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I am neutral to whether apply to suggested merge or the reverse merge (not being a native English speaker) but we should avoid to have two categories for this topic.
Robby (
talk)
09:43, 12 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Voskepar
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Category:Museums in Dilijan
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Category:Comics navigational boxes purge
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Nominator's rationale: This is a really strange category and I've never seen anything like this before. Honestly, I'm not sure if I even understand what it's supposed to do, but the purpose appears to be listing which templates use navboxes related to comics that aren't in a predefined list. This is done by putting a big switch block with different page names in different navboxes in tons of templates with a list of pages the template is supposed to go on and otherwise it will be put in this category (check out {{The Atom}} or {{Alien/Clear}} for examples). This is confusing and generally a maintenance nightmare since it requires several confusing edits in several places every time the navbox is modified or added to a new page and from what I can tell how this should be used isn't documented anywhere.
I've placed a note at
WT:COMICS so we can get to here from some people editing in the area. I'm happy to clean up this mess if this is deemed unnecessary and if this is something that's actually in use I'm sure I can come up with a less horrible way to do it. --
Trialpears (
talk)
20:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You're probably correct, it's just doing the reverse in places because of a missing pipe. I've never heard of that tool before but I like it! --
Trialpears (
talk)
03:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Finnish Jehovah's Witnesses
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Category:Finnish Indologists
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Category:Latvian Egyptologists
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Category:Estonian Baptist missionaries
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Category:Latvian Lutheran hymnwriters
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Category:People from Tsav, Armenia
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Category:Houses in X, Massachusetts
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Category:Homeland Security Investigations
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Nominator's rationale:Eponymous category for a topic without enough spinoff content to warrant an eponymous category. Looks are deceiving here, because the eponym itself has had to be removed from the category as it's still in draftspace (but it's minimally referenced to primary and unreliable sources, and thus not on track to pass AFC review anytime soon) -- but there's only one other "spinoff" article here, which isn't enough. And since we already have ‹The
templateCategory link is being
considered for merging.›Category:United States Department of Homeland Security, which the one article here is already in alongside this, the investigations department doesn't have a pressing need for its own divisional subcategory with only one or two articles in it.
Bearcat (
talk)
13:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Requesting permission to continue to add to this draft to further flesh out HSI, its investigative mission, and its components before deletion. The United States Department of Homeland Security category page includes one sub-bullet on HSI. HSI is the 2nd largest investigative agency in the United States.
SimpleGov (
talk)
01:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:11th-century BC Kings of Israel (united monarchy)
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Support: Per nom's rationale, and also this being a hypothetical state with deeply uncertain dating and therefore inappropriate to assign in part or in full to any particular century - that would be putting the cart before the horse.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
08:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom and Iskandar323. I have my doubts about the century categories because the dating is uncertain, but that's an issue for a next step. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
23:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian travel websites
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Category:Lithuanian synthpop groups
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Category:People associated with David
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Category:Years of the 18th century in the Southern Netherlands
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Comment -- I would question the correctness of any 1795-1814 categories in this tree as the Southern Netherlands were at the time part of France. No problem with post-1815 categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alfa Romeo aircraft engines
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Armbrust should have cited C2D which is exactly this. Regardless if the links are piped or not, the article is at
Alfa Romeo Avio and categories follow the parent article name, not the piped links that may or may not be used.
Gonnym (
talk)
10:03, 1 March 2023 (UTC)reply
C2D supports the current names of these categories by being unambiguous and having long standing stability (15 years plus).
WP:CATNAME also supports their current titles. Convoluted category names trip up Hotcat and also don't align with their matching navbox templates which have been carefully created to be intuitively added to articles by the aviation project over many years.
Oppose Anachronistic to Alfa engines that were designed and built pre-1941, they were designed and built by
Alfa Romeo, only one engine type was produced by
Alfa Romeo Avio, the RA 1000 which wiki:en has no article for as it was simply a license-produced
Daimler-Benz DB 601.
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fiat aircraft engines
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Oppose Proposal would introduce an unnecessary foreign word disambiguator against CATNAME point 2 (use standard article title naming convention). Category follows the parent language
wikipedia category (Categoria:Motori aeronautici Fiat) and the CZ wiki
Kategorie:Letecké motory Fiat, both very clearly translate to 'Fiat aircraft engines'.
These categories were carefully created to intuitively follow their
Commons categories, in other cases the Commons category has been created to follow the Wikipedia:en category where it was created afterwards. This greatly eases category/image navigation and removes multiple error messages where there are mismatches between wiki:en categories, Commons categories and Wikidata entries (dissimilar named categories are placed in a maintenance category, highlighting that there is a mismatch, undesirable and easily avoided). By far the best option is to follow long established convention.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)18:40, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:General Electric aircraft engines
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Oppose Clearly not the common name, where the parent article is used it is piped in most cases to the short and common form. Anachronistic name for pre-2005 products which the majority are.This should not be a speedy nomination.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)09:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, anachronistic to pre-2005 products, GE engine production started around 1942. Noting that GE will apparently change the engine division name again in 2024 involving a change of article title and category title if renamed (where the 'General Electric' prefix is timeless). Category was not renamed by consensus at
the previous CfD in 2012.
There may be some confusion in these nominations, the prefix is the common name of the company and 'aircraft engines' is merely the plural form of
aircraft engine, i.e. the company has not been incorrectly taken to be General Electric Aircraft Engines, the nominator's first language would appear not to be English.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)18:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Gnome-Rhône aircraft engines
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This opposed rational should be ignored. Debating the "anglicised common name" should be done at the article level and not on category pages which should match them.
Gonnym (
talk)
11:38, 2 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Engines in this category are from three distinct but related companies and are grouped together for convenience, any product before 1915 is not a Gnome et Rhone product as the article and
navbox both explain. According to the logic being applied here there should be three parent company articles and three categories for their products, following that route would no doubt result in a proposal to merge the articles and categories to arrive back at the current sensible arrangement that has been in place for many years. No rationale should be ignored in discussions, it could be perceived as belittling editors, particularly experienced ones.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)05:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Nimbus: objections on this Speedy page can be overruled where it is clear from precedents that the nomination would gain consensus if taken to a full discussion.
In this case "Gnome-Rhône" is used for the engine lines;
Gnome et Rhône is used for the company except in 3 articles (Gnome-Rhône 14M, SNECMA 14R and Gnome-Rhône Mistral Major). I would have thought using "et" ("and") would be better than the hyphenated form for a category covering 3 companies. But the hyphenated form is used even for the article by a few other-language Wikipedias.
[1] Also, this is one of a series of contested nominations. I would therefore not process it as a valid Speedy nomination. –
FayenaticLondon11:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:33, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian snowboarders
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Merge, I do not think this is a smallcat exception: most nationalities do not have a subcat of their own and a number of siblings may be nominated for merger too.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian sausages
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Merge, I do not think this is a smallcat exception: most nationalities do not have a subcat of their own and a number of siblings may be nominated for merger too.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian restaurateurs
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Merge, I do not think this is a smallcat exception: most nationalities do not have a subcat of their own and a number of siblings may be nominated for merger too.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian powerlifters
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Category:Lithuanian post-punk music groups
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Category:Lithuanian plastic surgeons
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Category:Buildings and structures in Malanje
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I am neutral to whether apply to suggested merge or the reverse merge (not being a native English speaker) but we should avoid to have two categories for this topic.
Robby (
talk)
09:43, 12 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Voskepar
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Category:Museums in Dilijan
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Category:Comics navigational boxes purge
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Nominator's rationale: This is a really strange category and I've never seen anything like this before. Honestly, I'm not sure if I even understand what it's supposed to do, but the purpose appears to be listing which templates use navboxes related to comics that aren't in a predefined list. This is done by putting a big switch block with different page names in different navboxes in tons of templates with a list of pages the template is supposed to go on and otherwise it will be put in this category (check out {{The Atom}} or {{Alien/Clear}} for examples). This is confusing and generally a maintenance nightmare since it requires several confusing edits in several places every time the navbox is modified or added to a new page and from what I can tell how this should be used isn't documented anywhere.
I've placed a note at
WT:COMICS so we can get to here from some people editing in the area. I'm happy to clean up this mess if this is deemed unnecessary and if this is something that's actually in use I'm sure I can come up with a less horrible way to do it. --
Trialpears (
talk)
20:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You're probably correct, it's just doing the reverse in places because of a missing pipe. I've never heard of that tool before but I like it! --
Trialpears (
talk)
03:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Finnish Jehovah's Witnesses
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Category:Finnish Indologists
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Category:Latvian Egyptologists
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Category:Estonian Baptist missionaries
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Category:Latvian Lutheran hymnwriters
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Category:People from Tsav, Armenia
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Category:Houses in X, Massachusetts
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Category:Homeland Security Investigations
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Nominator's rationale:Eponymous category for a topic without enough spinoff content to warrant an eponymous category. Looks are deceiving here, because the eponym itself has had to be removed from the category as it's still in draftspace (but it's minimally referenced to primary and unreliable sources, and thus not on track to pass AFC review anytime soon) -- but there's only one other "spinoff" article here, which isn't enough. And since we already have ‹The
templateCategory link is being
considered for merging.›Category:United States Department of Homeland Security, which the one article here is already in alongside this, the investigations department doesn't have a pressing need for its own divisional subcategory with only one or two articles in it.
Bearcat (
talk)
13:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Requesting permission to continue to add to this draft to further flesh out HSI, its investigative mission, and its components before deletion. The United States Department of Homeland Security category page includes one sub-bullet on HSI. HSI is the 2nd largest investigative agency in the United States.
SimpleGov (
talk)
01:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:11th-century BC Kings of Israel (united monarchy)
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Support: Per nom's rationale, and also this being a hypothetical state with deeply uncertain dating and therefore inappropriate to assign in part or in full to any particular century - that would be putting the cart before the horse.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
08:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom and Iskandar323. I have my doubts about the century categories because the dating is uncertain, but that's an issue for a next step. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk)
23:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian travel websites
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Category:Lithuanian synthpop groups
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Category:People associated with David
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Category:Years of the 18th century in the Southern Netherlands
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Comment -- I would question the correctness of any 1795-1814 categories in this tree as the Southern Netherlands were at the time part of France. No problem with post-1815 categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alfa Romeo aircraft engines
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Armbrust should have cited C2D which is exactly this. Regardless if the links are piped or not, the article is at
Alfa Romeo Avio and categories follow the parent article name, not the piped links that may or may not be used.
Gonnym (
talk)
10:03, 1 March 2023 (UTC)reply
C2D supports the current names of these categories by being unambiguous and having long standing stability (15 years plus).
WP:CATNAME also supports their current titles. Convoluted category names trip up Hotcat and also don't align with their matching navbox templates which have been carefully created to be intuitively added to articles by the aviation project over many years.
Oppose Anachronistic to Alfa engines that were designed and built pre-1941, they were designed and built by
Alfa Romeo, only one engine type was produced by
Alfa Romeo Avio, the RA 1000 which wiki:en has no article for as it was simply a license-produced
Daimler-Benz DB 601.
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fiat aircraft engines
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Oppose Proposal would introduce an unnecessary foreign word disambiguator against CATNAME point 2 (use standard article title naming convention). Category follows the parent language
wikipedia category (Categoria:Motori aeronautici Fiat) and the CZ wiki
Kategorie:Letecké motory Fiat, both very clearly translate to 'Fiat aircraft engines'.
These categories were carefully created to intuitively follow their
Commons categories, in other cases the Commons category has been created to follow the Wikipedia:en category where it was created afterwards. This greatly eases category/image navigation and removes multiple error messages where there are mismatches between wiki:en categories, Commons categories and Wikidata entries (dissimilar named categories are placed in a maintenance category, highlighting that there is a mismatch, undesirable and easily avoided). By far the best option is to follow long established convention.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)18:40, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:General Electric aircraft engines
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Oppose Clearly not the common name, where the parent article is used it is piped in most cases to the short and common form. Anachronistic name for pre-2005 products which the majority are.This should not be a speedy nomination.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)09:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, anachronistic to pre-2005 products, GE engine production started around 1942. Noting that GE will apparently change the engine division name again in 2024 involving a change of article title and category title if renamed (where the 'General Electric' prefix is timeless). Category was not renamed by consensus at
the previous CfD in 2012.
There may be some confusion in these nominations, the prefix is the common name of the company and 'aircraft engines' is merely the plural form of
aircraft engine, i.e. the company has not been incorrectly taken to be General Electric Aircraft Engines, the nominator's first language would appear not to be English.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)18:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Gnome-Rhône aircraft engines
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This opposed rational should be ignored. Debating the "anglicised common name" should be done at the article level and not on category pages which should match them.
Gonnym (
talk)
11:38, 2 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Engines in this category are from three distinct but related companies and are grouped together for convenience, any product before 1915 is not a Gnome et Rhone product as the article and
navbox both explain. According to the logic being applied here there should be three parent company articles and three categories for their products, following that route would no doubt result in a proposal to merge the articles and categories to arrive back at the current sensible arrangement that has been in place for many years. No rationale should be ignored in discussions, it could be perceived as belittling editors, particularly experienced ones.
Nimbus(Cumulusnimbusfloats by)05:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Nimbus: objections on this Speedy page can be overruled where it is clear from precedents that the nomination would gain consensus if taken to a full discussion.
In this case "Gnome-Rhône" is used for the engine lines;
Gnome et Rhône is used for the company except in 3 articles (Gnome-Rhône 14M, SNECMA 14R and Gnome-Rhône Mistral Major). I would have thought using "et" ("and") would be better than the hyphenated form for a category covering 3 companies. But the hyphenated form is used even for the article by a few other-language Wikipedias.
[1] Also, this is one of a series of contested nominations. I would therefore not process it as a valid Speedy nomination. –
FayenaticLondon11:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Company names vary over time, brand names do not. These engines are always categorised - and their articles titled - according to the brand, not by the corporate registration of the moment. Wikipedia needs to respect the real world here, and not go off on some daft head-trip inspired by its belly-button fluff. — Cheers,
Steelpillow (
Talk)
19:33, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian snowboarders
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Merge, I do not think this is a smallcat exception: most nationalities do not have a subcat of their own and a number of siblings may be nominated for merger too.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian sausages
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Merge, I do not think this is a smallcat exception: most nationalities do not have a subcat of their own and a number of siblings may be nominated for merger too.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian restaurateurs
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Merge, I do not think this is a smallcat exception: most nationalities do not have a subcat of their own and a number of siblings may be nominated for merger too.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lithuanian powerlifters
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Category:Lithuanian post-punk music groups
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Category:Lithuanian plastic surgeons
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Category:Buildings and structures in Malanje
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