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Nominator's rationale: Appreciate Magnovvig for setting up these categories recently, but a couple issues with the names: BCC is an abbreviation, which
we should avoid, and
Crystal habit is the wrong terminology (habit refers to the outside of a crystal, rather than the structure of the atoms themselves). This also applies to similar categories in
Category:Crystallography. 〈
Forbes72 |
Talk 〉
22:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Seems mostly reasonable. Speechifying that this is a category for chemical elements will help keep the scope of the categories clear. (it will exclude compounds like
Tungsten carbide which are part of the hexagonal crystal system, but belong to a different structure type) The parent category should be instead
Category:Chemical elements by crystal structure, though. As I mentioned above, these categories are not crystal habits (such as Acicular, Amygdaloidal, Bladed, etc). These categories look vaguely like crystal families, crystal systems, lattice systems, or Bravais lattices, but under any of those categorizations, diamond cubic would not be distinguished from other face-centered cubic structures. On the other hand, trigonal is too broad a category to be a structure type, so there are definitely overlapping and mutually contradictory systems here. This will take more changes to fix, but your suggestion is an improvement on my original proposal. 〈
Forbes72 |
Talk 〉
20:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lists of violent incidents in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
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Nominator's rationale: To match the content of the category. In the past, pages in this category were named as "List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, YYYY". Now that they're renamed, the category should be too.
Triggerhippie4 (
talk)
21:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:University towns
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Category tree with subjective and poorly defined inclusion criteria. A
college town is not just any and every town or city that happens to have a college or university -- it's a very particular type of place where the college or university is more or less the town's entire raison d'être, because the place's economy is structured almost entirely around the university and/or student-oriented services like bars and restaurants. But the problem is that there's no precise or objective definition of how to determine whether or when any given place is sufficiently "dominated" by its university to actually be a true university or college town, so this tree has a tendency (despite repeated cleanup efforts) to indiscriminately collect every populated place that has one or more universities or colleges at all -- even places like Auckland, Barcelona, Berlin, Bucharest, London, Los Angeles, Madrid, Montreal, New York City, Paris, Rome, Toronto or Vienna, which are far too economically diversified to meet the proper definition of a "university town", regularly get filed here, and only sometimes get removed. (The same issue also affects the associated
List of college towns, which is a constant hotbed of editwarring over whether the global megacities can be labelled as "college towns" or not.) We just can't keep categories whose inclusion criteria are this vulnerable to subjective interpretation: in the absence of a precise and quantifiable standard to measure the exact line at which a place has become a "university town", we can't let inclusion come down to differences of personal opinion about what the term even means. (Note that a prior discussion in 2018 failed on procedural grounds, because the parent category was nominated in isolation without any of the country-specific subcategories being batched along with it.)
Bearcat (
talk)
18:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment: I intentionally wanted to discuss this at
WikiProject Europe before nominating anything for deletion. Europe has a long history of universities, older than the rest of the world, and I wanted to hear clarification on how the term "university town" is used among Europeans. I thought it possible that a "university town" or "university city" may be used for a city with a historic university, similar to how
cathedral city is used in the UK. It may be beneficial to sort this way for European countries, even if not for the rest of the world. —
Lights and freedom (
talk ~
contribs)
20:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete, with the specific criteria of a college town a list would be more suitable (but a different list than currently exists). University town is usually interpreted more broadly as a town or city with a university (as the current list illustrates) but that is not a very defining characteristic of a city.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:52, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Are London, Detroit and Paris university towns? New York City? Do not even get me started with places that house institutions of higher learning that do not have any or much residential housing. Also in the US are Honover, New Hampshire and Williamsburg, Virginia university towns since the institutions there have the name college? In American speech the term is "College town", partly because in general American speech people are said to "got to college" whether it is a college or a university. Arguably
Ephraim, Utah is a college town, by any use of the term that considers the impact of the higher education instution and it housing out of town students on the place, yet
Snow College is a junior college. Arguably Ephraim, Utah is more defined by this characteristic than
Salt Lake City, Utah which has the most fully functioning university in the state, with the only medical school. This is not defining enough of the time to be worth categorizing by. The people who came up with this list concept have not thought out three big issues. 1-the number of online only instituions, 2-the number of institutions in truly large cities, where the city is little effects by it and 3-the effects of multi-campus institutions. They have also not dealt with two smaller issues 4-the effects of a place being a commuter school, such that the exact city it is located in being not very defining to it. 5-the effects of university housing being in a different city than the university, either formally owned university housing (I think the University of California, Berkeley owns some housing that it places students in in
Albany, California, so is Albany a university town because it has that housing even though it has no university? and then there are other cases where significant numbers of people who are students at a place move to a surrounding city, for example I have known enough
Wayne State University students who chose to live in
Royal Oak, Michigan as students there to argue that Wayne State has a significant influence on Royal Oak. I have also known multiple Wayne State Students who moved from other states and took up residence in
Sterling Heights, Michigan. BYU with its Samuelsonian stringent limits on where single students can live off campus one would not expect this issue to come up, but the allowed exception for living with relatives means that you have BYU students who are resident in multiple cities in Utah Valley, and some other colleges I think have this issue even more. Many of these nuances can be captures in a list, and of course even better in articles, but they do not make for this being defining to many of these cities. This becomes even more true when we realize some of these cities existed for a long time before they ever got a university.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
12:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Infectious disease-related lists
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Category:COVID-19 pandemic-related lists
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Category:Songs written by Edna Osser
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That name won't work either, since there are ten bani, ten satang, etc coins in there. I'd agree that it needs changing to a more neutral name, but I'm unsure what.
Grutness...wha?21:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cyprus–Northern Cyprus relations
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Category:United States flag flying days
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Delete A
flag flying day is a day when government buildings are required to fly the national flag. The creator of this category also created the following:
IMO, this fails
WP:TRIVIALCAT because the flag-flying status is hardly significant for what consists mostly of holidays. I don't think the parent
Category:Flag flying days should be deleted, as it consists mostly of lists of flag flying days. All of these countries already have such a corresponding list. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
14:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The thing is, what govt buildings? For instance... military bases require the flag to be flown on D-Day, VJ Day, and VE Day. Fathers Day has never been a flag flying day but Mothers Day has. I put my own flag out for all those days, but a requirement? The category seems very subjective plus none of the holidays listed mention in their parent articles that you fly the flag with a listed source, so they are being put in the category with no merit as to why.
Fyunck(click) (
talk)
22:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep, these days are enacted as days when the US flag should fly. The days are listed in
flag of the United States, where you can find references too. You give no real reason why you want it deleted, ’strange’ is no reason. It is not trivial, this is the kind of information people look for in an encyklopedia or a calendar.
Ove Raul (
talk)
23:26, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep, these are days enumerated in law when the flag should be flown by government agencies. Many people in the country who has a flag pole also observe flag days. As has been said, it is relevant information in an encyclopedia.
Dagrqv (
talk)
14:12, 8 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep for procedural reasons as nominator did not give a policy-based reason for deletion, so this whole discussion falls under
WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If the result is to delete, then these categories should be turned into lists as
RevelationDirect has suggested above before they are deleted. —
Jkudlick ⚓
(talk)16:58, 8 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Category:Albums produced by Bangladesh (record producer)
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Oppose. There is no guidance or rule that says categories should have corresponding articles, only that that if there is both they should match. There are plenty of member articles to these 3 categories to make them a useful contribution to the categorisation scheme. I do wonder why the article was deleted, Bangladesh has made quite a contribution to music. --
Richhoncho (
talk)
07:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose - afd is an unsatisfactory venue as the suggested searches use the phrase "Bangladesh (record producer)" which returns no results, unsurprisingly. Other searches are dominated by the country Bangladesh, as might be expected. Searches on Shondrae Crawford, the actual name, return all sorts of results, such as grammy winning. Indeed the substantial contents of these 3 categories would suggest that the person is notable.
Oculi (
talk)
09:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Category:Songs written by Bangladesh (record producer)
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Oppose. There is no guidance or rule that says categories should have corresponding articles, only that that if there is both they should match. There are plenty of member articles to these 3 categories to make them a useful contribution to the categorisation scheme. I do wonder why the article was deleted, Bangladesh has made quite a contribution to music. --
Richhoncho (
talk)
07:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Category:Song recordings produced by Bangladesh (record producer)
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Oppose. There is no guidance or rule that says categories should have corresponding articles, only that that if there is both they should match. There are plenty of member articles to these 3 categories to make them a useful contribution to the categorisation scheme. I do wonder why the article was deleted, Bangladesh has made quite a contribution to music. --
Richhoncho (
talk)
07:44, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:People with Guillain–Barré syndrome
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Not many people die of GBS but it is very traumatising. But in general its not sensible to categorise people by disease - even if its a disease which kills them.
Rathfelder (
talk)
23:13, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:People with Lyme disease
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Nominator's rationale: Appreciate Magnovvig for setting up these categories recently, but a couple issues with the names: BCC is an abbreviation, which
we should avoid, and
Crystal habit is the wrong terminology (habit refers to the outside of a crystal, rather than the structure of the atoms themselves). This also applies to similar categories in
Category:Crystallography. 〈
Forbes72 |
Talk 〉
22:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Seems mostly reasonable. Speechifying that this is a category for chemical elements will help keep the scope of the categories clear. (it will exclude compounds like
Tungsten carbide which are part of the hexagonal crystal system, but belong to a different structure type) The parent category should be instead
Category:Chemical elements by crystal structure, though. As I mentioned above, these categories are not crystal habits (such as Acicular, Amygdaloidal, Bladed, etc). These categories look vaguely like crystal families, crystal systems, lattice systems, or Bravais lattices, but under any of those categorizations, diamond cubic would not be distinguished from other face-centered cubic structures. On the other hand, trigonal is too broad a category to be a structure type, so there are definitely overlapping and mutually contradictory systems here. This will take more changes to fix, but your suggestion is an improvement on my original proposal. 〈
Forbes72 |
Talk 〉
20:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lists of violent incidents in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
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Nominator's rationale: To match the content of the category. In the past, pages in this category were named as "List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, YYYY". Now that they're renamed, the category should be too.
Triggerhippie4 (
talk)
21:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:University towns
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Category tree with subjective and poorly defined inclusion criteria. A
college town is not just any and every town or city that happens to have a college or university -- it's a very particular type of place where the college or university is more or less the town's entire raison d'être, because the place's economy is structured almost entirely around the university and/or student-oriented services like bars and restaurants. But the problem is that there's no precise or objective definition of how to determine whether or when any given place is sufficiently "dominated" by its university to actually be a true university or college town, so this tree has a tendency (despite repeated cleanup efforts) to indiscriminately collect every populated place that has one or more universities or colleges at all -- even places like Auckland, Barcelona, Berlin, Bucharest, London, Los Angeles, Madrid, Montreal, New York City, Paris, Rome, Toronto or Vienna, which are far too economically diversified to meet the proper definition of a "university town", regularly get filed here, and only sometimes get removed. (The same issue also affects the associated
List of college towns, which is a constant hotbed of editwarring over whether the global megacities can be labelled as "college towns" or not.) We just can't keep categories whose inclusion criteria are this vulnerable to subjective interpretation: in the absence of a precise and quantifiable standard to measure the exact line at which a place has become a "university town", we can't let inclusion come down to differences of personal opinion about what the term even means. (Note that a prior discussion in 2018 failed on procedural grounds, because the parent category was nominated in isolation without any of the country-specific subcategories being batched along with it.)
Bearcat (
talk)
18:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment: I intentionally wanted to discuss this at
WikiProject Europe before nominating anything for deletion. Europe has a long history of universities, older than the rest of the world, and I wanted to hear clarification on how the term "university town" is used among Europeans. I thought it possible that a "university town" or "university city" may be used for a city with a historic university, similar to how
cathedral city is used in the UK. It may be beneficial to sort this way for European countries, even if not for the rest of the world. —
Lights and freedom (
talk ~
contribs)
20:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete, with the specific criteria of a college town a list would be more suitable (but a different list than currently exists). University town is usually interpreted more broadly as a town or city with a university (as the current list illustrates) but that is not a very defining characteristic of a city.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:52, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Are London, Detroit and Paris university towns? New York City? Do not even get me started with places that house institutions of higher learning that do not have any or much residential housing. Also in the US are Honover, New Hampshire and Williamsburg, Virginia university towns since the institutions there have the name college? In American speech the term is "College town", partly because in general American speech people are said to "got to college" whether it is a college or a university. Arguably
Ephraim, Utah is a college town, by any use of the term that considers the impact of the higher education instution and it housing out of town students on the place, yet
Snow College is a junior college. Arguably Ephraim, Utah is more defined by this characteristic than
Salt Lake City, Utah which has the most fully functioning university in the state, with the only medical school. This is not defining enough of the time to be worth categorizing by. The people who came up with this list concept have not thought out three big issues. 1-the number of online only instituions, 2-the number of institutions in truly large cities, where the city is little effects by it and 3-the effects of multi-campus institutions. They have also not dealt with two smaller issues 4-the effects of a place being a commuter school, such that the exact city it is located in being not very defining to it. 5-the effects of university housing being in a different city than the university, either formally owned university housing (I think the University of California, Berkeley owns some housing that it places students in in
Albany, California, so is Albany a university town because it has that housing even though it has no university? and then there are other cases where significant numbers of people who are students at a place move to a surrounding city, for example I have known enough
Wayne State University students who chose to live in
Royal Oak, Michigan as students there to argue that Wayne State has a significant influence on Royal Oak. I have also known multiple Wayne State Students who moved from other states and took up residence in
Sterling Heights, Michigan. BYU with its Samuelsonian stringent limits on where single students can live off campus one would not expect this issue to come up, but the allowed exception for living with relatives means that you have BYU students who are resident in multiple cities in Utah Valley, and some other colleges I think have this issue even more. Many of these nuances can be captures in a list, and of course even better in articles, but they do not make for this being defining to many of these cities. This becomes even more true when we realize some of these cities existed for a long time before they ever got a university.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
12:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Infectious disease-related lists
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Category:COVID-19 pandemic-related lists
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Category:Songs written by Edna Osser
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That name won't work either, since there are ten bani, ten satang, etc coins in there. I'd agree that it needs changing to a more neutral name, but I'm unsure what.
Grutness...wha?21:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cyprus–Northern Cyprus relations
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Category:United States flag flying days
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Delete A
flag flying day is a day when government buildings are required to fly the national flag. The creator of this category also created the following:
IMO, this fails
WP:TRIVIALCAT because the flag-flying status is hardly significant for what consists mostly of holidays. I don't think the parent
Category:Flag flying days should be deleted, as it consists mostly of lists of flag flying days. All of these countries already have such a corresponding list. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
14:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The thing is, what govt buildings? For instance... military bases require the flag to be flown on D-Day, VJ Day, and VE Day. Fathers Day has never been a flag flying day but Mothers Day has. I put my own flag out for all those days, but a requirement? The category seems very subjective plus none of the holidays listed mention in their parent articles that you fly the flag with a listed source, so they are being put in the category with no merit as to why.
Fyunck(click) (
talk)
22:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep, these days are enacted as days when the US flag should fly. The days are listed in
flag of the United States, where you can find references too. You give no real reason why you want it deleted, ’strange’ is no reason. It is not trivial, this is the kind of information people look for in an encyklopedia or a calendar.
Ove Raul (
talk)
23:26, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep, these are days enumerated in law when the flag should be flown by government agencies. Many people in the country who has a flag pole also observe flag days. As has been said, it is relevant information in an encyclopedia.
Dagrqv (
talk)
14:12, 8 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep for procedural reasons as nominator did not give a policy-based reason for deletion, so this whole discussion falls under
WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If the result is to delete, then these categories should be turned into lists as
RevelationDirect has suggested above before they are deleted. —
Jkudlick ⚓
(talk)16:58, 8 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Category:Albums produced by Bangladesh (record producer)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Oppose. There is no guidance or rule that says categories should have corresponding articles, only that that if there is both they should match. There are plenty of member articles to these 3 categories to make them a useful contribution to the categorisation scheme. I do wonder why the article was deleted, Bangladesh has made quite a contribution to music. --
Richhoncho (
talk)
07:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose - afd is an unsatisfactory venue as the suggested searches use the phrase "Bangladesh (record producer)" which returns no results, unsurprisingly. Other searches are dominated by the country Bangladesh, as might be expected. Searches on Shondrae Crawford, the actual name, return all sorts of results, such as grammy winning. Indeed the substantial contents of these 3 categories would suggest that the person is notable.
Oculi (
talk)
09:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Category:Songs written by Bangladesh (record producer)
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Oppose. There is no guidance or rule that says categories should have corresponding articles, only that that if there is both they should match. There are plenty of member articles to these 3 categories to make them a useful contribution to the categorisation scheme. I do wonder why the article was deleted, Bangladesh has made quite a contribution to music. --
Richhoncho (
talk)
07:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Category:Song recordings produced by Bangladesh (record producer)
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Oppose. There is no guidance or rule that says categories should have corresponding articles, only that that if there is both they should match. There are plenty of member articles to these 3 categories to make them a useful contribution to the categorisation scheme. I do wonder why the article was deleted, Bangladesh has made quite a contribution to music. --
Richhoncho (
talk)
07:44, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:People with Guillain–Barré syndrome
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Not many people die of GBS but it is very traumatising. But in general its not sensible to categorise people by disease - even if its a disease which kills them.
Rathfelder (
talk)
23:13, 7 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:People with Lyme disease
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