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Nominator's rationale:Delete.
WP:OCAT violation as an
eponymous category for a band that doesn't have enough spinoff content to require one; the only content filed in it at present is the band's main article, their albums category and an .ogg file. Main article and navbox template are already sufficient for navigational purposes.
Bearcat (
talk)
23:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:American covers musical groups
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Comment: But "Cat:Cover bands" could be populated quite a lot, given the large number of articles on bands around the world. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to split them. Now, it may be more interesting to do the split by genre than by country. I mean, it's more likely that someone wants to know metal or jazz cover bands, than whihc of the French bands do covers. --
NaBUru38 (
talk)
21:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
support It's possible that the new category name, fully populated, could be split out again, but it would then make sense as container category. The current name is incomprehensible.
Seyasirt (
talk)
04:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:NN Serpentis
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Nominator's rationale: There's only one object in this category, and that is the star article itself. No reason to have this as a separate category considering that there are not likely ever going to be any other additions.
StringTheory11 (
t •
c)
19:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Total Drama Island
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Category:Universities and colleges by year of establishment
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge Nominating per below suggestion. So the question is -- both here and for the "Universities established in 1987" rename nom directly below -- are we ready to split off universities and colleges from other educational institutions in the year of establishment tree? Does that aid navigation or not?
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
18:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep and populate Picking
Category:Educational institutions established in 1922 (and looking a few years in either direction) shows a rather motley assortment of elementary schools, high schools, colleges and universities all lumped together, a pattern of about 175 institutions each year lumped together with nothing in common other than a year of establishment. Nothing in Wikipedia is needed, but splitting off colleges and universities allows all post-secondary schools to be grouped together and navigated more effectively and to be integrated into the overall parent
Category:Universities and colleges, with which it is now totally disconnected. A few hours in AWB should allow all of the needed restructuring to be completed for the benefit of Wikipedia.
Alansohn (
talk)
19:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Especially once you get to earlier years (eg pre 19th century), where there are very few grammar schools established, this just adds an additional, and unneeded, layer of navigation.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
19:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Fine with me. For the 200+ years since 1800, during which time 98% of educational institutions have been established, it would be a significant aid to navigation and separate a rather sundry laundry list of schools of varying types into a much better focused and organized grouping. The tremendous benefit of integration into the structure in the parent
Category:Universities and colleges far outweighs the "bah, humbug" argument of "unneeded", which is always unneeded and arbitrary. After all, other than food, water and oxygen, nothing is needed.
Alansohn (
talk)
22:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's a sundry list - and even if we pulled out the universities, the result would still be sundry. I'm a strong believer that less is more in categorization - and I think new far reaching schemes as this should be analyzed carefully as to their costs and benefits. To me the cost of creating and maintaining hundreds of more categories, and the need for constant monitoring and diffusion of the parent cat outweighs the benefit to the reader. We can easily link to this education category-by-year from the university category as a see also.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
16:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
How can it not be sundry at all but still be sundry if a clearly defined subset is shifted into a subcategory? Is that the same kind of CFD logic that argues for deletion of a category is both overbroad and too narrow? We could just create
Category:Stuff and take the "less is more in categorization" approach to its logical endpoint and just put every article into that one category; no maintenance, no fuss, no muss, no need for CfD. We have hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of categories and getting rid of them en masse would solve the problem of maintaining these categories. The problem is that your arguments are great reasons to dismantle the entire categorization system, not to delete only this particular structure and keep all of the others. As of now, the entire structure of
Category:Educational institutions by year of establishment is completely disconnected from the structure of
Category:Universities and colleges, and the scheme of organization by universities and colleges is so well-designed, structured and thought-out, and hardly so "far-reaching" that we need to re-evaluate the laundry list of educational institutions. A "see also" won't address the non-integration into the parent
Category:Universities and colleges, while a structure of
Category:Universities and colleges by year of establishment will better integrate content across the structures. It's easy enough to distinguish universities and colleges from the haystack of educational institutions and the time needed to create and maintain these categories is trivial while the benefit is significant in terms of cross-categorization. I'll be more than happy to volunteer to handle the task, if that's the only outstanding issue.
Alansohn (
talk)
18:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm neutral on this one but I do agree with Alansohn on the "See also" point, that is, if I understand Obiwankenobi's suggestion correctly. This isn't a {{catrel}} situation, it's either a subcategory or it goes.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
19:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
the catrel would be for educational institutions by year of creation - thus keeping the per year cats to a broader definition - it could be easily linked as a catrel from relevant university cats.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
07:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Alan, as to your other points, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not buying the slippery slope, but I do think we need to consider maintainability here and convenience for the user. Users have not had difficulty in populating the existing tree, so creating a new nested sub tree adds a lot of complication without a lot of benefit. My point about sundry was that I don't consider it sundry - but if a collection of education institutions is sundry, then removing universities means the parent will still be sundry - so if sundry is the problem you haven't solved it by sub categorizing.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
07:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge since if we do not places like
Brigham Young University will get put in multiple establishment categories. Educational institutions is an easy to define and broad name, this is a compound name, the exact extent of which will be complex, since at least half the things in Britain called "college" do not belong as "universities and colleges", and would we put The University of Pittsburgh College of Engineering in a sub-cat here, or is that not a college as used here?
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
00:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)reply
Upmerge. The discussion below seems to be moving to a consensus that supports the upmerge here. The two discussions should not be closed in different ways.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
02:38, 29 January 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Universities established in 1987
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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delete this one, and the parent.
Category:Educational_institutions_by_year_of_establishment is well populated, and especially given that the majority of entities that merit an article here are likely to be universities, we don't need to create a whole separate tree just for universities and colleges to separate them away from the broader "Educational insitutions". Shawn, are you ok with nominating the parent of this cat as well to discuss both at the same time?--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
18:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:Educational institutions established in 1987. The educational institutions name avoids dealing with the complexities of whether universities or universities and colleges is the better term. Also, if we created this as a common tree, we would end up with the issue of what category to put
Brigham Young University. It insists on an 1875 founding date, and has been in constant operation from that year, but it was not by any definition a university or college then, it was basically a high school.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
06:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
The same issues would come up with
Morehouse College and many other HBCUs. Many colleges that started as all-women's institutions also started at the high school level. The more one knows about the history of education in the US, the harder it is to make this split work before 1900.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
16:35, 24 January 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Brunonen Dynasty
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. There is clearly disagreement about whether the head article is named correctly, and although no RM discussion has been opened, some references have been posted at
Talk:Brunonids#Some_sources. I encourage interested editors to try to reach a consensus on the most appropriate name for the head article, and to feel free to open a fresh CFD nomination when that process has run its course.(Pinging CFD participants:
Srnec,
Obi-Wan Kenobi,
Peterkingiron). --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
23:10, 18 January 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The article was moved by me to an English, because the German "Brunonen" causes problems when people don't realise what it is. It can't be used as an adjective (that would be Brunoner).
Srnec (
talk)
17:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I am far from convinced that the article on the descendants of
Brun, Duke of Saxony is correctly anglicised from Brunonen to Brunonid. I note a cognate case has become Ottonian and wonder whether the article and category ought not to be
Brunonian dynasty and
Category:Brunonian dynasty. I note that the article only has German sources, so that there must be a question as to what the correct English is. Can the nom, please cite some English sources?
Peterkingiron (
talk)
13:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Woman bishops
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merge per nom - and trout to the creator for having yet again created a duplicate of a gendered category. Please search more carefully - category creation is incredibly cheap and easy, but deleting/merging wastes a week of time.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
14:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: There's a clear consensus to merge. However, the consensus on which direction isn't completely clear; and the nominated target hasn't been tagged.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu12:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Mongol peoples
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oppose The mongol peoples category contains sub-groups of Mongols, and as such is a useful set category as separate from the topic category of Mongols.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
18:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment --
Category:Mongolian people is for individual bio-articles. The other two are similar in content. We may need to make a distinction between articles relating to the people of Mongolia (formerly Outer Mongolia) and those about wider subjects about ethnic Mongols. If someone can write adequate headnotes to define these as distinct subjects and to sort the articles between the two, I can see a case for keeping two general categories, but I am not currently convinced that the two are currently adequately distinct.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
14:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Delete.
WP:OCAT violation as an
eponymous category for a band that doesn't have enough spinoff content to require one; the only content filed in it at present is the band's main article, their albums category and an .ogg file. Main article and navbox template are already sufficient for navigational purposes.
Bearcat (
talk)
23:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:American covers musical groups
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Comment: But "Cat:Cover bands" could be populated quite a lot, given the large number of articles on bands around the world. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to split them. Now, it may be more interesting to do the split by genre than by country. I mean, it's more likely that someone wants to know metal or jazz cover bands, than whihc of the French bands do covers. --
NaBUru38 (
talk)
21:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
support It's possible that the new category name, fully populated, could be split out again, but it would then make sense as container category. The current name is incomprehensible.
Seyasirt (
talk)
04:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:NN Serpentis
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Nominator's rationale: There's only one object in this category, and that is the star article itself. No reason to have this as a separate category considering that there are not likely ever going to be any other additions.
StringTheory11 (
t •
c)
19:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Total Drama Island
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Category:Universities and colleges by year of establishment
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge Nominating per below suggestion. So the question is -- both here and for the "Universities established in 1987" rename nom directly below -- are we ready to split off universities and colleges from other educational institutions in the year of establishment tree? Does that aid navigation or not?
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
18:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep and populate Picking
Category:Educational institutions established in 1922 (and looking a few years in either direction) shows a rather motley assortment of elementary schools, high schools, colleges and universities all lumped together, a pattern of about 175 institutions each year lumped together with nothing in common other than a year of establishment. Nothing in Wikipedia is needed, but splitting off colleges and universities allows all post-secondary schools to be grouped together and navigated more effectively and to be integrated into the overall parent
Category:Universities and colleges, with which it is now totally disconnected. A few hours in AWB should allow all of the needed restructuring to be completed for the benefit of Wikipedia.
Alansohn (
talk)
19:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Especially once you get to earlier years (eg pre 19th century), where there are very few grammar schools established, this just adds an additional, and unneeded, layer of navigation.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
19:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Fine with me. For the 200+ years since 1800, during which time 98% of educational institutions have been established, it would be a significant aid to navigation and separate a rather sundry laundry list of schools of varying types into a much better focused and organized grouping. The tremendous benefit of integration into the structure in the parent
Category:Universities and colleges far outweighs the "bah, humbug" argument of "unneeded", which is always unneeded and arbitrary. After all, other than food, water and oxygen, nothing is needed.
Alansohn (
talk)
22:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's a sundry list - and even if we pulled out the universities, the result would still be sundry. I'm a strong believer that less is more in categorization - and I think new far reaching schemes as this should be analyzed carefully as to their costs and benefits. To me the cost of creating and maintaining hundreds of more categories, and the need for constant monitoring and diffusion of the parent cat outweighs the benefit to the reader. We can easily link to this education category-by-year from the university category as a see also.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
16:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
How can it not be sundry at all but still be sundry if a clearly defined subset is shifted into a subcategory? Is that the same kind of CFD logic that argues for deletion of a category is both overbroad and too narrow? We could just create
Category:Stuff and take the "less is more in categorization" approach to its logical endpoint and just put every article into that one category; no maintenance, no fuss, no muss, no need for CfD. We have hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of categories and getting rid of them en masse would solve the problem of maintaining these categories. The problem is that your arguments are great reasons to dismantle the entire categorization system, not to delete only this particular structure and keep all of the others. As of now, the entire structure of
Category:Educational institutions by year of establishment is completely disconnected from the structure of
Category:Universities and colleges, and the scheme of organization by universities and colleges is so well-designed, structured and thought-out, and hardly so "far-reaching" that we need to re-evaluate the laundry list of educational institutions. A "see also" won't address the non-integration into the parent
Category:Universities and colleges, while a structure of
Category:Universities and colleges by year of establishment will better integrate content across the structures. It's easy enough to distinguish universities and colleges from the haystack of educational institutions and the time needed to create and maintain these categories is trivial while the benefit is significant in terms of cross-categorization. I'll be more than happy to volunteer to handle the task, if that's the only outstanding issue.
Alansohn (
talk)
18:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm neutral on this one but I do agree with Alansohn on the "See also" point, that is, if I understand Obiwankenobi's suggestion correctly. This isn't a {{catrel}} situation, it's either a subcategory or it goes.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
19:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
the catrel would be for educational institutions by year of creation - thus keeping the per year cats to a broader definition - it could be easily linked as a catrel from relevant university cats.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
07:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Alan, as to your other points, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not buying the slippery slope, but I do think we need to consider maintainability here and convenience for the user. Users have not had difficulty in populating the existing tree, so creating a new nested sub tree adds a lot of complication without a lot of benefit. My point about sundry was that I don't consider it sundry - but if a collection of education institutions is sundry, then removing universities means the parent will still be sundry - so if sundry is the problem you haven't solved it by sub categorizing.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
07:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge since if we do not places like
Brigham Young University will get put in multiple establishment categories. Educational institutions is an easy to define and broad name, this is a compound name, the exact extent of which will be complex, since at least half the things in Britain called "college" do not belong as "universities and colleges", and would we put The University of Pittsburgh College of Engineering in a sub-cat here, or is that not a college as used here?
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
00:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)reply
Upmerge. The discussion below seems to be moving to a consensus that supports the upmerge here. The two discussions should not be closed in different ways.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
02:38, 29 January 2014 (UTC)reply
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Category:Universities established in 1987
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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delete this one, and the parent.
Category:Educational_institutions_by_year_of_establishment is well populated, and especially given that the majority of entities that merit an article here are likely to be universities, we don't need to create a whole separate tree just for universities and colleges to separate them away from the broader "Educational insitutions". Shawn, are you ok with nominating the parent of this cat as well to discuss both at the same time?--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
18:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:Educational institutions established in 1987. The educational institutions name avoids dealing with the complexities of whether universities or universities and colleges is the better term. Also, if we created this as a common tree, we would end up with the issue of what category to put
Brigham Young University. It insists on an 1875 founding date, and has been in constant operation from that year, but it was not by any definition a university or college then, it was basically a high school.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
06:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)reply
The same issues would come up with
Morehouse College and many other HBCUs. Many colleges that started as all-women's institutions also started at the high school level. The more one knows about the history of education in the US, the harder it is to make this split work before 1900.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
16:35, 24 January 2014 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Brunonen Dynasty
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. There is clearly disagreement about whether the head article is named correctly, and although no RM discussion has been opened, some references have been posted at
Talk:Brunonids#Some_sources. I encourage interested editors to try to reach a consensus on the most appropriate name for the head article, and to feel free to open a fresh CFD nomination when that process has run its course.(Pinging CFD participants:
Srnec,
Obi-Wan Kenobi,
Peterkingiron). --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
23:10, 18 January 2014 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The article was moved by me to an English, because the German "Brunonen" causes problems when people don't realise what it is. It can't be used as an adjective (that would be Brunoner).
Srnec (
talk)
17:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I am far from convinced that the article on the descendants of
Brun, Duke of Saxony is correctly anglicised from Brunonen to Brunonid. I note a cognate case has become Ottonian and wonder whether the article and category ought not to be
Brunonian dynasty and
Category:Brunonian dynasty. I note that the article only has German sources, so that there must be a question as to what the correct English is. Can the nom, please cite some English sources?
Peterkingiron (
talk)
13:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Woman bishops
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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merge per nom - and trout to the creator for having yet again created a duplicate of a gendered category. Please search more carefully - category creation is incredibly cheap and easy, but deleting/merging wastes a week of time.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
14:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: There's a clear consensus to merge. However, the consensus on which direction isn't completely clear; and the nominated target hasn't been tagged.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu12:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Mongol peoples
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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oppose The mongol peoples category contains sub-groups of Mongols, and as such is a useful set category as separate from the topic category of Mongols.--
Obi-Wan Kenobi (
talk)
18:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment --
Category:Mongolian people is for individual bio-articles. The other two are similar in content. We may need to make a distinction between articles relating to the people of Mongolia (formerly Outer Mongolia) and those about wider subjects about ethnic Mongols. If someone can write adequate headnotes to define these as distinct subjects and to sort the articles between the two, I can see a case for keeping two general categories, but I am not currently convinced that the two are currently adequately distinct.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
14:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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