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John Fekner

 Resolved Puppeteer and puppets are gone. Graywalls ( talk) 01:50, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

yes, thank you to all the kind admins who took care of that. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:07, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

It seems like most of Fekner related contents are added by the subject or those related to him through the accounts Daniellasuttoni and Incantation. The activity on those accounts are almost entirely limited to editing the John Fekner article and Fekner's Idioblast album. When they were editing other articles, they're usually related to category spamming with Fekner related contents or Fekner authored photos. example 1, example 2, example 3 Graywalls ( talk) 09:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Wow, good call on this one. The Fekner article is like a finely tuned memorial to every time he took a breath or ate an apple. I have trimmed 1000 bytes or so so far, and am trying to rid it of more of the banalities. The general problem is that he's notable, but just in a regular way and not in a Vito Acconci, Chris Burden or Louise Bourgeois kind of way. He's a very average to slightly above average artist. The connected articles are similarly awful. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 15:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I have notified the above users with COIN templates on their talk pages, per the policy. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 17:38, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I've removed overwhelming majority of John Fekner promoting contents that have been injected into other articles by these accounts. Graywalls ( talk) 07:20, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Fekner seems to say they are the article's subject here, offering to revoke donation of images they uploaded (see File:Fekqueens.jpg & File:FEKMYADwiki.jpg "John Fekner (c) 1980"). Bri.public ( talk) 22:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, I received a somewhat nasty email from user Fekner, signed by a highly similar sounding name. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 23:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Everything that I donated to Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons for over a decade was done with the best intentions and free for anyone to use. I worked with numerous editors, Wikipedia authority control for over a decade, Recently, both ThatMontrealIP& Graywalls removed text, research and all the images from the john fekner page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fekner ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

This was the letter that was sent to: ThatMontrealIP For the past thirteen years I've made numerous contribution of images to Wikimedia Commons for free use to everyone using Wikipedia as a resource. As a supporter of Wikipedia, I've made yearly donations. I've worked with Wikipedia editors on both the John Fekner /info/en/?search=John_Fekner and John Fekner City Squad Idioblast /info/en/?search=Idioblast_(album)

Now, I see all the major vicious editing of text and removing of images that both ThatMontrealIPand Graywalls Graywallshave done. It's sad, disheartening, discouraging to power of Wikipedia philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fekner ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Fekner, I see what you are saying but it's not as well-intentioned as you make it out to be. Participating in the editing of your own article, if you are indeed John Fekner, is basically promotion, and we try to avoid that here. See also WP:COI. John Fekner is certainly an important artist, but the article on him and the article on his album were very, very promotional. All that Graywalls and I did was to counter that promotional intent to reflect the existing sources. We are not here to promote John Fekner's accomplishments, but rather to note them in an encyclopedic way. If John Fekner needs to promote himself, he can do that with his own website. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:49, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@ ThatMontrealIP: What seems a little odd here is that he's been labeling the pictures so in a way seemingly contradictory to the license terms by using the © all reserved symbol and "Estate of John Fekner". Take a look at the license spectrum in the article Creative_Commons_license. © is in the most restrictive category. It seems to me that he CC-SA'd the pictures in order to be able to exhibit them and essentially maintain John Fekner as his profile without getting summarily removed but really intends on hanging onto control of how the photos are used by others. Why would he append copyright mark and "Estate of John Fekner" and express his intent to claw back the photos otherwise? Graywalls ( talk) 20:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
My take is the C symbol neither adds nor removes anything when they have already agreed to donate (share) content under the CC license. WP:COPYRIGHT states "You retain copyright to materials you contribute to Wikipedia, text and media. Copyright is never transferred to Wikipedia. You can later republish and relicense them in any way you like. However, you can never retract or alter the license for copies of materials that you place here". Bri.public ( talk) 21:12, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Bri.public on this. Uploading a file to Commons under a free license is not the same as an official copyright transfer agreement; basically, the uploader is only agreeing to freely release a particular version of the work. The licensing on that version remains in effect in perpetuity and anyone can continue to use that particular file under the terms of its license, but the copyright ownership or the original work remains with the original creator. This is one of the reasons WP:OTRS verification is often required for files licensed under a free license because the WP:CONSENT of the copyright holder needs to be clear. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 21:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Marchjuly and Bri.public: I think what you are saying is exactly right. You can't ever give away your copyright (although your estate might get it, or it might expire and the work enters public domain), but you can license it very freely which is almost the same and what happens when you agree to Commmons terms of use. Fekner always has the right to control licensing of his work ("copy right"), but if he uploaded it to Commons with a CC license, then he licensed it to all under those terms, irregardless if he wants to continue noting that he has copyright over his creative works by appending © to his works. The least restrictive license issued for the work at hand will be the one we should concern ourselves with. I am not so concerned though, as it is promotional editing. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 23:13, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
There seems to be an obvious COI which means he should refrain from directly editing the article as explained in WP:COIADVICE. Any content too promotional sounding remaining in the article should be cleaned up if possible or removed altogether if it simply doesn't belong. His COI however, doesn't prevent him from uploading files to Commons for use in the article; in fact, it's better for him to do so since it makes verifying WP:CONSENT easier. Now, uploading photos to Commons and then automatically expecting that they all be added to the article is where his COI comes into play again and that could be seen as self promotion (even if unintentional). So, the images could be discussed by others on the article talk page and then determined which if any could be re-added to strike a good balance between providing more information to the reader and avoiding WP:NOTGALLERY. Ideally, the infobox image should be for primary identification purposes of the subject; so, if Fekner uploads a selfie or other photo of himself which he holds the copyright on to Commons, such a photo should be fine for Wikipedia's purposes. One or two photos of representative works might also be OK as long as they are tied into the article content and not basically another "different" image showing the same style an technique, etc. Album covers, etc. probably are fine in stand-alone articles about the work in question and not really needed in the BLP article for simply "illustrative" purposes regardless of whether they're freely licensed, unless there is particularly one he received a lot of coverage in reliable sources for some reason; otherwise, hatnotes or links to those articles seems fine. Whatever images aren't being used in the article can also be linked to by using the Commons template mentioned above.
As for "clawing" back the photos, I don't that's possible; he can as an uploader request that they be deleted per c:COM:DR, but whether they ultimately are will depend on the Commons community and how much it wants to honor his request. If the files are deleted from Commons that would mean they'd be no longer available to use on Wikipedia, etc., but their licensing would still remain in effect and anyone who downloaded the photos and was using them under that particular licensing would probably be OK in continuing to do so. Anyway, we shouldn't really be discouraging him so that he wants to abandon Wikipedia/Commmons altogether by removing every single file he ever uploaded in good faith for use in the article as "self-promotion"; instead, we should be trying to explain how he can help us bring the article better in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines, particularly with the images. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 00:18, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't disagree with what you say, but it's better applied to good faith editors without COI. I see no need to pander to the needs of someone who is using us for promotional goals. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 01:20, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @ Graywalls: While there may be genuine conflict of interest concerns regarding the article, removing each and every image like you did here seems a bit excessive. It's not uncommon for articles about visual artists to contain images showing examples of the artist's work. Ideally, the article shouldn't just be one big image gallery of images, but one or two representative works which closely ties into the article content should be fine. Problems seem to arise when the files being used are non-free content because Wikpedia's non-free content use policy is quite restrictive, but most of the images used in the article seem to have been released by the copyright holder under a free license Wikipedia accepts and their licensing has been verified by WP:OTRS. The main infobox image should really be for primary identification purposes of the subject of the article, but some of the other images could be restored. Eliminate those which are being used in other article like album covers, etc. and focus on those which best tie in to the article content. One representaive example of each particular artistic style or technique is all that's really need, and the other images can be linked to using a template such as Template:Commons or another similar template. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • {{ Commons category}} is usually the template of choice Bri.public ( talk) 20:43, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @ Marchjuly:, I personally wouldn't just settle at "while there maybe conflict" when there's evidence that the subjective wrote the article himself and presented it in the way as he likes it and Fekner's name and Fekner authored contents were strategically seeded into articles in subject matter of his interest likely under his full control. Since those close to the subject chose every element of the article, the photos chosen represent how he wanted them presented in relation to prose. Therefore, it obstructs neutrality. I think it's fair game that photos were completely buffed out for now from the article. If others find him notable enough, they'll look around, find the pictures and reinsert them at their editorial discretion. Autobiography creation is highly discouraged. Concerning adding his own materials into other articles, I think this issue runs parallel with the dispute about Michael Simkovic that happens to be being discussed right under this dispute. Graywalls ( talk) 09:10, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

For those interested

There is a discussion about the Huff-Po article and paid editing at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#HuffPost article on WP COI editing. Another was started at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Whitewashing? after-the-fact but now points to the AN discussion. Atsme Talk 📧 12:12, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

The noticeboard discussion also contains proposals related to paid editing in general. See "Suggestions and proposals related to paid editing" and "Prohibition on all paid editing" for details. —  Newslinger  talk 02:58, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Alessio Pasquinelli

More brand skipped

I don't like to use external source, but the user keen on maintaining the list of sponsored teams in the sport wear articles to include "current" teams only (removing the expired sponsorship without really providing any reason) and without disclosing his source to verify . Googling his name "Alessio Pasquinelli" in linkedin shown his past position as "SPONSORSHIPS BROKER CONSULTANT", "SPONSORSHIPS MANAGER" and current position as "Pasquinelli Work Advertising". Matthew hk ( talk) 11:25, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Scott Shaw

This is from an ancient SPI from 2009 Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Alex West/Archive that was never cleaned up after. I found it today via this post on r/wikipedia (reddit). Most of these articles are films that Scott Shaw (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) had an involvement in that do not appear to meet WP:NFILM. I haven't been able to determine whether Shaw meets WP:CREATIVE.

I'm also concerned that Chinanski ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a still-active sock of the same master. The account was created at a similar time and has edited many of the same articles: [1]. SmartSE ( talk) 16:53, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft:GPV International A/S

Draft:GPV International A/S ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
CCS Group ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Erolatccsgroup ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)


User’s only edits were first acquiring Wikipedia experience, then on CCS Group. Now that CCS Group has been acquired by GPV International, their edits are intended to create an article about GPV International. My inquiry about conflict of interest was not answered, but the following inquiry on my talk page is written in the first person plural and is typical of corporate editing: s://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Robert_McClenon&type=revision&diff=89 Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

To start, looks like a violation of the shared username policy. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 18:38, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Nope. It is perfectly ok to use <name> at <organization> as that clearly represents an individual. That being said, this is pretty clearly WP:PAID. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:13, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Ah yes, I was reading CCS group as a user account. I corrected the order above. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 00:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
And as they seemed to completely either ignore or not understand attempt to clarify how this works (they actually had to change their username once already and were warned about COI 2 years ago) I've issued an indef block. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:21, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Not to mention the edit-warring to remove the COI tag from the article. Anyway, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CCS Group. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 21:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

UPE cluster

articles

See Special:Diff/891222663. - Bri.public ( talk) 20:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

SPI pending: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gghenn2. MER-C 20:48, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Listing blocked Holbornassets who created Holborn Assets Limited and was blocked 4 August 2015. Not saying he's part of the current sockfarm.
Expecting to see the creator of City Express Money Transfer turn up in the SPI. - Bri.public ( talk) 22:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Orbitless drives COI

There is a person named Leo Stocco, who is apparently the CTO and Founder of Orbitless_drives, he is also an author of some of the papers mentioned as sources in the article. Now The problem is in the user page of the wiki user, please have a look. Daiyusha ( talk) 06:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, there is definitely a COI. I've sent the article to AFD. SmartSE ( talk) 09:32, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Udit Raj

Editor who has stated that he is the subject of the article has completely rewritten it in a non-neutral way. Reverted with explanation and reinstated : Bhunacat10 (talk), 08:24, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I cleaned it up a bit (removed improper bold, added proper sections). It seems like it may have been adapted from an essay, given the section headings It had previously. It's far too dense for me to figure out what is going on. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 18:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
there is a bit of an edit war going on at this page, between the eponymous editor and a number of good faith editors. I've warned Dr.uditraj at his talk page, but he seems to be headed for a block. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 16:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Rudy Takala

I'm requesting independent review of this BLP article, which contains a great deal of apparently unsourced information.

The three SPA editors are all inactive. Together, they've written 90% of the current content. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:41, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Mathieu Chantelois

I think User:Blipblip88 is Mathieu himself.

In Aug 2018 Mathieu sanitizes his page under his own name: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Mathieu_Chantelois&type=revision&diff=853283903&oldid=845679634

It's reverted, for COI reasons. Almost immediately after, and then continuously, we see edits from User:Blipblip88 doing nothing but positive edits.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mathieu_Chantelois.jpg is a selfie, uploaded by Blipblip88.

All of his edits are on Mathieu's article. /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/Blipblip88

Exilewhat ( talk) 03:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Jonathan Mover

Bonzofreak is a single-purpose account, with all 12 years of his edits closely connected to the rock drummer Jonathan Mover. The problem here is that Bonzofreak has been repeatedly adding promotional stuff to the Mover biography, especially stuff about Mover's minor business ventures, about which nothing has been written in the press. [2] [3] [4] Peacock wording is frequently inserted, such as "fantastic bassist" [5] and "drummer extraordinaire". [6] Bonzofreak has been warned repeatedly against such promotion but has never used a talk page, and has never communicated with other editors. Recently he has engaged in a slow motion edit war to keep promotional text in the Mover biography, reverted by myself and Rodericksilly. Something needs to be done to get his attention and stop the disruption. Binksternet ( talk) 05:03, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

  • @ Binksternet: Any edit warring or other disruptive behavior (including an unwillngness to communicate with others) probably would be better off dealt with at WP:ANI or WP:AN3. The lead and the magazine section were each just big paragraphs of name dropping and other unsourced claims, so I went and removed most of that, but the article still has some sourcing problems per WP:BLPSOURCES. Content about Mover's involvement with Drumhead can likely be re-added if supported by citations to reliable secondary sources and written in a more encyclopedic tone, but simply linking to the magazine's homepage is not going to be good enough per WP:RSCONTEXT and WP:BLPSELFPUB, especally since the magazine doesn't appear to be Wikipedia notable in it's own right and simply redirects to the article about Mover.
    FWIW, Bonzofreak does seem to edit in spurts which might explain the lack of interaction with other editors. They seem to make a bunch of edits, disappear for awhile, and then come back a few months later. There's also no record of them making any article talk posts or user talk page posts in twelve years of editing which could be seen a pretty good indication of WP:NOTHERE more than anything else. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 05:51, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Lack of interaction with other users is difficult to explain given that both Binskernet and I have left messages on his Talk page and he has continued to make the same edits. He's just not interested in dialogue. Rodericksilly ( talk) 06:02, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
      • I agree that no history of interacting with others is not a good indication of WP:HERE and this might be something worth discussing at ANI; however, not interacting with others isn't really something which can be dealt with here at COIN. There's already a {{ Connected contributor}} template added to the article's talk page which includes a link to what might be seen as a possible COI declaration ( "he gave me the license...") made way back in December 2007, but WP:DISCLOSE is not mandatory except for WP:PAID. The editor was advised about COI back in January 2019 after a brief editing spurt and then warned yesterday about edit warring. If they continue on as before without any response, then ANI or AN3 are probably better ways than COIN to try and stop the disruption. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 06:48, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Pride Northwest

I could nominate it for AfD, but there's a concern with the number of obvious company associated accounts used. Significant amount of contents as it remains now originated from the account PNWStaff and the other three are basically single purpose accounts. CLMurphy1 describes himself as an event promoter and the name he provided himself comes back as management staff for the org. Debraporta comes up as executive director in Google. Please see article talk page for details. Following the duck quack I can reasonably suspect Mel45's exclusive participation on this article indicates it too is a related editor. How should it go forward? Graywalls ( talk) 06:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Related: diff --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:15, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Etherweave

Etherweave is a business offering "services include marketing strategy, Web design and development, copywriting, editorial services, integrated e-mail campaigns and a range of other services" [7]. All of the authors listed above are or were clients of theirs. duffbeerforme ( talk) 11:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Outside In (organization)


  • The user just updated his user page on 6 Aug 2006 which included inserting "Clinic Shifts at Outside In and NHC 6 Aug 2006
  • Series of edits involving substantial contents change between 26 May 2011 and 1 June 2011 between accounts Travis.Thurston, Oivolunteer and IP 98.142.37.50 that occurred around here. To be on the safe side of WP:OUTING policy, I would not elaborate the data found however to those familiar, there's a sufficient indication to show that signed edit occurred at the organization. The user name OIVolunteer is quite obvious and self-explanatory.
  • Edits by 209.63.132.196 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on 19 Feb 2016, and at the time of occurrence, there's a good likelihood of correlation between the organization and the edit source. Didn't post notice on that IP's talk, because there's a newer edit to it and there's likely no correlation between organization and that IP now. diff
  • Relatively recent edit by JayHedegard on 12 Oct 2018. For privacy policy, specifics are omitted but this edit appears to have been done for the organization.

An editor who is currently engaged with editing expressed discontent with the COI tag remaining on the page and wants it gone and he's asking what contents should be changed for the tag to go away. I'm uncertain about the accepted norm here regarding how long they should remain on. I expressed my view that my concern isn't necessarily the sourcing. My concern is that since the article was built from the ground up by someone likely acting on behalf of the organization likely with substantial input and possibly under the direction and supervision of the organization, the outline of categories and contents on which contents are expanded upon may contain deeply entrenched bias that tends to define what contents to include and not include. A comment was inserted by yet another IP editor relating to unionization. This content was removed by an account which I have a good reason to believe it is related to the organization. That account has only been used for edits relating to this organization and the edit summary for removing unionization was that it's "inaccurate". This occurred within the last 6 months. I have researched the contents that was removed and the information appears to be accurate. I believe that current COI still exists after observing that edit on the union matter that seems to indicate PR engagement by organization to manage contents about the organization. I think resolving it is a little more than complicated than simply improving contents. As long as the outline of the original apge creation remains, there's likely an implicit bias that moderates what contents get built up or contents remaining that would not have been entered without any input from involved editors. The COI concern will remain as long as organization continues to monitor and actively engage in contents management. Graywalls ( talk) 17:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I attempted to remove some of the primary sourcing, among other edits, but my work was reverted by Graywalls. I think this should just be reduced to an appropriate stub, if NPOV is a concern. Let's not make this more work than needed. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 17:57, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you care so much now to clear the tag expeditiously but didn't even bat an eye about the COI editing itself. Graywalls ( talk) 17:06, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Undisclosed COI editing can be concerning, but I'm more focused on getting the current article's contents Wikipedia-compliant, instead of focusing who added what and when. I'd like to see editors remove problematic content so the tag can be removed, what's wrong with that? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
These two points in time makes a great example of a deeply entrenched bias. This content was originally inserted, unsourced, from the organization's IP. initially. The statement became referenced through sources coalescing around the statement inserted by the organization's IP. Despite having the appearance of being well sourced, bias was introduced from someone at the organization inserting what wants to be presented in the article on them. Suspected edits originating at the organization or accounts associated with it occurred in August 2006, Jay-June 2011, Feb 2016 and most recently (that I am aware of) in October 2018. I argue that this is one of the articles that needs to be on a long term watch and it's not just a matter of neutralizing it now and be done with due to sufficient evidence of chronic undisclosed, direct PR engagement from the organization. The most recent suspected COI editor responded and commented he was not compensated or was directed by the organization; although evidence supports the account was essentially SPA, and other edits on this organization clearly shows there's a pattern of edits being made to article about them from their IP. Graywalls ( talk) 17:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't have an objection with this specific but it's interesting that this content whose inclusion decision was made by an Outside In connected contributor was brought back up soon after it was removed. When the article subject takes the initiative to insert contents, contents can coagulate around the outline or contents left in edit history. Analogously, I tore off the pavement that wasn't supposed to be put in the first place. It was paved, but paving followed the shadows left behind, thus retaining the planning bias (caused by connected contributor that chose where to freshly lay the roads). Hopefully this helps explain the concern I have expressed about the issue of deep entrenched COI that becomes woven into the fabric of an article. Graywalls ( talk) 12:56, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Reply from JayHedegard

As it appears on his talk page: Graywalls ( talk) 12:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello Drm310. Sorry, I'm not sure if I am replying to this correctly. I have not been compensated in any way for the edits I made to the Outside In page nor was I directed to do so by the organization. Thanks. Jay

Venous leak

Despite Orangelioncat has declared conflicts of interests that they are associated with Geng Long Hsu, Orangelioncat has been inserting links to Geng Long Hsu's article on the Encyclopedia of Reproduction into on assertions that are not supported by the sources at all. For example, "Vascular Surgery for Erectile Dysfunction" is cited in Venous leak three times yet none of the assertions can be supported by it. Considering that Orangelioncat has prominently mentioned Hsu's contribution that does not exist in the source (e.g. [8], [9]), I found it difficult to believe that those edits are to "disseminate the verifiable knowledge". Mys_721tx ( talk) 04:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

The COI has also been noted by User:Flyer22 Reborn in January. - Mys_721tx ( talk) 04:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Orangelioncat has a clear COI. And I alerted WP:Med to it. Doc James edited the Venous leak article a bit after I noted the COI stuff. I've been over matters with Orangelioncat on my talk page. But today, I see that the editor is still spamming penile articles with Geng Long Hsu material and that there is a Genglonghsu ( talk · contribs) account adding Geng Long Hsu material. I can be seen reverting that account here, for example, stating "Revert WP:COI material. See User talk:Flyer22 Reborn#Penile articles. Get it published in independent sources first." I noted on my talk page that the "os analog" aspect typically isn't mentioned in the human penis literature. I wanted to point out that anatomy literature can differ and we need to take care in such cases. When something is only or mostly being stated by one researcher, it is likely best to use WP:In-text attribution and note that it's that researcher (or that researcher and his group) stating that. It's that case for other subjects as well, not just anatomy. This is where the WP:Due weight policy is useful. I told Orangelioncat that I wouldn't object to Orangelioncat adding that Long Hsu (or someone else) states so and so about the os analog. I also noted that, as for Long Hsu's expertise, I do see that in the Wikipedia article Orangelioncat created on him, it states that he claimed to "know the penis more than anyone else in the world." He can claim that, but we shouldn't just go by his word on penile matters. The rest of the literature should be in agreement with him if we are to take everything he states as fact. Otherwise, if he states something that conflicts with the rest of the literature, we should give the matter in-text attribution. I don't like going by single studies for anything. Studies with results that that have been replicated are more reliable. I also pointed Orangelioncat to WP:MEDRS. A source can be WP:MEDRS-compliant and still out of step with what the literature generally reports. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Edits mentioned are definitely UNDUE, and Geng Long Hsu certainly has a COI for citing their own work. Whether Orangelioncat has a close enough connection to Geng Long Hsu to create a COI isn't clear to me (but if not, non-COI protocols should be adequate AFAIK). -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 09:05, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Mys_721tx

Yes, as stated in my conversation with Flyer22 Reborn, I respect the consensus and rules in the Wiki community. It's my pleasure to engage in this discussion. On my part, the extent of COI, although minor, is present, and it's stated at the beginning.

Here, I do try to use as many secondary sources as possible, and that's why the Encyclopedia of Reproduction is applied. Otherwise, there are indeed some news articles that can be used, but some of them need to be translated. The aim is definitely not to spam these articles. Those references, directly or indirectly, serve as support to the statements. In examination over the comments made here, I would re-visit and modify in accordance with what's considered appropriate.

In regard to the questioning over the belief to distribute "verifiable knowledge," I wish to talk a bit more about the images themselves that were used. Of course, I also make edits on other topics, but with respect to GL and penile anatomy, the verifiable knowledge is the presence of more than the DDV between the Buck's and the tunica albuginea, and the elaboration of the 3-D structure of the tunica albuginea.

The associated diagram was published long before the Encyclopedia of Reproduction, although a version of it was shared with the publisher. The right to the images is released by the right-holder to the Wiki Commons, not any other third-party.

Flyer22 Reborn stated prior to my involvement in the project that there's a lack of information on the male reproductive system, and I am glad to have made some contribution.

Orangelioncat ( talk) 08:18, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I noticed some images uploaded by User:Genglonghsu are marked for deletion. For right issue with respect to the images, consider this:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2164/jandrol.109.008532 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289991483_Penile_venous_surgery_for_treating_erectile_dysfunction_Past_present_and_future_perspectives_with_regard_to_new_insights_in_venous_anatomy

Four years ago, the right to a similar version of the image was already released under CC, and even prior to that, the original creator of the image gave permission for publication in a journal. Mys_721tx, anatomical knowledge is verifiable.

Orangelioncat ( talk) 09:55, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Citing the source on assertions that cannot be supported by the source is extremely inappropriate. Unless the assertion is very generic, there will not be a source that magically supports all existing claims in an article. Furthermore, Journal of Andrology is a subscription-based journal and upon publication the authors have transferred copyright to the American Society of Andrology. You cannot release figures under CC license when it is not yours anymore. - Mys_721tx ( talk) 13:30, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Admin review

Okay so we are looking at this edit by User:Orangelioncat. [10]

They cited this source to support the following text:

"Common complaints include a chronic soft erection insufficient for sexual intercourse, position-dependent erectile rigidity, difficulty achieving erections, difficulty maintaining erections without constant manual stimulation, loss of penile length and girth, and a soft glans of the penis during erection that is not fully engorged."

Orange can you provide below the exact text within the publication that you feel supports this? Best Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:03, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

The text should come from p.390 in the chapter "Male Reproductive Tract - Erection Abnormality." That could be found here: [11]- "...symptoms include insufficient rigidity, early detumescence, loss of morning erection, position dependent impotence, soft glans syndrome and gradual onset of early ejaculation." I do agree that citation needs to be precise. The medref box states that more medical references are needed, and I made my edits under the impression that the more the better without citing the exact texts and sources. My mistake. Thank you for point it out.
Orangelioncat ( talk) 17:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Orangelioncat, I want to know if you understand what I mean by being cautious of something that is only or mostly being stated by one researcher and that "we shouldn't just go by his word on penile matters," and "if he states something that conflicts with the rest of the literature, we should give the matter in-text attribution." WP:MEDRS is not the only thing to follow; so is WP:Due weight. Like I noted on my talk page to you, we, for example, give different reports on the urogenital diaphragm in the Urogenital diaphragm article because the literature is not consistent on it. We mention the dispute regarding the limbic system in the Limbic system article. I was concerned that you were prioritizing Long Hsu's and his colleagues' work over what the literature generally states. And I see that you and the Genglonghsu account are doing just that. You are only concerned with adding work and images by that researcher and his team. So you are definitely a WP:Single purpose account. You are not looking at what the rest of the literature might state on the matter. For example, what other source or sources state what Doc James cited above? If you don't see any other source stating that, it is best to directly attribute that text to the specific researcher(s) you are citing. And by that, I mean WP:In-text attribution. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 00:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, Doc James, Mys_721tx,

I receive no financial or academic benefit from doing all these. Since my first edit's (which was one or two months ago, the issue of COI was already concluded), my edits were reactive in regard to the penile articles and GL. The GL page was inserted with an orphan tag, then considering your comment on the In-Text attribution, I then applied that policy to the article, by making links to that page. Also, the med ref box stated that more reference was needed. Then, I tried to put the the references (although some of them turned out to be inaccurate). Not just GL, I have also made citation on Culley C Carson's prosthesis article.

I will stop my editing on the penile articles for now, but I do demand fairness and respect, especially to those (including myself) new to Wikipedia editing. And Flyer22 Reborn: yes, your in-text attribution came from the issue of the "os analog." Albeit that it really just refers to the hard structure inside the glans, and which contributes to the rigidity and shape of an erect penis. It's not a theory but just a fact. If, like many other literature states, penile erection only relies on only the erectile tissue, sexual intercourse would not have been achieved so easily - the pointed and relatively hard structure/ the end of the distal ligament is important, and that has a great resemblance to the os penis (found in most other species but not us). Why make the conveyance of such a concept so difficult? Putting this consensus thing aside, Flyer22 Reborn, I am contributing to the content in this area, and a lack of that was supposed to be an issue to resolve?

Of the copy-right issue, I am aware that GL has declared on his website that all those images are licensed under CC. Just scroll down to the the very end of the page: [12].

As far as I know, the concept of the erection-related veins was first reported in a world meeting in Japan, and it's done by GL. The identification of those veins was mentioned in an Asian journal that no longer existed (called the New Taipei something), but that journal did not have all those detailed diagrams from GL's website. Also, the corresponding author knew little about the research, and became that because of his position in the institute; which is really not the point here. There was even fabrication on the date of reception.

I do not know if GL and others signed the right-release agreement to that ghost publisher. It's gone now anyway, so who does the right to that knowledge belong? If one can sort this out, I'm sure it'd be easier to know where to ask for permission if we are to disseminate this knowledge. If Hsu Androlgy can put all those images on their website and claims that their rights are released under CC, perhaps they already had it sorted out? If there is any issue, should you not direct the question to them, but not to this meow meow.

The Andrology article is an outcome report on the surgery, but not the anatomical concept, and the later mentioned article is not the original article/speech on the anatomical concept, either. With the open access journal (and for many other journals now), right is not as strict a matter, as sharing can be done when permission is granted, or when significant modification is done on an image.

I will stay away on the penile matter and GL, but keep an eye on how things develop.

Thanks so much.

Orangelioncat ( talk) 16:38, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Bridge Back to Life

Hello. Please refer to [13] and [14]. This is a recreation of a salted article under a different name. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 00:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I cut it from 17K to 4.3K. I am not really sure what is goign on there-- the article was a coatrack to discredit the DR. mentioned, or a promotional vehicle? I would have nominated it for Afd, but it has a few good refs. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 00:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Sent to AFD. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 04:41, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Hello. Seeing is believing. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 02:36, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Silverback Bikes

Hello. The user said they had a COI here. They were asked to formally disclose it here. The draft was rejected twice. And the article has now been created twice. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 00:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

FOI Online Awards

I looked up the organization giving out these awards, apparently its an anonymous organization that conducts anonymous polls and gives the awards,(stated on their site). There is almost no mention of the organization at all, except for a few sketchy sites . The article was AfD'ed and deleted 3 years ago, the creator of the article or someone related to it was particularly angry about deleting it(mentioned in the afd discussion).

The issue with the article is that many prominent celebs and some movie articles have this award listed in their awards section, some of them being added by people who edited FOI awards articles. It might be better if we remove all such occurrences of this non-notable award. Daiyusha ( talk) 16:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. I'll start deleting removing it from those pages. Might take a while. BubbaJoe123456 ( talk) 21:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

It might be helpful to treat this as possible spamming as well. In that regard, I'll list other editors that have added it as I help with cleanup. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@ Ronz:,@ BubbaJoe123456: If you intend to start on removing this spam, please look for the text "FOI" and "Films of India Online" when searching for it. Thanks for the response Daiyusha ( talk) 07:00, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Daiyusha: Thanks for the heads-up. I've been going through, think I'm over halfway done. FYI, should also look for "Films of India Online." Just doing FOI as a search term picks up a lot of cruft (Freedom of Information, mainly), but doing "FOI Online" works well. BubbaJoe123456 ( talk) 11:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

As an aside, are "News18 Reel Movie Awards" and "Bollywood Film Journalists Awards" similar? -- Ronz ( talk) 16:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

  • To help find them foionlineawards.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.foionlineawards.com -- Ronz ( talk) 15:57, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • This is disgusting. Like tell me, who are you people to decide whether its notable or not? Your job is to gather facts, not judge notability. Almost all of the film-industry accepted their results with happiness. First, you deleted the article three years ago saying "If known actors receive awards, it doesn't make the award known." They accepted it and moved on. Now you are deleting it from the Wikepedia page of actors an artists itself. This is the problem with accolades and their unfairness in industry, for India especially. Those who actually deserve and get some due, you take it away from them. When the actors themselves have accepted these awards, who gives you the right to remove it from the their achievement logs? You bunch of computer savy coders are going to decide what was a good achievement, and what not? May be, FOI would now need more time to get a public name, but this move won't hurt their intention, they'll continue with it anyway. Deleting their separate article was fair, but this movement of removing their traces form actors log is wrong to the artists itself. You are hurting the artist by removing a recognition they earned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A21F:9C4B:4051:C28:2E84:7360 ( talk) 17:53, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia editors are tasked with assessing whether content is relevant enough for Wikipedia's purposes to be mentioned in an article as well as whether something is Wikipedia notable enough for an article to be created about it. An editor's job is not to gather facts like a reporter, but only to seek out article content which accurately reflects what reliable sources (preferably independent and secondary) are saying/writing about something and then try to figure out a way to incorporate this content into the article in neutrally worded and balanced manner. When there are disagreements over things such as this, editors then follow Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and try to establish a consensus one way or another. You're more than welcome to participate in that discussion, but you'd be better off trying to show how mentioning the FOI awards is in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines than commenting on other editors. Moreover, the awards not being mentioned in actor WP:BLPs is not going to mean that the actor didn't receive the award and it won't harm the actor's career simply because the purpose of a Wikipedia article is not to promote the actor's career or to be a alternative profile page for the actor in the first place. The actor is free to post whatever they want about themselves or promote themselves however they like on their own personal websites or social media pages, etc., and FOI is free to promote the awards it gives out on its own websites and social media accounts, etc. regardless of whether any of this information is mentioned on Wikipedia. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 23:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
      • How is the Official website not a reliable source? And how is this even a case of conflict of interest? References are not made to support FOI's article, they are referenced to support facts on actors page. And someone above talks, there is no organisation named on the website, forgetting FOI Online Awards itself is the organisation (read their About us). NO doubt Wikipedia itself isn't a notable source for information, thanks to those illiterate editors. Do whatever you feel like in your world. I won't interfere anymore. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:4051:C28:2E84:7360 ( talk) 03:15, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
        • The website is a WP:PRIMARY source. Notability for Wikipedia's purposes is determined by mentions in WP:SECONDARY sources. MarnetteD| Talk 03:22, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
          • @ MarnetteD: It would've been a primary source, if the article was about the FOI itself. Here you are talking about artists' page, the information is not being referenced from Actors personal website (primary for this case), it's about sourcing it from website of award the artist earned, which is a secondary material for artist page.
            You want to discuss it in civil manner. Then let's start. Tell me why is it not notable. The very first line of discussion says "There is almost no mention of the organization at all, except for a few sketchy sites." This is so wrong, and manipulated information, and you have based the whole discussion on this basis. FOI Online Awards itself is the name of the organisation. About Us page on their website clearly mentions (if you can read) "FOI Online Awards (itself acting as a non-profit organisation) is an annual online poll, researched and organized by an anonymous team of film enthusiasts and cinema lovers, honouring the artists for their artworks." If you would have researched a little more, you'll find their is a reason why they are anonymous (read the Rules & Guidelines). Also, you have put this discussion under Conflict of Interest page. How is this even a case of conflict of interest? References are not made to support FOI's article, they are referenced to support facts on actors page. It's reasonable that they don't have sources to have their own article on Wikipedia, but its valid to quote them as sources to mention achievement of artists page. Think before you act! This whole discussion is based on the wrong statement quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:4051:C28:2E84:7360 ( talk) 03:35, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
            • So when you wrote "I won't interfere anymore" you didn't really mean it did you. MarnetteD| Talk 03:40, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
            • Wikipedia articles aren’t considered reliable sources for any purpose as explained in WP:WPNOTRS, except in rare cases where the subject is Wikipedia itself. Moreover, the burden rest upon those wanting to add content to an article to establish a consensus that it should be added, not the other way around. You’re involved in a content dispute with other editors and when that happens you should follow WP:DR. The best way to go about doing this is to convince others that adding it is in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines, not by insulting them. — Marchjuly ( talk) 03:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
              • @ Marchjuly: May be you are right about my tone. I apologize, but I am giving reasons too. Read them above. 1) The very first line of this discussion and the basis is wrong, which says the website don't give out the name of the organisation. FOI Online Awards itself is the name of the organisation. 2) Also, you have put this discussion under Conflict of Interest page. How is this even a case of conflict of interest? References are not made to support FOI's article, they are referenced to support facts on actors page. This is wrong to artists.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:4051:c28:2e84:7360 ( talk) 04:13, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                • If you feel that the reliability of the FOI’s official website is sufficient for citing a particular artist receiving one of its awards and others disagree, you can always seek additional input at WP:BLPN or WP:RSN. Those two noticeboards may actually be better suited for the direction this discussion seems to be heading. I didn’t put the discussion here; I just responded to something you posted. However, as I posted above, Wikipedia articles about artists aren’t written for the benefit of the artist; so, not including content about the awards an artist might have received cannot be wrong for the artist. Your argument rather should be whether including the content is appropriate for Wikipedia and it’s readers and not a case of WP:NOTEVERYTHING. While WP:NNC is true when it comes to article content, the notability of the FOI awards does come into play when deciding whether it’s worth mentioning and the general consensus with respect to articles like this seems to be to limit inclusion to only Wikipedia notable entries.
                  Finally, please try to WP:SIGN your posts since it will make the discussion easier to follow. Another reason to sign your posts is that WP:PINGs don’t work for unsigned posts. — Marchjuly ( talk) 04:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                  • @ Marchjuly: @ MarnetteD: @ BubbaJoe123456: @ Ronz: I apologize if I was rude, before. I understand Wikipedia has such policies, which restrict this particular subject’s inclusion. (1) I will try finding reliable sources for FOI's inclusion, but it won’t be of any use. Media houses have been deliberately ignoring the community of FOI Online Awards, because of their format, that has no monetary advantages. Their anonymity also have a reason, it’s not to create an ambiguity. In a way, you are working for those money-hungry media houses. You are definitely not working for something good, you are in fact a part of the bad politics yourself. (2) Another sad story is, our film industry still takes in Wikipedia profile (if we are lucky to have one or one related) as source of credibility. I am not related to the FOI community. FOI community actually detests Wikipedia as reliable source. I am one of the winners in one of the technical categories and also a part of a film which didn’t garner the deserved attention from the public. But FOI honoured our efforts, and now its removal from Wikipedia is actually a loss to my credibility in finding more work. It’s literally a loss to my resume. (3) Some of you even termed it as spam. No, it’s not a spam; we are contributing to mention something we earned, from hard-work. (4) It’s not even conflict of interest, we didn’t honour this to ourselves, FOI did. (5) We know Wikipedia isn’t a trusted source of gathering facts, but it itself doesn’t have that image in public. Whatever the topic is, a common internet surfer would firstly go to Wikipedia for information. (6) Even after giving this much explanation, I still stand by my point that this discussion is wrongly framed. The subject of this discussion is wrong. FOI Online Awards is a non-profit organisation and has a name. You cannot say, “the website didn’t give a name of the organisation.” And now if you are removing FOI’s traces based on a wrong-framed subject of a discussion, then the action is wrong too, and may I add, “a sign of illiterate and one lacking logic.” (7) We artists, from technicians to actors, have accepted it very much. If you editors think you all have higher precedence in writing our stories by pressing some buttons of your keyboard on Wikipedia, even higher than that of our hard-work we do on film sets, we stand with FOI and completely detest Wikipedia. You can’t be a source of information for our identity and work. Be happy working for it, anyway. (8) This is not a concluding statement. This doesn’t mean I will stop fighting for its inclusion. If in future, it eventually generates the ‘notability’ you are talking and are a self-proclaimed judge of, I won’t refrain from mentioning it here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.9.104.164 ( talk) 05:51, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                  • You want to use wikipedia to promote your organization, it doesn't matter how hard you work for it, advertising it for your own personal gain is completely against the spirit of wikipedia. THe film industry may be corrupt, but there is a reason why it considers wikipedia a reliable source, its because there are people who discuss and remove non-notable sources. I know its unfair, but unless your organization is mentioned in news articles, sponsored and conducts "events where people actually come and take the award" it cannot be considered to be on wikipedia. This is not a place for emerging artists to promote themselves, use youtube or linkedin for that. Daiyusha ( talk) 07:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                    • @ Daiyusha: "You want to use wikipedia to promote your organization, it doesn't matter how hard you work for it, advertising it for your own personal gain is completely against the spirit of wikipedia." Why did you say this? That's the problem, you are not interpreting it positively. When did I promote FOI? I am not promoting FOI, I am not a part of it. I am speaking on behalf of all the artist including me, who have earned this recognition. We are not promoting anyone, we want a mention that we have already earned. Don't make a separate page for FOI, but atleast give us artist their credit. And if you say only an event where people come and receive their award is a qualifying parameter, you are quite a part of the politics of being the unfair here. There are so many polls who have a mention on Wikipedia. Also, don't post such big shot remarks such as "This is not a place for emerging artists to promote themselves", we don't need promotion for ourselves, we have already earned recognition and we asking for its mention. You are probably too low on hierarchy to understand the film industry. And quite disrespectful talking to an artist about taking away its credit, with unreasonable remarks. You need secondary resources to create Wikipedia page, I also know that. If it was for creating an article for FOI, Official website won't be considered as a resource, fair. But it's about crediting the award at artists or films page, in those cases, official website of the award is definitely a secondary and valid resource. I have said this so many times above, don't you get this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a ( talk) 06:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                      • You guys know what? I contacted FOI Online Awards themselves few hour ago, and they quite convinced me how Wikipedia (and equally its self-proclaimed editors) is media oriented platform, and not logic or knowledge oriented. They already have plans for something big, and after which they say even if they get good media presence they would strive to remove all its mention from Wikipedia. They simply believe Wikipedia is as misguided as the Indian media. We were told not to seek notability for mention on a platform that itself has no factual credibility. So I guess, I will stand proudly with my art and hard work, and the recognition I received with it. After all, who are you guys to tell me my worth. In return to pseudo-disturbance (as you may call it) to your mass movement of removing "non-notable" information (I am laughing), I will help you guys :) This is isn't said with any hard feelings, I am genuinely coming on board to improve Wikipedia get rid information as vague as the subject of this discussion. Watch out this space for next few months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:A5F1:347D:7D63:378A ( talk) 08:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                      • There were still traces of this 'non-notable' award on the epic platform of Wikipedia, under the article of Rajkummar Rao, Ranveer Singh, Monali Thakur and Harshdeep Kaur. Removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:A5F1:347D:7D63:378A ( talk) 08:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                        • You know what, today I'm launching the Daiyusha awards, and the first recipient is you. And to give you credit I'll create an article for it. Your argument is just as vague as this. Daiyusha ( talk) 10:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                          • @ Daiyusha: But I am a nobody to accept it, I never did anything, by giving this analogy, you are basically saying all the recipients of this subject are vague, they also didn't do anything. I thought I offered an apology above and mended the rude tone, but I guess you yourself proved that you don't care and understand worth. You are basically not elligible to participate in discussions including notability and credibility. You define Wikipedia. Also, that's not how you talk to co-editors on Wikipedia, that's rude. You are about to get some more. Watch out.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a ( talk) 10:35, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                          • @ Daiyusha: I think by this logic, go to Filmfare Awards 2019 wiki page and remove all references and information sourced from filmfare.com and Times of India (who owns Filmfare). That's blatant Conflict of Interest and article simply based on primary source. I didn't know about this clause on Wiki, there are many more. I can help you rectify them and make Wiki a better place.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7 ( talk) 10:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: @ Daiyusha and 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a: I suggest you both stop going back and forth at each other and go walk the dog. Trying to one up the other is not going to solve this dispute, but may lead to one of you posting something that you're going to end up regretting. This is not how disputes are resolved on Wikipedia. The longer this thread keeps getting, the closer it starts to move into WP:TLDR which means others are just going to just keep away instead of trying to figure out what you two are going on about. If there are no more COI issues to resolve, then let the thread die a natural death. If you want to discuss the reliability of the FOI website, then do so at WP:RSN. If you want to discuss each others behavior, then do so at WP:ANI.
    @2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7: Please start signing your posts. If you're not sure how to do that, then read WP:TILDE. As I posted above, you can't WP:PING other editors if you don't sign your posts. In addition, if possible try to use the same IP address when posting or even better consider creating an WP:ACCOUNT. FWIW, an IP account is actually less anonymous that a registered account since an IP address can usually geo-located. Another nice thing about a registered account other editors can WP:PING you (IP accounts cannot be pinged) and other editors will pretty much always know it's you they are addressing and not somebody else you just happened to log in from the same IP address. Finally, please carefully read through Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point because this is one of the fastest ways to end up being WP:BLOCKed by an administrator
    @Daiyusha: Please be careful not WP:BITE no matter how right you might be; after all, Wikipedia is not about WP:WINning.
    -- Marchjuly ( talk) 11:53, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
    • @ Marchjuly: Thankyou for the advice. I am still learning, I'll create an account soon. I just wanted help this issue if somehow I can. If its about wrong usage of primary sources in articles I wanted to help highlight many more such articles, one I quoted above was for Filmfare Awards, which is simply referencing articles from Filmfare and Times of India (who owns Filmfare). That's blatant conflict of interest. 378a and Daiyusha were in a heated arguement, and none of them looked wrong so I came in. They should discuss it, one of them came to giving rude remarks too, that was wrong.
      @ Daiyusha: I was talking if Tweets from artists thanking FOI may prove as supporting notability, then I can provide many of them.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7 ( talk) 12:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
      • No tweets won't be good enough for establishing notability, reliable sources are more likely to be news articles. I agree that things like filmfare are covered widely by Times group and other newspapers. But there would be atleast one news article in any one newspaper about FOI, that would be helpful. Daiyusha ( talk) 12:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
        • @ Marchjuly: I actually ended the discussion, and resorted to no more confrontation. I contacted FOI, and they said they had absolutely no interest in being mentioned on Wikipedia. Hence, I in fact even deleted some left out references to FOI on articles mentioned above (articles of Ranveer, Harshdeep, Monali and Rajkummar). The next comment that Daiyusha posted, was irrelevant with no explanation or debating confrontation. In fact it was quite rude and plain offensive, and made me question the actual intention of editors here. That's it.
          @ Daiyusha: As an artist and winner of FOI myself, its hurtful that you don't think its worthy to be mentioned in related articles. But that comment you posted, made me realise I actually don't deserve to be mentioned here.
          @ 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7: I am glad you came out in support. Yes, there are many celeb tweets that directly thank FOI for the honour and proves it has been acknowledged in the industry. Literally, that defines notability, I don't know about the Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a ( talk) 12:32, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
        • @ Daiyusha: Google news shows one result, which quotes one of the winners of FOI. For Filmfare I was saying, we need to change the references, because Times of India solely owns Filmfare, sourcing it is Conflict of Interest. I am sure we can find other sources too. We should do it before someone challenges it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7 ( talk) 12:41, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
          • Not really sure if COI applies to sources as well, it usually applies to editors. Because almost all company articles, including articles about Google, Microsoft etc will have their own sources. You can have primary references, the problem is you should not have "only" primary references, atleast one independent reliable source is needed, others can be primary sources. Daiyusha ( talk) 13:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
To the person responding about this - please be aware that none of your pings have worked. As has been mentioned above by Marchjuly you must sign your post with four tildes ~~~~ at the time you make the edit for editors to receive your ping. MarnetteD| Talk 00:44, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @IP 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a and IP 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7: If you're the same person trying to use multiple IP address to try and create the impression that you position is supported by multiple editors, or two different people trying to coordinate your edits to support the same position, then please stop doing this asap per WP:SOCK and WP:MEAT. I'm not posting this because your IP addresses are similar, and because both accounts seem to be unable to understand WP:SIGN, but because of these five consecutive edits within a span of a few minutes: #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5. There generally has to be a really good policy-based or guideline-based reason for one editor to edit/remove another editor's posts, but this really looks like someone was trying to hop from one IP to another to make it seems as if they were more than one person, getting confused about which account they were using, and then going back to fix things so as to continue the charade. The kind of behavior is not allowed at all; so, if that's what you've been doing, you need to stop it right away. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 01:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
    • @ Marchjuly: That's quite premature of you tell me that I am playing the dirty plot you've posted above. You should write thrillers! Never the less it's rude too. No, I didn't do it, and your logic of "five consecutive edits within a span of of a few minutes" makes no sense. There, I didn't sign it again! You may get me blocked, would love having peace in silence. RIP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a117:2c2a:d5d5:7272:a945:3abf ( talk) 13:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
      • The only person who can really "get you blocked" is you. Editors don't get blocked because of what others say about them; they get blocked for their behavior or doing things which aren't otherwise in accordance with relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If you keep logging in and editing with a different IP each time (like you did with your last post above), others are not going to know for sure that it's the same person making the edits, which might in turn be mistaken as it not the being same person or the same person trying to appear to be someone else. It's not rude to point this out to you and show you how diffs can be used to find such behavior or even be mistaken for something inappropriate.
        As for signing your posts, it's not hard to click on ~~~~ in the task bar above the edit summary window after you finish your post and before you click "Publish changes". It makes things easier and not doing so just because you don't want to do so seems a bit WP:POINTy to me. Moreover, {{ ping}} will not work if you don't sign your posts, and others will not be notified that you've responded to whatever is being discussed. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 22:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Is it impossible for acupuncturists to have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing acupuncture?

At Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Acupuncture: not sure what to do here I asked the question "Is it true that according to the RfC cited, It is impossible for acupuncturists to have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing acupuncture?" More input on that question would be welcome. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 18:09, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Per that RfC, no, being an acupuncturist does not create a COI for acupuncture (and so on for other alt-meds). But yes, I'd say it's as impossible for an acu'ist to have a COI for acu as it is for a psychologist to have one for psychology, isn't it? As the RfC closers noted, WP doesn't recognize COI for "broad areas of interest or general competence. Thus, the proposal to single out alt-med practitioners in policy as having a COI is opposed."
I am about to ask the RfC closers for clarification, and I hope this won't take up any more (nor any less) time than it needs to. Happy editing. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 00:32, 9 April 2019 (UTC); added to quote 01:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC); update: closing admins notified [15] (one is on vacation and won't be able to comment for awhile) 01:38, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • no it is not impossible. However a change in policy is not necessary. Guidelines such as WP:COISOURCE provide advice for editing contributions, which may originate from from biased editors. If an editor cherry picks RS to push unduly positive info then that’s biased/POV editing. If an editor inserts links which promote specific practices or products then this is COI editing. A good example from my experience is having to shoot down the addition of fairly innocuous pieces of text which are sourced from obvious commercial sites in the article on interior design. These are added by editors who use link spam to describe interior design using arguably encyclopedic text while employing dubious sourcing techniques. Anyone frequently exhibiting this kind of behavior ought to be declaring a COI as their commercial aims are influencing their editing practices. This ought not to be mandatory however. I am an interior designer and wouldn’t dream of adding my company’s website address into the encyclopedia. Discretion is advised and current policies and guidelines would seem to be sufficient in this case. Edaham ( talk) 02:33, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Fully agree with the spirit of your comment, but it's based on a common misconception of COI. Promotional/biased edits don't cause COI; off-wiki connections do: see WP:COINOTBIAS. It has to do with how closely/specifically an editor is connected to the topic, so e.g. you'd have a COI for an article about your own business but not interior design generally -- no matter how you edited. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 04:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I think you didn't read what I wrote. I specifically highlighted the difference between bias and COI. Someone with the inclination and/or motivation to use the encyclopedia for promotional purposes because of their affiliation with an off-wiki entity has a COI on any article where their off-wiki objectives might influence their editing practices. If I, as an employee of foo-software add content to an article on foo-software, I have a COI. If I add link spam directing people to foo-software on an article about software in general, I have a COI. The differentiation between COI, bias and advocacy doesn't place any limitation on which areas of the encyclopedia the issue occurs, be it an article about foo or the subject to which your foo belongs. Edaham ( talk) 12:55, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Edaham: I believe you're right; I was thrown by your opening sentence. If you mean that one can have a COI for one's foo but not the non-foo aspects of their field, fully agree with that and the rest of what you said. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 17:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I am a former employee of Mattel, and I still consult for pretty much all of the major toy manufacturers. I have a COI, and do not edit the Mattel page. It turns out that engineers who have hands-on experience with producing electronics product at a rate of over 100,000 per hour 24/7 are hard to find. If I make each one a penny cheaper or more expensive that's $24,000 a day.
Not only do I not edit the Mattel page or the pages of any toy manufacturers I have worked for, if -- as is the case with Middle 8's and acupuncture -- our article on Toys said things that would lead a reasonable person to never buy a toy again, I would not edit that page, and I certainly would not edit the page to portray toys more favorably. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Specific edits for examples of such edits. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Guy M: I understand your point about financial connection, but I don't think you're taking into account that such connections can be tenuous enough to not rise to the level of a Wikipedia COI (potential conflict being a continuum, unlike say pregnancy). Ernst thinks that the financial COI for alt-meders tends to be small, and substantially outweighed by what he calls "quasi-evangelical convictions" that amount to a sort of idealogical COI, which of course on WP we call TE, advocacy et cetera.
Like your argument, that point was made in the pertinent RfC (see my !vote for example, and comment starting with the words "Ernst's concept"). Lots of arguments were made, and as you know, the "No" arguments prevailed, and I don't understand why you're making the "Yes" ones again when they're not specific to my case. You should be trying to argue why I have a greater financial interest than alt-meders in general, since the latter was already considered by the RfC. Are you going to do that, or just keep repeating general alt-med criticisms at the wrong forum for this? -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 17:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I am not quite sure why have the RfC closers singled out, we do not have any special knowledge which would be useful here. The result of the RfC was that an alt-med practitioner does not have a COI just because of the fact of them being an alt-med practitioner. They could still have a million of other reasons to have COI, or edit disruptively without having COI. (Not to be interpreted as judgement on the specific case, which I did not look into).-- Ymblanter ( talk) 05:24, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Ymblanter -- that's helpful. Since Guy Macon wanted input from "admins" I figured you three were good choices to interpret your own RfC closing statement. :-)
Two more questions if I may:
1) I think it follows that if an alt-med practitioner somehow does have a COI for content in their field, it's not because of their simply being an acupuncturist. Do you agree? (This is actually not obvious to all editors.)
2) Some are arguing that the RfC's finding is only a "general" one, and that just being an alt-med practitioner is still reason to accuse specific editors of COI. (Some are even justifying this stance with arguments that didn't prevail in the RfC, e.g. that alt-med practitioners should be singled out and treated differently). This strikes me as inappropriate -- effectively an attempt to bypass/ignore the RfC -- but what do you think?
Thanks again, Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 08:11, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I am sorry but I do not think I can say more than what I have already said.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 08:16, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
OK, we'll wait for others to comment. I'll add here that if, somehow, something besides having a profession can cause a COI for acupuncture or anything else, I stand corrected. My bigger concerns are those in my preceding comment, esp. bullet point #2. This thread should really be called "does Middle 6 have a COI" since Guy Macon is attempting to use AN/I to settle that [16] when this (if anywhere) is the proper place.-- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 09:21, 9 April 2019 (UTC); added last sentence 09:26, 9 April 2019 (UTC); ce 09:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
If you wanted this discussion to be about ""does Middle 8 have a COI" you should have made the claim that you have no COI. You did not. You claimed "it's not possible for an acu'ist to have a COI for acupuncture". [17] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 00:49, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Of course I claim I have no COI, because of the "No" finding of the RfC you started because of me. As one of the closers put it above, "An alt-med practitioner does not have a COI just because of the fact of them being an alt-med practitioner." Unless Aristotle was wrong, that major premise extends to acupuncturists, and hence to me. So I do not have a COI for acupuncture, (unless there's some other way to have one for a whole field, which I honestly can't imagine, can you? The same goes for any other acu'ist, but as much as you're focused on that "not possible" soundbite, it's rather a red herring.)
It shouldn't take multiple noticeboards and even ArbCom to grok this logic, should it?
Still waiting for you to explain why I might/should be an exception to that RFC. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 02:19, 11 April 2019 (UTC); minor add'n 02:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC), clarify improbable hypothetical 05:20, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that Guy M or anyone else said that you were an exception. This whole discussion came about because you removed the COI note from the Acupuncture talk page, and then asserted that it's not possible for an acupuncturist to have a COI in the area - I think this discussion is aimed at clarifying that point.
The RFC concluded that alt med practitioners don't automatically have a COI covering their field, but the closing statement also said that Existing policy, including WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:COI are sufficient to handle disruptive editing in this topic (emphasis mine) - so, the closers explicitly accepted that COI policy is relevant in this topic area. They went on to remind editors that any role or relationship outside of Wikipedia may undermine their primary role here of furthering the interests of the encyclopaedia and that editing articles directly in such situations is strongly discouraged. - so, COI may be a particular concern in this area. It is not the case that an acupuncturist will always have a COI with regards to all areas of acupuncture, but it is possible that they may have one in particular areas, and so should be cautious when editing about their field. It seems to me that the COI banner on the talk page is appropriate, in the light of the RfC closure.
My own professions (I've had two) create the potential for conflicts of interest. As a geophysicist, I used to work for a company that develops high-resolution 3D imaging sonars, competing with underwater video systems and diver inspections. I would feel quite comfortable contributing material to sonar articles in general, but I would stay well away from writing about the relative efficacy of sonar systems compared to other methodologies - I have a clear COI in that area. These days as a teacher, I work in an independent school - I wouldn't be worried about contributing to articles on education in general, but I would definitely avoid writing about any potential benefits of private versus state-funded education, no matter how reliable my sourcing was, because I recognise that I have a conflict of interest in that particular area. I think that would apply to anyone - including, but certainly not limited to, alt med practitioners - if your livelihood depends on people trusting in the efficacy of anything, I can't see how you could avoid having a conflict of interest when writing about that efficacy. GirthSummit (blether) 10:15, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Great comments. Several points, replying in reverse order:
  • First, re: "...if your livelihood depends on people trusting in the efficacy of anything, I can't see how you could avoid having a conflict of interest when writing about that efficacy": Of course there's a financial connection (much discussed in the RfC), and it tends to be stronger for alt-med, but is it strong/specific enough to create a COI on WP? Per the RfC it's got to come from something other than simply being a practitioner.
  • Next, on what I really mean: I wish the editor who opened this thread had titled it differently, because I've made clear that by "not possible to have COI" I mean "not possible by virtue of being an acu'ist", and that I know other factors still create COI. This could've been established at user talk, hence no reason for this post imo. (Also this, re the tag.)
  • Finally, re me and COI: it seems clear that Guy in fact is suggesting I could be an exception to the RfC when he says this (yet provides no fresh arguments). I've intentionally kept the discussion focused on acu'ists generally, but FWIW, due to heavy and unfortunate factors quite beyond my control, I haven't been able to practice for years (cf. my comments in userspace dating to 2015 [18] [19] and recently on this board [20]). I've never had the time to build a practice that turned a net profit, and the possibility of that ever happening keeps receding. If I'm honest with myself, it's realistically about zero.
Happy editing. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 06:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC); ce for clarity 00:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Allen Blakemore (political consultant) ‎

I noticed that the user Redwhiteandboujee was inserting the following (unsourced) sentence into a number of articles: "...works with Allen Blakemore to effectively plan and execute political strategy." See, for example, here and here. When I looked into the user's contribution history, I noticed they had created the article Allen Blakemore (political consultant). This looks like a probable case of self-promotion. Marquardtika ( talk) 19:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I'd guess that it's WP:UPE. Regardless, it's blatant promotion. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Definitely blatant promotion,I'm inclined to believe he's edit his clients' articles to give himself more name recognition than being paid to edit. Best, GPL93 ( talk) 16:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Maya Stovall

−

The article was a stub a few days ago when I created it. A very savvy editor with a new account showed up and added many, many refs (in one case they had ten refs in a row). And I just noticed that new savvy editors marks all edits as "m" for minor. Seems like obvious COI and/or UPE editing. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

So, they are helping to improve the article by adding reference links, and you're calling notice to this as a problem? - Wacomshera ( talk) 14:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
It's clearly professional paid editing or COI-- only pros mark all the edits "M" to try to hide them. The account's first edit added ten properly formatted references with cite web, marked "minor". Does that not sound fishy to you? Calling out such obvious COI or UPE is appropriate here to alert the editor that we are suspicious of their neutrality. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 16:44, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, no -- I don't find the addition of properly formatted references (something that Wikipedians beg people to do at meetups and workshops) to an article that you created (and then complained about all of these reference citations being added to it) to be "obvious COI" or "suspicious". Frankly, your complaint strikes me as the more suspicious activity. - Wacomshera ( talk) 01:14, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Gotta stick up for Montreal here, this article is a straight up resume/autobio and he has good experience cleaning this garbage up. Refspam is an exceedingly common UPE tactic designed to trick less experienced editors into thinking an article is well sourced, when most of those sources are misleading or purely WP:ROUTINE. For example, the first three sources comprise: 2 interviews (vice and detroit news) and 1 article written by the subject. These cannot be used to establish notability or describe her work. There doesn't appear to be enough quality sources to establish notability, so I think taking this to AfD is warranted, searching for sources online finds some run of the mill stuff and articles about two different athletes with the same name. SWL36 ( talk) 00:48, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Not much point for AfD as she meets WP:ARTIST 4) d.: In multiple museum collections. I wholeheartedly agree on the tactics of UPE editors, which was the point of posting here. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:12, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Sami Yusuf

The user's talk page calls Sami Yusuf "our artist", evidently the user is one of Yusuf's agents. – Skywatcher68 ( talk) 15:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, they have already said they represent Yusuf's management at their talk page, and they're currently indef blocked for edit warring, block evasion and legal threats. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 15:53, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
This editor has unambiguously edited contrary to the COI guidelines, despite warnings. If this person returns to editing, either via more block-evasion or via an unblock, and the same pattern continues, I will be willing to take further action, but at present, in view of the block that Boing! said Zebedee has mentioned, there is nothing more to be done. The editor who uses the pseudonym " JamesBWatson" ( talk) 16:33, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


Two more of Yusuf's representatives have been added. – Skywatcher68 ( talk) 17:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Apparently there's been socking too – Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Mjahangir777. Bri.public ( talk) 17:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Fabrizio Boccardi

This editor has made a large amount of edits to the article in the past months, including adding excessive refs (one sentence has nearly 50). A connection seems likely. I have made no conclusions about the neutrality of the article, but 314 refs in such a short article is certainly suspicious. MB 05:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Potential COI editing by several (related) IPs

These IPs have recently been making several edits to New Zealand and Pacific Island-related pages, mostly to add a reference to a single recently-published book. At first glance (not having read the book), the reference appears to be at least somewhat relevant, but it seems likely that the IP editors are closely associated with the book in some way - e.g., its author or publisher. I have left a note about this on each of the IPs' Talk pages, but they have not responded. Ross Finlayson ( talk) 21:50, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Another IP:
Ross Finlayson ( talk) 22:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
It's almost every article that these 3 IPs have been editing They're too numerous too list. Ross Finlayson ( talk) 09:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Rsfinlayson:, I see what's going on now. This is bad. There might be a way to get the two links blacklisted so they can't keep getting added. I don't know if they can specify it past the top domain (in this case goodreads.com). try asking the Helk Desk if there's a way to request specific URLs to be added to spam list. Graywalls ( talk) 21:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

and... more
118.93.133.160 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
118.93.9.139 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Graywalls ( talk) 09:01, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

ClaudiaAtGuru

The username implies that the user works at Guru Studio. If that's true, this is a serious violation of WP:COI. The user edited the Guru Studio article for most times. The user also edited True and the Rainbow Kingdom article (the subject of which was produced by Guru Studio.) two times. The changes made by the user were already reverted. JSH-alive/ talk/ cont/ mail 08:04, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

The user's last edit so far was on 12 April 2019, and I left a {{ uw-paid1}} notice on 17 April 2019. Their next edits will determine any future action. -- Drm310 🍁 ( talk) 15:26, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Monica Helms

Given the username and the fact this user has been primarly editing this article I suspect the account could be the subject herself. User has not responded to COI warning I placed on the user's talk page and continues editing. I have placed COI templates on article has the account has extensively edited it. funplussmart ( talk) 01:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Blues America

Hello. Some context: Blues America is a radio series produced and hosted by Drew Verbis. The article Blues America was created on 15 April by User:OU133. It contained sentences such as "richly textured nonfiction narrative that delves deeply into the human experience" and loads of sources that supported very little of the article content. It was deleted yesterday, and just a few hours later, the article Drew Verbis was created by User:DrumSalad. This new article contains a section titled "Blues America" which is basically a copy/paste from the deleted article and loads of sources that support very little of the article content. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 00:25, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello! I know Drew personally and posted this article for him since I know about Wikipedia and have been doing it for some time now. I made sure to review it for promotional language and the like so that it would meet Wikipedia standards. I did not know that he had tried to have it posted before, so I wanted to know what I should do to be transparent about this issue and also what I can do in the future to let the Wikipedia community know that there is a COI. Im happy to answer any questions! Thanks! DrumSalad ( talk) 04:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
I cut some bits out of Drew Verbis that were promotional. Short story: don;t write articles for your firends. This one is very promotional. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 04:37, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
As a rule, your best bet is to simply avoid making any edits at all on topics where you have a COI — but that said, we do recognize that it's impossible for us to prevent people from trying. So you do also have the option of going through draftspace and submitting your draft for an AFC review, so that you'll get feedback from established Wikipedians on what kind of improvements might be necessary to make an article more neutrally worded and better-sourced. People with COIs aren't entirely forbidden from editing the article at all — for example, even Drew Verbis himself would be allowed to edit his article to correct a purely factual error — it just means that you have to be really careful not to step over the line into promotionalism, or adding personal information you know about him personally but can't reference to published sources at all. Bearcat ( talk) 02:48, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Ricardo Costa (filmmaker)

I have reason to suspect that Tertulius, a banned user who was the creator of all of the film articles listed above and has been a significant editor (although not the original creator) of the filmmaker's BLP, may have a direct conflict of interest with regard to these topics. The film articles are all basically advertisements rather than encyclopedia articles, and are referenced overwhelmingly to primary sources rather than reliable source media coverage — and the BLP is also referenced much more heavily to his own self-published content about himself rather than to reliable source coverage or analysis, and features significant passages of total flaming incoherence. ("In some way moved by the idea that explains one sentence of Marcel Mauss, a well-known French sociologist and anthropologist, ("There is more poetry in a grain of reality than in the brain of a poet"), certain Portuguese film-makers, especially after the Carnation Revolution, traveled around their country, from one end to another, camera in hand. With state funds or in co-production with the national broadcast TV station, the RTP, some made "engaged films" (cinéma engagé, i.e. political cinema), but never with lack of charm. Others make films in which reality, as an expression of actual events, appears with that poetical charge, as Mauss refers. Films shot with low budgets but in full liberty. Films portraying reality, a genre to which all those productions fit, would last for a few years and would generate important or even remarkable works, some of which were forgotten.")

I can also provide additional evidence — but I want to be careful about the outing rule, so I'll provide it separately and/or privately if needed rather than addressing it directly here.

I can see a plausible basis for notability here, so I don't want to just rush the articles straight to AFD if somebody's willing to work on cleaning them up, but as things stand the articles are too heavily advertorialized, and not reliably sourced nearly well enough, to just ignore — they need to be addressed, and either fixed or deleted, fairly urgently. Bearcat ( talk) 08:55, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Bearcat, all of them can be safely deleted as a combination of G11 + G12.
There is conclusive evidence about COI, in light of socks, web-hosting and other off-wiki evidence. ∯WBG converse 15:35, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Bearcat, also, there's a ptwiki CU match to RCfilms. You can easily detail the COI aspects without breaching the Outing guidelines. ∯WBG converse 15:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Okay. The other evidence I was cautious about disclosing here was basically the same stuff I listed in the SPI request: the attempt to smuggle Tertilius' past original research about "hybridity in docufiction" back into the docufiction article by means of an external link to a self-published "appendage" PDF stored in Ricardo Costa's website, which was literally word-for-word the exact same content. Clearly you're already aware of that, however, so I have nothing further to add beyond that. Bearcat ( talk) 15:52, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Amandadoyle543

Amandadoyle543, previously known as Birchmierassociates, appears to be an undeclared paid editor. Her articles are pure PR for often non notable subjects. Some come with official photos complete with OTRS permission from the clients supplied by her. They appear ready made adverts bombarded with usually bad sources. They exaggerate minor aspects and are commonly full of info not supported by the sources. Above is just a random sample of her spam.

Some with pics, Amy Dean Hoff [21] [22]m, Hoax (band), Katherine Taylor [23], Richard Ludlow [24], Matthew Carl Earl [25]. duffbeerforme ( talk) 12:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Presley Massara, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Presley Massara
Glory (2007 film), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glory (2007 film)
Natalie Marie Ames, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Natalie Marie Ames
Mercy Malick, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mercy Malick
Richie Stephens (actor), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richie Stephens (actor)
Minerva Vier, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minerva Vier
Some spam sent to afd. duffbeerforme ( talk) 12:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Diabetes Digital Media

Today, User:Jhrastafari moved Arjun Panesar from draft space. It was created on 1 April by User:ContributingWikiUser. It had been deleted in September 2017, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arjun Panesar. Yesterday, User:Jhrastafari created Diabetes Digital Media, the parent company of Diabetes.co.uk, which he created in March 2014‎. Arjun Panesar is a co-founder of both. Seems reasonable to infer that User:Jhrastafari and User:ContributingWikiUser are the same editor and that there is a conflict of interest. Edwardx ( talk) 15:05, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

VentureBeat

This user's only editing has been to add content from VentureBeat to other articles, usually written in a somewhat promotional style. Have reverted many of the recent additions, but they are extensive, and there may be other accounts involved. Edwardx ( talk) 12:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Responsive computer-aided design

All of this user's edits have centered around a single researcher, and have included references (including a PhD thesis) to that individual. The two articles created by this editor may be original research as well. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

VPN hype

There's been a number of problematic VPN articles lately. The active AfD on PureVPN seems to be wobbling on whether what I'd consider rather routine reviews constitute good sources or not. If it survives it will definitely need cleanup. Maybe this is of concern for this noticeboard. ☆ Bri ( talk) 17:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Inquiry on current best practice

As background, please read the note I left on the talk page of Yana Peel (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).

Yana is a friend who very keenly wishes that all proper procedure at Wikipedia be followed, and who is also keen to see some updates to her Wikipedia entry. Her page was tagged a few years ago with a conflict of interest editing tag - I don't have any direct knowledge of whether that was correct, but I think we can assume that it was correct at the time.

It is a common thing that someone edits Wikipedia with a COI, but more or less innocently just trying to help. Even in cases where the edits are a bit too promotional, I believe that this is also often (but not always) "innocent" in the sense that people are naturally prone to speak in a positive way about things they've achieved or done in their lives.

When something like this happens, the result is often an extended "punishment" (although nothing in Wikipedia should ever be punishment!) of a tag on the top of an article which languishes for years.

So here's my inquiry: what is best practice for someone who has a COI tag but wants to do the right thing, in terms of getting that tag removed and getting further edits done to an article?

I'm well aware that there are persistently annoying people who exhaust our patience with repeated efforts to "puff" their entries. That's also an interesting case, but it's not the sort of case I'm asking about right now! I'm talking about nice people.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@ Jimbo Wales: I would suggest it is you who have the conflict of interest. As you are aware, there is no punishment on Wikipedia, only prevention. Those COI tags help prevent disruptive editing and, for that reason, should remain there forever. We also don't have rules that apply to "persistently annoying people" but not "nice people". Such value judgments are subjective and suspect. Chris Troutman ( talk) 13:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
How do I have a conflict of interest on the general topic? I think there is no evidence to suggest that such tags "should remain there forever". That's just an obviously wrong position that only makes sense in a "life sentence punitive" way of thinking.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The COI tags help warn readers of problems with the neutrality of the article. If they want changes made, they should submit them on the talkpage thru the edit request system. COI punishments are preventative because they prevent the article from becoming promotional. We don’t give exceptions to the rules for “nice people”. End of discussion. — pythoncoder ( talk |  contribs) 14:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
No, we don't give exceptions to the rules for nice people, but neither do we seek to punish people for mistakes. You may have heard the expession "Assume good faith" - it's a core value of the Wikipedia movement.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Standard procedure is to use the talk page and propose changes. As for when 'removal' of a COI tag is warranted, it's when a consensus of editors agree that the current version of the page is fair and balanced, and that the edits from the person who was suspected to have a COI were reviewed as non-problematic, or when the problematic parts of those edits were expunged. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 16:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I'd recommend that editor begin a discussion in the article's Talk page. If no one responds, post a note in the Talk page of one or more relevant Wikiprojects. If that doesn't work, drop a note here.
The template shouldn't be used as a badge of shame or punishment; if another editor has reviewed the edits and made the appropriate changes - perhaps none - then the template should be removed. ElKevbo ( talk) 16:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Before we rush to do favors for "nice people", could someone please look into whether the following editors were coordinating their efforts to promote content related to Yana Peel?
  • User:Serpentine_gallery_press_dept (pre-dates Peel's tenure, but establishes a pattern)
  • User:Newcombe45 (seems keenly interested in Mr. and Mrs. Peel and Intelligence Squared, the company she helped purchase, which is headquartered in Newcombe House, at 45 Notting Hill Gate)
  • User:Outset.uk (edits only about Outset Contemporary Art Fund, co-founded by Yana Peel)
  • User:JLMLand (edits only about the artistic director under Yana Peel at Serpentine Galleries)
  • User:Vennietweek (edits only about Para Site, co-chaired by Yana Peel from 2010 to 2015)
  • User:Varez33 (edits only about Stephen Peel)
  • User:Natalia_Cherenkova (strangely only edits about an art collector, Faberge art, and TPG Capital -- Mr. Peel's firm)
And lastly, there is this. Does the fact that the Peels have donated at least $10,000 (perhaps $30,000) to the Wikimedia Foundation influence whether Wikipedians do a favor and remove from her biography a conflict of interest notice to readers and other editors? If so, which way does that influence go? Considering the various mysterious editors above, are we certain there is no further risk in seeing conflict of interest on the biographical article? - Wacomshera ( talk) 19:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
There is absolutely no reason why someone's donation history should ever matter to Wikipedia editing.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't think the donation matters, unless they get preferential treatment. And they are not getting preferential treatment, as is seen in the article. All Jimbo is asking is if someone can explain the current policy, and a request edit on the talk page. Seems pretty free of influence to me.

People are allowed to have friends. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
( arbitrary break)

Jimbo, thanks for asking the question here. It doesn't seem like you got a succinct reply. I think the answer is "This tag may be removed by editors who do not have a conflict of interest after the problem is resolved...", from Template:COI#When to remove. That textbook answer does seem to be aligned with my experience of how things work. Hope this helps. ☆ Bri ( talk) 19:36, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Per Bri's comment, and as a completely uninvolved party here in my living room far from the art world or Wiki headquarters, I made a dozen or so edits to reduce the promotional nature of the article. The tags are still there as they are valid. The article is still promotional and could use the eye of a more experienced editor. I don't see an issue with fixing an article in order to remove a tag and improve wiki qaulity, assuming notability, irregardless of where the request comes from. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


  • I'm wondering about sort of the same thing. Unlike other noticeboards, I see a lot of entries left open and hanging. A case I created , Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Outside_In_(organization) involves an organization that shows signs of a long-term (over a period of years), direct PR engagement by people with affiliation. I'm not sure how long the COI template should remain, but even after neutralization, I feel like this is one of those where something needs to remain on the long term. The latest edit was a reference to unionization being removed by an account that appears to be related to the organization even though the account owner said he was not "paid" or "directed" to make the edit. Basically, I think employees/interns/volunteers who edit on the company's computer or making the edits with consent of management ought to be considered "work related" activity and ought to subject to mandatory disclosure. If the edits are made by salaried staff, it's all too easy to claim they weren't paid "for editing wikipedia" but if that conduct is deemed acceptable work related use of time, then it would be within part of their job. Graywalls ( talk) 08:22, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Sure, but we are not here to punish system abusers; we're here to build a good encyclopedia. If a tagged article can be turned into a good, neutral article by editing, that is the optimal outcome. Think of any family or organization. Sh*t happens, but you move towards the main goal of your family or organization; you don't spend years punishing the kids or your employees. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
And we also can, and should, make a nuanced distinction between "system abusers" (who absolutely do exist) and people who have make mistakes in the past but now want to walk away with dignity.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
If article subject company has a tendency to do direct PR editing over a long time, a notice would serve to help readers informed to check edit history and be advised that changes made by the organization itself may continue to occur. It isn't "punishing" the organization. It's keeping readers informed. Graywalls ( talk) 08:36, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
If someone in your family has a history of violating your family's rules, sometimes an honest intervention is helpful before you naively accept an endorsement from their "friend" that they (and their spouse and their corporations that have also been violating the family's rules) are a "nice person" now. - Wacomshera ( talk) 13:24, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
I see your point but watchlists do that in the background. PR edits, we revert. Leaving tags on purpose for months or years and focusing on the abusers rather than article improvement is counterproductive. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi! Are you, or have you ever been, paid by anyone to edit wikipedia? Thanks! 199.247.44.10 ( talk) 05:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Hello Ohio! The answer is no and no. Did you forget to log in? ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Nope! Ohio, huh. Man, I get around. 199.247.44.10 ( talk) 06:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

The matter of connected and paid editing seems more pervasive than I was expecting. When I discovered connected editing at Outside In (organization), I thought it was a relatively isolated issue. Then, I found the same issue at Pride Northwest involving executive staff editing the page. As I click around categories, pages for my area, pages for local papers referenced within articles and mostly from just poking around, more such issues surfaced. Special interest group and an alternative newspaper publisher Street_Roots was added by the account named with its own own; and that of the executive editor (who is identified within cited sources). Then, I've found edits to an article from an IP originating in the article's company that was helping themselves to the article and adding things into the project list; formatting the layout in the way they want it laid out. That is one of the largest privately held company in Oregon Hoffman Construction Company. Are we to simply neutralize things and let it go on as if nothing happened whenever it happens? On Street Roots, the talk page already had a "connected contributor" tag, but people don't really look there. This is a great example of delayed discovery. I added this template since after reviewing evidence present, I had good faith reason to suspect UDPE. The template was met with resistance from another editor within hours who wanted the article sanitized and wanted the "branding" gone yesterday. Is it the current best practice to just wipe off contentious contents and let the template come down immediately? There seems to be no deterrent to this behavior as promotional contents would stay until caught, and if caught, all they have to do would be remove the contents and any marking of such attempt just vanish into the thin air for all practice purposes as people don't generally bother go digging in the edit history. Graywalls ( talk) 09:38, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Remove tag - I agree with Jimbo Wales, Headbomb & Bri - the tag is used when the article is problematic as a direct result of COI editing. When CE and other clean-up is performed to make the article compliant with WP:PAG (by at least one editor who is not connected), the tag should be removed. Leaving the tag makes the page seem less encyclopedic and more welcoming to COI editors in that we've created a placeholder for them, at which point we might as well include text like This article was presented to you by Outside Contemporary Art Fund...and maybe consider charging them for the space; a bit of hyperbole but close to reality nonetheless. Atsme Talk 📧 13:08, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
"Leaving the tag makes the page seem less encyclopedic and more welcoming to COI editors in that we've created a placeholder for them" This is not true; your opinion is wrong. Chris Troutman ( talk) 13:25, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
An opinion based on one's impression is neither right nor wrong. We're entitled to our own opinions, not our own facts. You can disagree all you want but you have no fact-based evidence that it's either not true or that it's wrong. Perhaps you should refresh your memory about the conditions under which we use and remove Template:COI. For removal, it clearly states: When to remove - This tag may be removed by editors who do not have a conflict of interest after the problem is resolved, if the problem is not explained on the article's talk page, and/or if no current attempts to resolve the problem can be found. Atsme Talk 📧 17:30, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Martin Eastwood

Might need more eyes on this ... the creator seems to be intent on describing this person in ways consistent with WP:Identifying PR. ☆ Bri ( talk) 17:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Hm. I tried going in and cleaning out some of the more egregiously poor material, and was almost instantly reverted by user:Anaxial, who has never edited the article before. More eyes needed indeed. 199.247.43.106 ( talk) 06:34, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
To be clear, I was only reverting the claim that Eastwood was a "professional attention-seeker." This claim was unsourced, and, to my mind, a potential BLP issue. It is no longer there, and I do not have an issue with the latest edit that I have seen. Anaxial ( talk) 06:37, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Copy that. El_C 06:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
It would have taken you just as much time and just as many clicks to just remove that bit as to revert my whole edit and thus restore unsourced information. Either way, I accept that your intentions were good. 199.247.43.106 ( talk) 06:42, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Rad Hourani

This article has existed for about ten years, initially in a poorly written and poorly sourced form that should never have survived basic new pages review. Several years later, however, the subject himself grabbed hold of the article and started trying to advertorialize the hell out of it, turning it very much more into an extension of his own self-published PR rather than a neutral or properly referenced encyclopedia article — and ever since then, the article's been subject to a constant tug of war between established Wikipedia editors trying to neutralize it and mostly anonymous IP numbers (but sometimes Floquirion, an SPA with no history of ever editing any other article but this) trying to readvertorialize it again. This has, most notably, included repeated attempts to add a dedicated "directory of quotations" section to highlight every Deep Thought by Jack Handy thing he ever said in an interview, which myself and other editors have continually reverted but which invariably comes back again in a new format weeks or months later. That's not the only kind of creeping advertorialism that's been happening here, but it is the most common recurring form.

In all this time, however, even the most neutral version of the article has never actually been well-sourced — it cites one deadlinked blog, one Q&A interview in which he's speaking about himself, and the absolute bare minimum (i.e. two pieces) of genuine reliable source coverage necessary to argue that the requirement for "multiple reliable sources" has been passed since two is technically multiple. (GNG, of course, is not actually as simple as "keep anything that meets or exceeds two footnotes", but takes into account additional factors like depth and range and context, and can be flunked by an article with 50 footnotes if they all fail one or more of those tests.)

I'm reluctant to actually take it to AFD, however, as there are plausible notability claims being made in the article — they just aren't being sourced properly, and the article clearly needs to be reviewed and monitored for COI and neutrality issues. But after having been involved in this continual tug of war for almost 3.5 years, I'm tired of it and not dispassionate enough anymore to fix it myself. Is anybody else willing to take a stab at it, and/or take it to AFD if the COI issue is just too incurable? Bearcat ( talk) 22:18, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

@ Bearcat: OK I see you have protected it with "admin access required". I've never seen that, is it necessary? I see lots of sources in GNews, and was planning to remove all the unsourced material and return it to stub. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:03, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I did that temporarily just to put a lid on the immediate problem, because what happened is that when I reverted an IP's new attempt to recreate the Deep Thoughts directory yesterday, and applied temporary autoconfirmed protection to limit IP edits, Floquirion immediately logged into the named account to unrevert the quotefarm back into the article again. Floquirion hasn't edited Wikipedia a ton, but they have edited Wikipedia enough to edit through the autoconfirmed level of semi-protection — so the only ways to arrest the quotefarm, while I brought the issue here for review, were either temporary full protection or longer-term extended-confirmed protection (which may still be necessary, but isn't normally used as the first line of defense.) If you want to work on the article, I can drop the protection level — I've lowered it to extended-confirmed, so you should now be able to make changes. Bearcat ( talk) 14:23, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I have made some cuts and added some sources. He is very notable. It took me minutes to find very high quality sources. He is also in the permanent collection of the Cooper Hewitt Design Museum in NYC. See article for source. (PS: Floquirion appears to be the article subject, based on claiming the self-portrait image that was in the article as "own work"). ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 14:52, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
IPs added and notified. They all seem to be coming from the same network. SPI? ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Wikibaji sockfarm

articles (partial)
sockfarm (partial)

I'll come back this evening and put more info here. There's an SPI that hasn't been quite closed yet. ☆ Bri ( talk) 03:31, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Additional spammers:

MER-C 18:46, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Favor to ask of any admin including MER-C : could you evaluate Special:Permalink/812581456 (by sock Apmsia) to the deleted version of Draft:Kraiburg TPE (by another editor sock Apmsia) and let us know if it is similar? I suspect another undiscovered sock related to this group. Bri.public ( talk) 20:45, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
They are indeed substantially similar. MER-C 20:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, I swapped the labels above (now struck/corrected) but I guess it doesn't really matter now. Bri.public ( talk) 21:39, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Just noting until this case gets merged, it is only visible at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SaiLeeKom - Bri.public ( talk) 16:44, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Sockfarm still active. New drawer of socks was just CU confirmed. ☆ Bri ( talk) 17:30, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Just blocked:
See [26].
See Adel Sajan/ Draft:Adel Sajan.
as suspected sockpuppets. MER-C 10:05, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft:Oluwatobi Oyinlola is back, courtesy of Dopedaniel. MER-C 17:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

GuestReady

This article may benefit from a closer look from some of the editors here. -- Randykitty ( talk) 09:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

The two primary editors of the article, Spacefrog and Spfr are CU confirmed as master and puppet, and have been blocked. Yunshui  雲 水 09:46, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Quarantined. Two older articles are listed above. MER-C 10:51, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_142&oldid=897150940"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John Fekner

 Resolved Puppeteer and puppets are gone. Graywalls ( talk) 01:50, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

yes, thank you to all the kind admins who took care of that. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:07, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

It seems like most of Fekner related contents are added by the subject or those related to him through the accounts Daniellasuttoni and Incantation. The activity on those accounts are almost entirely limited to editing the John Fekner article and Fekner's Idioblast album. When they were editing other articles, they're usually related to category spamming with Fekner related contents or Fekner authored photos. example 1, example 2, example 3 Graywalls ( talk) 09:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Wow, good call on this one. The Fekner article is like a finely tuned memorial to every time he took a breath or ate an apple. I have trimmed 1000 bytes or so so far, and am trying to rid it of more of the banalities. The general problem is that he's notable, but just in a regular way and not in a Vito Acconci, Chris Burden or Louise Bourgeois kind of way. He's a very average to slightly above average artist. The connected articles are similarly awful. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 15:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I have notified the above users with COIN templates on their talk pages, per the policy. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 17:38, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I've removed overwhelming majority of John Fekner promoting contents that have been injected into other articles by these accounts. Graywalls ( talk) 07:20, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Fekner seems to say they are the article's subject here, offering to revoke donation of images they uploaded (see File:Fekqueens.jpg & File:FEKMYADwiki.jpg "John Fekner (c) 1980"). Bri.public ( talk) 22:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, I received a somewhat nasty email from user Fekner, signed by a highly similar sounding name. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 23:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Everything that I donated to Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons for over a decade was done with the best intentions and free for anyone to use. I worked with numerous editors, Wikipedia authority control for over a decade, Recently, both ThatMontrealIP& Graywalls removed text, research and all the images from the john fekner page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fekner ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

This was the letter that was sent to: ThatMontrealIP For the past thirteen years I've made numerous contribution of images to Wikimedia Commons for free use to everyone using Wikipedia as a resource. As a supporter of Wikipedia, I've made yearly donations. I've worked with Wikipedia editors on both the John Fekner /info/en/?search=John_Fekner and John Fekner City Squad Idioblast /info/en/?search=Idioblast_(album)

Now, I see all the major vicious editing of text and removing of images that both ThatMontrealIPand Graywalls Graywallshave done. It's sad, disheartening, discouraging to power of Wikipedia philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fekner ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Fekner, I see what you are saying but it's not as well-intentioned as you make it out to be. Participating in the editing of your own article, if you are indeed John Fekner, is basically promotion, and we try to avoid that here. See also WP:COI. John Fekner is certainly an important artist, but the article on him and the article on his album were very, very promotional. All that Graywalls and I did was to counter that promotional intent to reflect the existing sources. We are not here to promote John Fekner's accomplishments, but rather to note them in an encyclopedic way. If John Fekner needs to promote himself, he can do that with his own website. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:49, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@ ThatMontrealIP: What seems a little odd here is that he's been labeling the pictures so in a way seemingly contradictory to the license terms by using the © all reserved symbol and "Estate of John Fekner". Take a look at the license spectrum in the article Creative_Commons_license. © is in the most restrictive category. It seems to me that he CC-SA'd the pictures in order to be able to exhibit them and essentially maintain John Fekner as his profile without getting summarily removed but really intends on hanging onto control of how the photos are used by others. Why would he append copyright mark and "Estate of John Fekner" and express his intent to claw back the photos otherwise? Graywalls ( talk) 20:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
My take is the C symbol neither adds nor removes anything when they have already agreed to donate (share) content under the CC license. WP:COPYRIGHT states "You retain copyright to materials you contribute to Wikipedia, text and media. Copyright is never transferred to Wikipedia. You can later republish and relicense them in any way you like. However, you can never retract or alter the license for copies of materials that you place here". Bri.public ( talk) 21:12, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Bri.public on this. Uploading a file to Commons under a free license is not the same as an official copyright transfer agreement; basically, the uploader is only agreeing to freely release a particular version of the work. The licensing on that version remains in effect in perpetuity and anyone can continue to use that particular file under the terms of its license, but the copyright ownership or the original work remains with the original creator. This is one of the reasons WP:OTRS verification is often required for files licensed under a free license because the WP:CONSENT of the copyright holder needs to be clear. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 21:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Marchjuly and Bri.public: I think what you are saying is exactly right. You can't ever give away your copyright (although your estate might get it, or it might expire and the work enters public domain), but you can license it very freely which is almost the same and what happens when you agree to Commmons terms of use. Fekner always has the right to control licensing of his work ("copy right"), but if he uploaded it to Commons with a CC license, then he licensed it to all under those terms, irregardless if he wants to continue noting that he has copyright over his creative works by appending © to his works. The least restrictive license issued for the work at hand will be the one we should concern ourselves with. I am not so concerned though, as it is promotional editing. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 23:13, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
There seems to be an obvious COI which means he should refrain from directly editing the article as explained in WP:COIADVICE. Any content too promotional sounding remaining in the article should be cleaned up if possible or removed altogether if it simply doesn't belong. His COI however, doesn't prevent him from uploading files to Commons for use in the article; in fact, it's better for him to do so since it makes verifying WP:CONSENT easier. Now, uploading photos to Commons and then automatically expecting that they all be added to the article is where his COI comes into play again and that could be seen as self promotion (even if unintentional). So, the images could be discussed by others on the article talk page and then determined which if any could be re-added to strike a good balance between providing more information to the reader and avoiding WP:NOTGALLERY. Ideally, the infobox image should be for primary identification purposes of the subject; so, if Fekner uploads a selfie or other photo of himself which he holds the copyright on to Commons, such a photo should be fine for Wikipedia's purposes. One or two photos of representative works might also be OK as long as they are tied into the article content and not basically another "different" image showing the same style an technique, etc. Album covers, etc. probably are fine in stand-alone articles about the work in question and not really needed in the BLP article for simply "illustrative" purposes regardless of whether they're freely licensed, unless there is particularly one he received a lot of coverage in reliable sources for some reason; otherwise, hatnotes or links to those articles seems fine. Whatever images aren't being used in the article can also be linked to by using the Commons template mentioned above.
As for "clawing" back the photos, I don't that's possible; he can as an uploader request that they be deleted per c:COM:DR, but whether they ultimately are will depend on the Commons community and how much it wants to honor his request. If the files are deleted from Commons that would mean they'd be no longer available to use on Wikipedia, etc., but their licensing would still remain in effect and anyone who downloaded the photos and was using them under that particular licensing would probably be OK in continuing to do so. Anyway, we shouldn't really be discouraging him so that he wants to abandon Wikipedia/Commmons altogether by removing every single file he ever uploaded in good faith for use in the article as "self-promotion"; instead, we should be trying to explain how he can help us bring the article better in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines, particularly with the images. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 00:18, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't disagree with what you say, but it's better applied to good faith editors without COI. I see no need to pander to the needs of someone who is using us for promotional goals. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 01:20, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @ Graywalls: While there may be genuine conflict of interest concerns regarding the article, removing each and every image like you did here seems a bit excessive. It's not uncommon for articles about visual artists to contain images showing examples of the artist's work. Ideally, the article shouldn't just be one big image gallery of images, but one or two representative works which closely ties into the article content should be fine. Problems seem to arise when the files being used are non-free content because Wikpedia's non-free content use policy is quite restrictive, but most of the images used in the article seem to have been released by the copyright holder under a free license Wikipedia accepts and their licensing has been verified by WP:OTRS. The main infobox image should really be for primary identification purposes of the subject of the article, but some of the other images could be restored. Eliminate those which are being used in other article like album covers, etc. and focus on those which best tie in to the article content. One representaive example of each particular artistic style or technique is all that's really need, and the other images can be linked to using a template such as Template:Commons or another similar template. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • {{ Commons category}} is usually the template of choice Bri.public ( talk) 20:43, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @ Marchjuly:, I personally wouldn't just settle at "while there maybe conflict" when there's evidence that the subjective wrote the article himself and presented it in the way as he likes it and Fekner's name and Fekner authored contents were strategically seeded into articles in subject matter of his interest likely under his full control. Since those close to the subject chose every element of the article, the photos chosen represent how he wanted them presented in relation to prose. Therefore, it obstructs neutrality. I think it's fair game that photos were completely buffed out for now from the article. If others find him notable enough, they'll look around, find the pictures and reinsert them at their editorial discretion. Autobiography creation is highly discouraged. Concerning adding his own materials into other articles, I think this issue runs parallel with the dispute about Michael Simkovic that happens to be being discussed right under this dispute. Graywalls ( talk) 09:10, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

For those interested

There is a discussion about the Huff-Po article and paid editing at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#HuffPost article on WP COI editing. Another was started at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Whitewashing? after-the-fact but now points to the AN discussion. Atsme Talk 📧 12:12, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

The noticeboard discussion also contains proposals related to paid editing in general. See "Suggestions and proposals related to paid editing" and "Prohibition on all paid editing" for details. —  Newslinger  talk 02:58, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Alessio Pasquinelli

More brand skipped

I don't like to use external source, but the user keen on maintaining the list of sponsored teams in the sport wear articles to include "current" teams only (removing the expired sponsorship without really providing any reason) and without disclosing his source to verify . Googling his name "Alessio Pasquinelli" in linkedin shown his past position as "SPONSORSHIPS BROKER CONSULTANT", "SPONSORSHIPS MANAGER" and current position as "Pasquinelli Work Advertising". Matthew hk ( talk) 11:25, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Scott Shaw

This is from an ancient SPI from 2009 Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Alex West/Archive that was never cleaned up after. I found it today via this post on r/wikipedia (reddit). Most of these articles are films that Scott Shaw (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) had an involvement in that do not appear to meet WP:NFILM. I haven't been able to determine whether Shaw meets WP:CREATIVE.

I'm also concerned that Chinanski ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a still-active sock of the same master. The account was created at a similar time and has edited many of the same articles: [1]. SmartSE ( talk) 16:53, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft:GPV International A/S

Draft:GPV International A/S ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
CCS Group ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Erolatccsgroup ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)


User’s only edits were first acquiring Wikipedia experience, then on CCS Group. Now that CCS Group has been acquired by GPV International, their edits are intended to create an article about GPV International. My inquiry about conflict of interest was not answered, but the following inquiry on my talk page is written in the first person plural and is typical of corporate editing: s://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Robert_McClenon&type=revision&diff=89 Robert McClenon ( talk) 18:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

To start, looks like a violation of the shared username policy. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 18:38, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Nope. It is perfectly ok to use <name> at <organization> as that clearly represents an individual. That being said, this is pretty clearly WP:PAID. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:13, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Ah yes, I was reading CCS group as a user account. I corrected the order above. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 00:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
And as they seemed to completely either ignore or not understand attempt to clarify how this works (they actually had to change their username once already and were warned about COI 2 years ago) I've issued an indef block. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:21, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Not to mention the edit-warring to remove the COI tag from the article. Anyway, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CCS Group. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 21:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

UPE cluster

articles

See Special:Diff/891222663. - Bri.public ( talk) 20:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

SPI pending: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gghenn2. MER-C 20:48, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Listing blocked Holbornassets who created Holborn Assets Limited and was blocked 4 August 2015. Not saying he's part of the current sockfarm.
Expecting to see the creator of City Express Money Transfer turn up in the SPI. - Bri.public ( talk) 22:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Orbitless drives COI

There is a person named Leo Stocco, who is apparently the CTO and Founder of Orbitless_drives, he is also an author of some of the papers mentioned as sources in the article. Now The problem is in the user page of the wiki user, please have a look. Daiyusha ( talk) 06:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, there is definitely a COI. I've sent the article to AFD. SmartSE ( talk) 09:32, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Udit Raj

Editor who has stated that he is the subject of the article has completely rewritten it in a non-neutral way. Reverted with explanation and reinstated : Bhunacat10 (talk), 08:24, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I cleaned it up a bit (removed improper bold, added proper sections). It seems like it may have been adapted from an essay, given the section headings It had previously. It's far too dense for me to figure out what is going on. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 18:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
there is a bit of an edit war going on at this page, between the eponymous editor and a number of good faith editors. I've warned Dr.uditraj at his talk page, but he seems to be headed for a block. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 16:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Rudy Takala

I'm requesting independent review of this BLP article, which contains a great deal of apparently unsourced information.

The three SPA editors are all inactive. Together, they've written 90% of the current content. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:41, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Mathieu Chantelois

I think User:Blipblip88 is Mathieu himself.

In Aug 2018 Mathieu sanitizes his page under his own name: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Mathieu_Chantelois&type=revision&diff=853283903&oldid=845679634

It's reverted, for COI reasons. Almost immediately after, and then continuously, we see edits from User:Blipblip88 doing nothing but positive edits.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mathieu_Chantelois.jpg is a selfie, uploaded by Blipblip88.

All of his edits are on Mathieu's article. /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/Blipblip88

Exilewhat ( talk) 03:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Jonathan Mover

Bonzofreak is a single-purpose account, with all 12 years of his edits closely connected to the rock drummer Jonathan Mover. The problem here is that Bonzofreak has been repeatedly adding promotional stuff to the Mover biography, especially stuff about Mover's minor business ventures, about which nothing has been written in the press. [2] [3] [4] Peacock wording is frequently inserted, such as "fantastic bassist" [5] and "drummer extraordinaire". [6] Bonzofreak has been warned repeatedly against such promotion but has never used a talk page, and has never communicated with other editors. Recently he has engaged in a slow motion edit war to keep promotional text in the Mover biography, reverted by myself and Rodericksilly. Something needs to be done to get his attention and stop the disruption. Binksternet ( talk) 05:03, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

  • @ Binksternet: Any edit warring or other disruptive behavior (including an unwillngness to communicate with others) probably would be better off dealt with at WP:ANI or WP:AN3. The lead and the magazine section were each just big paragraphs of name dropping and other unsourced claims, so I went and removed most of that, but the article still has some sourcing problems per WP:BLPSOURCES. Content about Mover's involvement with Drumhead can likely be re-added if supported by citations to reliable secondary sources and written in a more encyclopedic tone, but simply linking to the magazine's homepage is not going to be good enough per WP:RSCONTEXT and WP:BLPSELFPUB, especally since the magazine doesn't appear to be Wikipedia notable in it's own right and simply redirects to the article about Mover.
    FWIW, Bonzofreak does seem to edit in spurts which might explain the lack of interaction with other editors. They seem to make a bunch of edits, disappear for awhile, and then come back a few months later. There's also no record of them making any article talk posts or user talk page posts in twelve years of editing which could be seen a pretty good indication of WP:NOTHERE more than anything else. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 05:51, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Lack of interaction with other users is difficult to explain given that both Binskernet and I have left messages on his Talk page and he has continued to make the same edits. He's just not interested in dialogue. Rodericksilly ( talk) 06:02, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
      • I agree that no history of interacting with others is not a good indication of WP:HERE and this might be something worth discussing at ANI; however, not interacting with others isn't really something which can be dealt with here at COIN. There's already a {{ Connected contributor}} template added to the article's talk page which includes a link to what might be seen as a possible COI declaration ( "he gave me the license...") made way back in December 2007, but WP:DISCLOSE is not mandatory except for WP:PAID. The editor was advised about COI back in January 2019 after a brief editing spurt and then warned yesterday about edit warring. If they continue on as before without any response, then ANI or AN3 are probably better ways than COIN to try and stop the disruption. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 06:48, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Pride Northwest

I could nominate it for AfD, but there's a concern with the number of obvious company associated accounts used. Significant amount of contents as it remains now originated from the account PNWStaff and the other three are basically single purpose accounts. CLMurphy1 describes himself as an event promoter and the name he provided himself comes back as management staff for the org. Debraporta comes up as executive director in Google. Please see article talk page for details. Following the duck quack I can reasonably suspect Mel45's exclusive participation on this article indicates it too is a related editor. How should it go forward? Graywalls ( talk) 06:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Related: diff --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:15, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Etherweave

Etherweave is a business offering "services include marketing strategy, Web design and development, copywriting, editorial services, integrated e-mail campaigns and a range of other services" [7]. All of the authors listed above are or were clients of theirs. duffbeerforme ( talk) 11:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Outside In (organization)


  • The user just updated his user page on 6 Aug 2006 which included inserting "Clinic Shifts at Outside In and NHC 6 Aug 2006
  • Series of edits involving substantial contents change between 26 May 2011 and 1 June 2011 between accounts Travis.Thurston, Oivolunteer and IP 98.142.37.50 that occurred around here. To be on the safe side of WP:OUTING policy, I would not elaborate the data found however to those familiar, there's a sufficient indication to show that signed edit occurred at the organization. The user name OIVolunteer is quite obvious and self-explanatory.
  • Edits by 209.63.132.196 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on 19 Feb 2016, and at the time of occurrence, there's a good likelihood of correlation between the organization and the edit source. Didn't post notice on that IP's talk, because there's a newer edit to it and there's likely no correlation between organization and that IP now. diff
  • Relatively recent edit by JayHedegard on 12 Oct 2018. For privacy policy, specifics are omitted but this edit appears to have been done for the organization.

An editor who is currently engaged with editing expressed discontent with the COI tag remaining on the page and wants it gone and he's asking what contents should be changed for the tag to go away. I'm uncertain about the accepted norm here regarding how long they should remain on. I expressed my view that my concern isn't necessarily the sourcing. My concern is that since the article was built from the ground up by someone likely acting on behalf of the organization likely with substantial input and possibly under the direction and supervision of the organization, the outline of categories and contents on which contents are expanded upon may contain deeply entrenched bias that tends to define what contents to include and not include. A comment was inserted by yet another IP editor relating to unionization. This content was removed by an account which I have a good reason to believe it is related to the organization. That account has only been used for edits relating to this organization and the edit summary for removing unionization was that it's "inaccurate". This occurred within the last 6 months. I have researched the contents that was removed and the information appears to be accurate. I believe that current COI still exists after observing that edit on the union matter that seems to indicate PR engagement by organization to manage contents about the organization. I think resolving it is a little more than complicated than simply improving contents. As long as the outline of the original apge creation remains, there's likely an implicit bias that moderates what contents get built up or contents remaining that would not have been entered without any input from involved editors. The COI concern will remain as long as organization continues to monitor and actively engage in contents management. Graywalls ( talk) 17:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I attempted to remove some of the primary sourcing, among other edits, but my work was reverted by Graywalls. I think this should just be reduced to an appropriate stub, if NPOV is a concern. Let's not make this more work than needed. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 17:57, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you care so much now to clear the tag expeditiously but didn't even bat an eye about the COI editing itself. Graywalls ( talk) 17:06, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Undisclosed COI editing can be concerning, but I'm more focused on getting the current article's contents Wikipedia-compliant, instead of focusing who added what and when. I'd like to see editors remove problematic content so the tag can be removed, what's wrong with that? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
These two points in time makes a great example of a deeply entrenched bias. This content was originally inserted, unsourced, from the organization's IP. initially. The statement became referenced through sources coalescing around the statement inserted by the organization's IP. Despite having the appearance of being well sourced, bias was introduced from someone at the organization inserting what wants to be presented in the article on them. Suspected edits originating at the organization or accounts associated with it occurred in August 2006, Jay-June 2011, Feb 2016 and most recently (that I am aware of) in October 2018. I argue that this is one of the articles that needs to be on a long term watch and it's not just a matter of neutralizing it now and be done with due to sufficient evidence of chronic undisclosed, direct PR engagement from the organization. The most recent suspected COI editor responded and commented he was not compensated or was directed by the organization; although evidence supports the account was essentially SPA, and other edits on this organization clearly shows there's a pattern of edits being made to article about them from their IP. Graywalls ( talk) 17:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't have an objection with this specific but it's interesting that this content whose inclusion decision was made by an Outside In connected contributor was brought back up soon after it was removed. When the article subject takes the initiative to insert contents, contents can coagulate around the outline or contents left in edit history. Analogously, I tore off the pavement that wasn't supposed to be put in the first place. It was paved, but paving followed the shadows left behind, thus retaining the planning bias (caused by connected contributor that chose where to freshly lay the roads). Hopefully this helps explain the concern I have expressed about the issue of deep entrenched COI that becomes woven into the fabric of an article. Graywalls ( talk) 12:56, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Reply from JayHedegard

As it appears on his talk page: Graywalls ( talk) 12:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello Drm310. Sorry, I'm not sure if I am replying to this correctly. I have not been compensated in any way for the edits I made to the Outside In page nor was I directed to do so by the organization. Thanks. Jay

Venous leak

Despite Orangelioncat has declared conflicts of interests that they are associated with Geng Long Hsu, Orangelioncat has been inserting links to Geng Long Hsu's article on the Encyclopedia of Reproduction into on assertions that are not supported by the sources at all. For example, "Vascular Surgery for Erectile Dysfunction" is cited in Venous leak three times yet none of the assertions can be supported by it. Considering that Orangelioncat has prominently mentioned Hsu's contribution that does not exist in the source (e.g. [8], [9]), I found it difficult to believe that those edits are to "disseminate the verifiable knowledge". Mys_721tx ( talk) 04:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

The COI has also been noted by User:Flyer22 Reborn in January. - Mys_721tx ( talk) 04:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Orangelioncat has a clear COI. And I alerted WP:Med to it. Doc James edited the Venous leak article a bit after I noted the COI stuff. I've been over matters with Orangelioncat on my talk page. But today, I see that the editor is still spamming penile articles with Geng Long Hsu material and that there is a Genglonghsu ( talk · contribs) account adding Geng Long Hsu material. I can be seen reverting that account here, for example, stating "Revert WP:COI material. See User talk:Flyer22 Reborn#Penile articles. Get it published in independent sources first." I noted on my talk page that the "os analog" aspect typically isn't mentioned in the human penis literature. I wanted to point out that anatomy literature can differ and we need to take care in such cases. When something is only or mostly being stated by one researcher, it is likely best to use WP:In-text attribution and note that it's that researcher (or that researcher and his group) stating that. It's that case for other subjects as well, not just anatomy. This is where the WP:Due weight policy is useful. I told Orangelioncat that I wouldn't object to Orangelioncat adding that Long Hsu (or someone else) states so and so about the os analog. I also noted that, as for Long Hsu's expertise, I do see that in the Wikipedia article Orangelioncat created on him, it states that he claimed to "know the penis more than anyone else in the world." He can claim that, but we shouldn't just go by his word on penile matters. The rest of the literature should be in agreement with him if we are to take everything he states as fact. Otherwise, if he states something that conflicts with the rest of the literature, we should give the matter in-text attribution. I don't like going by single studies for anything. Studies with results that that have been replicated are more reliable. I also pointed Orangelioncat to WP:MEDRS. A source can be WP:MEDRS-compliant and still out of step with what the literature generally reports. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Edits mentioned are definitely UNDUE, and Geng Long Hsu certainly has a COI for citing their own work. Whether Orangelioncat has a close enough connection to Geng Long Hsu to create a COI isn't clear to me (but if not, non-COI protocols should be adequate AFAIK). -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 09:05, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Mys_721tx

Yes, as stated in my conversation with Flyer22 Reborn, I respect the consensus and rules in the Wiki community. It's my pleasure to engage in this discussion. On my part, the extent of COI, although minor, is present, and it's stated at the beginning.

Here, I do try to use as many secondary sources as possible, and that's why the Encyclopedia of Reproduction is applied. Otherwise, there are indeed some news articles that can be used, but some of them need to be translated. The aim is definitely not to spam these articles. Those references, directly or indirectly, serve as support to the statements. In examination over the comments made here, I would re-visit and modify in accordance with what's considered appropriate.

In regard to the questioning over the belief to distribute "verifiable knowledge," I wish to talk a bit more about the images themselves that were used. Of course, I also make edits on other topics, but with respect to GL and penile anatomy, the verifiable knowledge is the presence of more than the DDV between the Buck's and the tunica albuginea, and the elaboration of the 3-D structure of the tunica albuginea.

The associated diagram was published long before the Encyclopedia of Reproduction, although a version of it was shared with the publisher. The right to the images is released by the right-holder to the Wiki Commons, not any other third-party.

Flyer22 Reborn stated prior to my involvement in the project that there's a lack of information on the male reproductive system, and I am glad to have made some contribution.

Orangelioncat ( talk) 08:18, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I noticed some images uploaded by User:Genglonghsu are marked for deletion. For right issue with respect to the images, consider this:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2164/jandrol.109.008532 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289991483_Penile_venous_surgery_for_treating_erectile_dysfunction_Past_present_and_future_perspectives_with_regard_to_new_insights_in_venous_anatomy

Four years ago, the right to a similar version of the image was already released under CC, and even prior to that, the original creator of the image gave permission for publication in a journal. Mys_721tx, anatomical knowledge is verifiable.

Orangelioncat ( talk) 09:55, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Citing the source on assertions that cannot be supported by the source is extremely inappropriate. Unless the assertion is very generic, there will not be a source that magically supports all existing claims in an article. Furthermore, Journal of Andrology is a subscription-based journal and upon publication the authors have transferred copyright to the American Society of Andrology. You cannot release figures under CC license when it is not yours anymore. - Mys_721tx ( talk) 13:30, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Admin review

Okay so we are looking at this edit by User:Orangelioncat. [10]

They cited this source to support the following text:

"Common complaints include a chronic soft erection insufficient for sexual intercourse, position-dependent erectile rigidity, difficulty achieving erections, difficulty maintaining erections without constant manual stimulation, loss of penile length and girth, and a soft glans of the penis during erection that is not fully engorged."

Orange can you provide below the exact text within the publication that you feel supports this? Best Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:03, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

The text should come from p.390 in the chapter "Male Reproductive Tract - Erection Abnormality." That could be found here: [11]- "...symptoms include insufficient rigidity, early detumescence, loss of morning erection, position dependent impotence, soft glans syndrome and gradual onset of early ejaculation." I do agree that citation needs to be precise. The medref box states that more medical references are needed, and I made my edits under the impression that the more the better without citing the exact texts and sources. My mistake. Thank you for point it out.
Orangelioncat ( talk) 17:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Orangelioncat, I want to know if you understand what I mean by being cautious of something that is only or mostly being stated by one researcher and that "we shouldn't just go by his word on penile matters," and "if he states something that conflicts with the rest of the literature, we should give the matter in-text attribution." WP:MEDRS is not the only thing to follow; so is WP:Due weight. Like I noted on my talk page to you, we, for example, give different reports on the urogenital diaphragm in the Urogenital diaphragm article because the literature is not consistent on it. We mention the dispute regarding the limbic system in the Limbic system article. I was concerned that you were prioritizing Long Hsu's and his colleagues' work over what the literature generally states. And I see that you and the Genglonghsu account are doing just that. You are only concerned with adding work and images by that researcher and his team. So you are definitely a WP:Single purpose account. You are not looking at what the rest of the literature might state on the matter. For example, what other source or sources state what Doc James cited above? If you don't see any other source stating that, it is best to directly attribute that text to the specific researcher(s) you are citing. And by that, I mean WP:In-text attribution. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 00:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn, Doc James, Mys_721tx,

I receive no financial or academic benefit from doing all these. Since my first edit's (which was one or two months ago, the issue of COI was already concluded), my edits were reactive in regard to the penile articles and GL. The GL page was inserted with an orphan tag, then considering your comment on the In-Text attribution, I then applied that policy to the article, by making links to that page. Also, the med ref box stated that more reference was needed. Then, I tried to put the the references (although some of them turned out to be inaccurate). Not just GL, I have also made citation on Culley C Carson's prosthesis article.

I will stop my editing on the penile articles for now, but I do demand fairness and respect, especially to those (including myself) new to Wikipedia editing. And Flyer22 Reborn: yes, your in-text attribution came from the issue of the "os analog." Albeit that it really just refers to the hard structure inside the glans, and which contributes to the rigidity and shape of an erect penis. It's not a theory but just a fact. If, like many other literature states, penile erection only relies on only the erectile tissue, sexual intercourse would not have been achieved so easily - the pointed and relatively hard structure/ the end of the distal ligament is important, and that has a great resemblance to the os penis (found in most other species but not us). Why make the conveyance of such a concept so difficult? Putting this consensus thing aside, Flyer22 Reborn, I am contributing to the content in this area, and a lack of that was supposed to be an issue to resolve?

Of the copy-right issue, I am aware that GL has declared on his website that all those images are licensed under CC. Just scroll down to the the very end of the page: [12].

As far as I know, the concept of the erection-related veins was first reported in a world meeting in Japan, and it's done by GL. The identification of those veins was mentioned in an Asian journal that no longer existed (called the New Taipei something), but that journal did not have all those detailed diagrams from GL's website. Also, the corresponding author knew little about the research, and became that because of his position in the institute; which is really not the point here. There was even fabrication on the date of reception.

I do not know if GL and others signed the right-release agreement to that ghost publisher. It's gone now anyway, so who does the right to that knowledge belong? If one can sort this out, I'm sure it'd be easier to know where to ask for permission if we are to disseminate this knowledge. If Hsu Androlgy can put all those images on their website and claims that their rights are released under CC, perhaps they already had it sorted out? If there is any issue, should you not direct the question to them, but not to this meow meow.

The Andrology article is an outcome report on the surgery, but not the anatomical concept, and the later mentioned article is not the original article/speech on the anatomical concept, either. With the open access journal (and for many other journals now), right is not as strict a matter, as sharing can be done when permission is granted, or when significant modification is done on an image.

I will stay away on the penile matter and GL, but keep an eye on how things develop.

Thanks so much.

Orangelioncat ( talk) 16:38, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Bridge Back to Life

Hello. Please refer to [13] and [14]. This is a recreation of a salted article under a different name. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 00:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I cut it from 17K to 4.3K. I am not really sure what is goign on there-- the article was a coatrack to discredit the DR. mentioned, or a promotional vehicle? I would have nominated it for Afd, but it has a few good refs. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 00:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Sent to AFD. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 04:41, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Hello. Seeing is believing. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 02:36, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Silverback Bikes

Hello. The user said they had a COI here. They were asked to formally disclose it here. The draft was rejected twice. And the article has now been created twice. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 00:14, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

FOI Online Awards

I looked up the organization giving out these awards, apparently its an anonymous organization that conducts anonymous polls and gives the awards,(stated on their site). There is almost no mention of the organization at all, except for a few sketchy sites . The article was AfD'ed and deleted 3 years ago, the creator of the article or someone related to it was particularly angry about deleting it(mentioned in the afd discussion).

The issue with the article is that many prominent celebs and some movie articles have this award listed in their awards section, some of them being added by people who edited FOI awards articles. It might be better if we remove all such occurrences of this non-notable award. Daiyusha ( talk) 16:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. I'll start deleting removing it from those pages. Might take a while. BubbaJoe123456 ( talk) 21:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

It might be helpful to treat this as possible spamming as well. In that regard, I'll list other editors that have added it as I help with cleanup. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@ Ronz:,@ BubbaJoe123456: If you intend to start on removing this spam, please look for the text "FOI" and "Films of India Online" when searching for it. Thanks for the response Daiyusha ( talk) 07:00, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Daiyusha: Thanks for the heads-up. I've been going through, think I'm over halfway done. FYI, should also look for "Films of India Online." Just doing FOI as a search term picks up a lot of cruft (Freedom of Information, mainly), but doing "FOI Online" works well. BubbaJoe123456 ( talk) 11:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

As an aside, are "News18 Reel Movie Awards" and "Bollywood Film Journalists Awards" similar? -- Ronz ( talk) 16:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

  • To help find them foionlineawards.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.foionlineawards.com -- Ronz ( talk) 15:57, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • This is disgusting. Like tell me, who are you people to decide whether its notable or not? Your job is to gather facts, not judge notability. Almost all of the film-industry accepted their results with happiness. First, you deleted the article three years ago saying "If known actors receive awards, it doesn't make the award known." They accepted it and moved on. Now you are deleting it from the Wikepedia page of actors an artists itself. This is the problem with accolades and their unfairness in industry, for India especially. Those who actually deserve and get some due, you take it away from them. When the actors themselves have accepted these awards, who gives you the right to remove it from the their achievement logs? You bunch of computer savy coders are going to decide what was a good achievement, and what not? May be, FOI would now need more time to get a public name, but this move won't hurt their intention, they'll continue with it anyway. Deleting their separate article was fair, but this movement of removing their traces form actors log is wrong to the artists itself. You are hurting the artist by removing a recognition they earned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A21F:9C4B:4051:C28:2E84:7360 ( talk) 17:53, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia editors are tasked with assessing whether content is relevant enough for Wikipedia's purposes to be mentioned in an article as well as whether something is Wikipedia notable enough for an article to be created about it. An editor's job is not to gather facts like a reporter, but only to seek out article content which accurately reflects what reliable sources (preferably independent and secondary) are saying/writing about something and then try to figure out a way to incorporate this content into the article in neutrally worded and balanced manner. When there are disagreements over things such as this, editors then follow Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and try to establish a consensus one way or another. You're more than welcome to participate in that discussion, but you'd be better off trying to show how mentioning the FOI awards is in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines than commenting on other editors. Moreover, the awards not being mentioned in actor WP:BLPs is not going to mean that the actor didn't receive the award and it won't harm the actor's career simply because the purpose of a Wikipedia article is not to promote the actor's career or to be a alternative profile page for the actor in the first place. The actor is free to post whatever they want about themselves or promote themselves however they like on their own personal websites or social media pages, etc., and FOI is free to promote the awards it gives out on its own websites and social media accounts, etc. regardless of whether any of this information is mentioned on Wikipedia. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 23:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
      • How is the Official website not a reliable source? And how is this even a case of conflict of interest? References are not made to support FOI's article, they are referenced to support facts on actors page. And someone above talks, there is no organisation named on the website, forgetting FOI Online Awards itself is the organisation (read their About us). NO doubt Wikipedia itself isn't a notable source for information, thanks to those illiterate editors. Do whatever you feel like in your world. I won't interfere anymore. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:4051:C28:2E84:7360 ( talk) 03:15, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
        • The website is a WP:PRIMARY source. Notability for Wikipedia's purposes is determined by mentions in WP:SECONDARY sources. MarnetteD| Talk 03:22, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
          • @ MarnetteD: It would've been a primary source, if the article was about the FOI itself. Here you are talking about artists' page, the information is not being referenced from Actors personal website (primary for this case), it's about sourcing it from website of award the artist earned, which is a secondary material for artist page.
            You want to discuss it in civil manner. Then let's start. Tell me why is it not notable. The very first line of discussion says "There is almost no mention of the organization at all, except for a few sketchy sites." This is so wrong, and manipulated information, and you have based the whole discussion on this basis. FOI Online Awards itself is the name of the organisation. About Us page on their website clearly mentions (if you can read) "FOI Online Awards (itself acting as a non-profit organisation) is an annual online poll, researched and organized by an anonymous team of film enthusiasts and cinema lovers, honouring the artists for their artworks." If you would have researched a little more, you'll find their is a reason why they are anonymous (read the Rules & Guidelines). Also, you have put this discussion under Conflict of Interest page. How is this even a case of conflict of interest? References are not made to support FOI's article, they are referenced to support facts on actors page. It's reasonable that they don't have sources to have their own article on Wikipedia, but its valid to quote them as sources to mention achievement of artists page. Think before you act! This whole discussion is based on the wrong statement quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:4051:C28:2E84:7360 ( talk) 03:35, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
            • So when you wrote "I won't interfere anymore" you didn't really mean it did you. MarnetteD| Talk 03:40, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
            • Wikipedia articles aren’t considered reliable sources for any purpose as explained in WP:WPNOTRS, except in rare cases where the subject is Wikipedia itself. Moreover, the burden rest upon those wanting to add content to an article to establish a consensus that it should be added, not the other way around. You’re involved in a content dispute with other editors and when that happens you should follow WP:DR. The best way to go about doing this is to convince others that adding it is in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines, not by insulting them. — Marchjuly ( talk) 03:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
              • @ Marchjuly: May be you are right about my tone. I apologize, but I am giving reasons too. Read them above. 1) The very first line of this discussion and the basis is wrong, which says the website don't give out the name of the organisation. FOI Online Awards itself is the name of the organisation. 2) Also, you have put this discussion under Conflict of Interest page. How is this even a case of conflict of interest? References are not made to support FOI's article, they are referenced to support facts on actors page. This is wrong to artists.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:4051:c28:2e84:7360 ( talk) 04:13, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                • If you feel that the reliability of the FOI’s official website is sufficient for citing a particular artist receiving one of its awards and others disagree, you can always seek additional input at WP:BLPN or WP:RSN. Those two noticeboards may actually be better suited for the direction this discussion seems to be heading. I didn’t put the discussion here; I just responded to something you posted. However, as I posted above, Wikipedia articles about artists aren’t written for the benefit of the artist; so, not including content about the awards an artist might have received cannot be wrong for the artist. Your argument rather should be whether including the content is appropriate for Wikipedia and it’s readers and not a case of WP:NOTEVERYTHING. While WP:NNC is true when it comes to article content, the notability of the FOI awards does come into play when deciding whether it’s worth mentioning and the general consensus with respect to articles like this seems to be to limit inclusion to only Wikipedia notable entries.
                  Finally, please try to WP:SIGN your posts since it will make the discussion easier to follow. Another reason to sign your posts is that WP:PINGs don’t work for unsigned posts. — Marchjuly ( talk) 04:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                  • @ Marchjuly: @ MarnetteD: @ BubbaJoe123456: @ Ronz: I apologize if I was rude, before. I understand Wikipedia has such policies, which restrict this particular subject’s inclusion. (1) I will try finding reliable sources for FOI's inclusion, but it won’t be of any use. Media houses have been deliberately ignoring the community of FOI Online Awards, because of their format, that has no monetary advantages. Their anonymity also have a reason, it’s not to create an ambiguity. In a way, you are working for those money-hungry media houses. You are definitely not working for something good, you are in fact a part of the bad politics yourself. (2) Another sad story is, our film industry still takes in Wikipedia profile (if we are lucky to have one or one related) as source of credibility. I am not related to the FOI community. FOI community actually detests Wikipedia as reliable source. I am one of the winners in one of the technical categories and also a part of a film which didn’t garner the deserved attention from the public. But FOI honoured our efforts, and now its removal from Wikipedia is actually a loss to my credibility in finding more work. It’s literally a loss to my resume. (3) Some of you even termed it as spam. No, it’s not a spam; we are contributing to mention something we earned, from hard-work. (4) It’s not even conflict of interest, we didn’t honour this to ourselves, FOI did. (5) We know Wikipedia isn’t a trusted source of gathering facts, but it itself doesn’t have that image in public. Whatever the topic is, a common internet surfer would firstly go to Wikipedia for information. (6) Even after giving this much explanation, I still stand by my point that this discussion is wrongly framed. The subject of this discussion is wrong. FOI Online Awards is a non-profit organisation and has a name. You cannot say, “the website didn’t give a name of the organisation.” And now if you are removing FOI’s traces based on a wrong-framed subject of a discussion, then the action is wrong too, and may I add, “a sign of illiterate and one lacking logic.” (7) We artists, from technicians to actors, have accepted it very much. If you editors think you all have higher precedence in writing our stories by pressing some buttons of your keyboard on Wikipedia, even higher than that of our hard-work we do on film sets, we stand with FOI and completely detest Wikipedia. You can’t be a source of information for our identity and work. Be happy working for it, anyway. (8) This is not a concluding statement. This doesn’t mean I will stop fighting for its inclusion. If in future, it eventually generates the ‘notability’ you are talking and are a self-proclaimed judge of, I won’t refrain from mentioning it here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.9.104.164 ( talk) 05:51, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                  • You want to use wikipedia to promote your organization, it doesn't matter how hard you work for it, advertising it for your own personal gain is completely against the spirit of wikipedia. THe film industry may be corrupt, but there is a reason why it considers wikipedia a reliable source, its because there are people who discuss and remove non-notable sources. I know its unfair, but unless your organization is mentioned in news articles, sponsored and conducts "events where people actually come and take the award" it cannot be considered to be on wikipedia. This is not a place for emerging artists to promote themselves, use youtube or linkedin for that. Daiyusha ( talk) 07:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                    • @ Daiyusha: "You want to use wikipedia to promote your organization, it doesn't matter how hard you work for it, advertising it for your own personal gain is completely against the spirit of wikipedia." Why did you say this? That's the problem, you are not interpreting it positively. When did I promote FOI? I am not promoting FOI, I am not a part of it. I am speaking on behalf of all the artist including me, who have earned this recognition. We are not promoting anyone, we want a mention that we have already earned. Don't make a separate page for FOI, but atleast give us artist their credit. And if you say only an event where people come and receive their award is a qualifying parameter, you are quite a part of the politics of being the unfair here. There are so many polls who have a mention on Wikipedia. Also, don't post such big shot remarks such as "This is not a place for emerging artists to promote themselves", we don't need promotion for ourselves, we have already earned recognition and we asking for its mention. You are probably too low on hierarchy to understand the film industry. And quite disrespectful talking to an artist about taking away its credit, with unreasonable remarks. You need secondary resources to create Wikipedia page, I also know that. If it was for creating an article for FOI, Official website won't be considered as a resource, fair. But it's about crediting the award at artists or films page, in those cases, official website of the award is definitely a secondary and valid resource. I have said this so many times above, don't you get this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a ( talk) 06:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                      • You guys know what? I contacted FOI Online Awards themselves few hour ago, and they quite convinced me how Wikipedia (and equally its self-proclaimed editors) is media oriented platform, and not logic or knowledge oriented. They already have plans for something big, and after which they say even if they get good media presence they would strive to remove all its mention from Wikipedia. They simply believe Wikipedia is as misguided as the Indian media. We were told not to seek notability for mention on a platform that itself has no factual credibility. So I guess, I will stand proudly with my art and hard work, and the recognition I received with it. After all, who are you guys to tell me my worth. In return to pseudo-disturbance (as you may call it) to your mass movement of removing "non-notable" information (I am laughing), I will help you guys :) This is isn't said with any hard feelings, I am genuinely coming on board to improve Wikipedia get rid information as vague as the subject of this discussion. Watch out this space for next few months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:A5F1:347D:7D63:378A ( talk) 08:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                      • There were still traces of this 'non-notable' award on the epic platform of Wikipedia, under the article of Rajkummar Rao, Ranveer Singh, Monali Thakur and Harshdeep Kaur. Removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:A708:7AE6:A5F1:347D:7D63:378A ( talk) 08:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                        • You know what, today I'm launching the Daiyusha awards, and the first recipient is you. And to give you credit I'll create an article for it. Your argument is just as vague as this. Daiyusha ( talk) 10:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                          • @ Daiyusha: But I am a nobody to accept it, I never did anything, by giving this analogy, you are basically saying all the recipients of this subject are vague, they also didn't do anything. I thought I offered an apology above and mended the rude tone, but I guess you yourself proved that you don't care and understand worth. You are basically not elligible to participate in discussions including notability and credibility. You define Wikipedia. Also, that's not how you talk to co-editors on Wikipedia, that's rude. You are about to get some more. Watch out.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a ( talk) 10:35, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
                          • @ Daiyusha: I think by this logic, go to Filmfare Awards 2019 wiki page and remove all references and information sourced from filmfare.com and Times of India (who owns Filmfare). That's blatant Conflict of Interest and article simply based on primary source. I didn't know about this clause on Wiki, there are many more. I can help you rectify them and make Wiki a better place.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7 ( talk) 10:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: @ Daiyusha and 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a: I suggest you both stop going back and forth at each other and go walk the dog. Trying to one up the other is not going to solve this dispute, but may lead to one of you posting something that you're going to end up regretting. This is not how disputes are resolved on Wikipedia. The longer this thread keeps getting, the closer it starts to move into WP:TLDR which means others are just going to just keep away instead of trying to figure out what you two are going on about. If there are no more COI issues to resolve, then let the thread die a natural death. If you want to discuss the reliability of the FOI website, then do so at WP:RSN. If you want to discuss each others behavior, then do so at WP:ANI.
    @2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7: Please start signing your posts. If you're not sure how to do that, then read WP:TILDE. As I posted above, you can't WP:PING other editors if you don't sign your posts. In addition, if possible try to use the same IP address when posting or even better consider creating an WP:ACCOUNT. FWIW, an IP account is actually less anonymous that a registered account since an IP address can usually geo-located. Another nice thing about a registered account other editors can WP:PING you (IP accounts cannot be pinged) and other editors will pretty much always know it's you they are addressing and not somebody else you just happened to log in from the same IP address. Finally, please carefully read through Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point because this is one of the fastest ways to end up being WP:BLOCKed by an administrator
    @Daiyusha: Please be careful not WP:BITE no matter how right you might be; after all, Wikipedia is not about WP:WINning.
    -- Marchjuly ( talk) 11:53, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
    • @ Marchjuly: Thankyou for the advice. I am still learning, I'll create an account soon. I just wanted help this issue if somehow I can. If its about wrong usage of primary sources in articles I wanted to help highlight many more such articles, one I quoted above was for Filmfare Awards, which is simply referencing articles from Filmfare and Times of India (who owns Filmfare). That's blatant conflict of interest. 378a and Daiyusha were in a heated arguement, and none of them looked wrong so I came in. They should discuss it, one of them came to giving rude remarks too, that was wrong.
      @ Daiyusha: I was talking if Tweets from artists thanking FOI may prove as supporting notability, then I can provide many of them.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7 ( talk) 12:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
      • No tweets won't be good enough for establishing notability, reliable sources are more likely to be news articles. I agree that things like filmfare are covered widely by Times group and other newspapers. But there would be atleast one news article in any one newspaper about FOI, that would be helpful. Daiyusha ( talk) 12:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
        • @ Marchjuly: I actually ended the discussion, and resorted to no more confrontation. I contacted FOI, and they said they had absolutely no interest in being mentioned on Wikipedia. Hence, I in fact even deleted some left out references to FOI on articles mentioned above (articles of Ranveer, Harshdeep, Monali and Rajkummar). The next comment that Daiyusha posted, was irrelevant with no explanation or debating confrontation. In fact it was quite rude and plain offensive, and made me question the actual intention of editors here. That's it.
          @ Daiyusha: As an artist and winner of FOI myself, its hurtful that you don't think its worthy to be mentioned in related articles. But that comment you posted, made me realise I actually don't deserve to be mentioned here.
          @ 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7: I am glad you came out in support. Yes, there are many celeb tweets that directly thank FOI for the honour and proves it has been acknowledged in the industry. Literally, that defines notability, I don't know about the Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a ( talk) 12:32, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
        • @ Daiyusha: Google news shows one result, which quotes one of the winners of FOI. For Filmfare I was saying, we need to change the references, because Times of India solely owns Filmfare, sourcing it is Conflict of Interest. I am sure we can find other sources too. We should do it before someone challenges it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7 ( talk) 12:41, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
          • Not really sure if COI applies to sources as well, it usually applies to editors. Because almost all company articles, including articles about Google, Microsoft etc will have their own sources. You can have primary references, the problem is you should not have "only" primary references, atleast one independent reliable source is needed, others can be primary sources. Daiyusha ( talk) 13:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
To the person responding about this - please be aware that none of your pings have worked. As has been mentioned above by Marchjuly you must sign your post with four tildes ~~~~ at the time you make the edit for editors to receive your ping. MarnetteD| Talk 00:44, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @IP 2405:204:a708:7ae6:a5f1:347d:7d63:378a and IP 2405:204:a708:7ae6:756a:9449:ae4d:66e7: If you're the same person trying to use multiple IP address to try and create the impression that you position is supported by multiple editors, or two different people trying to coordinate your edits to support the same position, then please stop doing this asap per WP:SOCK and WP:MEAT. I'm not posting this because your IP addresses are similar, and because both accounts seem to be unable to understand WP:SIGN, but because of these five consecutive edits within a span of a few minutes: #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5. There generally has to be a really good policy-based or guideline-based reason for one editor to edit/remove another editor's posts, but this really looks like someone was trying to hop from one IP to another to make it seems as if they were more than one person, getting confused about which account they were using, and then going back to fix things so as to continue the charade. The kind of behavior is not allowed at all; so, if that's what you've been doing, you need to stop it right away. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 01:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
    • @ Marchjuly: That's quite premature of you tell me that I am playing the dirty plot you've posted above. You should write thrillers! Never the less it's rude too. No, I didn't do it, and your logic of "five consecutive edits within a span of of a few minutes" makes no sense. There, I didn't sign it again! You may get me blocked, would love having peace in silence. RIP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:a117:2c2a:d5d5:7272:a945:3abf ( talk) 13:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
      • The only person who can really "get you blocked" is you. Editors don't get blocked because of what others say about them; they get blocked for their behavior or doing things which aren't otherwise in accordance with relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If you keep logging in and editing with a different IP each time (like you did with your last post above), others are not going to know for sure that it's the same person making the edits, which might in turn be mistaken as it not the being same person or the same person trying to appear to be someone else. It's not rude to point this out to you and show you how diffs can be used to find such behavior or even be mistaken for something inappropriate.
        As for signing your posts, it's not hard to click on ~~~~ in the task bar above the edit summary window after you finish your post and before you click "Publish changes". It makes things easier and not doing so just because you don't want to do so seems a bit WP:POINTy to me. Moreover, {{ ping}} will not work if you don't sign your posts, and others will not be notified that you've responded to whatever is being discussed. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 22:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Is it impossible for acupuncturists to have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing acupuncture?

At Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Acupuncture: not sure what to do here I asked the question "Is it true that according to the RfC cited, It is impossible for acupuncturists to have a conflict of interest with regard to content describing acupuncture?" More input on that question would be welcome. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 18:09, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Per that RfC, no, being an acupuncturist does not create a COI for acupuncture (and so on for other alt-meds). But yes, I'd say it's as impossible for an acu'ist to have a COI for acu as it is for a psychologist to have one for psychology, isn't it? As the RfC closers noted, WP doesn't recognize COI for "broad areas of interest or general competence. Thus, the proposal to single out alt-med practitioners in policy as having a COI is opposed."
I am about to ask the RfC closers for clarification, and I hope this won't take up any more (nor any less) time than it needs to. Happy editing. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 00:32, 9 April 2019 (UTC); added to quote 01:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC); update: closing admins notified [15] (one is on vacation and won't be able to comment for awhile) 01:38, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • no it is not impossible. However a change in policy is not necessary. Guidelines such as WP:COISOURCE provide advice for editing contributions, which may originate from from biased editors. If an editor cherry picks RS to push unduly positive info then that’s biased/POV editing. If an editor inserts links which promote specific practices or products then this is COI editing. A good example from my experience is having to shoot down the addition of fairly innocuous pieces of text which are sourced from obvious commercial sites in the article on interior design. These are added by editors who use link spam to describe interior design using arguably encyclopedic text while employing dubious sourcing techniques. Anyone frequently exhibiting this kind of behavior ought to be declaring a COI as their commercial aims are influencing their editing practices. This ought not to be mandatory however. I am an interior designer and wouldn’t dream of adding my company’s website address into the encyclopedia. Discretion is advised and current policies and guidelines would seem to be sufficient in this case. Edaham ( talk) 02:33, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Fully agree with the spirit of your comment, but it's based on a common misconception of COI. Promotional/biased edits don't cause COI; off-wiki connections do: see WP:COINOTBIAS. It has to do with how closely/specifically an editor is connected to the topic, so e.g. you'd have a COI for an article about your own business but not interior design generally -- no matter how you edited. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 04:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I think you didn't read what I wrote. I specifically highlighted the difference between bias and COI. Someone with the inclination and/or motivation to use the encyclopedia for promotional purposes because of their affiliation with an off-wiki entity has a COI on any article where their off-wiki objectives might influence their editing practices. If I, as an employee of foo-software add content to an article on foo-software, I have a COI. If I add link spam directing people to foo-software on an article about software in general, I have a COI. The differentiation between COI, bias and advocacy doesn't place any limitation on which areas of the encyclopedia the issue occurs, be it an article about foo or the subject to which your foo belongs. Edaham ( talk) 12:55, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Edaham: I believe you're right; I was thrown by your opening sentence. If you mean that one can have a COI for one's foo but not the non-foo aspects of their field, fully agree with that and the rest of what you said. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 17:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I am a former employee of Mattel, and I still consult for pretty much all of the major toy manufacturers. I have a COI, and do not edit the Mattel page. It turns out that engineers who have hands-on experience with producing electronics product at a rate of over 100,000 per hour 24/7 are hard to find. If I make each one a penny cheaper or more expensive that's $24,000 a day.
Not only do I not edit the Mattel page or the pages of any toy manufacturers I have worked for, if -- as is the case with Middle 8's and acupuncture -- our article on Toys said things that would lead a reasonable person to never buy a toy again, I would not edit that page, and I certainly would not edit the page to portray toys more favorably. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Specific edits for examples of such edits. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Guy M: I understand your point about financial connection, but I don't think you're taking into account that such connections can be tenuous enough to not rise to the level of a Wikipedia COI (potential conflict being a continuum, unlike say pregnancy). Ernst thinks that the financial COI for alt-meders tends to be small, and substantially outweighed by what he calls "quasi-evangelical convictions" that amount to a sort of idealogical COI, which of course on WP we call TE, advocacy et cetera.
Like your argument, that point was made in the pertinent RfC (see my !vote for example, and comment starting with the words "Ernst's concept"). Lots of arguments were made, and as you know, the "No" arguments prevailed, and I don't understand why you're making the "Yes" ones again when they're not specific to my case. You should be trying to argue why I have a greater financial interest than alt-meders in general, since the latter was already considered by the RfC. Are you going to do that, or just keep repeating general alt-med criticisms at the wrong forum for this? -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 17:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I am not quite sure why have the RfC closers singled out, we do not have any special knowledge which would be useful here. The result of the RfC was that an alt-med practitioner does not have a COI just because of the fact of them being an alt-med practitioner. They could still have a million of other reasons to have COI, or edit disruptively without having COI. (Not to be interpreted as judgement on the specific case, which I did not look into).-- Ymblanter ( talk) 05:24, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Ymblanter -- that's helpful. Since Guy Macon wanted input from "admins" I figured you three were good choices to interpret your own RfC closing statement. :-)
Two more questions if I may:
1) I think it follows that if an alt-med practitioner somehow does have a COI for content in their field, it's not because of their simply being an acupuncturist. Do you agree? (This is actually not obvious to all editors.)
2) Some are arguing that the RfC's finding is only a "general" one, and that just being an alt-med practitioner is still reason to accuse specific editors of COI. (Some are even justifying this stance with arguments that didn't prevail in the RfC, e.g. that alt-med practitioners should be singled out and treated differently). This strikes me as inappropriate -- effectively an attempt to bypass/ignore the RfC -- but what do you think?
Thanks again, Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 08:11, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I am sorry but I do not think I can say more than what I have already said.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 08:16, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
OK, we'll wait for others to comment. I'll add here that if, somehow, something besides having a profession can cause a COI for acupuncture or anything else, I stand corrected. My bigger concerns are those in my preceding comment, esp. bullet point #2. This thread should really be called "does Middle 6 have a COI" since Guy Macon is attempting to use AN/I to settle that [16] when this (if anywhere) is the proper place.-- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 09:21, 9 April 2019 (UTC); added last sentence 09:26, 9 April 2019 (UTC); ce 09:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
If you wanted this discussion to be about ""does Middle 8 have a COI" you should have made the claim that you have no COI. You did not. You claimed "it's not possible for an acu'ist to have a COI for acupuncture". [17] -- Guy Macon ( talk) 00:49, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Of course I claim I have no COI, because of the "No" finding of the RfC you started because of me. As one of the closers put it above, "An alt-med practitioner does not have a COI just because of the fact of them being an alt-med practitioner." Unless Aristotle was wrong, that major premise extends to acupuncturists, and hence to me. So I do not have a COI for acupuncture, (unless there's some other way to have one for a whole field, which I honestly can't imagine, can you? The same goes for any other acu'ist, but as much as you're focused on that "not possible" soundbite, it's rather a red herring.)
It shouldn't take multiple noticeboards and even ArbCom to grok this logic, should it?
Still waiting for you to explain why I might/should be an exception to that RFC. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 02:19, 11 April 2019 (UTC); minor add'n 02:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC), clarify improbable hypothetical 05:20, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that Guy M or anyone else said that you were an exception. This whole discussion came about because you removed the COI note from the Acupuncture talk page, and then asserted that it's not possible for an acupuncturist to have a COI in the area - I think this discussion is aimed at clarifying that point.
The RFC concluded that alt med practitioners don't automatically have a COI covering their field, but the closing statement also said that Existing policy, including WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:COI are sufficient to handle disruptive editing in this topic (emphasis mine) - so, the closers explicitly accepted that COI policy is relevant in this topic area. They went on to remind editors that any role or relationship outside of Wikipedia may undermine their primary role here of furthering the interests of the encyclopaedia and that editing articles directly in such situations is strongly discouraged. - so, COI may be a particular concern in this area. It is not the case that an acupuncturist will always have a COI with regards to all areas of acupuncture, but it is possible that they may have one in particular areas, and so should be cautious when editing about their field. It seems to me that the COI banner on the talk page is appropriate, in the light of the RfC closure.
My own professions (I've had two) create the potential for conflicts of interest. As a geophysicist, I used to work for a company that develops high-resolution 3D imaging sonars, competing with underwater video systems and diver inspections. I would feel quite comfortable contributing material to sonar articles in general, but I would stay well away from writing about the relative efficacy of sonar systems compared to other methodologies - I have a clear COI in that area. These days as a teacher, I work in an independent school - I wouldn't be worried about contributing to articles on education in general, but I would definitely avoid writing about any potential benefits of private versus state-funded education, no matter how reliable my sourcing was, because I recognise that I have a conflict of interest in that particular area. I think that would apply to anyone - including, but certainly not limited to, alt med practitioners - if your livelihood depends on people trusting in the efficacy of anything, I can't see how you could avoid having a conflict of interest when writing about that efficacy. GirthSummit (blether) 10:15, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Great comments. Several points, replying in reverse order:
  • First, re: "...if your livelihood depends on people trusting in the efficacy of anything, I can't see how you could avoid having a conflict of interest when writing about that efficacy": Of course there's a financial connection (much discussed in the RfC), and it tends to be stronger for alt-med, but is it strong/specific enough to create a COI on WP? Per the RfC it's got to come from something other than simply being a practitioner.
  • Next, on what I really mean: I wish the editor who opened this thread had titled it differently, because I've made clear that by "not possible to have COI" I mean "not possible by virtue of being an acu'ist", and that I know other factors still create COI. This could've been established at user talk, hence no reason for this post imo. (Also this, re the tag.)
  • Finally, re me and COI: it seems clear that Guy in fact is suggesting I could be an exception to the RfC when he says this (yet provides no fresh arguments). I've intentionally kept the discussion focused on acu'ists generally, but FWIW, due to heavy and unfortunate factors quite beyond my control, I haven't been able to practice for years (cf. my comments in userspace dating to 2015 [18] [19] and recently on this board [20]). I've never had the time to build a practice that turned a net profit, and the possibility of that ever happening keeps receding. If I'm honest with myself, it's realistically about zero.
Happy editing. -- Middle 8 ( t • c • privacy) 06:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC); ce for clarity 00:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Allen Blakemore (political consultant) ‎

I noticed that the user Redwhiteandboujee was inserting the following (unsourced) sentence into a number of articles: "...works with Allen Blakemore to effectively plan and execute political strategy." See, for example, here and here. When I looked into the user's contribution history, I noticed they had created the article Allen Blakemore (political consultant). This looks like a probable case of self-promotion. Marquardtika ( talk) 19:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I'd guess that it's WP:UPE. Regardless, it's blatant promotion. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Definitely blatant promotion,I'm inclined to believe he's edit his clients' articles to give himself more name recognition than being paid to edit. Best, GPL93 ( talk) 16:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Maya Stovall

−

The article was a stub a few days ago when I created it. A very savvy editor with a new account showed up and added many, many refs (in one case they had ten refs in a row). And I just noticed that new savvy editors marks all edits as "m" for minor. Seems like obvious COI and/or UPE editing. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

So, they are helping to improve the article by adding reference links, and you're calling notice to this as a problem? - Wacomshera ( talk) 14:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
It's clearly professional paid editing or COI-- only pros mark all the edits "M" to try to hide them. The account's first edit added ten properly formatted references with cite web, marked "minor". Does that not sound fishy to you? Calling out such obvious COI or UPE is appropriate here to alert the editor that we are suspicious of their neutrality. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 16:44, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, no -- I don't find the addition of properly formatted references (something that Wikipedians beg people to do at meetups and workshops) to an article that you created (and then complained about all of these reference citations being added to it) to be "obvious COI" or "suspicious". Frankly, your complaint strikes me as the more suspicious activity. - Wacomshera ( talk) 01:14, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Gotta stick up for Montreal here, this article is a straight up resume/autobio and he has good experience cleaning this garbage up. Refspam is an exceedingly common UPE tactic designed to trick less experienced editors into thinking an article is well sourced, when most of those sources are misleading or purely WP:ROUTINE. For example, the first three sources comprise: 2 interviews (vice and detroit news) and 1 article written by the subject. These cannot be used to establish notability or describe her work. There doesn't appear to be enough quality sources to establish notability, so I think taking this to AfD is warranted, searching for sources online finds some run of the mill stuff and articles about two different athletes with the same name. SWL36 ( talk) 00:48, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Not much point for AfD as she meets WP:ARTIST 4) d.: In multiple museum collections. I wholeheartedly agree on the tactics of UPE editors, which was the point of posting here. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:12, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Sami Yusuf

The user's talk page calls Sami Yusuf "our artist", evidently the user is one of Yusuf's agents. – Skywatcher68 ( talk) 15:47, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, they have already said they represent Yusuf's management at their talk page, and they're currently indef blocked for edit warring, block evasion and legal threats. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 15:53, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
This editor has unambiguously edited contrary to the COI guidelines, despite warnings. If this person returns to editing, either via more block-evasion or via an unblock, and the same pattern continues, I will be willing to take further action, but at present, in view of the block that Boing! said Zebedee has mentioned, there is nothing more to be done. The editor who uses the pseudonym " JamesBWatson" ( talk) 16:33, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


Two more of Yusuf's representatives have been added. – Skywatcher68 ( talk) 17:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Apparently there's been socking too – Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Mjahangir777. Bri.public ( talk) 17:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Fabrizio Boccardi

This editor has made a large amount of edits to the article in the past months, including adding excessive refs (one sentence has nearly 50). A connection seems likely. I have made no conclusions about the neutrality of the article, but 314 refs in such a short article is certainly suspicious. MB 05:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Potential COI editing by several (related) IPs

These IPs have recently been making several edits to New Zealand and Pacific Island-related pages, mostly to add a reference to a single recently-published book. At first glance (not having read the book), the reference appears to be at least somewhat relevant, but it seems likely that the IP editors are closely associated with the book in some way - e.g., its author or publisher. I have left a note about this on each of the IPs' Talk pages, but they have not responded. Ross Finlayson ( talk) 21:50, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Another IP:
Ross Finlayson ( talk) 22:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
It's almost every article that these 3 IPs have been editing They're too numerous too list. Ross Finlayson ( talk) 09:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Rsfinlayson:, I see what's going on now. This is bad. There might be a way to get the two links blacklisted so they can't keep getting added. I don't know if they can specify it past the top domain (in this case goodreads.com). try asking the Helk Desk if there's a way to request specific URLs to be added to spam list. Graywalls ( talk) 21:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

and... more
118.93.133.160 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
118.93.9.139 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Graywalls ( talk) 09:01, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

ClaudiaAtGuru

The username implies that the user works at Guru Studio. If that's true, this is a serious violation of WP:COI. The user edited the Guru Studio article for most times. The user also edited True and the Rainbow Kingdom article (the subject of which was produced by Guru Studio.) two times. The changes made by the user were already reverted. JSH-alive/ talk/ cont/ mail 08:04, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

The user's last edit so far was on 12 April 2019, and I left a {{ uw-paid1}} notice on 17 April 2019. Their next edits will determine any future action. -- Drm310 🍁 ( talk) 15:26, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Monica Helms

Given the username and the fact this user has been primarly editing this article I suspect the account could be the subject herself. User has not responded to COI warning I placed on the user's talk page and continues editing. I have placed COI templates on article has the account has extensively edited it. funplussmart ( talk) 01:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Blues America

Hello. Some context: Blues America is a radio series produced and hosted by Drew Verbis. The article Blues America was created on 15 April by User:OU133. It contained sentences such as "richly textured nonfiction narrative that delves deeply into the human experience" and loads of sources that supported very little of the article content. It was deleted yesterday, and just a few hours later, the article Drew Verbis was created by User:DrumSalad. This new article contains a section titled "Blues America" which is basically a copy/paste from the deleted article and loads of sources that support very little of the article content. Thanks and regards, Biwom ( talk) 00:25, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello! I know Drew personally and posted this article for him since I know about Wikipedia and have been doing it for some time now. I made sure to review it for promotional language and the like so that it would meet Wikipedia standards. I did not know that he had tried to have it posted before, so I wanted to know what I should do to be transparent about this issue and also what I can do in the future to let the Wikipedia community know that there is a COI. Im happy to answer any questions! Thanks! DrumSalad ( talk) 04:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
I cut some bits out of Drew Verbis that were promotional. Short story: don;t write articles for your firends. This one is very promotional. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 04:37, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
As a rule, your best bet is to simply avoid making any edits at all on topics where you have a COI — but that said, we do recognize that it's impossible for us to prevent people from trying. So you do also have the option of going through draftspace and submitting your draft for an AFC review, so that you'll get feedback from established Wikipedians on what kind of improvements might be necessary to make an article more neutrally worded and better-sourced. People with COIs aren't entirely forbidden from editing the article at all — for example, even Drew Verbis himself would be allowed to edit his article to correct a purely factual error — it just means that you have to be really careful not to step over the line into promotionalism, or adding personal information you know about him personally but can't reference to published sources at all. Bearcat ( talk) 02:48, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Ricardo Costa (filmmaker)

I have reason to suspect that Tertulius, a banned user who was the creator of all of the film articles listed above and has been a significant editor (although not the original creator) of the filmmaker's BLP, may have a direct conflict of interest with regard to these topics. The film articles are all basically advertisements rather than encyclopedia articles, and are referenced overwhelmingly to primary sources rather than reliable source media coverage — and the BLP is also referenced much more heavily to his own self-published content about himself rather than to reliable source coverage or analysis, and features significant passages of total flaming incoherence. ("In some way moved by the idea that explains one sentence of Marcel Mauss, a well-known French sociologist and anthropologist, ("There is more poetry in a grain of reality than in the brain of a poet"), certain Portuguese film-makers, especially after the Carnation Revolution, traveled around their country, from one end to another, camera in hand. With state funds or in co-production with the national broadcast TV station, the RTP, some made "engaged films" (cinéma engagé, i.e. political cinema), but never with lack of charm. Others make films in which reality, as an expression of actual events, appears with that poetical charge, as Mauss refers. Films shot with low budgets but in full liberty. Films portraying reality, a genre to which all those productions fit, would last for a few years and would generate important or even remarkable works, some of which were forgotten.")

I can also provide additional evidence — but I want to be careful about the outing rule, so I'll provide it separately and/or privately if needed rather than addressing it directly here.

I can see a plausible basis for notability here, so I don't want to just rush the articles straight to AFD if somebody's willing to work on cleaning them up, but as things stand the articles are too heavily advertorialized, and not reliably sourced nearly well enough, to just ignore — they need to be addressed, and either fixed or deleted, fairly urgently. Bearcat ( talk) 08:55, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Bearcat, all of them can be safely deleted as a combination of G11 + G12.
There is conclusive evidence about COI, in light of socks, web-hosting and other off-wiki evidence. ∯WBG converse 15:35, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Bearcat, also, there's a ptwiki CU match to RCfilms. You can easily detail the COI aspects without breaching the Outing guidelines. ∯WBG converse 15:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Okay. The other evidence I was cautious about disclosing here was basically the same stuff I listed in the SPI request: the attempt to smuggle Tertilius' past original research about "hybridity in docufiction" back into the docufiction article by means of an external link to a self-published "appendage" PDF stored in Ricardo Costa's website, which was literally word-for-word the exact same content. Clearly you're already aware of that, however, so I have nothing further to add beyond that. Bearcat ( talk) 15:52, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Amandadoyle543

Amandadoyle543, previously known as Birchmierassociates, appears to be an undeclared paid editor. Her articles are pure PR for often non notable subjects. Some come with official photos complete with OTRS permission from the clients supplied by her. They appear ready made adverts bombarded with usually bad sources. They exaggerate minor aspects and are commonly full of info not supported by the sources. Above is just a random sample of her spam.

Some with pics, Amy Dean Hoff [21] [22]m, Hoax (band), Katherine Taylor [23], Richard Ludlow [24], Matthew Carl Earl [25]. duffbeerforme ( talk) 12:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Presley Massara, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Presley Massara
Glory (2007 film), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glory (2007 film)
Natalie Marie Ames, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Natalie Marie Ames
Mercy Malick, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mercy Malick
Richie Stephens (actor), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richie Stephens (actor)
Minerva Vier, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minerva Vier
Some spam sent to afd. duffbeerforme ( talk) 12:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Diabetes Digital Media

Today, User:Jhrastafari moved Arjun Panesar from draft space. It was created on 1 April by User:ContributingWikiUser. It had been deleted in September 2017, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arjun Panesar. Yesterday, User:Jhrastafari created Diabetes Digital Media, the parent company of Diabetes.co.uk, which he created in March 2014‎. Arjun Panesar is a co-founder of both. Seems reasonable to infer that User:Jhrastafari and User:ContributingWikiUser are the same editor and that there is a conflict of interest. Edwardx ( talk) 15:05, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

VentureBeat

This user's only editing has been to add content from VentureBeat to other articles, usually written in a somewhat promotional style. Have reverted many of the recent additions, but they are extensive, and there may be other accounts involved. Edwardx ( talk) 12:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Responsive computer-aided design

All of this user's edits have centered around a single researcher, and have included references (including a PhD thesis) to that individual. The two articles created by this editor may be original research as well. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

VPN hype

There's been a number of problematic VPN articles lately. The active AfD on PureVPN seems to be wobbling on whether what I'd consider rather routine reviews constitute good sources or not. If it survives it will definitely need cleanup. Maybe this is of concern for this noticeboard. ☆ Bri ( talk) 17:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Inquiry on current best practice

As background, please read the note I left on the talk page of Yana Peel (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).

Yana is a friend who very keenly wishes that all proper procedure at Wikipedia be followed, and who is also keen to see some updates to her Wikipedia entry. Her page was tagged a few years ago with a conflict of interest editing tag - I don't have any direct knowledge of whether that was correct, but I think we can assume that it was correct at the time.

It is a common thing that someone edits Wikipedia with a COI, but more or less innocently just trying to help. Even in cases where the edits are a bit too promotional, I believe that this is also often (but not always) "innocent" in the sense that people are naturally prone to speak in a positive way about things they've achieved or done in their lives.

When something like this happens, the result is often an extended "punishment" (although nothing in Wikipedia should ever be punishment!) of a tag on the top of an article which languishes for years.

So here's my inquiry: what is best practice for someone who has a COI tag but wants to do the right thing, in terms of getting that tag removed and getting further edits done to an article?

I'm well aware that there are persistently annoying people who exhaust our patience with repeated efforts to "puff" their entries. That's also an interesting case, but it's not the sort of case I'm asking about right now! I'm talking about nice people.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@ Jimbo Wales: I would suggest it is you who have the conflict of interest. As you are aware, there is no punishment on Wikipedia, only prevention. Those COI tags help prevent disruptive editing and, for that reason, should remain there forever. We also don't have rules that apply to "persistently annoying people" but not "nice people". Such value judgments are subjective and suspect. Chris Troutman ( talk) 13:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
How do I have a conflict of interest on the general topic? I think there is no evidence to suggest that such tags "should remain there forever". That's just an obviously wrong position that only makes sense in a "life sentence punitive" way of thinking.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The COI tags help warn readers of problems with the neutrality of the article. If they want changes made, they should submit them on the talkpage thru the edit request system. COI punishments are preventative because they prevent the article from becoming promotional. We don’t give exceptions to the rules for “nice people”. End of discussion. — pythoncoder ( talk |  contribs) 14:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
No, we don't give exceptions to the rules for nice people, but neither do we seek to punish people for mistakes. You may have heard the expession "Assume good faith" - it's a core value of the Wikipedia movement.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Standard procedure is to use the talk page and propose changes. As for when 'removal' of a COI tag is warranted, it's when a consensus of editors agree that the current version of the page is fair and balanced, and that the edits from the person who was suspected to have a COI were reviewed as non-problematic, or when the problematic parts of those edits were expunged. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 16:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I'd recommend that editor begin a discussion in the article's Talk page. If no one responds, post a note in the Talk page of one or more relevant Wikiprojects. If that doesn't work, drop a note here.
The template shouldn't be used as a badge of shame or punishment; if another editor has reviewed the edits and made the appropriate changes - perhaps none - then the template should be removed. ElKevbo ( talk) 16:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Before we rush to do favors for "nice people", could someone please look into whether the following editors were coordinating their efforts to promote content related to Yana Peel?
  • User:Serpentine_gallery_press_dept (pre-dates Peel's tenure, but establishes a pattern)
  • User:Newcombe45 (seems keenly interested in Mr. and Mrs. Peel and Intelligence Squared, the company she helped purchase, which is headquartered in Newcombe House, at 45 Notting Hill Gate)
  • User:Outset.uk (edits only about Outset Contemporary Art Fund, co-founded by Yana Peel)
  • User:JLMLand (edits only about the artistic director under Yana Peel at Serpentine Galleries)
  • User:Vennietweek (edits only about Para Site, co-chaired by Yana Peel from 2010 to 2015)
  • User:Varez33 (edits only about Stephen Peel)
  • User:Natalia_Cherenkova (strangely only edits about an art collector, Faberge art, and TPG Capital -- Mr. Peel's firm)
And lastly, there is this. Does the fact that the Peels have donated at least $10,000 (perhaps $30,000) to the Wikimedia Foundation influence whether Wikipedians do a favor and remove from her biography a conflict of interest notice to readers and other editors? If so, which way does that influence go? Considering the various mysterious editors above, are we certain there is no further risk in seeing conflict of interest on the biographical article? - Wacomshera ( talk) 19:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
There is absolutely no reason why someone's donation history should ever matter to Wikipedia editing.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't think the donation matters, unless they get preferential treatment. And they are not getting preferential treatment, as is seen in the article. All Jimbo is asking is if someone can explain the current policy, and a request edit on the talk page. Seems pretty free of influence to me.

People are allowed to have friends. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
( arbitrary break)

Jimbo, thanks for asking the question here. It doesn't seem like you got a succinct reply. I think the answer is "This tag may be removed by editors who do not have a conflict of interest after the problem is resolved...", from Template:COI#When to remove. That textbook answer does seem to be aligned with my experience of how things work. Hope this helps. ☆ Bri ( talk) 19:36, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Per Bri's comment, and as a completely uninvolved party here in my living room far from the art world or Wiki headquarters, I made a dozen or so edits to reduce the promotional nature of the article. The tags are still there as they are valid. The article is still promotional and could use the eye of a more experienced editor. I don't see an issue with fixing an article in order to remove a tag and improve wiki qaulity, assuming notability, irregardless of where the request comes from. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


  • I'm wondering about sort of the same thing. Unlike other noticeboards, I see a lot of entries left open and hanging. A case I created , Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Outside_In_(organization) involves an organization that shows signs of a long-term (over a period of years), direct PR engagement by people with affiliation. I'm not sure how long the COI template should remain, but even after neutralization, I feel like this is one of those where something needs to remain on the long term. The latest edit was a reference to unionization being removed by an account that appears to be related to the organization even though the account owner said he was not "paid" or "directed" to make the edit. Basically, I think employees/interns/volunteers who edit on the company's computer or making the edits with consent of management ought to be considered "work related" activity and ought to subject to mandatory disclosure. If the edits are made by salaried staff, it's all too easy to claim they weren't paid "for editing wikipedia" but if that conduct is deemed acceptable work related use of time, then it would be within part of their job. Graywalls ( talk) 08:22, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Sure, but we are not here to punish system abusers; we're here to build a good encyclopedia. If a tagged article can be turned into a good, neutral article by editing, that is the optimal outcome. Think of any family or organization. Sh*t happens, but you move towards the main goal of your family or organization; you don't spend years punishing the kids or your employees. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
And we also can, and should, make a nuanced distinction between "system abusers" (who absolutely do exist) and people who have make mistakes in the past but now want to walk away with dignity.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
If article subject company has a tendency to do direct PR editing over a long time, a notice would serve to help readers informed to check edit history and be advised that changes made by the organization itself may continue to occur. It isn't "punishing" the organization. It's keeping readers informed. Graywalls ( talk) 08:36, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
If someone in your family has a history of violating your family's rules, sometimes an honest intervention is helpful before you naively accept an endorsement from their "friend" that they (and their spouse and their corporations that have also been violating the family's rules) are a "nice person" now. - Wacomshera ( talk) 13:24, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
I see your point but watchlists do that in the background. PR edits, we revert. Leaving tags on purpose for months or years and focusing on the abusers rather than article improvement is counterproductive. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 08:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi! Are you, or have you ever been, paid by anyone to edit wikipedia? Thanks! 199.247.44.10 ( talk) 05:57, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Hello Ohio! The answer is no and no. Did you forget to log in? ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Nope! Ohio, huh. Man, I get around. 199.247.44.10 ( talk) 06:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

The matter of connected and paid editing seems more pervasive than I was expecting. When I discovered connected editing at Outside In (organization), I thought it was a relatively isolated issue. Then, I found the same issue at Pride Northwest involving executive staff editing the page. As I click around categories, pages for my area, pages for local papers referenced within articles and mostly from just poking around, more such issues surfaced. Special interest group and an alternative newspaper publisher Street_Roots was added by the account named with its own own; and that of the executive editor (who is identified within cited sources). Then, I've found edits to an article from an IP originating in the article's company that was helping themselves to the article and adding things into the project list; formatting the layout in the way they want it laid out. That is one of the largest privately held company in Oregon Hoffman Construction Company. Are we to simply neutralize things and let it go on as if nothing happened whenever it happens? On Street Roots, the talk page already had a "connected contributor" tag, but people don't really look there. This is a great example of delayed discovery. I added this template since after reviewing evidence present, I had good faith reason to suspect UDPE. The template was met with resistance from another editor within hours who wanted the article sanitized and wanted the "branding" gone yesterday. Is it the current best practice to just wipe off contentious contents and let the template come down immediately? There seems to be no deterrent to this behavior as promotional contents would stay until caught, and if caught, all they have to do would be remove the contents and any marking of such attempt just vanish into the thin air for all practice purposes as people don't generally bother go digging in the edit history. Graywalls ( talk) 09:38, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Remove tag - I agree with Jimbo Wales, Headbomb & Bri - the tag is used when the article is problematic as a direct result of COI editing. When CE and other clean-up is performed to make the article compliant with WP:PAG (by at least one editor who is not connected), the tag should be removed. Leaving the tag makes the page seem less encyclopedic and more welcoming to COI editors in that we've created a placeholder for them, at which point we might as well include text like This article was presented to you by Outside Contemporary Art Fund...and maybe consider charging them for the space; a bit of hyperbole but close to reality nonetheless. Atsme Talk 📧 13:08, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
"Leaving the tag makes the page seem less encyclopedic and more welcoming to COI editors in that we've created a placeholder for them" This is not true; your opinion is wrong. Chris Troutman ( talk) 13:25, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
An opinion based on one's impression is neither right nor wrong. We're entitled to our own opinions, not our own facts. You can disagree all you want but you have no fact-based evidence that it's either not true or that it's wrong. Perhaps you should refresh your memory about the conditions under which we use and remove Template:COI. For removal, it clearly states: When to remove - This tag may be removed by editors who do not have a conflict of interest after the problem is resolved, if the problem is not explained on the article's talk page, and/or if no current attempts to resolve the problem can be found. Atsme Talk 📧 17:30, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Martin Eastwood

Might need more eyes on this ... the creator seems to be intent on describing this person in ways consistent with WP:Identifying PR. ☆ Bri ( talk) 17:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Hm. I tried going in and cleaning out some of the more egregiously poor material, and was almost instantly reverted by user:Anaxial, who has never edited the article before. More eyes needed indeed. 199.247.43.106 ( talk) 06:34, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
To be clear, I was only reverting the claim that Eastwood was a "professional attention-seeker." This claim was unsourced, and, to my mind, a potential BLP issue. It is no longer there, and I do not have an issue with the latest edit that I have seen. Anaxial ( talk) 06:37, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Copy that. El_C 06:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
It would have taken you just as much time and just as many clicks to just remove that bit as to revert my whole edit and thus restore unsourced information. Either way, I accept that your intentions were good. 199.247.43.106 ( talk) 06:42, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Rad Hourani

This article has existed for about ten years, initially in a poorly written and poorly sourced form that should never have survived basic new pages review. Several years later, however, the subject himself grabbed hold of the article and started trying to advertorialize the hell out of it, turning it very much more into an extension of his own self-published PR rather than a neutral or properly referenced encyclopedia article — and ever since then, the article's been subject to a constant tug of war between established Wikipedia editors trying to neutralize it and mostly anonymous IP numbers (but sometimes Floquirion, an SPA with no history of ever editing any other article but this) trying to readvertorialize it again. This has, most notably, included repeated attempts to add a dedicated "directory of quotations" section to highlight every Deep Thought by Jack Handy thing he ever said in an interview, which myself and other editors have continually reverted but which invariably comes back again in a new format weeks or months later. That's not the only kind of creeping advertorialism that's been happening here, but it is the most common recurring form.

In all this time, however, even the most neutral version of the article has never actually been well-sourced — it cites one deadlinked blog, one Q&A interview in which he's speaking about himself, and the absolute bare minimum (i.e. two pieces) of genuine reliable source coverage necessary to argue that the requirement for "multiple reliable sources" has been passed since two is technically multiple. (GNG, of course, is not actually as simple as "keep anything that meets or exceeds two footnotes", but takes into account additional factors like depth and range and context, and can be flunked by an article with 50 footnotes if they all fail one or more of those tests.)

I'm reluctant to actually take it to AFD, however, as there are plausible notability claims being made in the article — they just aren't being sourced properly, and the article clearly needs to be reviewed and monitored for COI and neutrality issues. But after having been involved in this continual tug of war for almost 3.5 years, I'm tired of it and not dispassionate enough anymore to fix it myself. Is anybody else willing to take a stab at it, and/or take it to AFD if the COI issue is just too incurable? Bearcat ( talk) 22:18, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

@ Bearcat: OK I see you have protected it with "admin access required". I've never seen that, is it necessary? I see lots of sources in GNews, and was planning to remove all the unsourced material and return it to stub. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:03, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I did that temporarily just to put a lid on the immediate problem, because what happened is that when I reverted an IP's new attempt to recreate the Deep Thoughts directory yesterday, and applied temporary autoconfirmed protection to limit IP edits, Floquirion immediately logged into the named account to unrevert the quotefarm back into the article again. Floquirion hasn't edited Wikipedia a ton, but they have edited Wikipedia enough to edit through the autoconfirmed level of semi-protection — so the only ways to arrest the quotefarm, while I brought the issue here for review, were either temporary full protection or longer-term extended-confirmed protection (which may still be necessary, but isn't normally used as the first line of defense.) If you want to work on the article, I can drop the protection level — I've lowered it to extended-confirmed, so you should now be able to make changes. Bearcat ( talk) 14:23, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I have made some cuts and added some sources. He is very notable. It took me minutes to find very high quality sources. He is also in the permanent collection of the Cooper Hewitt Design Museum in NYC. See article for source. (PS: Floquirion appears to be the article subject, based on claiming the self-portrait image that was in the article as "own work"). ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 14:52, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
IPs added and notified. They all seem to be coming from the same network. SPI? ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 06:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Wikibaji sockfarm

articles (partial)
sockfarm (partial)

I'll come back this evening and put more info here. There's an SPI that hasn't been quite closed yet. ☆ Bri ( talk) 03:31, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Additional spammers:

MER-C 18:46, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Favor to ask of any admin including MER-C : could you evaluate Special:Permalink/812581456 (by sock Apmsia) to the deleted version of Draft:Kraiburg TPE (by another editor sock Apmsia) and let us know if it is similar? I suspect another undiscovered sock related to this group. Bri.public ( talk) 20:45, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
They are indeed substantially similar. MER-C 20:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, I swapped the labels above (now struck/corrected) but I guess it doesn't really matter now. Bri.public ( talk) 21:39, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Just noting until this case gets merged, it is only visible at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SaiLeeKom - Bri.public ( talk) 16:44, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Sockfarm still active. New drawer of socks was just CU confirmed. ☆ Bri ( talk) 17:30, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Just blocked:
See [26].
See Adel Sajan/ Draft:Adel Sajan.
as suspected sockpuppets. MER-C 10:05, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft:Oluwatobi Oyinlola is back, courtesy of Dopedaniel. MER-C 17:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

GuestReady

This article may benefit from a closer look from some of the editors here. -- Randykitty ( talk) 09:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

The two primary editors of the article, Spacefrog and Spfr are CU confirmed as master and puppet, and have been blocked. Yunshui  雲 水 09:46, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Quarantined. Two older articles are listed above. MER-C 10:51, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_142&oldid=897150940"

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