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The result of the discussion was:merge.
✗plicit 07:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
✗plicit 07:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
All of the convict voyages of the five ships listed were before 1851.
Billingd (
talk) 23:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. The article title is at
Victoria (state) but that disambiguator would be anachronistic.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:55, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: A non-defining characteristic.
User:Namiba 22:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Just membership of organizations is hardly ever defining (in contrast to chairs, activists etc.)
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep This seems pretty similar to categorizing by political party for elected officials. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:46, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
No, it is not, politician is an occupation, while mere membership of an organization is not.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete -- We do not normally allow categories for being a member of an organisation. Even for political parties mere membership is not an appropriate basis for a category.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:15, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:North American rulers
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@
Lights and freedom: "rulers" is not well-defined. In the past months we have merged/renamed/split many rulers categories (mostly to monarchs, heads of government and heads of state), but that process has not concluded yet.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 03:58, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
In that case, no need to "downmerge", just delete this category. "Category:Monarchs in North America" is already in the right categories, and doesn't need to be included in a "rulers" category for the continent because the meaning of that is unclear anyway. The monarchs category can be put in "rulers" if that is necessary. —
Lights and freedom (
talk ~
contribs) 04:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support -- This name is better as these people were (or were trying to be) monarchs for life, whereas presidents are elected typically for a limited term.
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Category:Roman client rulers
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Support -- We may get the odd ruling queen, but does that matter?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose "client kings": we get quite a lot of ruling queens (I count 10 in the main category), which does matter, and there are some who had titles other than "king" (e.g.
Herod Antipas,
Lycomedes of Comana), which also matters. "Client monarch" probably works; I'm not totally convinced it's any better than "rulers", but understand that that's a discussion that has been had elsewhere many times. Currently, the main page for the topic is
List of Roman client rulers, which might be changed as a result of this discussion. 20:26, 14 May 2023 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Furius (
talk •
contribs)
The objection is relevant. I've boldened the alternatives.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Move to client monarchs. Rulers isn't precise, and I support monarchs > kings per Furius.
CLYDETALK TO ME/
STUFF DONE (please
mention me on reply) 23:28, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music by language family
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The result of the discussion was:delete.
✗plicit 02:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale on "Baltic music": this is just "
Category:Latvian music" + "
Category:Lithuanian music", which are defined by country, not by language family. "
Baltic psaltery" is just a set of musical instruments that is named after the geographic region they came from and have nothing to do with language families, even if these instruments could, you know, talk or write. Finally,
White voice is not specific to the Baltic languages, but a phenomenon throughout Eastern Europe.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale on "Turkic music": same as "Baltic music": this is all by country. Most items are already in the subcats. The few that don't have a subcat should be manually merged if possible, but the category as a whole cannot stand.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale for exempting
Category:Celtic music: Although very poorly and subjectively defined, this is an actual phenomenon with a main article:
Celtic music. It has much more to do with all sorts of ideas associated with "the Celts" or "the Celtic languages/cultures", but they are not necessarily defined by the Celtic languages. E.g. the example mentioned in the top right corner,
Rapalje, is a Dutch band which sings in Dutch and English, two Germanic languages. In practice, this means I'm just proposing to take it out of the
Category:Music by language family, because language family isn't what really defines this genre. (
The article itself seems actually quite confused what does define it.) It might be a good idea to try and purge this category from all by country categories, but then again, "Celtic nations" are mentioned in one of the 2 definitions, so I think I'll give it a pass and let others fix the confusion. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete all three per nom, i.e. including
Category:Turkic music which is not explicitly listed as part of the nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
How is it 'silly'? As long as editors gather content by loose linguistic families rather than actually defining specific cultures, it seems appropriate to parent these categories to language family categories.
Category:Turkic music only has content about specific cultures that happen to be part of the Turkic linguistic family, there is nothing whatsoever about a hypothetical unified Turkic music.
Crimean Tatar music and
Uyghur music have nothing in common in terms of music, even though these cultures are not countries today.
Place Clichy (
talk) 10:47, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Furius I must say I've never heard of Turkvision before. The whole category seems to be filled with unsourced or poorly sourced articles that may not meet
WP:GNG. (I've nominated
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of languages in the Turkvision Song Contest as a test case). The contest hasn't been held since 2020 and was already plagued by cancellations before that.
At any rate, I think your argument rests mostly on
WP:OR. As far as I could find
on the old official website which is now offline: "Turkvision is a new contest inspired of [sic] Eurovision song contest. While Eurovision focuses in [sic] European countries, Turkvision is a contest whose participants are mainly from Turkish [sic] countries or Turkish spoken [sic] countries." This is just about as ambiguous as it gets.
"The language in which the documentation regarding the organization, the final and the final presentation is drawn up is Turkish (Türkçe), as well as the language of the country of the contest participant."
"Participants who want to participate in the competition from Turkish (Türk) countries and communities, who are over the age of 18, are selected by the participating organizations by selection or direct voting method."
"Citizens from Turkish (Türk) countries and communities, as well as citizens of other countries of Turkish (Türk) origin, citizens with dual citizenship or those who have the right to reside in the country of residence are selected as participants."
"The songs should be read in Turkish (Türkçe) and Turkish dialects (Türk lehçelerin) and should be in the correct version."
I'm super confused as to what I am reading here. Although Türk can mean both "Turkish" and "Turkic", the former is more commonly called Türkçe and the latter is apparently more commonly indicated as Türki or Türkî. There are no clear criteria as to what Türk ülkeleri ve topluluklarından "Turkic/Turkish countries and communities" are. For example, there have been participants from European countries (e.g. Germany, Poland) where no Turkic languages could realistically be called "the language of the country of the contest participant". Presumably German and Polish were not used for "the documentation regarding the organization". This also makes it unclear who is eligible and who isn't. Lastly, the requirement that the song be "in Turkish (Türkçe) and Turkish dialects (Türk lehçelerin) and should be in the correct version" sounds to me as Turkish language chauvinism, as if it is the overarching "parent" of all Turkic languages, and the rest are just "dialects". For the record, the Turkish word for "language" is dil, plural diller. Taken literally, the scope of this contest is thus about
Turkish dialects, not
Turkic languages, unless they mean it in a chauvinistic, "Greater Turkish" kind of way that is probably quite offensive to a lot of non-Turkish (Türkçe) speakers of Turkic (Türkî) languages.
How this should count as evidence of the existence of "Turkic music"? I have no idea. The contest itself has barely ever existed, and has very poorly and narrowly defined what it is about. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:34, 20 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People of Germanic descent
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WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I am going to nominate that category tree for deletion after this one results in a Delete, don't worry. It's just not practical to do them all at once, I'm taking it in steps. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Floods in the United States
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Category:Ukrainian footballers banned from domestic competitions
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WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
S.A. Julio (
talk) 18:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, the list article suffices.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:31, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. There are competitions in other Russian occupied areas on the Ukrainian territory, particularly in portions of
Donetsk Oblast and
Luhansk Oblast. The article explains why there is sanctions against players which under normal circumstances would seem as discriminatory.
Aleksandr Grigoryev (
talk) 00:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete the list is fine, the category is not needed in addition to the list.
Joseph2302 (
talk) 08:32, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Earthquakes in the United States
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Category:SV Leibnitz Flavia Solva players
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Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the club is notable, plays below the fourth tier of Austrian football since 2011. The predecessor club SV Flavia Solva played in the second tier in the 1990s, but there is no article for either incarnation of the club.
Geregen2 (
talk) 16:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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GiantSnowman 18:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
DeleteWP:SMALLCAT and probably
WP:NOTDEFINING as the team plays in a low league, so almost none of its players will be notable.
Joseph2302 (
talk) 11:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Popstar to Operastar contestants
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Delete If they're already famous, this is just another performance. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! (British TV series) participants
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Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not
WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a
WP:PERFCAT--
woodensuperman 09:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete The whole premise is that they're already celebrities, so this isn't defining. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:51, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:9th-century princes in Kievan Rus'
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Category:13th-century Russian princesses
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The result of the discussion was:merge.
✗plicit 07:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
✗plicit 07:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
All of the convict voyages of the five ships listed were before 1851.
Billingd (
talk) 23:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. The article title is at
Victoria (state) but that disambiguator would be anachronistic.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:55, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: A non-defining characteristic.
User:Namiba 22:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Just membership of organizations is hardly ever defining (in contrast to chairs, activists etc.)
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep This seems pretty similar to categorizing by political party for elected officials. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:46, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
No, it is not, politician is an occupation, while mere membership of an organization is not.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete -- We do not normally allow categories for being a member of an organisation. Even for political parties mere membership is not an appropriate basis for a category.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:15, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:North American rulers
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@
Lights and freedom: "rulers" is not well-defined. In the past months we have merged/renamed/split many rulers categories (mostly to monarchs, heads of government and heads of state), but that process has not concluded yet.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 03:58, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
In that case, no need to "downmerge", just delete this category. "Category:Monarchs in North America" is already in the right categories, and doesn't need to be included in a "rulers" category for the continent because the meaning of that is unclear anyway. The monarchs category can be put in "rulers" if that is necessary. —
Lights and freedom (
talk ~
contribs) 04:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support -- This name is better as these people were (or were trying to be) monarchs for life, whereas presidents are elected typically for a limited term.
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Category:Roman client rulers
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Support -- We may get the odd ruling queen, but does that matter?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose "client kings": we get quite a lot of ruling queens (I count 10 in the main category), which does matter, and there are some who had titles other than "king" (e.g.
Herod Antipas,
Lycomedes of Comana), which also matters. "Client monarch" probably works; I'm not totally convinced it's any better than "rulers", but understand that that's a discussion that has been had elsewhere many times. Currently, the main page for the topic is
List of Roman client rulers, which might be changed as a result of this discussion. 20:26, 14 May 2023 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Furius (
talk •
contribs)
The objection is relevant. I've boldened the alternatives.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Move to client monarchs. Rulers isn't precise, and I support monarchs > kings per Furius.
CLYDETALK TO ME/
STUFF DONE (please
mention me on reply) 23:28, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music by language family
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The result of the discussion was:delete.
✗plicit 02:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale on "Baltic music": this is just "
Category:Latvian music" + "
Category:Lithuanian music", which are defined by country, not by language family. "
Baltic psaltery" is just a set of musical instruments that is named after the geographic region they came from and have nothing to do with language families, even if these instruments could, you know, talk or write. Finally,
White voice is not specific to the Baltic languages, but a phenomenon throughout Eastern Europe.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale on "Turkic music": same as "Baltic music": this is all by country. Most items are already in the subcats. The few that don't have a subcat should be manually merged if possible, but the category as a whole cannot stand.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale for exempting
Category:Celtic music: Although very poorly and subjectively defined, this is an actual phenomenon with a main article:
Celtic music. It has much more to do with all sorts of ideas associated with "the Celts" or "the Celtic languages/cultures", but they are not necessarily defined by the Celtic languages. E.g. the example mentioned in the top right corner,
Rapalje, is a Dutch band which sings in Dutch and English, two Germanic languages. In practice, this means I'm just proposing to take it out of the
Category:Music by language family, because language family isn't what really defines this genre. (
The article itself seems actually quite confused what does define it.) It might be a good idea to try and purge this category from all by country categories, but then again, "Celtic nations" are mentioned in one of the 2 definitions, so I think I'll give it a pass and let others fix the confusion. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete all three per nom, i.e. including
Category:Turkic music which is not explicitly listed as part of the nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
How is it 'silly'? As long as editors gather content by loose linguistic families rather than actually defining specific cultures, it seems appropriate to parent these categories to language family categories.
Category:Turkic music only has content about specific cultures that happen to be part of the Turkic linguistic family, there is nothing whatsoever about a hypothetical unified Turkic music.
Crimean Tatar music and
Uyghur music have nothing in common in terms of music, even though these cultures are not countries today.
Place Clichy (
talk) 10:47, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Furius I must say I've never heard of Turkvision before. The whole category seems to be filled with unsourced or poorly sourced articles that may not meet
WP:GNG. (I've nominated
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of languages in the Turkvision Song Contest as a test case). The contest hasn't been held since 2020 and was already plagued by cancellations before that.
At any rate, I think your argument rests mostly on
WP:OR. As far as I could find
on the old official website which is now offline: "Turkvision is a new contest inspired of [sic] Eurovision song contest. While Eurovision focuses in [sic] European countries, Turkvision is a contest whose participants are mainly from Turkish [sic] countries or Turkish spoken [sic] countries." This is just about as ambiguous as it gets.
"The language in which the documentation regarding the organization, the final and the final presentation is drawn up is Turkish (Türkçe), as well as the language of the country of the contest participant."
"Participants who want to participate in the competition from Turkish (Türk) countries and communities, who are over the age of 18, are selected by the participating organizations by selection or direct voting method."
"Citizens from Turkish (Türk) countries and communities, as well as citizens of other countries of Turkish (Türk) origin, citizens with dual citizenship or those who have the right to reside in the country of residence are selected as participants."
"The songs should be read in Turkish (Türkçe) and Turkish dialects (Türk lehçelerin) and should be in the correct version."
I'm super confused as to what I am reading here. Although Türk can mean both "Turkish" and "Turkic", the former is more commonly called Türkçe and the latter is apparently more commonly indicated as Türki or Türkî. There are no clear criteria as to what Türk ülkeleri ve topluluklarından "Turkic/Turkish countries and communities" are. For example, there have been participants from European countries (e.g. Germany, Poland) where no Turkic languages could realistically be called "the language of the country of the contest participant". Presumably German and Polish were not used for "the documentation regarding the organization". This also makes it unclear who is eligible and who isn't. Lastly, the requirement that the song be "in Turkish (Türkçe) and Turkish dialects (Türk lehçelerin) and should be in the correct version" sounds to me as Turkish language chauvinism, as if it is the overarching "parent" of all Turkic languages, and the rest are just "dialects". For the record, the Turkish word for "language" is dil, plural diller. Taken literally, the scope of this contest is thus about
Turkish dialects, not
Turkic languages, unless they mean it in a chauvinistic, "Greater Turkish" kind of way that is probably quite offensive to a lot of non-Turkish (Türkçe) speakers of Turkic (Türkî) languages.
How this should count as evidence of the existence of "Turkic music"? I have no idea. The contest itself has barely ever existed, and has very poorly and narrowly defined what it is about. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:34, 20 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:People of Germanic descent
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WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I am going to nominate that category tree for deletion after this one results in a Delete, don't worry. It's just not practical to do them all at once, I'm taking it in steps. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Floods in the United States
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Category:Ukrainian footballers banned from domestic competitions
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S.A. Julio (
talk) 18:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, the list article suffices.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:31, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. There are competitions in other Russian occupied areas on the Ukrainian territory, particularly in portions of
Donetsk Oblast and
Luhansk Oblast. The article explains why there is sanctions against players which under normal circumstances would seem as discriminatory.
Aleksandr Grigoryev (
talk) 00:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete the list is fine, the category is not needed in addition to the list.
Joseph2302 (
talk) 08:32, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Earthquakes in the United States
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Category:SV Leibnitz Flavia Solva players
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Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the club is notable, plays below the fourth tier of Austrian football since 2011. The predecessor club SV Flavia Solva played in the second tier in the 1990s, but there is no article for either incarnation of the club.
Geregen2 (
talk) 16:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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GiantSnowman 18:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
DeleteWP:SMALLCAT and probably
WP:NOTDEFINING as the team plays in a low league, so almost none of its players will be notable.
Joseph2302 (
talk) 11:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Popstar to Operastar contestants
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Delete If they're already famous, this is just another performance. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! (British TV series) participants
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Nominator's rationale: As these people were already famous this is not
WP:DEFINING and therefore nothing more than a
WP:PERFCAT--
woodensuperman 09:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete The whole premise is that they're already celebrities, so this isn't defining. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:51, 13 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:9th-century princes in Kievan Rus'
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Category:13th-century Russian princesses
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