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June 14

Clergy by period

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename/merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: These categories are organized by century. JFH ( talk) 22:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Pre-1971 establishments in the United Arab Emirates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

WIPO treaties

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Merge both into a new category. We have a scheme of ‹The template Cat is being considered for merging.›  Category:Treaties by organization, and generally the subcategories are "ORGNAME treaties", and included in them are (1) treaties that are administered by that organization, or (2) treaties for which the organization or one of its officials is the depositary. There is no unified category for WIPO right now, but we do have two separate categories for what usually goes together. There is a distinction between the two concepts, but I don't think it's worthwhile having two separate category schemes for administrator vs. depositary. In any case, there is often major overlap between the two. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Oppose. Although the Director General of WIPO is the depositary of the Eurasian Patent Convention, this does not mean that the Eurasian Patent Convention is a "World Intellectual Property Organization treaty". In fact, to me, the concept of "World Intellectual Property Organization treaty" might be regarded as slightly unclear or vague... And, strictly speaking, there is one World Intellectual Property Organization treaty: the WIPO Convention. -- Edcolins ( talk) 18:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
It certainly does mean that under the definitions used in the other "treaties by organization" categories. Your double-barreled division is a division that is just not needed currently. Why can't we group all treaties together if it is administered by the org or if the org is a depositary? I don't understand the need for any further information in the category tree. You go to the WIPO website, and lo and behold— information on the Eurasian Patent Convention. So it makes some practical sense to group these all together. There is no category scheme for "treaties by depositary", nor do we need one. The alternative is to have Category:World Intellectual Property Organization treaties as a parent category for both, but really ... why is it desirable to split when no other categories in the scheme do? Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC) reply
With all due respect, your statement "You go to the WIPO website, and lo and behold— information on the Eurasian Patent Convention" is misguided. The link you provided is an entry in the "WIPO Lex" database of WIPO [1], which includes thousands of treaties and legal texts which are not "World Intellectual Property Organization treaties". The WIPOLex database literally contains thousands of national and international legal texts. My proposal would therefore be to delete altogether the category Category:Treaties of which the Director General of WIPO is the depositary (I indeed agree with your statement that "There is no category scheme for "treaties by depositary", nor do we need one.") and to insert only the treaties administered by WIPO into the new category Category:World Intellectual Property Organization treaties, i.e. only those treaties [2]. Could we agree on that proposal? -- Edcolins ( talk) 19:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, the Eurasian Patent Convention does have the Director General of WIPO as its depositary. WIPOLex might have other treaties listed that are not. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Alright, in fact, I have no particular feeling about this. If we indicate on the top of the Category:World Intellectual Property Organization treaties something like:
"Treaties that are administered by the World Intellectual Property Organization and/or treaties for which the World Intellectual Property Organization or one of its officials is the depositary."
then I would agree to your initial suggestion. -- Edcolins ( talk) 19:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
That's pretty much the sort of thing that I had in mind. Thx. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
You're welcome! Thanks to you as well. -- Edcolins ( talk) 17:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Support -- Expand abbreviation, as we usually do. No view on the more general issues about existence. Peterkingiron ( talk) 17:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Support renaming as nom'd, with indicator on the cat page. The technical complexities of depository, administration, sponsorship, blah blah blah, would make any category structure too narrow and technical to be helpful. 99% of people who care are going to call these things WIPO treaties (or WIPO spelled-out), and the 1% who care about the precise nomenclature will hopefully be mollified by having a clarifying note on the category page itself. -- Lquilter ( talk) 16:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Foreign-language broadcasting in the United States

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:  Relisted at 2013 JUL 5 CFD. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Navajo is indigenous to the South West US. Otherwise, I agree as has been pointed out on several occasions, the US doesn't have an official language, thus "foreign language" is often shorthand for "non-English" Carlossuarez46 ( talk) 08:43, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
I don't think that is the same thing though. In the United States a large amount of the ethnic broadcasting is done in English. I think in this case, our choices are to name it non-English, or to stop categorizing these together at all. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 05:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, again, it's never appropriate to label anything as "Non-Y" instead of "X". I'm not wedded to the specific name I proposed, having simply put it forward for discussion, but there's surely some alternative name that these can be grouped under which defines them by what they are instead of what they aren't. There's surely some alternative name that these can be grouped under which doesn't require a "non-" in it. Bearcat ( talk) 13:10, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
But they are only unified by what they are not, which is not broadcasting in English. That is the only thing that joins them together. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 15:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
There are still ways to define that in a positive, attributive "is this" way rather than a negative "non-that" one. Bearcat ( talk) 17:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Don't take this too far Bearcat. You have non-native speakers of a language, you have non-profits, etc. One neutral way to categorize these would be based on continent, so we could have ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Asian language broadcasting and ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:European language broadcasting etc.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 18:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
"Non-profit organizations" and "non-governmental organizations" are the actual proper names of those specific classes of things, such that they fall under "defining this class of thing as what it is" — they're not the same thing as imposing a label that defines something as "not its opposite". The equivalent here would be naming female categories as "non-male" or LGBT categories as "non-heterosexual", not naming non-profit agencies as non-profit agencies — because imposing an involuntary label from the outside is not the same thing as defining the class of thing by the term it uses for itself. Bearcat ( talk) 18:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC) reply
You ignore the fact that "non-English language" is an actually used term in a way that your other preposals are not. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)---- reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dutch Reformed Christians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. I think I got the renames right, if I missed any, let me know and I'll fix.

Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply

Nominator's rationale: It's not obvious from the top level cat, but the subcats indicate that these are for members of the Dutch Reformed Church. Renaming is necessary to prevent confusion with Category:Dutch Calvinists, which will almost certainly soon be Category:Dutch Calvinist and Reformed Christians. JFH ( talk) 01:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_14&oldid=1074811178"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< June 13 June 15 >

June 14

Clergy by period

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename/merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: These categories are organized by century. JFH ( talk) 22:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Pre-1971 establishments in the United Arab Emirates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

WIPO treaties

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Merge both into a new category. We have a scheme of ‹The template Cat is being considered for merging.›  Category:Treaties by organization, and generally the subcategories are "ORGNAME treaties", and included in them are (1) treaties that are administered by that organization, or (2) treaties for which the organization or one of its officials is the depositary. There is no unified category for WIPO right now, but we do have two separate categories for what usually goes together. There is a distinction between the two concepts, but I don't think it's worthwhile having two separate category schemes for administrator vs. depositary. In any case, there is often major overlap between the two. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Oppose. Although the Director General of WIPO is the depositary of the Eurasian Patent Convention, this does not mean that the Eurasian Patent Convention is a "World Intellectual Property Organization treaty". In fact, to me, the concept of "World Intellectual Property Organization treaty" might be regarded as slightly unclear or vague... And, strictly speaking, there is one World Intellectual Property Organization treaty: the WIPO Convention. -- Edcolins ( talk) 18:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
It certainly does mean that under the definitions used in the other "treaties by organization" categories. Your double-barreled division is a division that is just not needed currently. Why can't we group all treaties together if it is administered by the org or if the org is a depositary? I don't understand the need for any further information in the category tree. You go to the WIPO website, and lo and behold— information on the Eurasian Patent Convention. So it makes some practical sense to group these all together. There is no category scheme for "treaties by depositary", nor do we need one. The alternative is to have Category:World Intellectual Property Organization treaties as a parent category for both, but really ... why is it desirable to split when no other categories in the scheme do? Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC) reply
With all due respect, your statement "You go to the WIPO website, and lo and behold— information on the Eurasian Patent Convention" is misguided. The link you provided is an entry in the "WIPO Lex" database of WIPO [1], which includes thousands of treaties and legal texts which are not "World Intellectual Property Organization treaties". The WIPOLex database literally contains thousands of national and international legal texts. My proposal would therefore be to delete altogether the category Category:Treaties of which the Director General of WIPO is the depositary (I indeed agree with your statement that "There is no category scheme for "treaties by depositary", nor do we need one.") and to insert only the treaties administered by WIPO into the new category Category:World Intellectual Property Organization treaties, i.e. only those treaties [2]. Could we agree on that proposal? -- Edcolins ( talk) 19:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, the Eurasian Patent Convention does have the Director General of WIPO as its depositary. WIPOLex might have other treaties listed that are not. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Alright, in fact, I have no particular feeling about this. If we indicate on the top of the Category:World Intellectual Property Organization treaties something like:
"Treaties that are administered by the World Intellectual Property Organization and/or treaties for which the World Intellectual Property Organization or one of its officials is the depositary."
then I would agree to your initial suggestion. -- Edcolins ( talk) 19:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
That's pretty much the sort of thing that I had in mind. Thx. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
You're welcome! Thanks to you as well. -- Edcolins ( talk) 17:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Support -- Expand abbreviation, as we usually do. No view on the more general issues about existence. Peterkingiron ( talk) 17:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Support renaming as nom'd, with indicator on the cat page. The technical complexities of depository, administration, sponsorship, blah blah blah, would make any category structure too narrow and technical to be helpful. 99% of people who care are going to call these things WIPO treaties (or WIPO spelled-out), and the 1% who care about the precise nomenclature will hopefully be mollified by having a clarifying note on the category page itself. -- Lquilter ( talk) 16:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Foreign-language broadcasting in the United States

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:  Relisted at 2013 JUL 5 CFD. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Navajo is indigenous to the South West US. Otherwise, I agree as has been pointed out on several occasions, the US doesn't have an official language, thus "foreign language" is often shorthand for "non-English" Carlossuarez46 ( talk) 08:43, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
I don't think that is the same thing though. In the United States a large amount of the ethnic broadcasting is done in English. I think in this case, our choices are to name it non-English, or to stop categorizing these together at all. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 05:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, again, it's never appropriate to label anything as "Non-Y" instead of "X". I'm not wedded to the specific name I proposed, having simply put it forward for discussion, but there's surely some alternative name that these can be grouped under which defines them by what they are instead of what they aren't. There's surely some alternative name that these can be grouped under which doesn't require a "non-" in it. Bearcat ( talk) 13:10, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
But they are only unified by what they are not, which is not broadcasting in English. That is the only thing that joins them together. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 15:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
There are still ways to define that in a positive, attributive "is this" way rather than a negative "non-that" one. Bearcat ( talk) 17:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
Don't take this too far Bearcat. You have non-native speakers of a language, you have non-profits, etc. One neutral way to categorize these would be based on continent, so we could have ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:Asian language broadcasting and ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.›  Category:European language broadcasting etc.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 18:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC) reply
"Non-profit organizations" and "non-governmental organizations" are the actual proper names of those specific classes of things, such that they fall under "defining this class of thing as what it is" — they're not the same thing as imposing a label that defines something as "not its opposite". The equivalent here would be naming female categories as "non-male" or LGBT categories as "non-heterosexual", not naming non-profit agencies as non-profit agencies — because imposing an involuntary label from the outside is not the same thing as defining the class of thing by the term it uses for itself. Bearcat ( talk) 18:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC) reply
You ignore the fact that "non-English language" is an actually used term in a way that your other preposals are not. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)---- reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dutch Reformed Christians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. I think I got the renames right, if I missed any, let me know and I'll fix.

Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC) reply

Nominator's rationale: It's not obvious from the top level cat, but the subcats indicate that these are for members of the Dutch Reformed Church. Renaming is necessary to prevent confusion with Category:Dutch Calvinists, which will almost certainly soon be Category:Dutch Calvinist and Reformed Christians. JFH ( talk) 01:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_14&oldid=1074811178"

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