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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This is the only category in the parent ( 15th-century actors ), which isn't helpful for navigation
Mason (
talk)
22:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Free and open-source software programmed in C
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Category:List of railroad of the United States by state or territory
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Category:Australian mid-20th century modern painters
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Category:Musicals originally directed by George Abbott
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Nominator's rationale: As at
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 December 22#Category:Musicals directed by George Abbott (where note that both Abbott and Robbins have been tried before, making those two recreations of previously deleted categories), this is a
non-defining characteristic that's essentially a
WP:PERFCAT. Unlike films, theatrical plays can have literally hundreds or thousands of new productions, each with a different director -- but they aren't more defined by who directed the first production than by who directed the second, third, fifth, five hundredth or ten thousandth productions. (Also, plays can sometimes have small regional productions in smaller theatre markets before working their way up to the Broadway/West End level — meaning that a play's first production and its fame-making major-theatre-mecca production aren't necessarily always the same thing, rendering "originally directed" categories effectively unmaintainable for accuracy.) So until all of these were created in the past couple of weeks, we simply didn't have any comprehensive scheme of categorizing stage productions by the identity of their directors, first or otherwise -- and, again, we already deleted the only prior attempt to start a new one. Noteworthy productions can certainly be listed in the directors' articles, if they aren't already, but it isn't a useful or defining point of categorization.
Bearcat (
talk)
17:06, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi Bearcat. I would respectfully disagree. Directors are absolutely crucial in theatre during the development of a work because that is when the script is still evolving. I believe most histories of theatre works would support this. For instance, Mike Nichols was absolutely crucial to the evolution of Neil Simon's plays when Nichols directed it. Jerome Robbins, Hap Prince and George Abbott were frequently considered co-creators of musicals they directed. This is indeed reflected in the fact they typically get a permanent royalty for these plays. The original directors have only been listed when they are major directors and where the directors definitely directed the first productions. I absolutely take your point that directors should be not credited where they did not do the first perfomannce (eg Mike Nicols directed the Broadway debut of many plays that had been performed elsewhere - these are not included). I feel the entries for many plays and musicals on wikipedia are under-categorised, and categorising them by director, if the director is key, could be extremely useful. (I should also add I appreciate that you made your points with conciseness, grace and courtesy!)
Britfilm (
talk)
10:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The problem is that Wikipedia editors do not typically pay attention to nuanced usage notes, and simply add articles to any category they think applicable and walk away without making any effort to see if they're doing it wrong. So people would absolutely add any play ever directed by Mike Nichols at all to his category if he directed the production they'd heard of, without undertaking any investigation of whether he actually directed the first production or not — which makes the categories unmaintainable, because we have no viable way to ensure that the category only gets used correctly and never gets used incorrectly.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:45, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment (no oppose), I do not think that
WP:PERFCAT applies because that is typically used to discourage categorization by performance rather than to discourage categorization of performances.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, thank you Marcocapelle - the intent was to limit categorisation to where the director was involved in the inception of the work. For instance, it would be silly to categorise directors of works by, say, Shakespeare. But for directors involved in the original productions of work, I feel it would be very useful. Thank you.
Britfilm (
talk)
10:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sikhism in the United States by state
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Nominator's rationale: Only covers two states and not heavily populated; contains one category and two articles respectively. Delete the first two and merge the remaining with parent categories.
Omnis Scientia (
talk)
15:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:1816 Illinois Territory elections
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Category:American people of Mexican descent by state
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Nominator's rationale: Has only one category which, in turn, has only two. Delete the two parent categories and mergedual merge the two subcats with their respective state categories the categories mentioned.
Omnis Scientia (
talk)
11:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bahá'í Faith in the United States
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Category:Japanese pages
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Tamil and Punjabi ethnicity was defining for the characters' ancestors who lived in India and Pakistan, but for someone living in the United States it is rather trivial.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
00:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Assassinated Caribbean monarchs
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Category:Immigrant ships to Western Australia
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Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü SK
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Category:Muslim women
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Category:Muslim women musicians
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Category:Muslim women by occupation
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This is the only category in the parent ( 15th-century actors ), which isn't helpful for navigation
Mason (
talk)
22:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Free and open-source software programmed in C
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Category:List of railroad of the United States by state or territory
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Category:Australian mid-20th century modern painters
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Category:Musicals originally directed by George Abbott
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Nominator's rationale: As at
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 December 22#Category:Musicals directed by George Abbott (where note that both Abbott and Robbins have been tried before, making those two recreations of previously deleted categories), this is a
non-defining characteristic that's essentially a
WP:PERFCAT. Unlike films, theatrical plays can have literally hundreds or thousands of new productions, each with a different director -- but they aren't more defined by who directed the first production than by who directed the second, third, fifth, five hundredth or ten thousandth productions. (Also, plays can sometimes have small regional productions in smaller theatre markets before working their way up to the Broadway/West End level — meaning that a play's first production and its fame-making major-theatre-mecca production aren't necessarily always the same thing, rendering "originally directed" categories effectively unmaintainable for accuracy.) So until all of these were created in the past couple of weeks, we simply didn't have any comprehensive scheme of categorizing stage productions by the identity of their directors, first or otherwise -- and, again, we already deleted the only prior attempt to start a new one. Noteworthy productions can certainly be listed in the directors' articles, if they aren't already, but it isn't a useful or defining point of categorization.
Bearcat (
talk)
17:06, 25 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi Bearcat. I would respectfully disagree. Directors are absolutely crucial in theatre during the development of a work because that is when the script is still evolving. I believe most histories of theatre works would support this. For instance, Mike Nichols was absolutely crucial to the evolution of Neil Simon's plays when Nichols directed it. Jerome Robbins, Hap Prince and George Abbott were frequently considered co-creators of musicals they directed. This is indeed reflected in the fact they typically get a permanent royalty for these plays. The original directors have only been listed when they are major directors and where the directors definitely directed the first productions. I absolutely take your point that directors should be not credited where they did not do the first perfomannce (eg Mike Nicols directed the Broadway debut of many plays that had been performed elsewhere - these are not included). I feel the entries for many plays and musicals on wikipedia are under-categorised, and categorising them by director, if the director is key, could be extremely useful. (I should also add I appreciate that you made your points with conciseness, grace and courtesy!)
Britfilm (
talk)
10:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The problem is that Wikipedia editors do not typically pay attention to nuanced usage notes, and simply add articles to any category they think applicable and walk away without making any effort to see if they're doing it wrong. So people would absolutely add any play ever directed by Mike Nichols at all to his category if he directed the production they'd heard of, without undertaking any investigation of whether he actually directed the first production or not — which makes the categories unmaintainable, because we have no viable way to ensure that the category only gets used correctly and never gets used incorrectly.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:45, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment (no oppose), I do not think that
WP:PERFCAT applies because that is typically used to discourage categorization by performance rather than to discourage categorization of performances.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, thank you Marcocapelle - the intent was to limit categorisation to where the director was involved in the inception of the work. For instance, it would be silly to categorise directors of works by, say, Shakespeare. But for directors involved in the original productions of work, I feel it would be very useful. Thank you.
Britfilm (
talk)
10:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sikhism in the United States by state
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Nominator's rationale: Only covers two states and not heavily populated; contains one category and two articles respectively. Delete the first two and merge the remaining with parent categories.
Omnis Scientia (
talk)
15:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:1816 Illinois Territory elections
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Category:American people of Mexican descent by state
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Nominator's rationale: Has only one category which, in turn, has only two. Delete the two parent categories and mergedual merge the two subcats with their respective state categories the categories mentioned.
Omnis Scientia (
talk)
11:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bahá'í Faith in the United States
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Category:Japanese pages
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Tamil and Punjabi ethnicity was defining for the characters' ancestors who lived in India and Pakistan, but for someone living in the United States it is rather trivial.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
00:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Assassinated Caribbean monarchs
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Category:Immigrant ships to Western Australia
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Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü SK
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Category:Muslim women
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Category:Muslim women by occupation
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