The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC) [1]. reply
Joseph Smith ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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About two months ago, I listed this article for FA candidacy. Many concerns were raised, specifically in regards to the article's POV and overcitation. Both have come a long way since then, and I believe it's ready for another shot at the FAC. I feel that it is one of the very highest quality articles available on Wikipedia, even surpassing many current FAs in terms of readability, context, abundance of citations, and neutrality on a controversial topic. Additionally, it is about a figure that's very important in the history of modern religious thought, and in American history, and as such, would be a great addition to have as an FA on Wikipedia.
(A note about the sourcing: Yes, I know that there are LOTS of citations on this article, but they are purposefully included next to statements that could be controversial to one side or the other so that they are not easily challenged by any passing POV warrior. There might still be a few that could be pruned down, I admit, but for the most part, they are where they are for a reason.)
(Also, a note on reaching NPOV: Joseph Smith was and is a very controversial person. Even if the POV of the article does not match your own personal POV on Smith and his life, I invite you to use this as the criteria to evaluate the article: "Raul's Razor – An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie." - Raul654.)
Thanks in advance for your time in reading and evaluating the article. Other editors and I have put in some good hours on this article, and we look forward to your comments (and hopefully support!)
Trevdna ( talk) 23:52, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply
First, I'd like to thank you for working on and nominating an article on such a complex and controversial figure. These are the most important articles to get right, and I commend you on your work.
Here are some of the article's strengths. It is remarkably complete: there are no places that seem glossed over, or where I feel important information has been neglected. It is admirably thorough in its sourcing: the reader has absolutely no question where the article's assertions come from (and I don't think it's over-cited, at least not in a major way); and further, I don't find any close-paraphrasing problems when combing through the sources. It's reasonably well organized: I don't see the need for major changes to the content of various subsections or supersections. And it is surprisingly NPOV, given the polarizing topic: there may be tweaks to improve the neutrality, but I don't see the sort of systemic issues one might expect.
But the article does have some unfortunate weaknesses. It really needs a thorough copy-editing. I see that it has been given three peer reviews, three GAN reviews, and two previous unsuccessful FACs, but there are still problems in nearly every section where the text is awkward, unclear, or worded in unfortunate ways. Related to this, many of the notes are poorly or inconsistently formatted, and some of the images are missing necessary information. I'll do what I can to help, but it will probably require the efforts of other reviewers willing to really dig in. I'll go section by section.
Many of the image issues were resolved in the last FAC, but these issues remain:
(All other images are legitimately free, with all required information present.)
I don't think it's a problem to have so many notes and references in an article like this, but they do need to be formatted correctly. Here are a few of the many minor problems I found.
Please go over the notes with a fine-toothed comb to check for consistency and typos.
I'm going to stop now. Please note that I have only proofread and commented on "Life", the first of five supersections of the article. All of the issues I've raised need to be dealt with, and someone needs to go through in a similar way and copy-edit the rest of the article, looking for ambiguous phrases or contradictions. If that is done, and all new issues are dealt with, I would be delighted to support. But at this point, I've spent more hours reviewing this than what I usually spend on two or three nominees, and I'm going to leave it to others. All the best, –
Quadell (
talk)
18:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
reply
I would have to oppose this if there's no information added regarding Smith's plagiarism of the Book of Mormon from several sources, including in large portion from Josiah Priest's The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (1825)--to which I'd refer you to the following sources: (1) Persuitte, David. Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon. (2nd Edition – Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company, 2000), 130, 155–172; Abanes, Richard. One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church. (New York: Thunder's Mouth Press, 2003), 68; and can refer you to additional sources. -- ColonelHenry ( talk) 21:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC) reply
Closing comment -- This has been open almost a month without approaching consensus to promote and, in any case, the nominator doesn't appear to have been around for a couple of weeks, so I'll be archiving it shortly. Per the FAC instructions, two weeks waiting time is required before nominating this or another article. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 07:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC) reply
The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC) [1]. reply
Joseph Smith ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Toolbox |
---|
About two months ago, I listed this article for FA candidacy. Many concerns were raised, specifically in regards to the article's POV and overcitation. Both have come a long way since then, and I believe it's ready for another shot at the FAC. I feel that it is one of the very highest quality articles available on Wikipedia, even surpassing many current FAs in terms of readability, context, abundance of citations, and neutrality on a controversial topic. Additionally, it is about a figure that's very important in the history of modern religious thought, and in American history, and as such, would be a great addition to have as an FA on Wikipedia.
(A note about the sourcing: Yes, I know that there are LOTS of citations on this article, but they are purposefully included next to statements that could be controversial to one side or the other so that they are not easily challenged by any passing POV warrior. There might still be a few that could be pruned down, I admit, but for the most part, they are where they are for a reason.)
(Also, a note on reaching NPOV: Joseph Smith was and is a very controversial person. Even if the POV of the article does not match your own personal POV on Smith and his life, I invite you to use this as the criteria to evaluate the article: "Raul's Razor – An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie." - Raul654.)
Thanks in advance for your time in reading and evaluating the article. Other editors and I have put in some good hours on this article, and we look forward to your comments (and hopefully support!)
Trevdna ( talk) 23:52, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply
First, I'd like to thank you for working on and nominating an article on such a complex and controversial figure. These are the most important articles to get right, and I commend you on your work.
Here are some of the article's strengths. It is remarkably complete: there are no places that seem glossed over, or where I feel important information has been neglected. It is admirably thorough in its sourcing: the reader has absolutely no question where the article's assertions come from (and I don't think it's over-cited, at least not in a major way); and further, I don't find any close-paraphrasing problems when combing through the sources. It's reasonably well organized: I don't see the need for major changes to the content of various subsections or supersections. And it is surprisingly NPOV, given the polarizing topic: there may be tweaks to improve the neutrality, but I don't see the sort of systemic issues one might expect.
But the article does have some unfortunate weaknesses. It really needs a thorough copy-editing. I see that it has been given three peer reviews, three GAN reviews, and two previous unsuccessful FACs, but there are still problems in nearly every section where the text is awkward, unclear, or worded in unfortunate ways. Related to this, many of the notes are poorly or inconsistently formatted, and some of the images are missing necessary information. I'll do what I can to help, but it will probably require the efforts of other reviewers willing to really dig in. I'll go section by section.
Many of the image issues were resolved in the last FAC, but these issues remain:
(All other images are legitimately free, with all required information present.)
I don't think it's a problem to have so many notes and references in an article like this, but they do need to be formatted correctly. Here are a few of the many minor problems I found.
Please go over the notes with a fine-toothed comb to check for consistency and typos.
I'm going to stop now. Please note that I have only proofread and commented on "Life", the first of five supersections of the article. All of the issues I've raised need to be dealt with, and someone needs to go through in a similar way and copy-edit the rest of the article, looking for ambiguous phrases or contradictions. If that is done, and all new issues are dealt with, I would be delighted to support. But at this point, I've spent more hours reviewing this than what I usually spend on two or three nominees, and I'm going to leave it to others. All the best, –
Quadell (
talk)
18:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
reply
I would have to oppose this if there's no information added regarding Smith's plagiarism of the Book of Mormon from several sources, including in large portion from Josiah Priest's The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (1825)--to which I'd refer you to the following sources: (1) Persuitte, David. Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon. (2nd Edition – Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company, 2000), 130, 155–172; Abanes, Richard. One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church. (New York: Thunder's Mouth Press, 2003), 68; and can refer you to additional sources. -- ColonelHenry ( talk) 21:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC) reply
Closing comment -- This has been open almost a month without approaching consensus to promote and, in any case, the nominator doesn't appear to have been around for a couple of weeks, so I'll be archiving it shortly. Per the FAC instructions, two weeks waiting time is required before nominating this or another article. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 07:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC) reply