If this nomination passes, I believe it will be the first
tinclad warship to be a featured article. The best documented of the whole lot, Marmora is probably best known for being present when the ironclad Cairo sent itself to the bottom of the Yazoo River by steaming over a couple naval mines, and then torching a couple settlements in Arkansas in the next year.
Hog FarmTalk05:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm wondering if the lead sentence could use an addition about the dates of service? The ship was built and put into service in 1862 and saw her last service/was declared surplus in 1865, is that worth mentioning in the lead sentence?
I've added the 1862-1865 dates into the first sentence
New sections/subsections (such as Yazoo City and later service) probably need a year listed in the first date mentioned; I found myself scrolling up to the section above to see what year we were talking about with On February 2, Marmora began a movement up the Yazoo River.
I've done this for all but two sections - "Late 1863" has the year in the name, so I don't think it's necessary to duplicate the date there, and I've left it off of the Chickasaw Bluff and Fort Hindman one because the prior section about the Cairo takes up less than two weeks of time, so the time context should still be pretty fresh
"USS Marmora was a sternwheel steamer that served in the Union Navy during the American Civil War from 1862 to 1865." maybe "USS Marmora was a sternwheel steamer that served in the Union Navy from 1862 to 1865, during the American Civil War. This stops the dates from hanging off the end of the sentence and also you drop the 1862 date again right afterwards.
Done
Do 12-pounder and similar require conversion or footnoting for metric equivalent?
Probably - I don't know if it's possible with the template, but I've asked at
Template talk:Convert. If it's not possible to do this via template, I'll try to go through and provide manual conversions for everything.
Hog FarmTalk02:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)reply
"In early 1863, Grant and Porter made a plan known as the Yazoo Pass expedition" This reads a bit oddly. Perhaps this is what the action has come to be called, but did Grant and Porter called their plan this?\
I understand you've given standard info on the characteristics that we see in FA ship articles, but can anything be said on living conditions or arrangements on her? Crew size?
It might be worth mentioning more clearly what the three crew received the Medal of Honor for, assuming Medal of Honor citations of that era are considered reliable.
Have added a bit here
"Extracts from her ship's log were later published more times in the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies than those of any other tinclad.[96]" Assuming this is significant, the question is why were extracts published more often? If they are particularly juicy, would it worth be including some bits in quote boxes?
Nothing particularly juice (that's
USS Romeo and the squadron commander talking crap about the ship captain in his official reports). I've added the one bit of significance Smith applies to this information.
I'm using flotilla in more of an informal sense of "collection of warships" rather than the more formal sense linked there - do you think it'd be better to link or simply come up with another word to use there?
"reached the site of the Confederate fort, and sent a party ashore to help destroy the fort" Perhaps "destroy it" to avoid repeating "fort"?
Done
"A modern view of the Mississippi River in the area of the former site of Eunice, Arkansas" Link places?
Done
" slowed by her boiler problems" Her problems makes it sound like it's a problem that has been mentioned earlier, but it seems it hasn't. Just say "slowed by boiler problems"?
Rephrased as suggested
"She then fired on the woods on the opposite side of the river." Why?
I don't think it's important and haven't had a chance to get to the library to consult Smith, so I've just removed the sentence
"that burned every structure within a mile of Eunice, including a warehouse and railroad depot." From reading the article about the town, perhaps worth mentioning it never recovered and remains uninhabited?
Not finding much explicitly stating that, but I've added a statement that Eunice was replaced w
"They began returning downriver on February 19, returning to Yazoo City on February 28" Could the double "returning" become less repetitive by for example saying "arriving" at last occurrence?
Support - looking good to me, maybe the flotilla term is a bit confusing if it doesn't mean what most people think it means, but you can deal with it how you like.
FunkMonk (
talk)
12:19, 7 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Harrias – Support
"..from C. Brennan, William Nelson, and James McDonnell." Is that last one definitely James McDonnell, and not the ship's captain James McDonald? It seems a mighty odd coincidence otherwise?f
This came up, in a way, in the ACR, as well. I suspect it may be, but the sources I've consulted consistently use McDonnell for the seller, and don't make a connection
"..these numbers were painted onto the pilothouses of the tinclads beginning in June 1863. She was commissioned into the Union Navy on October 21.." Putting the "October 21" date after the "June 1863" date makes it seem like she was commissioned in 1863, but according to the infobox it was 1862, so add the year for clarity.
Done
"Marmora left Carondelet for Cairo, Illinois on.." Needs a comma after "Illinois", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done, although my personal opinion is that GEOCOMMA is a load of crock
Per
MOS:TIME add a non-breaking space into all the times in the article.
I caught 5 of them, which I think is all
"..wanted to confirm or deny that information.." – This phrasing is pretty awkward; "wanted to verify that information" would be much more natural, but I wonder if you've changed it to avoid close para-phrasing/copyvio concerns?
The original text in the source is "Walke wanted confirmation of this". I think "wanted to verify that information" would be OK from a copyvio perspective, so I've switched to that
"Cairo heard men.." Ships can't hear, so this reads a little awkwardly to me.
Rephrased
"..reaching Coldwater, Mississippi two days later." Needs a comma after "Mississippi", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
"..prompting retribution from Marmora. Marmora fired on.." Rephrase to avoid finishing one sentence, and starting the next, with the same word.
Rephrased
"The morning of June 16, saw a combined.." No need for that comma.
Removed - I'd actually been requested to add this comma in the A-Class review
"..found the town of St. Charles, Arkansas deserted.." Conversely, this needs a comma after "Arkansas", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
"..moved up the Little Red, where she captured two Confederate gunboats, Tom Sugg and Kaskaskia, on that river." "on that river" at the end is redundant.
Done
"On September 19, Acting Master Elias Rees, who was commanding Marmora at that time, reported.." Get rid of "at that time".
Done
I'd move the location of Island No. 70 (in the Concordia Bend on the Mississippi River) from the note to the main body.
Done
"..in the Liverpool, Mississippi area." Add a comma after "Mississippi", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
"..Marmora and Exchange pushed on to Yazoo City, but came under.." I don't think that comma is needed.
Done
"..from the river town of Napoleon, Arkansas to Island No. 76." Another
MOS:GEOCOMMA needed.
Cone
"..while Gibson reported on September 13, that the vessel.." No comma needed.
Removed, another comma request from the ACR
"..was sent to Mound City, Illinois in June.."MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
That's the main body. I always look at the Lead after.
"Purchased for military service on September 17, she was converted into a tinclad warship." I would recommend rewriting this as "She was purchased for military service on September 17 and converted into a tinclad warship."
Done
"..but was not present when the fort surrendered on January 11 after the Battle of Fort Hindman." Given she wasn't there, I'd cut "after the Battle of Fort Hindman". It isn't important enough to include in the lead of this article, I don't think.
Porter organized his force They weren't organized before?
Source says "Porter assembled his ironclads and light drafts" and then discusses Porter putting Watson Smith in command, so I guess this was a general reorganization for the upcoming Ft. Hindman campaign
to best protect the troops "better" and delete the plural on troops.
Done
I'm seeing a lot of Marmora, and not a lot of she, the ship, the tinclad, etc. Gotta minimize the repetition.
I've rephrased 16 instances of "Marmora"
Beginning on August 8, Marmora moved up the White River, and found the town of St. Charles, Arkansas, deserted due to Union control of the river. This movement was as part of a flotilla commanded by Lieutenant George M. Bache. Combine these
Have merged these two sentences
had shifted to being stationed out of perhaps a simple "transferred"?
Done
and participated in repulsing assisted
Change made
Three seamen from Marmora received the Medal of Honor for their actions at Yazoo City: William J. Franks, Bartlett Laffey, and James Stoddard;[83] they had been part of the howitzer crew awkward
Five instances of "Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC", all for the "Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies". Yeah, these are old-ish, 1911-1921, but I did find this:
Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion, and it has an OCLC, so maybe you can find them.
Simons, Don R. (July 13, 2022). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing ISBN;
Christ, Mark K. (July 7, 2022). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing ISBN;
@
Lingzhi.Renascence: - thanks for the comments! I've added oclcs for all of the ORN cites. Bragg doesn't have an ISBN, but I've added an oclc (it's a federal government work, so I guess they didn't bother with assigning an ISBN). I don't know that Christ or Simons exist in print form, so there's not page numbers available for those.
Hog FarmTalk05:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)reply
From what I can tell, yes; it appears to be treated as a single longer work and a library would be more likely to have a copy of all volumes than a copy of a single volume.
Hog FarmTalk01:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
If this nomination passes, I believe it will be the first
tinclad warship to be a featured article. The best documented of the whole lot, Marmora is probably best known for being present when the ironclad Cairo sent itself to the bottom of the Yazoo River by steaming over a couple naval mines, and then torching a couple settlements in Arkansas in the next year.
Hog FarmTalk05:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm wondering if the lead sentence could use an addition about the dates of service? The ship was built and put into service in 1862 and saw her last service/was declared surplus in 1865, is that worth mentioning in the lead sentence?
I've added the 1862-1865 dates into the first sentence
New sections/subsections (such as Yazoo City and later service) probably need a year listed in the first date mentioned; I found myself scrolling up to the section above to see what year we were talking about with On February 2, Marmora began a movement up the Yazoo River.
I've done this for all but two sections - "Late 1863" has the year in the name, so I don't think it's necessary to duplicate the date there, and I've left it off of the Chickasaw Bluff and Fort Hindman one because the prior section about the Cairo takes up less than two weeks of time, so the time context should still be pretty fresh
"USS Marmora was a sternwheel steamer that served in the Union Navy during the American Civil War from 1862 to 1865." maybe "USS Marmora was a sternwheel steamer that served in the Union Navy from 1862 to 1865, during the American Civil War. This stops the dates from hanging off the end of the sentence and also you drop the 1862 date again right afterwards.
Done
Do 12-pounder and similar require conversion or footnoting for metric equivalent?
Probably - I don't know if it's possible with the template, but I've asked at
Template talk:Convert. If it's not possible to do this via template, I'll try to go through and provide manual conversions for everything.
Hog FarmTalk02:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)reply
"In early 1863, Grant and Porter made a plan known as the Yazoo Pass expedition" This reads a bit oddly. Perhaps this is what the action has come to be called, but did Grant and Porter called their plan this?\
I understand you've given standard info on the characteristics that we see in FA ship articles, but can anything be said on living conditions or arrangements on her? Crew size?
It might be worth mentioning more clearly what the three crew received the Medal of Honor for, assuming Medal of Honor citations of that era are considered reliable.
Have added a bit here
"Extracts from her ship's log were later published more times in the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies than those of any other tinclad.[96]" Assuming this is significant, the question is why were extracts published more often? If they are particularly juicy, would it worth be including some bits in quote boxes?
Nothing particularly juice (that's
USS Romeo and the squadron commander talking crap about the ship captain in his official reports). I've added the one bit of significance Smith applies to this information.
I'm using flotilla in more of an informal sense of "collection of warships" rather than the more formal sense linked there - do you think it'd be better to link or simply come up with another word to use there?
"reached the site of the Confederate fort, and sent a party ashore to help destroy the fort" Perhaps "destroy it" to avoid repeating "fort"?
Done
"A modern view of the Mississippi River in the area of the former site of Eunice, Arkansas" Link places?
Done
" slowed by her boiler problems" Her problems makes it sound like it's a problem that has been mentioned earlier, but it seems it hasn't. Just say "slowed by boiler problems"?
Rephrased as suggested
"She then fired on the woods on the opposite side of the river." Why?
I don't think it's important and haven't had a chance to get to the library to consult Smith, so I've just removed the sentence
"that burned every structure within a mile of Eunice, including a warehouse and railroad depot." From reading the article about the town, perhaps worth mentioning it never recovered and remains uninhabited?
Not finding much explicitly stating that, but I've added a statement that Eunice was replaced w
"They began returning downriver on February 19, returning to Yazoo City on February 28" Could the double "returning" become less repetitive by for example saying "arriving" at last occurrence?
Support - looking good to me, maybe the flotilla term is a bit confusing if it doesn't mean what most people think it means, but you can deal with it how you like.
FunkMonk (
talk)
12:19, 7 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Harrias – Support
"..from C. Brennan, William Nelson, and James McDonnell." Is that last one definitely James McDonnell, and not the ship's captain James McDonald? It seems a mighty odd coincidence otherwise?f
This came up, in a way, in the ACR, as well. I suspect it may be, but the sources I've consulted consistently use McDonnell for the seller, and don't make a connection
"..these numbers were painted onto the pilothouses of the tinclads beginning in June 1863. She was commissioned into the Union Navy on October 21.." Putting the "October 21" date after the "June 1863" date makes it seem like she was commissioned in 1863, but according to the infobox it was 1862, so add the year for clarity.
Done
"Marmora left Carondelet for Cairo, Illinois on.." Needs a comma after "Illinois", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done, although my personal opinion is that GEOCOMMA is a load of crock
Per
MOS:TIME add a non-breaking space into all the times in the article.
I caught 5 of them, which I think is all
"..wanted to confirm or deny that information.." – This phrasing is pretty awkward; "wanted to verify that information" would be much more natural, but I wonder if you've changed it to avoid close para-phrasing/copyvio concerns?
The original text in the source is "Walke wanted confirmation of this". I think "wanted to verify that information" would be OK from a copyvio perspective, so I've switched to that
"Cairo heard men.." Ships can't hear, so this reads a little awkwardly to me.
Rephrased
"..reaching Coldwater, Mississippi two days later." Needs a comma after "Mississippi", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
"..prompting retribution from Marmora. Marmora fired on.." Rephrase to avoid finishing one sentence, and starting the next, with the same word.
Rephrased
"The morning of June 16, saw a combined.." No need for that comma.
Removed - I'd actually been requested to add this comma in the A-Class review
"..found the town of St. Charles, Arkansas deserted.." Conversely, this needs a comma after "Arkansas", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
"..moved up the Little Red, where she captured two Confederate gunboats, Tom Sugg and Kaskaskia, on that river." "on that river" at the end is redundant.
Done
"On September 19, Acting Master Elias Rees, who was commanding Marmora at that time, reported.." Get rid of "at that time".
Done
I'd move the location of Island No. 70 (in the Concordia Bend on the Mississippi River) from the note to the main body.
Done
"..in the Liverpool, Mississippi area." Add a comma after "Mississippi", per
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
"..Marmora and Exchange pushed on to Yazoo City, but came under.." I don't think that comma is needed.
Done
"..from the river town of Napoleon, Arkansas to Island No. 76." Another
MOS:GEOCOMMA needed.
Cone
"..while Gibson reported on September 13, that the vessel.." No comma needed.
Removed, another comma request from the ACR
"..was sent to Mound City, Illinois in June.."MOS:GEOCOMMA.
Done
That's the main body. I always look at the Lead after.
"Purchased for military service on September 17, she was converted into a tinclad warship." I would recommend rewriting this as "She was purchased for military service on September 17 and converted into a tinclad warship."
Done
"..but was not present when the fort surrendered on January 11 after the Battle of Fort Hindman." Given she wasn't there, I'd cut "after the Battle of Fort Hindman". It isn't important enough to include in the lead of this article, I don't think.
Porter organized his force They weren't organized before?
Source says "Porter assembled his ironclads and light drafts" and then discusses Porter putting Watson Smith in command, so I guess this was a general reorganization for the upcoming Ft. Hindman campaign
to best protect the troops "better" and delete the plural on troops.
Done
I'm seeing a lot of Marmora, and not a lot of she, the ship, the tinclad, etc. Gotta minimize the repetition.
I've rephrased 16 instances of "Marmora"
Beginning on August 8, Marmora moved up the White River, and found the town of St. Charles, Arkansas, deserted due to Union control of the river. This movement was as part of a flotilla commanded by Lieutenant George M. Bache. Combine these
Have merged these two sentences
had shifted to being stationed out of perhaps a simple "transferred"?
Done
and participated in repulsing assisted
Change made
Three seamen from Marmora received the Medal of Honor for their actions at Yazoo City: William J. Franks, Bartlett Laffey, and James Stoddard;[83] they had been part of the howitzer crew awkward
Five instances of "Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC", all for the "Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies". Yeah, these are old-ish, 1911-1921, but I did find this:
Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion, and it has an OCLC, so maybe you can find them.
Simons, Don R. (July 13, 2022). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing ISBN;
Christ, Mark K. (July 7, 2022). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing ISBN;
@
Lingzhi.Renascence: - thanks for the comments! I've added oclcs for all of the ORN cites. Bragg doesn't have an ISBN, but I've added an oclc (it's a federal government work, so I guess they didn't bother with assigning an ISBN). I don't know that Christ or Simons exist in print form, so there's not page numbers available for those.
Hog FarmTalk05:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)reply
From what I can tell, yes; it appears to be treated as a single longer work and a library would be more likely to have a copy of all volumes than a copy of a single volume.
Hog FarmTalk01:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply