brilliance". Many sources added simply did confirm this claim. Support of idea that Zhukov was good strategist is still a mess: Reference no.15 attributes words of Vasilevsky to Tony Le Tissier). As previously, in future I will keep ignoring accusations that I do not love Zhukov enough, or do not regard unconfirmed words of Zhukov uncritically. Let's present facts and documents, not opinions or propaganda. Topics on which Soviet machine of propaganda worked for decades require special efforts of neutral presentation. Words "History ...must use accurate, objective and sourced information" are so hypocritical when you compare my own well referenced changes with article in general, entire sections of which are unreferenced. Sigitas 13:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, okay, let's calm down. I don't read or speak Russian, so I can't verify any sources cited above. (Not sure if Babelfish will work, but that thing isn't perfect.) Unless someone can show me otherwise, I will presume everyone is correctly representing the content of the sources cited above. (Hey, that's what good faith is all about!) Let's take a timeout from calling each other out on accusations and whatnot and focus on the content of the article.
My first impression is that both sides appear to have valid arguments. I presume the sources cited in the article (historians or strategists or whoever consider Zhukov a brilliant strategist, a miltary genius, etc.) are correctly represented; if not please be as specific in possible when objecting to the source. The case can be made that Zhukov was a military genius; if I knew nothing about the guy other than he was the general who led the butt-kicking of the Germans all the way to Berlin at the end of World War II, it's hard to argue he's not a military genius. Perhaps other historians or strategists say he's not, that the results were the efforts of his subordinates and/or the incompetence of the other side. If so, I'd appreciate a source.
As far as the signing of directive no. 3, perhaps Zhukov did have reservations or objections about signing it. Perhaps he told no one else, except in his memoirs; that's a fairly smart position for someone serving under Stalin. Maybe he told others but they died in the War, died before Stalin, or just kept quiet; or maybe he told no one. Perhaps the appropriate middle ground is re-phrasing to state that "In his memoirs, Zhukov expressed regret about (or objected to) signing the directive, but some historians question whether Zhukov is simply expressing remorse years after the fact in an effort to sugarcoat his wartime deeds" or similar words.
So my first impression is: right now I'm kind of in the middle. Additional citation in support of either point of view showing that there is a consensus on either point would help. BrownHornet21 02:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that Sigitas/Legionas objected to one or more sources, e.g., "Problem is that opposing wikipedians sometimes add references to the sources which are not confirming text in article (e.g. case with "strategical brilliance". Many sources added simply did confirm this claim." Which ones did or did not confirm the claim? Out of the ones that do not support the claim, what do you claim those sources actually say? Not trying to call anyone out, just trying to get everyone to be as specific and detailed as possible. BrownHornet21 02:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
"Regrettably, today Zhukov is being criticized by some Russian authors for frequently resorting to massed frontal attacks". This is a clear kick to Suvorov and his unrecognized criticisms of Zhukov.
At this point I think I have to declare an impasse. Unless anyone objects, I will close the mediation in 48 hours. BrownHornet21 02:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Having received no response from any participant, I am closing the mediation. I still think the best solution is to present both viewpoints to achieve NPOV. If you folks can't resolve the situation I suggest you move it up the dispute resolution ladder. BrownHornet21 04:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)