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December 4

Category:COVID Recovery Group members

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:49, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic for any of these members. They are defined as Conservative politicians and this COVID Recovery Group membership is just a minor and probably temporary part of their political career. Marcocapelle ( talk) 23:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
This group may (currently) be important, but, the MPs are already categorized by party and categorizing MPs for which groups they are in could cause a lot of category clutter - e.g Graham Brady's article mentions groups concerned with Advertising, Egypt, Fluoridation, Thailand, Cannabis and Children .... DexDor (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from Ioannina (municipality)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge (taking into account the discussion below). Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Only content, apart from People from Ioannina‎ is one person from Pamvotida‎, now part of the municipality Ioannina. Distinguishing between the city and the municipality seems pointless and misleading. Rathfelder ( talk) 20:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Prehistoric animals of China

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 6#Category:Prehistoric animals of China

Category:People from Katerini (municipality)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Only content apart from Category:People from Katerini is one person from Pierioi‎, which seems to be a neighbouring village. Rathfelder ( talk) 19:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Formerly unidentified people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:51, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF. User:Namiba 19:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Delete. What a wonderful category! Do you want to take out Category:Formerly unidentified decedents and Category:Formerly unidentified murder victims as well? Presumeably very many murder victims are initially unidentified, at least until someone identifies them. Rathfelder ( talk) 19:40, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Michigan ballot proposals

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:05, 7 January 2021 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one, two or three articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • They're not what? The scheme classifies them by state and by year. This categorization is useful for reading and maintenance. The current coverage of ballot measures on Wikipedia is poor, and spotty, and I've been working to address this by creating new articles and consistently naming and categorizing them - deleting useful categories would make that effort significantly harder and more time consuming. Elliot321 ( talk | contribs) 09:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • They are not part of a large categorizing scheme, just to avoid misunderstandings. On a further note, the nomination is not about deleting, but about merging. The articles will still be in the tree. So I cannot imagine how it hinders writing new articles. Marcocapelle ( talk) 20:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • How are they not part of a scheme? I documented what the scheme is. Every other state is split this way at Category:2020 ballot measures and Category:Ballot measures by state. Keep in mind that these (in general, not for the Michigan ones, because again, I needed to get those moved) are part of their respective "$year $state elections" category - so you'd really need to merge into three categories if you applied this consistently. I'd love if intersection categories were a thing - but they aren't - and this is a very useful categorization for editors and readers even if some of the individual categories are small. Elliot321 ( talk | contribs) 21:59, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • They are not part of a large scheme. Fifteen states do not have any article at all (i.e. do not have a category at all), a substantial number of states have only one subcategory with one article. Marcocapelle ( talk) 12:37, 10 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Categories are meant to navigate easily to similar articles. This scheme makes the navigation process much more cumbersome. Marcocapelle ( talk) 18:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Also, I haven't looked at other states, but all of the Michigan articles start with the year anyways, so they will be "naturally" sorted by year in the Michigan container category. WP:SMALLCAT deals with overcategorisation, and I think that's an issue here - categories are meant to allow the user to find similar topics, and while small categories are fine in some circumstances, these categories will never have more than 2-3 topics, and the container category will be able to hold all of them easily. Elliot321, I do understand/appreciate the attempt to standardise further than the state, but I think in this instance we're better off keeping everything in one master category, and I'm pretty firm in that belief. (California might be the exception to the rule, though, but that's not what we're discussing.) SportingFlyer T· C 19:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mr Nigeria

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Pointless category that only exists to hold ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Mr Nigeria winners‎ Le Deluge ( talk) 19:17, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

People by populated place in Austria

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one or two articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Indinan Town Templates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:52, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Recently created, mis-spelled, had only the newly-created, up-for-deletion page Template:Lowell, Indiana in it before I removed it from the category. No prejudice against renaming to "Indiana Municipal Government templates" or something similar IF it is going to actually be populated by existing relevant templates. Otherwise, delete. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs) 18:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:China Shipping Group

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:COSCO. That category has been nominated for renaming here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: China Shipping Group no longer exists because it merged with COSCO in 2016. All the companies under China Shipping Group are now renamed and under COSCO Group. CartleR255 ( talk) 15:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
2 of the 4 article titles here begin with "COSCO..." and the recreated main article describes itself as an "intermediate holding company" of COSCO.- RevelationDirect ( talk) 19:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Imperial Austrian emigrants

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 15:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Six western palaces

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Forbidden City. (non-admin closure) Asmodea Oaktree ( talk) 16:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Textbook example of a WP:SMALLCAT - and no matching Six Western Palaces article Le Deluge ( talk) 13:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Footballers who switched code

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 November 17 § Category:Rugby league players that played in the NFL, which resulted in deletion, on the grounds of trivial intersection by a non-defining characteristic. Other similar categories with the same characteristics probably need to be deleted as well. Note that I left out ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Dual players and ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Dual camogie–football players because main article Dual player seems to suggest that this notion is defining within the context of Gaelic sports. @ Namiba, SportingFlyer, Good Olfactory, Carlossuarez46, RevelationDirect, and Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: pinging contributors to previous discussion. Place Clichy ( talk) 11:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Other relevant older CfDs: 1 (deleted), 2 (deleted), 3 (renamed, eligibility not challenged), 4 (deleted, in practice superseded by a list), 5 (upmerged). @ Lugnuts, Johnpacklambert, Qetuth, Peterkingiron, Timrollpickering, Philosopher, Shawn à Montréal, Resolute, Oculi, PKT, Alansohn, Goodtimber, Esprit15d, and Mike Selinker: pinging active contributors to these discussions. Place Clichy ( talk) 12:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 11:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
This category existed in the form of Category:Sportspeople of multiple sports, which was deleted after a community discussion. Place Clichy ( talk) 12:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Bonkers. I would hope if it were recreated and had a clearly defined remit, it would not end in the same result. Number 5 7 12:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I do think players are defined by playing multiple sports professionally, and it's a list I would expect to be on the encyclopaedia somewhere. I was only neutral in the last one because there were some players who were college footballers who played in the NRL and I didn't think it defined those players in the same way it did professional athletes. I probably should have been a keep, as that does define a professional. It absolutely defines Ben Graham (football player), for instance... SportingFlyer T· C 11:49, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I've just gone through most of the Aussie rules players who played in the NFL and all of them are clearly defined by that category, apart from one which was miscategorised. If only rugby players are kept, I don't support deleting the Aussie rules category. SportingFlyer T· C 01:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Switching code is a defining characteristic, and is mentioned by media almost every time that the players are mentioned. -- SuperJew ( talk) 12:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Oranjelo100 ( talk) 12:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The characteristic of an athlete switching "codes" is a strong defining characteristic. Whenever I read articles about these athletes, the authors can't help but mention that the athlete had switched from one to the other in describing the individual. Alansohn ( talk) 13:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - at least in some form. I think that it's perhaps notable that most of those in favour of Keep are from Commonwealth countries and most-but-not-all of those opposed (this time and in the past) are from the US. I think that in itself points to a geographical issue in how these things are perceived, and perhaps people could bear in mind that their personal experience might not be a global perspective. Certainly in rugby, code switching has historically been A Really Big Deal generating acres of newsprint, and someone like Jason Robinson will always be known as a "former league player and World Cup winner" in that order (eg as the BBC does here - the very epitome of WP:DEFINING) - in fact his Wiki article mentions his dual-code-ness in the first sentence, but there's no mention anywhere in the lede that he was in the only England team to win the union World Cup. So I think that's pretty clear evidence that dual-codeness is WP:DEFINING in one major English-speaking country - and I suspect the same would be true in Oz/NZ (even if winning World Cups is a bit less rare there...). So then I guess the question is whether rugby is unique in finding dual code WP:DEFINING - and the article for cricketer Denis Compton mentions his football career in the second line. Cricket-football is definitely WP:DEFINING for him. So then it's just a case of working out where to draw the line, because I can imagine there's lots of trivial examples - and I'd suggest playing two codes professionally is rare enough to be a good line to draw (as well as meaning that each career is worthy of a Wiki article in its own right), but could live with eg the requirement that one of the careers be at international level. Le Deluge ( talk) 14:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
    @ Le Deluge: it seems from the discussion that some pairs of sports would be defining while some others would not necessarily be. Among the arguments here, I feel the contradiction that in some cases a combination would be notable because it is rare (and hence a personal achievement), and in other cases because it is frequent (as for sports which would share a stronger link of some kind such as Gaelic football and hurley, or rugby union and rugby league). Where I leave the case of skier Luc Alphand who later switched to auto racing (and even sailing) with quite some success in the first too sports is celebrated as an exceptional accomplishments, but I guess that Category:Alpine skiers turned auto racers would not be a very interesting category. If we keep all these, do we need to overturn the recent deletion of Category:Rugby league players that played in the NFL? Place Clichy ( talk) 19:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
    @ Place Clichy: I think you're trying to maybe complicate things a little more than they need to be, I think most of this kind of stuff can be mostly covered by existing policies. If we had a general ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:People notable for playing multiple sports, then that could act as a parent that could accommodate the weird pairings like Alphand whilst diffusing the common pairings down into specific categories. Also that name emphasises the WP:NOTABILITY aspect - and as I say, I'm happy with either "normal Wiki WP:NOTABILITY in each sport" or a requirement that one sport should be an international level. The reason why rugby union/league is such A Big Deal dates from when the former was amateur and the latter was professional and all the social baggage that came with that, so there was huge amounts of WP:NOTABLE coverage of such conversions in the decade or so after union went professional in 1995. Now it is a bit less remarkable, but there's still a bit of a hangover from that earlier time. I have no strong views about things like the NFL conversions, so how about we just see what WP:Reliable sources say? A quick search turns up articles on league to NFL ( Jarryd Hayne and union to NFL ( Alex Gray) - that second article is clearly about the move, and I doubt the BBC would normally devote an article to an Australian changing rugby clubs, the focus is clearly on the code switch. So the BBC seems to think these switches are notable as a thing in their own right, and as a Brit that feels representative of general UK thinking. I can't comment on other countries, but looking at this thread, it seems Gaelic games are probably going to be an exception to wherever we end up, Australia/NZ are probably similar to the UK, US editors seem less keen - perhaps the "one sport at international level" might be a way round that. But given the local variation, it might be helpful to canvas some opinion from other major en.wiki countries like Canada, South Africa and India? Le Deluge ( talk) 12:34, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
    @ Le Deluge: you are correct about rugby league and rugby union having probably seen a huge number of players switching, and not just at the time of the switch to professionalism. For the decades when union was purely amateur, it is possible that many good players from lower class backgrounds or poorer regions would have had to switch to league in order to make a living, which is a reason often given for the popularity of rugby league in the North of England. That's the case when two sports are so related (as are also probably gaelic sports) that very many players would have kicked a ball in both versions, especially if we allow amateur play for consideration. In such a case, is this switch suitable for a category (i.e. a defining characteristic for the player)? I would be satisfied with keeping this information in list format, which call allow all nuances, such as level reached in each sport, sources etc.
    At the opposite range of the spectrum (the rare cases), this BBC article for instance consistently presents Luc Alphand as the skiing champion who just took victory in the Dakar Rally, but despite the accomplishment I do not think that this gives us rationale for placing him in a ski champion turned auto racer category. Place Clichy ( talk) 16:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment To give a little more context to my remark from last time, the category OP is referring to was basically of the form of "Player of X sport who played in a league for Y sport", without indicating whether the sport the player previously played were also at the professional level. I still find this to be a trivial intersection of topics, however, because switching code or playing in a league for a different sport than before is still implied via the other categories on the player's article (not to mention, obviously, biographical information in the article itself). That's about all we need. Besides, there is other data that these overlapping categories cannot represent, e.g. where each player hails from (and thus which "X nationality [sport] players" category they fall under). Last time I also said to be valid these categories would need to be capable of utterly replacing others; as they are, they are not able to do that and mostly cause a creep towards WP:OVERCAT. The most I would say is listify, otherwise delete. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 15:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep all a nonsense nomination. Just an editor with nothing better to do. Playing two sports at a senior level is a major achievement and therefore notable. Maybe delete some categories that are not well populated. Djln Djln ( talk) 16:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Wide your neck in mate, I was asked for an opinion and I gave it. I am entitled to leave an opinion. If you don't like it, tough. There are thousands of Wikipedia articles that need improving yet some editors waste time with this nonsense. These categories are perfectly legitimate and no amount of Wikispeak and Wikijargon is going to convince me otherwise. Djln Djln ( talk) 13:51, 5 December 2020 (UTC) reply
"Just an editor with nothing better to do" is beyond what you've been asked to provide here. That's casting aspersions on an editor's motivation. Being involved with this does not preclude contributing to other things that truly need it on Wikipedia, whether this matters or not. Don't take any of this too seriously, and don't misread my posts; it wasn't your opinion on the matter at hand I took issue with, and I responded to that separately. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 17:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC) reply
In an earlier discussion, we just deleted Category:Rugby league players that played in the NFL. What do you suggest to do with that? What logic would there be to delete this one and keep the rest? Place Clichy ( talk) 17:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
This is a far more comprehensive discussion than that one was in terms of participation - it's not necessarily binding precedent. As I noted that category had some issues since it was defining for some but not others, but I imagine we should be able to have a category like that. SportingFlyer T· C 18:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I know it is not a binding precedent, and you'll notice that I voted keep in the previous discussion. I'm just trying to find some sense in this. If some pairs of sports are more defining than others, which ones and according to which criteria would that be? In the extreme, seen the number of people here who find any of these categories as defining, should the deleted one be reinstated? Also, I do not quite understand why a list would not be a better way to cover these topics than a category, as List of English cricket and football players instead of deleted Category:England international footballers who also played Test cricket. Place Clichy ( talk) 19:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I think you're trying to make sense of something that isn't straightforward. The question really is - do we define the players based on their dual career? For Aussie rules/NFL players the answer is clearly yes. The problem with the rugby league cat is that some were not clearly defined by their move, but that had to do more with their overall notability than anything else. I think the geographic element of this is important too - the rugby category may have been deleted because playing both rugby league and NFL isn't really defining to Americans (who I don't think could tell you the difference between league and union if they know rugby at all) but it definitely would be for Australians. Also, lists and categories are not in conflict with each other and have advantages and disadvantages the other does not. SportingFlyer T· C 20:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The number of articles in both Gaelic football categories prove that is switching code is a big deal. Similar numbers to rugby categories. Djln Djln ( talk) 15:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I fail to see how it can be defining to have played Gaelic football and any other ball sport. Also, as some have suggested that these categories should be for professional play only, that cannot work with Gaelic football which is entirely amateur. Note that ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Dual players (of hurley and Gaelic football) is not included in this nomination, as main article Dual player seems to suggest that this specific notion is defining within the context of Gaelic sports. Place Clichy ( talk) 19:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Just more nonsense and nothing stated here justifies deleting these categories. The fact that "Gaelic football...is entirely amateur" is totally irrelevant and this statement just proves your ignorance of the topic. In Ireland, Gaelic football is extremely important and notable. It is probably the most popular sport on the island. Djln Djln ( talk) 19:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
You have been asked to keep this discussion civil, please do so for the sake of the quality of the debate. Amateur status is relevant because several editors have argued in this very discussion that playing two sports professionally would be what is interesting here, as opposed e.g. kicking a ball in your own free time. Selected quotes: playing two sports professionally is a notable achievement, players are defined by playing multiple sports professionally, and it's a list I would expect to be on the encyclopaedia somewhere; [...] there were some players who were college footballers who played in the NRL and I didn't think it defined those players in the same way it did professional athletes, I'd suggest playing two codes professionally is rare enough to be a good line to draw. Nobody contests that Gaelic football is notable on its own. Place Clichy ( talk) 16:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
@ Mike Selinker: What is the difference between List of dual-code rugby internationals (as being a rationale for a category 'keep') and Irish experiment (Australian rules football)? The first has numerous sections, e.g. Fiji, France, Germany, Italy, Tonga and the United States, that are uncited. It also states "From 1910 to 1995, dual-code internationals were infrequent". The other seems to be more fully sourced. It states "The Irish Experiment began in the mid-1980s". When dual-code rugby internationals, according to the list, did not often occur. -- Gaois ( talk) 01:59, 15 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Part of the answer is that chat is good for a list is not necessarily good for a category. Lists can have additional commentary and sectioning introducing nuances and explaining different situations, and also allow to place a source next to a list entry, things a category is not good for. Place Clichy ( talk) 16:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Regarding Gaelic sports:
(i) on Kevin Moran (who is in the category), " [Alex] Ferguson was well educated on the GAA from the time that Kevin Moran was briefly double-jobbing with United and the Dubs".
He didn't even switch completely at first, he was doing the two.
(ii) on Tadhg Kennelly (also in the category), an Australian source anticipating his return: "The chances of Tadhg Kennelly rejoining the Sydney Swans have been boosted after Kennelly scored twice to help Kerry to beat Cork in Gaelic football's All-Ireland final. The rivals battled it out before 82,000 fans at Dublin's famous Croke Park on Sunday, watched on by Swans coach Paul Roos and a group of Kennelly's former Sydney teammates who travelled over to support him. The 0-16 1-09 win made Kennelly the first player to hold both an All Ireland medal and AFL Premiership medallion."
Kennelly subsequently returned to play for Sydney.
(iii) if last decade is too long ago, how about this week? Colin O'Riordan (also in the category) "O'Riordan, who was handed a two-year extension to his deal with the Swans in 2019, received official permission from the club to line out for the duration of the season."
He won a Munster Senior Football Championship (as covered by Australian media) and just played in an All-Ireland semi-final a couple of days ago.
(iv) Mark Keane also played in the same Munster final, after he "was the goalscoring hero as they dumped out Kerry at the semi-final stage on Sunday. The game marked the 20-year-old's first senior outing for Cork after Collingwood had given him the green light to link up with the squad when he returned home to Ireland after the 2020 AFL season had drawn to a close."
Why are all these professional soccer and Australian rules clubs and players bothering with these "amateur" competitions in another country if they are non-defining? And note that rugby union was entirely amateur as recently as 1995. And that the sports in question here are deliberately amateur, " Rule 11: That the GAA is a not-for-profit organisation; the revenues received are used exclusively for the development of its games and for the administration of its activities" (see page 5, as stated in the contents - or 14 out of the total of 97).

Gaois ( talk) 06:16, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Basshunter unreleased songs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:52, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: A category of redirects all listed here with no further info elsewhere. If there were anything notable about the songs, I'd say upmerge to the parent categories, but there isn't. I see no reason for this category to exist. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars Talk to me 03:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:2010 Amharic television series

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 15:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: I assume this was intended to be a television debuts category. ‹The template Cat is being considered for merging.›  Category:2010 television series debuts is subcategorized by country, not language. The category contains just one article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:21, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Amharic crime drama television series

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 15:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: ‹The template Cat is being considered for merging.›  Category:Crime drama television series is divided by country, not by language. The category contains only one article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Recipients of the National Order of Benin

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:52, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING ( WP:PERFCAT and WP:OCAWARD)
When foreign leaders visit Benin, or vice versa, the National Order of Benin is given out as souvenir to commemorate the visit. Charles de Gaulle, Levi Eshkol and Al-Waleed bin Talal are not remotely defined by this award. (The only Beninese person in this category is President Thomas Boni Yayi, whose article doesn't even mention this award.) There wasn't a list so I created one here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 01:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Silver Crosses of the Order of Honour (Greece)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 19:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING ( WP:OCAWARD, WP:SMALLCAT and likely WP:PERFCAT)
The only article in this Greek award category is Marcin Wilczek, a Polish diplomat whose article makes no mention of why he won the the award (or any connection to Greece for that matter). Presumably he received the award as a souvenir for a diplomatic visit which we've consistently found non-defining. I don't know if I can say I "listified" the recipients of the award since there is only 1 article but it is now linked right here. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 01:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Withdrawn Let me take broader look at the category tree as Place Clichy proposed. I don't accept that award classes are all or nothing but a broader nom may be in order. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 11:25, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_December_4&oldid=1078907400"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< December 3 December 5 >

December 4

Category:COVID Recovery Group members

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:49, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic for any of these members. They are defined as Conservative politicians and this COVID Recovery Group membership is just a minor and probably temporary part of their political career. Marcocapelle ( talk) 23:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
This group may (currently) be important, but, the MPs are already categorized by party and categorizing MPs for which groups they are in could cause a lot of category clutter - e.g Graham Brady's article mentions groups concerned with Advertising, Egypt, Fluoridation, Thailand, Cannabis and Children .... DexDor (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:People from Ioannina (municipality)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge (taking into account the discussion below). Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Only content, apart from People from Ioannina‎ is one person from Pamvotida‎, now part of the municipality Ioannina. Distinguishing between the city and the municipality seems pointless and misleading. Rathfelder ( talk) 20:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Prehistoric animals of China

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 6#Category:Prehistoric animals of China

Category:People from Katerini (municipality)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Only content apart from Category:People from Katerini is one person from Pierioi‎, which seems to be a neighbouring village. Rathfelder ( talk) 19:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Formerly unidentified people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:51, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF. User:Namiba 19:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Delete. What a wonderful category! Do you want to take out Category:Formerly unidentified decedents and Category:Formerly unidentified murder victims as well? Presumeably very many murder victims are initially unidentified, at least until someone identifies them. Rathfelder ( talk) 19:40, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Michigan ballot proposals

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:05, 7 January 2021 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one, two or three articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • They're not what? The scheme classifies them by state and by year. This categorization is useful for reading and maintenance. The current coverage of ballot measures on Wikipedia is poor, and spotty, and I've been working to address this by creating new articles and consistently naming and categorizing them - deleting useful categories would make that effort significantly harder and more time consuming. Elliot321 ( talk | contribs) 09:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • They are not part of a large categorizing scheme, just to avoid misunderstandings. On a further note, the nomination is not about deleting, but about merging. The articles will still be in the tree. So I cannot imagine how it hinders writing new articles. Marcocapelle ( talk) 20:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • How are they not part of a scheme? I documented what the scheme is. Every other state is split this way at Category:2020 ballot measures and Category:Ballot measures by state. Keep in mind that these (in general, not for the Michigan ones, because again, I needed to get those moved) are part of their respective "$year $state elections" category - so you'd really need to merge into three categories if you applied this consistently. I'd love if intersection categories were a thing - but they aren't - and this is a very useful categorization for editors and readers even if some of the individual categories are small. Elliot321 ( talk | contribs) 21:59, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • They are not part of a large scheme. Fifteen states do not have any article at all (i.e. do not have a category at all), a substantial number of states have only one subcategory with one article. Marcocapelle ( talk) 12:37, 10 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Categories are meant to navigate easily to similar articles. This scheme makes the navigation process much more cumbersome. Marcocapelle ( talk) 18:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Also, I haven't looked at other states, but all of the Michigan articles start with the year anyways, so they will be "naturally" sorted by year in the Michigan container category. WP:SMALLCAT deals with overcategorisation, and I think that's an issue here - categories are meant to allow the user to find similar topics, and while small categories are fine in some circumstances, these categories will never have more than 2-3 topics, and the container category will be able to hold all of them easily. Elliot321, I do understand/appreciate the attempt to standardise further than the state, but I think in this instance we're better off keeping everything in one master category, and I'm pretty firm in that belief. (California might be the exception to the rule, though, but that's not what we're discussing.) SportingFlyer T· C 19:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mr Nigeria

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Pointless category that only exists to hold ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Mr Nigeria winners‎ Le Deluge ( talk) 19:17, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

People by populated place in Austria

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one or two articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Indinan Town Templates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:52, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Recently created, mis-spelled, had only the newly-created, up-for-deletion page Template:Lowell, Indiana in it before I removed it from the category. No prejudice against renaming to "Indiana Municipal Government templates" or something similar IF it is going to actually be populated by existing relevant templates. Otherwise, delete. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs) 18:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:China Shipping Group

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:COSCO. That category has been nominated for renaming here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: China Shipping Group no longer exists because it merged with COSCO in 2016. All the companies under China Shipping Group are now renamed and under COSCO Group. CartleR255 ( talk) 15:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
2 of the 4 article titles here begin with "COSCO..." and the recreated main article describes itself as an "intermediate holding company" of COSCO.- RevelationDirect ( talk) 19:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Imperial Austrian emigrants

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 15:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Category:Six western palaces

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Forbidden City. (non-admin closure) Asmodea Oaktree ( talk) 16:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Textbook example of a WP:SMALLCAT - and no matching Six Western Palaces article Le Deluge ( talk) 13:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
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Footballers who switched code

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 November 17 § Category:Rugby league players that played in the NFL, which resulted in deletion, on the grounds of trivial intersection by a non-defining characteristic. Other similar categories with the same characteristics probably need to be deleted as well. Note that I left out ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Dual players and ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Dual camogie–football players because main article Dual player seems to suggest that this notion is defining within the context of Gaelic sports. @ Namiba, SportingFlyer, Good Olfactory, Carlossuarez46, RevelationDirect, and Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: pinging contributors to previous discussion. Place Clichy ( talk) 11:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Other relevant older CfDs: 1 (deleted), 2 (deleted), 3 (renamed, eligibility not challenged), 4 (deleted, in practice superseded by a list), 5 (upmerged). @ Lugnuts, Johnpacklambert, Qetuth, Peterkingiron, Timrollpickering, Philosopher, Shawn à Montréal, Resolute, Oculi, PKT, Alansohn, Goodtimber, Esprit15d, and Mike Selinker: pinging active contributors to these discussions. Place Clichy ( talk) 12:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 11:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
This category existed in the form of Category:Sportspeople of multiple sports, which was deleted after a community discussion. Place Clichy ( talk) 12:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Bonkers. I would hope if it were recreated and had a clearly defined remit, it would not end in the same result. Number 5 7 12:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I do think players are defined by playing multiple sports professionally, and it's a list I would expect to be on the encyclopaedia somewhere. I was only neutral in the last one because there were some players who were college footballers who played in the NRL and I didn't think it defined those players in the same way it did professional athletes. I probably should have been a keep, as that does define a professional. It absolutely defines Ben Graham (football player), for instance... SportingFlyer T· C 11:49, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I've just gone through most of the Aussie rules players who played in the NFL and all of them are clearly defined by that category, apart from one which was miscategorised. If only rugby players are kept, I don't support deleting the Aussie rules category. SportingFlyer T· C 01:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Switching code is a defining characteristic, and is mentioned by media almost every time that the players are mentioned. -- SuperJew ( talk) 12:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Oranjelo100 ( talk) 12:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The characteristic of an athlete switching "codes" is a strong defining characteristic. Whenever I read articles about these athletes, the authors can't help but mention that the athlete had switched from one to the other in describing the individual. Alansohn ( talk) 13:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - at least in some form. I think that it's perhaps notable that most of those in favour of Keep are from Commonwealth countries and most-but-not-all of those opposed (this time and in the past) are from the US. I think that in itself points to a geographical issue in how these things are perceived, and perhaps people could bear in mind that their personal experience might not be a global perspective. Certainly in rugby, code switching has historically been A Really Big Deal generating acres of newsprint, and someone like Jason Robinson will always be known as a "former league player and World Cup winner" in that order (eg as the BBC does here - the very epitome of WP:DEFINING) - in fact his Wiki article mentions his dual-code-ness in the first sentence, but there's no mention anywhere in the lede that he was in the only England team to win the union World Cup. So I think that's pretty clear evidence that dual-codeness is WP:DEFINING in one major English-speaking country - and I suspect the same would be true in Oz/NZ (even if winning World Cups is a bit less rare there...). So then I guess the question is whether rugby is unique in finding dual code WP:DEFINING - and the article for cricketer Denis Compton mentions his football career in the second line. Cricket-football is definitely WP:DEFINING for him. So then it's just a case of working out where to draw the line, because I can imagine there's lots of trivial examples - and I'd suggest playing two codes professionally is rare enough to be a good line to draw (as well as meaning that each career is worthy of a Wiki article in its own right), but could live with eg the requirement that one of the careers be at international level. Le Deluge ( talk) 14:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
    @ Le Deluge: it seems from the discussion that some pairs of sports would be defining while some others would not necessarily be. Among the arguments here, I feel the contradiction that in some cases a combination would be notable because it is rare (and hence a personal achievement), and in other cases because it is frequent (as for sports which would share a stronger link of some kind such as Gaelic football and hurley, or rugby union and rugby league). Where I leave the case of skier Luc Alphand who later switched to auto racing (and even sailing) with quite some success in the first too sports is celebrated as an exceptional accomplishments, but I guess that Category:Alpine skiers turned auto racers would not be a very interesting category. If we keep all these, do we need to overturn the recent deletion of Category:Rugby league players that played in the NFL? Place Clichy ( talk) 19:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
    @ Place Clichy: I think you're trying to maybe complicate things a little more than they need to be, I think most of this kind of stuff can be mostly covered by existing policies. If we had a general ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:People notable for playing multiple sports, then that could act as a parent that could accommodate the weird pairings like Alphand whilst diffusing the common pairings down into specific categories. Also that name emphasises the WP:NOTABILITY aspect - and as I say, I'm happy with either "normal Wiki WP:NOTABILITY in each sport" or a requirement that one sport should be an international level. The reason why rugby union/league is such A Big Deal dates from when the former was amateur and the latter was professional and all the social baggage that came with that, so there was huge amounts of WP:NOTABLE coverage of such conversions in the decade or so after union went professional in 1995. Now it is a bit less remarkable, but there's still a bit of a hangover from that earlier time. I have no strong views about things like the NFL conversions, so how about we just see what WP:Reliable sources say? A quick search turns up articles on league to NFL ( Jarryd Hayne and union to NFL ( Alex Gray) - that second article is clearly about the move, and I doubt the BBC would normally devote an article to an Australian changing rugby clubs, the focus is clearly on the code switch. So the BBC seems to think these switches are notable as a thing in their own right, and as a Brit that feels representative of general UK thinking. I can't comment on other countries, but looking at this thread, it seems Gaelic games are probably going to be an exception to wherever we end up, Australia/NZ are probably similar to the UK, US editors seem less keen - perhaps the "one sport at international level" might be a way round that. But given the local variation, it might be helpful to canvas some opinion from other major en.wiki countries like Canada, South Africa and India? Le Deluge ( talk) 12:34, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply
    @ Le Deluge: you are correct about rugby league and rugby union having probably seen a huge number of players switching, and not just at the time of the switch to professionalism. For the decades when union was purely amateur, it is possible that many good players from lower class backgrounds or poorer regions would have had to switch to league in order to make a living, which is a reason often given for the popularity of rugby league in the North of England. That's the case when two sports are so related (as are also probably gaelic sports) that very many players would have kicked a ball in both versions, especially if we allow amateur play for consideration. In such a case, is this switch suitable for a category (i.e. a defining characteristic for the player)? I would be satisfied with keeping this information in list format, which call allow all nuances, such as level reached in each sport, sources etc.
    At the opposite range of the spectrum (the rare cases), this BBC article for instance consistently presents Luc Alphand as the skiing champion who just took victory in the Dakar Rally, but despite the accomplishment I do not think that this gives us rationale for placing him in a ski champion turned auto racer category. Place Clichy ( talk) 16:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment To give a little more context to my remark from last time, the category OP is referring to was basically of the form of "Player of X sport who played in a league for Y sport", without indicating whether the sport the player previously played were also at the professional level. I still find this to be a trivial intersection of topics, however, because switching code or playing in a league for a different sport than before is still implied via the other categories on the player's article (not to mention, obviously, biographical information in the article itself). That's about all we need. Besides, there is other data that these overlapping categories cannot represent, e.g. where each player hails from (and thus which "X nationality [sport] players" category they fall under). Last time I also said to be valid these categories would need to be capable of utterly replacing others; as they are, they are not able to do that and mostly cause a creep towards WP:OVERCAT. The most I would say is listify, otherwise delete. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 15:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep all a nonsense nomination. Just an editor with nothing better to do. Playing two sports at a senior level is a major achievement and therefore notable. Maybe delete some categories that are not well populated. Djln Djln ( talk) 16:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Wide your neck in mate, I was asked for an opinion and I gave it. I am entitled to leave an opinion. If you don't like it, tough. There are thousands of Wikipedia articles that need improving yet some editors waste time with this nonsense. These categories are perfectly legitimate and no amount of Wikispeak and Wikijargon is going to convince me otherwise. Djln Djln ( talk) 13:51, 5 December 2020 (UTC) reply
"Just an editor with nothing better to do" is beyond what you've been asked to provide here. That's casting aspersions on an editor's motivation. Being involved with this does not preclude contributing to other things that truly need it on Wikipedia, whether this matters or not. Don't take any of this too seriously, and don't misread my posts; it wasn't your opinion on the matter at hand I took issue with, and I responded to that separately. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 17:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC) reply
In an earlier discussion, we just deleted Category:Rugby league players that played in the NFL. What do you suggest to do with that? What logic would there be to delete this one and keep the rest? Place Clichy ( talk) 17:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
This is a far more comprehensive discussion than that one was in terms of participation - it's not necessarily binding precedent. As I noted that category had some issues since it was defining for some but not others, but I imagine we should be able to have a category like that. SportingFlyer T· C 18:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I know it is not a binding precedent, and you'll notice that I voted keep in the previous discussion. I'm just trying to find some sense in this. If some pairs of sports are more defining than others, which ones and according to which criteria would that be? In the extreme, seen the number of people here who find any of these categories as defining, should the deleted one be reinstated? Also, I do not quite understand why a list would not be a better way to cover these topics than a category, as List of English cricket and football players instead of deleted Category:England international footballers who also played Test cricket. Place Clichy ( talk) 19:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I think you're trying to make sense of something that isn't straightforward. The question really is - do we define the players based on their dual career? For Aussie rules/NFL players the answer is clearly yes. The problem with the rugby league cat is that some were not clearly defined by their move, but that had to do more with their overall notability than anything else. I think the geographic element of this is important too - the rugby category may have been deleted because playing both rugby league and NFL isn't really defining to Americans (who I don't think could tell you the difference between league and union if they know rugby at all) but it definitely would be for Australians. Also, lists and categories are not in conflict with each other and have advantages and disadvantages the other does not. SportingFlyer T· C 20:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The number of articles in both Gaelic football categories prove that is switching code is a big deal. Similar numbers to rugby categories. Djln Djln ( talk) 15:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC) reply
I fail to see how it can be defining to have played Gaelic football and any other ball sport. Also, as some have suggested that these categories should be for professional play only, that cannot work with Gaelic football which is entirely amateur. Note that ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Dual players (of hurley and Gaelic football) is not included in this nomination, as main article Dual player seems to suggest that this specific notion is defining within the context of Gaelic sports. Place Clichy ( talk) 19:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Just more nonsense and nothing stated here justifies deleting these categories. The fact that "Gaelic football...is entirely amateur" is totally irrelevant and this statement just proves your ignorance of the topic. In Ireland, Gaelic football is extremely important and notable. It is probably the most popular sport on the island. Djln Djln ( talk) 19:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC) reply
You have been asked to keep this discussion civil, please do so for the sake of the quality of the debate. Amateur status is relevant because several editors have argued in this very discussion that playing two sports professionally would be what is interesting here, as opposed e.g. kicking a ball in your own free time. Selected quotes: playing two sports professionally is a notable achievement, players are defined by playing multiple sports professionally, and it's a list I would expect to be on the encyclopaedia somewhere; [...] there were some players who were college footballers who played in the NRL and I didn't think it defined those players in the same way it did professional athletes, I'd suggest playing two codes professionally is rare enough to be a good line to draw. Nobody contests that Gaelic football is notable on its own. Place Clichy ( talk) 16:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
@ Mike Selinker: What is the difference between List of dual-code rugby internationals (as being a rationale for a category 'keep') and Irish experiment (Australian rules football)? The first has numerous sections, e.g. Fiji, France, Germany, Italy, Tonga and the United States, that are uncited. It also states "From 1910 to 1995, dual-code internationals were infrequent". The other seems to be more fully sourced. It states "The Irish Experiment began in the mid-1980s". When dual-code rugby internationals, according to the list, did not often occur. -- Gaois ( talk) 01:59, 15 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Part of the answer is that chat is good for a list is not necessarily good for a category. Lists can have additional commentary and sectioning introducing nuances and explaining different situations, and also allow to place a source next to a list entry, things a category is not good for. Place Clichy ( talk) 16:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Regarding Gaelic sports:
(i) on Kevin Moran (who is in the category), " [Alex] Ferguson was well educated on the GAA from the time that Kevin Moran was briefly double-jobbing with United and the Dubs".
He didn't even switch completely at first, he was doing the two.
(ii) on Tadhg Kennelly (also in the category), an Australian source anticipating his return: "The chances of Tadhg Kennelly rejoining the Sydney Swans have been boosted after Kennelly scored twice to help Kerry to beat Cork in Gaelic football's All-Ireland final. The rivals battled it out before 82,000 fans at Dublin's famous Croke Park on Sunday, watched on by Swans coach Paul Roos and a group of Kennelly's former Sydney teammates who travelled over to support him. The 0-16 1-09 win made Kennelly the first player to hold both an All Ireland medal and AFL Premiership medallion."
Kennelly subsequently returned to play for Sydney.
(iii) if last decade is too long ago, how about this week? Colin O'Riordan (also in the category) "O'Riordan, who was handed a two-year extension to his deal with the Swans in 2019, received official permission from the club to line out for the duration of the season."
He won a Munster Senior Football Championship (as covered by Australian media) and just played in an All-Ireland semi-final a couple of days ago.
(iv) Mark Keane also played in the same Munster final, after he "was the goalscoring hero as they dumped out Kerry at the semi-final stage on Sunday. The game marked the 20-year-old's first senior outing for Cork after Collingwood had given him the green light to link up with the squad when he returned home to Ireland after the 2020 AFL season had drawn to a close."
Why are all these professional soccer and Australian rules clubs and players bothering with these "amateur" competitions in another country if they are non-defining? And note that rugby union was entirely amateur as recently as 1995. And that the sports in question here are deliberately amateur, " Rule 11: That the GAA is a not-for-profit organisation; the revenues received are used exclusively for the development of its games and for the administration of its activities" (see page 5, as stated in the contents - or 14 out of the total of 97).

Gaois ( talk) 06:16, 9 December 2020 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Basshunter unreleased songs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:52, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: A category of redirects all listed here with no further info elsewhere. If there were anything notable about the songs, I'd say upmerge to the parent categories, but there isn't. I see no reason for this category to exist. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars Talk to me 03:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:2010 Amharic television series

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 15:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: I assume this was intended to be a television debuts category. ‹The template Cat is being considered for merging.›  Category:2010 television series debuts is subcategorized by country, not language. The category contains just one article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:21, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Amharic crime drama television series

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 15:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: ‹The template Cat is being considered for merging.›  Category:Crime drama television series is divided by country, not by language. The category contains only one article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the National Order of Benin

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 19:52, 12 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING ( WP:PERFCAT and WP:OCAWARD)
When foreign leaders visit Benin, or vice versa, the National Order of Benin is given out as souvenir to commemorate the visit. Charles de Gaulle, Levi Eshkol and Al-Waleed bin Talal are not remotely defined by this award. (The only Beninese person in this category is President Thomas Boni Yayi, whose article doesn't even mention this award.) There wasn't a list so I created one here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 01:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Silver Crosses of the Order of Honour (Greece)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 19:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING ( WP:OCAWARD, WP:SMALLCAT and likely WP:PERFCAT)
The only article in this Greek award category is Marcin Wilczek, a Polish diplomat whose article makes no mention of why he won the the award (or any connection to Greece for that matter). Presumably he received the award as a souvenir for a diplomatic visit which we've consistently found non-defining. I don't know if I can say I "listified" the recipients of the award since there is only 1 article but it is now linked right here. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 01:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
Withdrawn Let me take broader look at the category tree as Place Clichy proposed. I don't accept that award classes are all or nothing but a broader nom may be in order. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 11:25, 4 December 2020 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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