The article was removed 10:28, 6 November 2007.
Stuttering was promoted 2 1/2 years ago. On 28 December 2006, I posted a long list on the talk page of items that needed to be addressed, and other editors agreed. [1] Talk page commentary was recently added from Slp1 ( talk · contribs) (speech and language pathologist?) that "There are MOS issues as above, but it is also not a good summary of the state of knowledge in the field. There is a good deal of original research, (even COI) included, and important aspects are missing." I believe the COI may refer to the information about commercial anti-stuttering devices, sections which have grown in the article. Since I posted the need for review almost a year ago, little has been done outside of my edits. I prune an External link farm about once a month. There is an old referencing system that I don't understand and don't know how to repair (we need a script to update this to one ref style). There are three reference styles and an excess amount of trivia in the article (Stuttering in the Media). There is partial compliance with WP:MEDMOS (because I've been trying to clean it up). There are broad patches of uncited text and citation needed tags. The article appears abandoned and needs updating and cleaning up. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC) reply
- Referencing system. The Wikipedia help page for Links and references doesn't explain how to format a reference! If a standard referencing system is ever developed we should use it, but until then it's not worth the time to change to another, possibly non-standard referencing system.
- External articles. The article is 76 KB (roughly twenty to thirty pages). Wikipedia articles are supposed to be under 32 KB (roughly five to ten pages). The solution I suggested some time ago was to set up a stuttering Wikibook, and then put links from each section of the Wikipedia stuttering article to the stuttering Wikibook chapters. This was vetoed because external links aren't allowed in the body of the article. My current plan is to set up a series of Wikipedia articles on famous people who stutter, stuttering treatments for pre-school children, fluency shaping therapy, anti-stuttering medications, anti-stuttering devices, etc. I've completed the latter article and it's being peer-reviewed. Copying these articles over to Wikipedia should be easy.
- Treatments. I wrote the adult and childhood treatments sections. I agree that these need to be longer. I believe in evidence-based practice but when you try to write briefly about evidence-based practice you just get a list such as "treatment A is 76% effective, treatment B is 14% effective" and these efficacy statistics can be more misleading than helpful (as was noted). To describe an evidence-based treatment you need to describe all the details. Was it 76% effective in the short-term, or the long-term? In the speech clinic, or outside in stressful conversations? Etc. If we had longer articles about each treatment, then in the main article we could just have short descriptions without efficacy claims.
- Lidcombe. I intentionally didn't use "brand names" in the treatments section so the Lidcombe program is refered to as "direct therapy" in the pre-school treatments section. In a seperate article we could use "brand names," as I did in the anti-stuttering devices article.
- COI. Someone put a COI tag on the anti-stuttering devices section and I asked to have the section peer reviewed. The reviewer(s) said that everything was based on published studies in scientific journals and removed the COI tag.
- "the childhood treatment part, which contains unsourced original research and commentary as well as other problems as noted above." Please be more specific.
- "The sections that I consider especially weak are Incidence and Causes (the latter was definitely stronger in its former incarnation)." Please be more specific.-- TDKehoe 01:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC) reply
Hope that helps.-- Slp1 04:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC) reply
I converted the refs and recovered the lost refs. In addition to everything else mentioned, the prose needs serious attention, the WP:LEAD needs to be rewritten to a stand-along compelling summary, and there is both overlinking of common terms and underlinking of technical terms. Still lots of work to be done, but at least the referencing mechanism is in place. There is a lot of text cited to non-reliable sources; I removed what I knew to be obviously wrong or poorly cited to the talk page, but there is more to be done. There's also a mix of British and American spelling that needs to be sorted out. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC) reply
comment: I am feeling badly about this article and would like to do what I can to save it from demotion. I now have regular Internet access, but will have very limited time for the next week to 10 days, so wouldn't be able to do very much till then. I would be particularly motivated to do my part if others could work on the Stuttering and Society sections which don't really require any particular specialist knowledge or resources. Any volunteers?-- Slp1 22:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Tony (talk) 14:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment- I would request some patience for making a decision about demotion. I have been, and am willing to continue to try my best to get this up to standard, with SandyGeorgia's help. But as you know, these things takes time! I think a week or two should do it, and in the meantime, feedback and suggestions (or even better practical editing help) would be gratefully received. The lead is certainly on the agenda, but will be last once the rest of it is written.--
Slp1
00:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
reply
On second thoughts, I think it is better to Delist. I will continue to work on the article, but it would be better for me, and for the article, to work more slowly and without time pressure and consequent stress (ironically the latter are often seen as a possible cause of stuttering!). However, as above feedback, suggestions and help would be welcomed -- Slp1 13:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
The article was removed 10:28, 6 November 2007.
Stuttering was promoted 2 1/2 years ago. On 28 December 2006, I posted a long list on the talk page of items that needed to be addressed, and other editors agreed. [1] Talk page commentary was recently added from Slp1 ( talk · contribs) (speech and language pathologist?) that "There are MOS issues as above, but it is also not a good summary of the state of knowledge in the field. There is a good deal of original research, (even COI) included, and important aspects are missing." I believe the COI may refer to the information about commercial anti-stuttering devices, sections which have grown in the article. Since I posted the need for review almost a year ago, little has been done outside of my edits. I prune an External link farm about once a month. There is an old referencing system that I don't understand and don't know how to repair (we need a script to update this to one ref style). There are three reference styles and an excess amount of trivia in the article (Stuttering in the Media). There is partial compliance with WP:MEDMOS (because I've been trying to clean it up). There are broad patches of uncited text and citation needed tags. The article appears abandoned and needs updating and cleaning up. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC) reply
- Referencing system. The Wikipedia help page for Links and references doesn't explain how to format a reference! If a standard referencing system is ever developed we should use it, but until then it's not worth the time to change to another, possibly non-standard referencing system.
- External articles. The article is 76 KB (roughly twenty to thirty pages). Wikipedia articles are supposed to be under 32 KB (roughly five to ten pages). The solution I suggested some time ago was to set up a stuttering Wikibook, and then put links from each section of the Wikipedia stuttering article to the stuttering Wikibook chapters. This was vetoed because external links aren't allowed in the body of the article. My current plan is to set up a series of Wikipedia articles on famous people who stutter, stuttering treatments for pre-school children, fluency shaping therapy, anti-stuttering medications, anti-stuttering devices, etc. I've completed the latter article and it's being peer-reviewed. Copying these articles over to Wikipedia should be easy.
- Treatments. I wrote the adult and childhood treatments sections. I agree that these need to be longer. I believe in evidence-based practice but when you try to write briefly about evidence-based practice you just get a list such as "treatment A is 76% effective, treatment B is 14% effective" and these efficacy statistics can be more misleading than helpful (as was noted). To describe an evidence-based treatment you need to describe all the details. Was it 76% effective in the short-term, or the long-term? In the speech clinic, or outside in stressful conversations? Etc. If we had longer articles about each treatment, then in the main article we could just have short descriptions without efficacy claims.
- Lidcombe. I intentionally didn't use "brand names" in the treatments section so the Lidcombe program is refered to as "direct therapy" in the pre-school treatments section. In a seperate article we could use "brand names," as I did in the anti-stuttering devices article.
- COI. Someone put a COI tag on the anti-stuttering devices section and I asked to have the section peer reviewed. The reviewer(s) said that everything was based on published studies in scientific journals and removed the COI tag.
- "the childhood treatment part, which contains unsourced original research and commentary as well as other problems as noted above." Please be more specific.
- "The sections that I consider especially weak are Incidence and Causes (the latter was definitely stronger in its former incarnation)." Please be more specific.-- TDKehoe 01:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC) reply
Hope that helps.-- Slp1 04:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC) reply
I converted the refs and recovered the lost refs. In addition to everything else mentioned, the prose needs serious attention, the WP:LEAD needs to be rewritten to a stand-along compelling summary, and there is both overlinking of common terms and underlinking of technical terms. Still lots of work to be done, but at least the referencing mechanism is in place. There is a lot of text cited to non-reliable sources; I removed what I knew to be obviously wrong or poorly cited to the talk page, but there is more to be done. There's also a mix of British and American spelling that needs to be sorted out. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC) reply
comment: I am feeling badly about this article and would like to do what I can to save it from demotion. I now have regular Internet access, but will have very limited time for the next week to 10 days, so wouldn't be able to do very much till then. I would be particularly motivated to do my part if others could work on the Stuttering and Society sections which don't really require any particular specialist knowledge or resources. Any volunteers?-- Slp1 22:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Tony (talk) 14:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment- I would request some patience for making a decision about demotion. I have been, and am willing to continue to try my best to get this up to standard, with SandyGeorgia's help. But as you know, these things takes time! I think a week or two should do it, and in the meantime, feedback and suggestions (or even better practical editing help) would be gratefully received. The lead is certainly on the agenda, but will be last once the rest of it is written.--
Slp1
00:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
reply
On second thoughts, I think it is better to Delist. I will continue to work on the article, but it would be better for me, and for the article, to work more slowly and without time pressure and consequent stress (ironically the latter are often seen as a possible cause of stuttering!). However, as above feedback, suggestions and help would be welcomed -- Slp1 13:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply