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Keep -- They are all districts, though some have the title Borough or City; some may be unitary authorities due to the abolition of metropolitan county councils, but that also does not matter.
Category:English district council elections would be acceptable.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Redditch District Council elections
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The result of the discussion was:rename. –
FayenaticLondon 19:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Category was misnamed as the council is
Redditch Borough Council (confirmed by
their website). As pointed out in response to the speedy request decline, this is in line with the naming convention for these categories (either "Footown Type Council elections" or "Council elections in Footown").
Number57 22:19, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom -- The content is all for Redditch DC elections. It is the main article that should be renamed. Redditch also contains the parish of
Feckenham, but I do not think we need articles on parish council elections, which would be encompassed by the present main article name.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:26, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Biophysical Society Awards
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. This is a category for a scientific society's awards. As such, it's both a sort of eponymous category, and a small-with-limited-potential-for-growth category. Much better to simply list the relevant awards on the
Biophysical Society page, and link therefrom. The articles on the awards themselves are best categorized with related awards, rather than segregated in a separate category of their own.
Lquilter (
talk) 18:01, 25 March 2014 (UTC)reply
PS -- If kept, it needs to be renamed to lowercase "awards", because the category X awards is not itself a proper name. --
Lquilter (
talk) 18:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)reply
I disagree. That page refers to "the awards programs" in lowercase. The only reference that's a full proper name references a "Biophysical Society Awards Committee", which is a proper name -- but for a committee, not the collective set of awards. The individual awards are all individually titled, and the articles on the individual awards here are also individually titled. (See below.) It would be pretty unusual for a collective set of awards to be given its own proper name, and I don't see any reason why it would be so here. ... But more importantly, the category shouldn't exist! The list I include below has 9 awards, which is pretty much the definition of "small with limited potential for growth" in
WP:OCAT.
Keep but rename to
Category:Biophysical Society awards. This is not the usual kind of award category: it is a category of awards, not of award winners (which we do not allow). If they are NN awards, the appropriate course is to nominate them for AFD, which if successful will empty the category and lead to its deletion. My guess is that the awards are made by the Society, but the selection is delegated to a committee of the board of the Society. That is not unusual.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:46, 26 March 2014 (UTC)reply
PKI, why isn't "small with limited potential for growth" or "eponymous" applicable here? I didn't argue
WP:OCAT#Award; as you say, it's not an award (winners) category. --
Lquilter (
talk) 17:37, 26 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete Small category that is not part of any general scheme. The Dayhoof award is not even notable enough for it to be mentioned on the bio of one of the two winners for whom we have an article. Part of me wonders if it is notable enough to even have an article.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Relisted from
CFD 2014 March 25 to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
I still stand by my previous comment.
WP#OC:AWARD does not apply because this is a category of awards, not award winners. I agree that it is a small category, but I do not see any other objection.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:30, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
merge with
Category:Biophysics; everyone in biophysic's awards can go there, don't need to single each out by grantor. The only one arguing keep seems to fundamentally misunderstand the nomination - citing OC:AWARD as a strawman.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 17:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)reply
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History of the Utah Territory
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The result of the discussion was:Rename all. Although I was pinged from the last comment, I did not review this but even then consensus is strongly in support of the renaming. A cursory review of
Category:Former organized territories of the United States shows that (other than Oregon territory) the 'the' has been removed in large part.
Ricky81682 (
talk) 07:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Rename. The subcats for decades, years and establishments do not use "the". Nor do the equivalents for Arizona Territory and New Mexico Territory just approved at
April 9. –
FayenaticLondon 19:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment for now. I'm inclined to oppose. Having the 'the' in the title seems to be better English and it reads better. I know that there were a bunch that are related that just got renamed, but those may also be wrong. Maybe best to have the question here about the need for 'the' in these titles.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Alternative: if this is rejected, it would be helpful if editors would instead state whether the April 9 close should be changed to insert "the" into the large number of categories for Arizona Territory and New Mexico Territory, as we have not yet updated the templates on those pages. Likewise, a decision to insert "the" into all the sub-cats for Utah Territory decades, years and establishments, without having to start a fresh listing for them all, would save work. –
FayenaticLondon 07:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Merge all the periodic categories into history. The Territory was too shortlived for us to need centuries and millenia cats (with one subcat). Even the decades can only be a very small category. Rename the rest per nom.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
I assume you mean merge the first four nominated categories, but not all their sub-cats for decades and years. I agree that we could do this quite sensibly, in terms of the Utah Territory hierarchy. However, they do have other parents as part of other structures, and your proposal would remove the sub-cats from e.g. 19th Century in the United States - unless we put the History one into that parent. –
FayenaticLondon 21:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. I'm commenting just on the "the" issue, which is what the nomination seems to be about. From what I have seen and read, either usage is fine and they seem to be used at a roughly equivalent rate. In any situation where it's just as acceptable to omit a "the" prior to a proper name, I would tend to default towards omitting it in a category name, because it will usually be more helpful non-native English speakers. That seems to also be the general approach of Wikipedia.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the comments above. The simply does not read well or sound well on the ear. So the current names are correct.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 20:28, 30 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Maybe not to you, but it is commonly used. It's possible that it may even be primary usage, though from what I can see it's about equal.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 23:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)reply
In which case maintaining the status quo is the recommended action.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 00:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Those can be fixed by renaming. Existing badly named categories is not a justification to continue the bad names. Fix a few and then the rest.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 00:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, my point is that they are not "bad". They are legitimate names, possibly even the most common form.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. I agree with Good Olfactory that these are equally acceptable terms. Kennethaw88 •
talk 00:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename I have read a lot about Utah Territory, and that is the general form used in most reliable sources as the common reference. On the issue of if these categories are needed, Utah Territory was one of the longest-lived US territories (it lasted over 40 years) and is one of the clearest examples of a colonialist regime, where there were clear and pronounced differences between the majority of the territory residents and the governing officials. The Officialdom of Utah Territory thus were a very different group of people then those who ran Utah after it became a state. There are debates on whether Reconstruction, or US control of the Philipines is the better paradigm, but the later view as advocated by Nathan Oman is the one that currently has accednecy in the historical field. As it stands, if we have categories for any territories, we should have one for Utah Territory. There is also the fact that Utah Territory for its first 15 years was larger than the current boundaries of Utah, exercising effective authority in parts of Nevada and also maybe doing so in far southern Idaho for a time.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Equally used, and equally acceptable, do not justify making a change. We abhor a leading "the" in titles, but mid-phrase there is no problem, and it sounds more like fluent English. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk) 12:09, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
It is no more "The Utah Territory" than it is "the Utah". Utah Territory is by far the most common name.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:32, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Even if it is equally used (which I doubt—I still think omitting the "the" is more common), there is a good reason to change these ones—to conform to the pre-existing standard used in other Utah Territory categories. That's generally been such a persuasive reason that it has been given its own speedy renaming criterion. Regardless of what is done, the worst result would be to have some in one format and some in the other.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Question. Is it correct to assume that the use of "the" is more common in speaking language while without "the" is more common in formal language? If that's correct, we shouldn't use "the" in an encyclopedic context.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:02, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
No, I don't think that's necessarily correct. I speak/write about the territory reasonably often in an academic setting and I would never use the "the" in writing or speaking. Occasionally I encounter someone who does, but it seems to be the same people who say "the Sudan" or "the Ukraine", so it may be more of an individualistic stylistic quirk.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
On crude measures of frequency of use:
Google Ngram. "of the Utah Territory" versus "of Utah Territory"
Good Ol’factory's feeling that omitting the "the" is more common is supported. It is more common enough to justify changing things? Barely I suppose. More persuasive to me is the notion of "inconsistencies in the tree". Does this rename proposal mean increasing consistency in the category tree? If yes, I'd support. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk) 06:53, 24 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Yes, it would mean increasing consistency in the category tree; that is my goal in making the nomination. –
FayenaticLondon 22:52, 30 June 2014 (UTC)reply
OK. Support per nom. Consistency is good. Usage is in agreement. I personally don't think worrying about "the" is important, but having made the effort to investigate, I support. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk) 02:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Note to closer: please either approve the renames; or the combination of renaming and merging suggested by Peterkingiron; or approve reverse renaming of the sub-cats for years, establishments etc (adding "the" to those). There is no support for maintaining inconsistency. –
FayenaticLondon 23:04, 30 June 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Four-yearly events
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Nominator's rationale: To match related categories for Annual, Biennial and Triennial events.
SFB 10:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. This is an awkward phrase. Kennethaw88 •
talk 03:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs about loneliness
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The result of the discussion was:withdrawn by nominator pending centralised discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 17:09, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. Fails
Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and see
Wikipedia:Overcategorization and specifically,
WP:DEFINING. "Songs about topic" is a thoroughly-flawed basis for a category, because songs (like poetry) use imagery and metaphor to convey a complex range of ideas and emotions; plenty of songs are not about what they are about. Many members of these categories don't mention what the lyrics are "about" so inclusion must be based of the use of a word in the title. Hardly defining! "Songs about..." categories remain a repository of
original research without any redeeming factors.
Richhoncho (
talk) 08:38, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep for now as part of a series under
Category:Songs by theme. I entirely agree with
the nominator's argument that is silly to try defining a theme to artistic works which use imagery and metaphor, and that many such works are not about what they are about. However, I don't agree with cherrypicking one example when the rationale applies to the whole category. That leads to repeated discussions about the same principle, which wastes editors' time and risks inconsistent results. The principle which the nominator sets out so well should be pursued through a centralised discussion, either by a CFD of all similar categories, or by an RFC. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Hi
BHG, I had intended to have a CfD of all similar categories but I messed it up. I realized after the second nomination, so added this one (low fruit etc.) Next time I intend to do it properly, but decided to let these 3 run in any event. --
Richhoncho (
talk) 13:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
@
Richhoncho: it would be much much better to have a centralised discussion somewhere about the principle which you set out, rather than going for a "low hanging fruit" strategy. Please please please withdraw these noms to allow that centralised discussion (see
WP:MULTI), or at the very least merge the 3 discussions on this page. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
WITHDRAW NOMINATIONS for procedural reasons only as noted above. --
Richhoncho (
talk) 14:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set in former countries
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The result of the discussion was:merge all, the first to
Category:Works by country of setting. The rationale is not strong, as articles are categorised according to country of setting, and this is defining for them; the nominated cats are containers only for those country categories, split according to current or former. However, there is a strong enough consensus here to move those country categories up out of Former countries. Only certain things are worth setting apart in
Category:Former countries, e.g. Society by country is not; and there is a clear consensus here against keeping works by setting down at that level. –
FayenaticLondon 11:47, 27 May 2014 (UTC)reply
upmerge each to appropriate "by country" parent I don't see how the "formerness" is significant.
Mangoe (
talk) 19:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Upmerge each to appropriate "by country" parent per Mangoe. It seems also difficult to define whether a work is set in a former country or not. Should we define from a real-world or a fictional perspective? The time of setting is defined from a fictional perspective, but from that perspective there are no former countries.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 23:14, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Actually, many fictional works will be written as the narative of a lost civilization. They will open with saying they are the balad of Gilead telling the tall of that great land before it was destroyed in the Goblin Wars. So it is possible to have a fictional work in a fictional former country. The most fun is what if we have a work that purports to be the tale of the fall of the United States, and then tells of people's actions in the United States after its fall (that is essentially what
Orson Scott Card's set of short stories Folk of the Fringe is, it is a work set in the former United States, which is now a disorganized, post-nuclear holocaust land lacking any clear order, at least outside of Utah. Much of the narrative takes place in areas that can only be described as "former country lands".
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Upmerge This is not really a seperate nature to the works setting. Also, the current name begs the question, were the countries former when the works were created, or do we class a novel written in 1980 set in the Soviet Union in the 1930s in this category or not?
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Otiria
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Nominator's rationale:Delete — Upmerge into
Category:People from the Northland Region. Some of the NZ "people from..." categories are small, but most of them at least have a good chance of growing. But Otiria is much too tiny a settlement for this sort of category. It'd be unlikely to ever reach even two articles. FWIW, it's no longer listed as an official census location in New Zealand, and is a farming community close to a town of 1300 people. Older sources suggest it probably has a population of 200 at most.
Grutness...wha? 01:43, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
upmerge as per nominator's rationale. Schwede66 19:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)----reply
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Category:André Hazes
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. No real need for an eponymous category for one distinct article in two different subcatgories. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 01:15, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete per many precedents. Is the sub-cat for "songs written by" justified, as the only member is also in
Category:André Hazes songs? –
FayenaticLondon 21:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Keep -- They are all districts, though some have the title Borough or City; some may be unitary authorities due to the abolition of metropolitan county councils, but that also does not matter.
Category:English district council elections would be acceptable.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Redditch District Council elections
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The result of the discussion was:rename. –
FayenaticLondon 19:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Category was misnamed as the council is
Redditch Borough Council (confirmed by
their website). As pointed out in response to the speedy request decline, this is in line with the naming convention for these categories (either "Footown Type Council elections" or "Council elections in Footown").
Number57 22:19, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom -- The content is all for Redditch DC elections. It is the main article that should be renamed. Redditch also contains the parish of
Feckenham, but I do not think we need articles on parish council elections, which would be encompassed by the present main article name.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:26, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Biophysical Society Awards
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. This is a category for a scientific society's awards. As such, it's both a sort of eponymous category, and a small-with-limited-potential-for-growth category. Much better to simply list the relevant awards on the
Biophysical Society page, and link therefrom. The articles on the awards themselves are best categorized with related awards, rather than segregated in a separate category of their own.
Lquilter (
talk) 18:01, 25 March 2014 (UTC)reply
PS -- If kept, it needs to be renamed to lowercase "awards", because the category X awards is not itself a proper name. --
Lquilter (
talk) 18:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)reply
I disagree. That page refers to "the awards programs" in lowercase. The only reference that's a full proper name references a "Biophysical Society Awards Committee", which is a proper name -- but for a committee, not the collective set of awards. The individual awards are all individually titled, and the articles on the individual awards here are also individually titled. (See below.) It would be pretty unusual for a collective set of awards to be given its own proper name, and I don't see any reason why it would be so here. ... But more importantly, the category shouldn't exist! The list I include below has 9 awards, which is pretty much the definition of "small with limited potential for growth" in
WP:OCAT.
Keep but rename to
Category:Biophysical Society awards. This is not the usual kind of award category: it is a category of awards, not of award winners (which we do not allow). If they are NN awards, the appropriate course is to nominate them for AFD, which if successful will empty the category and lead to its deletion. My guess is that the awards are made by the Society, but the selection is delegated to a committee of the board of the Society. That is not unusual.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:46, 26 March 2014 (UTC)reply
PKI, why isn't "small with limited potential for growth" or "eponymous" applicable here? I didn't argue
WP:OCAT#Award; as you say, it's not an award (winners) category. --
Lquilter (
talk) 17:37, 26 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete Small category that is not part of any general scheme. The Dayhoof award is not even notable enough for it to be mentioned on the bio of one of the two winners for whom we have an article. Part of me wonders if it is notable enough to even have an article.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Relisted from
CFD 2014 March 25 to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
I still stand by my previous comment.
WP#OC:AWARD does not apply because this is a category of awards, not award winners. I agree that it is a small category, but I do not see any other objection.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:30, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
merge with
Category:Biophysics; everyone in biophysic's awards can go there, don't need to single each out by grantor. The only one arguing keep seems to fundamentally misunderstand the nomination - citing OC:AWARD as a strawman.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 17:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)reply
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History of the Utah Territory
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The result of the discussion was:Rename all. Although I was pinged from the last comment, I did not review this but even then consensus is strongly in support of the renaming. A cursory review of
Category:Former organized territories of the United States shows that (other than Oregon territory) the 'the' has been removed in large part.
Ricky81682 (
talk) 07:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Rename. The subcats for decades, years and establishments do not use "the". Nor do the equivalents for Arizona Territory and New Mexico Territory just approved at
April 9. –
FayenaticLondon 19:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment for now. I'm inclined to oppose. Having the 'the' in the title seems to be better English and it reads better. I know that there were a bunch that are related that just got renamed, but those may also be wrong. Maybe best to have the question here about the need for 'the' in these titles.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Alternative: if this is rejected, it would be helpful if editors would instead state whether the April 9 close should be changed to insert "the" into the large number of categories for Arizona Territory and New Mexico Territory, as we have not yet updated the templates on those pages. Likewise, a decision to insert "the" into all the sub-cats for Utah Territory decades, years and establishments, without having to start a fresh listing for them all, would save work. –
FayenaticLondon 07:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Merge all the periodic categories into history. The Territory was too shortlived for us to need centuries and millenia cats (with one subcat). Even the decades can only be a very small category. Rename the rest per nom.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
I assume you mean merge the first four nominated categories, but not all their sub-cats for decades and years. I agree that we could do this quite sensibly, in terms of the Utah Territory hierarchy. However, they do have other parents as part of other structures, and your proposal would remove the sub-cats from e.g. 19th Century in the United States - unless we put the History one into that parent. –
FayenaticLondon 21:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. I'm commenting just on the "the" issue, which is what the nomination seems to be about. From what I have seen and read, either usage is fine and they seem to be used at a roughly equivalent rate. In any situation where it's just as acceptable to omit a "the" prior to a proper name, I would tend to default towards omitting it in a category name, because it will usually be more helpful non-native English speakers. That seems to also be the general approach of Wikipedia.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the comments above. The simply does not read well or sound well on the ear. So the current names are correct.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 20:28, 30 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Maybe not to you, but it is commonly used. It's possible that it may even be primary usage, though from what I can see it's about equal.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 23:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)reply
In which case maintaining the status quo is the recommended action.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 00:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Those can be fixed by renaming. Existing badly named categories is not a justification to continue the bad names. Fix a few and then the rest.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 00:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, my point is that they are not "bad". They are legitimate names, possibly even the most common form.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. I agree with Good Olfactory that these are equally acceptable terms. Kennethaw88 •
talk 00:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename I have read a lot about Utah Territory, and that is the general form used in most reliable sources as the common reference. On the issue of if these categories are needed, Utah Territory was one of the longest-lived US territories (it lasted over 40 years) and is one of the clearest examples of a colonialist regime, where there were clear and pronounced differences between the majority of the territory residents and the governing officials. The Officialdom of Utah Territory thus were a very different group of people then those who ran Utah after it became a state. There are debates on whether Reconstruction, or US control of the Philipines is the better paradigm, but the later view as advocated by Nathan Oman is the one that currently has accednecy in the historical field. As it stands, if we have categories for any territories, we should have one for Utah Territory. There is also the fact that Utah Territory for its first 15 years was larger than the current boundaries of Utah, exercising effective authority in parts of Nevada and also maybe doing so in far southern Idaho for a time.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Equally used, and equally acceptable, do not justify making a change. We abhor a leading "the" in titles, but mid-phrase there is no problem, and it sounds more like fluent English. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk) 12:09, 20 June 2014 (UTC)reply
It is no more "The Utah Territory" than it is "the Utah". Utah Territory is by far the most common name.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:32, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Even if it is equally used (which I doubt—I still think omitting the "the" is more common), there is a good reason to change these ones—to conform to the pre-existing standard used in other Utah Territory categories. That's generally been such a persuasive reason that it has been given its own speedy renaming criterion. Regardless of what is done, the worst result would be to have some in one format and some in the other.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Question. Is it correct to assume that the use of "the" is more common in speaking language while without "the" is more common in formal language? If that's correct, we shouldn't use "the" in an encyclopedic context.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:02, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
No, I don't think that's necessarily correct. I speak/write about the territory reasonably often in an academic setting and I would never use the "the" in writing or speaking. Occasionally I encounter someone who does, but it seems to be the same people who say "the Sudan" or "the Ukraine", so it may be more of an individualistic stylistic quirk.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)reply
On crude measures of frequency of use:
Google Ngram. "of the Utah Territory" versus "of Utah Territory"
Good Ol’factory's feeling that omitting the "the" is more common is supported. It is more common enough to justify changing things? Barely I suppose. More persuasive to me is the notion of "inconsistencies in the tree". Does this rename proposal mean increasing consistency in the category tree? If yes, I'd support. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk) 06:53, 24 June 2014 (UTC)reply
Yes, it would mean increasing consistency in the category tree; that is my goal in making the nomination. –
FayenaticLondon 22:52, 30 June 2014 (UTC)reply
OK. Support per nom. Consistency is good. Usage is in agreement. I personally don't think worrying about "the" is important, but having made the effort to investigate, I support. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk) 02:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Note to closer: please either approve the renames; or the combination of renaming and merging suggested by Peterkingiron; or approve reverse renaming of the sub-cats for years, establishments etc (adding "the" to those). There is no support for maintaining inconsistency. –
FayenaticLondon 23:04, 30 June 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Four-yearly events
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Nominator's rationale: To match related categories for Annual, Biennial and Triennial events.
SFB 10:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. This is an awkward phrase. Kennethaw88 •
talk 03:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs about loneliness
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The result of the discussion was:withdrawn by nominator pending centralised discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 17:09, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. Fails
Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and see
Wikipedia:Overcategorization and specifically,
WP:DEFINING. "Songs about topic" is a thoroughly-flawed basis for a category, because songs (like poetry) use imagery and metaphor to convey a complex range of ideas and emotions; plenty of songs are not about what they are about. Many members of these categories don't mention what the lyrics are "about" so inclusion must be based of the use of a word in the title. Hardly defining! "Songs about..." categories remain a repository of
original research without any redeeming factors.
Richhoncho (
talk) 08:38, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep for now as part of a series under
Category:Songs by theme. I entirely agree with
the nominator's argument that is silly to try defining a theme to artistic works which use imagery and metaphor, and that many such works are not about what they are about. However, I don't agree with cherrypicking one example when the rationale applies to the whole category. That leads to repeated discussions about the same principle, which wastes editors' time and risks inconsistent results. The principle which the nominator sets out so well should be pursued through a centralised discussion, either by a CFD of all similar categories, or by an RFC. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Hi
BHG, I had intended to have a CfD of all similar categories but I messed it up. I realized after the second nomination, so added this one (low fruit etc.) Next time I intend to do it properly, but decided to let these 3 run in any event. --
Richhoncho (
talk) 13:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
@
Richhoncho: it would be much much better to have a centralised discussion somewhere about the principle which you set out, rather than going for a "low hanging fruit" strategy. Please please please withdraw these noms to allow that centralised discussion (see
WP:MULTI), or at the very least merge the 3 discussions on this page. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
WITHDRAW NOMINATIONS for procedural reasons only as noted above. --
Richhoncho (
talk) 14:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set in former countries
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The result of the discussion was:merge all, the first to
Category:Works by country of setting. The rationale is not strong, as articles are categorised according to country of setting, and this is defining for them; the nominated cats are containers only for those country categories, split according to current or former. However, there is a strong enough consensus here to move those country categories up out of Former countries. Only certain things are worth setting apart in
Category:Former countries, e.g. Society by country is not; and there is a clear consensus here against keeping works by setting down at that level. –
FayenaticLondon 11:47, 27 May 2014 (UTC)reply
upmerge each to appropriate "by country" parent I don't see how the "formerness" is significant.
Mangoe (
talk) 19:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Upmerge each to appropriate "by country" parent per Mangoe. It seems also difficult to define whether a work is set in a former country or not. Should we define from a real-world or a fictional perspective? The time of setting is defined from a fictional perspective, but from that perspective there are no former countries.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 23:14, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Actually, many fictional works will be written as the narative of a lost civilization. They will open with saying they are the balad of Gilead telling the tall of that great land before it was destroyed in the Goblin Wars. So it is possible to have a fictional work in a fictional former country. The most fun is what if we have a work that purports to be the tale of the fall of the United States, and then tells of people's actions in the United States after its fall (that is essentially what
Orson Scott Card's set of short stories Folk of the Fringe is, it is a work set in the former United States, which is now a disorganized, post-nuclear holocaust land lacking any clear order, at least outside of Utah. Much of the narrative takes place in areas that can only be described as "former country lands".
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Upmerge This is not really a seperate nature to the works setting. Also, the current name begs the question, were the countries former when the works were created, or do we class a novel written in 1980 set in the Soviet Union in the 1930s in this category or not?
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 02:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Otiria
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Nominator's rationale:Delete — Upmerge into
Category:People from the Northland Region. Some of the NZ "people from..." categories are small, but most of them at least have a good chance of growing. But Otiria is much too tiny a settlement for this sort of category. It'd be unlikely to ever reach even two articles. FWIW, it's no longer listed as an official census location in New Zealand, and is a farming community close to a town of 1300 people. Older sources suggest it probably has a population of 200 at most.
Grutness...wha? 01:43, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
upmerge as per nominator's rationale. Schwede66 19:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)----reply
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Category:André Hazes
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. No real need for an eponymous category for one distinct article in two different subcatgories. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 01:15, 26 April 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete per many precedents. Is the sub-cat for "songs written by" justified, as the only member is also in
Category:André Hazes songs? –
FayenaticLondon 21:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)reply
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