The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Upmerge to parent. This does seem overly specific. I don't know many people that would distinguish a film from others by the fact it uses an appellate court.
SFB14:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep Very few courtroom films ever made concern appeals, as opposed to trials. This category, presently containing 12, lists them all. Considering that some legal related websites
[1] have wondered openly about what courtroom films deal with appeals, and the number is so limited (because it's so specialized), a category containing all those films is entirely appropriate. Many other categories on Wikipedia have as little as 12 entries (or even less). There's nothing trivial about this at all. It is something of genuine interest and is perfectly encyclopedic.
Wikophile (
talk)
19:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete, how much about legal appeals (plural, not one in particular, note) must a film be in order for inclusion? Is that objective? What reliable sources tells us it's at least that much about legal appeals? None usually.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:55, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. This is not recognized in
reliable sources as being a distinct genre of film in its own right, but is merely an non-defining
WP:OCAT distinction that's being subjectively applied to some films whose core genre is just plain "legal". Just as an example, while The People vs. Larry Flynt certainly ends in an appellate court, the film is primarily about the original trial itself, and the appeal part is basically just a coda rather than the core of what the film is about.
Bearcat (
talk)
09:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Christian 90's record labels
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Keep This is a category with a quaint name that will warm many hearts. It makes me happy just thinking about it.
SFB19:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. I am not sure what is being attempted here, is it Christian record labels established in 90s, disestablished in the 90s, or just plain trading in the 90s? As it can only be the last then it needs to go.--
Richhoncho (
talk)
18:16, 13 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete.
WP:OCAT by an intersection of two unrelated traits that don't constitute a meaningfully defining combination. If "Christian 90's" were a genre of music in its own right, then this might be warranted — but it isn't. Which means the category is just "things that happen to be both x and y", and we don't base categories around that sort of trivia.
Bearcat (
talk)
03:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
KeepDelete -- Cat is for christian record labels, established in the 90s. So it has a clear function. Why don't ask: "Is this cat confusing or does its presence make Wikipedia (or the specific cat tree) worse?" Because I'd think the answer to that question would be "No, the cat is not bad (in itself)". It even has the potential to increase its number of articles. --
CN1 (
talk)
22:12, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
And why do we need categories that intersect the specific genre of music the label releases with the decade in which the label was established? Nobody's arguing that the category is unclear; what's being argued is that it isn't a defining intersection of traits.
Bearcat (
talk)
23:34, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Which is why we already have separate trees for "record labels by genre" and "record labels by year of establishment". Why do we need a category that yokes those two things together into a single category?
Bearcat (
talk)
18:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. It is confusing (is "Christian 90s" a genre? is it for labels created in the 1990s? is it for labels that traded in the 1990s? 1890s?). It does make the category tree worse because it creates a twig that combines attributes in a unique way that is not replicated elsewhere.
Good Ol’factory(talk)09:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)reply
People don't read the category descriptions, as a rule. The category's purpose and function has to be made unambiguous and unmistakable within the name itself, without relying on a usage note to paper over any confusion or ambiguity, to be acceptable.
Bearcat (
talk)
18:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Writers by ethnic or national descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: The proposed category overlaps with both the "writers by ethnicity" category and with the
Category:Writers by nationality. I think the "writers by ethnicity" cat pretty much does everything that the "ethnic or national descent" does, and combining the two sets of articles would make for a cleaner cat organization.
Aristophanes68(talk)06:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete the whole tree unless someone seriously can prove with reliable sources that the fact that all writers who N generations in the past had a single ancestor who was a resident of FOOLAND (national descent) or was FOOIAN (ethnicity) somehow defines both the writer and their writing.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The consequence of the proposed merge is that we get rid of the descent and only base the category on ethnicity. I think you should support the idea.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep per
Mayumashu. You people can discuss right here if 'ethnic or nationl descent' is a trait worth categorizing, or not, and it won't be an easy discussion, but as long as that issue is not cleared, you cannot get rid of nominated cat. I am an advocate for keeping the 'descent' tree. It is a big tree, take a look for its topcat
Category:People by ethnic or national descent and go down some cats. Do you people want to delete all these cats too? --
CN1 (
talk)
22:26, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
It's a very impressive tree for sure. Are there any restrictions on whom to include in the tree, e.g. by number of generations back in history, or by a % of ancestors belonging to a nationality or ethnicity?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:58, 17 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Example These questions are left unanswered. E.g.:
Angelina Jolie - "Jolie has stated that she is part Iroquois; her only known indigenous ancestor was a Huron woman born in 1649". She is categorized as "..by iroquois descent". It seems that the only definite criterium is, that the person itself is not part of the ethnicity, but their forebearers. And this is a clear distinction. You may not think its an important one, but there are hundrets of 'descent'-categories at this point, so I think they're being used. --
CN1 (
talk)
10:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)reply
This example shows (imo) that it is impossible to make a clear restriction for this category! Instead one should think, if it is important for the person, to be a descendant of an ethnicity. Does it influence the person culturally? Is it a very rare ethnicity? Does the person identify with the other people of the ethnicity? Etc. If yes, then categorize, if no, then just don't. --
CN1 (
talk)
17:10, 23 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I think categorisations should occur on purely an identity basis. If someone specifically mentions that they identify with a heritage, then they should go in the category. Otherwise, no.
SFB21:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated. I think that occupation should intersect with ethnicity or national origin, but not descent. This means we should nominate any categories of occupation by descent either to be renamed & pruned, or upmerged to all parents. –
FayenaticLondon13:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete/Upmerge where appropriate' There is only one ethnicity in the given category (Hmong) - the others refer to countries which cover many differing ethnic groups. And not sure why Amish features here (??).
SFB21:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)reply
I've been bold and moved the Hmong and Amish writers categories into the ethnicity tree as these are explicitly not descent categories.
SFB00:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Max van der Stoel Award winners
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Having received this award does not apear to be a
WP:DEFINING characteristic of the recipients (currently 3 of the 5 articles do not mention the award). This category also places articles about organizations in a category that is for articles about people. See also
WP:OC#AWARD.
DexDor (
talk)
06:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Having received this award is not less defining than receiving Nobel Prize. "This category also places articles about organizations in a category that is for articles about people" Organisations can be award winners, too, and this is a widespread practice (see, e.g., Nobel Peace Prize).
Fuseau (
talk)
13:10, 14 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I might be persuaded to consider this award appropriately defining, if we actually had an article to explain what the award is (who presents it, for what reasons, etc.) — but it cannot be given an automatic presumption of defining notability in the absence of such an article. Delete per nom; I'm willing to revisit this if somebody can explain it adequately.
Bearcat (
talk)
19:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Upmerge to parent. This does seem overly specific. I don't know many people that would distinguish a film from others by the fact it uses an appellate court.
SFB14:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep Very few courtroom films ever made concern appeals, as opposed to trials. This category, presently containing 12, lists them all. Considering that some legal related websites
[1] have wondered openly about what courtroom films deal with appeals, and the number is so limited (because it's so specialized), a category containing all those films is entirely appropriate. Many other categories on Wikipedia have as little as 12 entries (or even less). There's nothing trivial about this at all. It is something of genuine interest and is perfectly encyclopedic.
Wikophile (
talk)
19:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete, how much about legal appeals (plural, not one in particular, note) must a film be in order for inclusion? Is that objective? What reliable sources tells us it's at least that much about legal appeals? None usually.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:55, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. This is not recognized in
reliable sources as being a distinct genre of film in its own right, but is merely an non-defining
WP:OCAT distinction that's being subjectively applied to some films whose core genre is just plain "legal". Just as an example, while The People vs. Larry Flynt certainly ends in an appellate court, the film is primarily about the original trial itself, and the appeal part is basically just a coda rather than the core of what the film is about.
Bearcat (
talk)
09:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Christian 90's record labels
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Keep This is a category with a quaint name that will warm many hearts. It makes me happy just thinking about it.
SFB19:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. I am not sure what is being attempted here, is it Christian record labels established in 90s, disestablished in the 90s, or just plain trading in the 90s? As it can only be the last then it needs to go.--
Richhoncho (
talk)
18:16, 13 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete.
WP:OCAT by an intersection of two unrelated traits that don't constitute a meaningfully defining combination. If "Christian 90's" were a genre of music in its own right, then this might be warranted — but it isn't. Which means the category is just "things that happen to be both x and y", and we don't base categories around that sort of trivia.
Bearcat (
talk)
03:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
KeepDelete -- Cat is for christian record labels, established in the 90s. So it has a clear function. Why don't ask: "Is this cat confusing or does its presence make Wikipedia (or the specific cat tree) worse?" Because I'd think the answer to that question would be "No, the cat is not bad (in itself)". It even has the potential to increase its number of articles. --
CN1 (
talk)
22:12, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
And why do we need categories that intersect the specific genre of music the label releases with the decade in which the label was established? Nobody's arguing that the category is unclear; what's being argued is that it isn't a defining intersection of traits.
Bearcat (
talk)
23:34, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Which is why we already have separate trees for "record labels by genre" and "record labels by year of establishment". Why do we need a category that yokes those two things together into a single category?
Bearcat (
talk)
18:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. It is confusing (is "Christian 90s" a genre? is it for labels created in the 1990s? is it for labels that traded in the 1990s? 1890s?). It does make the category tree worse because it creates a twig that combines attributes in a unique way that is not replicated elsewhere.
Good Ol’factory(talk)09:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)reply
People don't read the category descriptions, as a rule. The category's purpose and function has to be made unambiguous and unmistakable within the name itself, without relying on a usage note to paper over any confusion or ambiguity, to be acceptable.
Bearcat (
talk)
18:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Writers by ethnic or national descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: The proposed category overlaps with both the "writers by ethnicity" category and with the
Category:Writers by nationality. I think the "writers by ethnicity" cat pretty much does everything that the "ethnic or national descent" does, and combining the two sets of articles would make for a cleaner cat organization.
Aristophanes68(talk)06:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete the whole tree unless someone seriously can prove with reliable sources that the fact that all writers who N generations in the past had a single ancestor who was a resident of FOOLAND (national descent) or was FOOIAN (ethnicity) somehow defines both the writer and their writing.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The consequence of the proposed merge is that we get rid of the descent and only base the category on ethnicity. I think you should support the idea.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep per
Mayumashu. You people can discuss right here if 'ethnic or nationl descent' is a trait worth categorizing, or not, and it won't be an easy discussion, but as long as that issue is not cleared, you cannot get rid of nominated cat. I am an advocate for keeping the 'descent' tree. It is a big tree, take a look for its topcat
Category:People by ethnic or national descent and go down some cats. Do you people want to delete all these cats too? --
CN1 (
talk)
22:26, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
It's a very impressive tree for sure. Are there any restrictions on whom to include in the tree, e.g. by number of generations back in history, or by a % of ancestors belonging to a nationality or ethnicity?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:58, 17 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Example These questions are left unanswered. E.g.:
Angelina Jolie - "Jolie has stated that she is part Iroquois; her only known indigenous ancestor was a Huron woman born in 1649". She is categorized as "..by iroquois descent". It seems that the only definite criterium is, that the person itself is not part of the ethnicity, but their forebearers. And this is a clear distinction. You may not think its an important one, but there are hundrets of 'descent'-categories at this point, so I think they're being used. --
CN1 (
talk)
10:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)reply
This example shows (imo) that it is impossible to make a clear restriction for this category! Instead one should think, if it is important for the person, to be a descendant of an ethnicity. Does it influence the person culturally? Is it a very rare ethnicity? Does the person identify with the other people of the ethnicity? Etc. If yes, then categorize, if no, then just don't. --
CN1 (
talk)
17:10, 23 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I think categorisations should occur on purely an identity basis. If someone specifically mentions that they identify with a heritage, then they should go in the category. Otherwise, no.
SFB21:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated. I think that occupation should intersect with ethnicity or national origin, but not descent. This means we should nominate any categories of occupation by descent either to be renamed & pruned, or upmerged to all parents. –
FayenaticLondon13:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete/Upmerge where appropriate' There is only one ethnicity in the given category (Hmong) - the others refer to countries which cover many differing ethnic groups. And not sure why Amish features here (??).
SFB21:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)reply
I've been bold and moved the Hmong and Amish writers categories into the ethnicity tree as these are explicitly not descent categories.
SFB00:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Max van der Stoel Award winners
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Having received this award does not apear to be a
WP:DEFINING characteristic of the recipients (currently 3 of the 5 articles do not mention the award). This category also places articles about organizations in a category that is for articles about people. See also
WP:OC#AWARD.
DexDor (
talk)
06:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Having received this award is not less defining than receiving Nobel Prize. "This category also places articles about organizations in a category that is for articles about people" Organisations can be award winners, too, and this is a widespread practice (see, e.g., Nobel Peace Prize).
Fuseau (
talk)
13:10, 14 August 2014 (UTC)reply
I might be persuaded to consider this award appropriately defining, if we actually had an article to explain what the award is (who presents it, for what reasons, etc.) — but it cannot be given an automatic presumption of defining notability in the absence of such an article. Delete per nom; I'm willing to revisit this if somebody can explain it adequately.
Bearcat (
talk)
19:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.