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Cgingold (
talk)
10:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)For all the London boroughs
Rename:
Category:Kensington & Chelsea to
Category:Royal_Borough_of_Kensington_and_Chelsea Note: Royal bor.
Category:Hammersmith & Fulham to Category:London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham
Category:Wandsworth to Category:London Borough of Wandsworth
Category:Lambeth to Category:London Borough of Lambeth
Category:Southwark to Category:London Borough of Southwark
Category:Tower Hamlets to Category:London Borough of Tower Hamlets
Category:Hackney to Category:London Borough of Hackney
Category: Islington to Category:London Borough of Islington
Category:Camden to
Category:London Borough of Camden
Category:Brent to
Category:London Borough of Brent
Category:Ealing to
Category:London Borough of Ealing
Category:Hounslow to
Category:London Borough of Hounslow
Category:Richmond upon Thames to
Category:London Borough of Richmond upon Thames
Category:Kingston upon Thames to
Category:Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames Note: Royal bor.
Category:Merton to
Category:London Borough of Merton
Category:Southwark to
Category:London Borough of Southwark
Category:Tower Hamlets to
Category:London Borough of Tower Hamlets
Category:Hackney to
Category:London Borough of Hackney
Category:Islington to
Category:London Borough of Islington
Category:Camden to
Category:London Borough of Camden
Category:Brent to
Category:London Borough of Brent
Category:Ealing to
Category:London Borough of Ealing
Category:Hounslow to
Category:London Borough of Hounslow
Category:Richmond upon Thames to
Category:London Borough of Richmond upon Thames
Category:Kingston upon Thames to
Category:Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames Note: Royal bro.
Nominator's rationale: Was set up wrong to start with and needs correcting. (1) The above are their proper names. (2) The current form encourages miss-understandings, as most are only the names of the towns where the council sits. and using the abbreviation, some people will and do assume, it refers to just the town. (3) The WC search tool has it appear there is not yet a suitable category for the same before said reason (the WC cats are based on the en:WP). Therefore, most Wikimedia Commons images of the London region are not getting a location cat because of this confusion. (4) The proper names are what people known them by.
More...
propose merging: after those above are done.
Category:Neighbourhoods of Barking & Dagenham to
Category:London Borough of Barking and Dagenham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Barnet to
Category:London Borough of Barnet
Category:Neighbourhoods of Bexley to
Category:London Borough of Bexley
Category:Neighbourhoods of Brent to
Category:London Borough of Brent
Category:Neighbourhoods of Bromley to
Category:London Borough of Bromley
Category:Neighbourhoods of Camden to
Category:London Borough of Camden
Category:Neighbourhoods of Croydon to
Category:London Borough of Croydon
Category:Neighbourhoods of Ealing to
Category:London Borough of Ealing
Category:Neighbourhoods of Enfield to
Category:London Borough of Enfield
Category:Neighbourhoods of Greenwich to
Category:London Borough of Greenwich
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hackney to
Category:London Borough of Hackney
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hammersmith & Fulham to
Category:London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Haringey to
Category:London Borough of Haringey
Category:Neighbourhoods of Harrow to
Category:London Borough of Harrow
Category:Neighbourhoods of Havering to
Category:London Borough of Havering
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hillingdon to
Category:London Borough of Hillingdon
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hounslow to
Category:London Borough of Hounslow
Category:Neighbourhoods of Islington to
Category:London Borough of Islington
Category:Neighbourhoods of Kensington & Chelsea to
Category:Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (note: this is the royal borough)
Category:Neighbourhoods of Kingston upon Thames to
Category:Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames Note: royal borough
Category:Neighbourhoods of Lambeth to
Category:London Borough of Lambeth
Category:Neighbourhoods of Lewisham to
Category:London Borough of Lewisham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Merton to
Category:London Borough of Merton
Category:Neighbourhoods of Newham to
Category:London Borough of Newham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Redbridge to
Category:London Borough of Redbridge there is more than one Redbridge in England but only one bor !
Category:Neighbourhoods of Richmond upon Thames to
Category:London Borough of Richmond upon Thames
Category:Neighbourhoods of Southwark to
Category:London Borough of Southwark
Category:Neighbourhoods of Sutton to
Category:London Borough of Sutton
Category:Neighbourhoods of Tower Hamlets to
Category:London Borough of Tower Hamlets
Category:Neighbourhoods of Waltham Forest to
Category:London Borough of Waltham Forest
Category:Neighbourhoods of Wandsworth to
Category:London Borough of Wandsworth
Category:Neighbourhoods of Westminster to
Category:City of Westminster Note: this is a city bor.
Category:Neighbourhoods of the City of London to
Category:City of London Note: this is a city bor.
Nominator's rationale: (1)The word 'neighbourhood' is not used in this way for UK districts in The London Region. People know and understand this cat as boroughs -if the abbreviated form is used, then it is taken to be a reference to the town instead. (2) It is leads to miss understanding. (4) It amounts to a duplicate cat of borough. (4) Most Wikimedia Commons images of the London region are not getting a location cat because of this confusion leads to the belief that a place category does not yet exist. (5) Not really suitable for the sub-divisions called wards (boundaries do not coincide). (6) Employing an uncountable substantive noun such a 'neighbourhood' is and invitation new users to proliferate even more. It is a recipe for making a spaghetti of categories.
More:
Category:Neighbourhoods in the United Kingdom Should be a 'redirect' to
Category:Districts of the United Kingdom
Rational: (1) Duplication of purpose. (2) Uses a term that is not used this way in the UK (3) Is coursing pages to be miss-categorised – i.e., Neighbourhood Management Pathfinder Programme and Neighbourhood Renewal Fund.
Rename all of:
Category:Neighbourhoods in the United Kingdom to
Category:Districts in the United Kingdom
Category:Neighbourhoods of London to
Category:Districts of London
Category:Neighbourhoods in England to
Category:Districts in England
Category:Neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland to
Category:Districts in Northern Ireland
Category:Neighbourhoods in Scotland to
Category:Districts in Scotland
Category:Neighbourhoods of Walsall to
Category:Metropolitan Borough of Walsall
Rationale: I think you should be getting the idea by now!
--
Aspro (
talk)
15:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me, we've moved on since the initial proposal, and I want to make sure we're all on the same page with regard to the changes:
Sorry, I tried to summarise where we had got to in the debate before - and codded it up. When you come back, maybe we can consider the following:
I think the only one I'm definitely against is merging current 'neighbourhoods' into 'districts', as this dilutes the meaning of the latter category. If we collapse the localities into the local authority category, it is essentially a variation of your original proposal - so, I apologise if it took such a long time for me to come round to your way of thinking! Kbthompson ( talk) 08:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
This doesn't have to be this complicated. For 30 years I have had to work with many different taxonomies concurrently.
(1)The problem here, is keeping in mind that we are two nations separated by a common language, and so we need a continuation of meaning, as the nomenclature changes across boarders, and it looks like we obviously need to make it clear, on those particular cat pages where this happens that the nomenclature has changed and why.
(2)The trick is to identify the chief characteristics of each class and keep each class quite separate. Then this problem were having with neighbourhoods becomes apparent. I have done this at the start. I have also explained 'why' on each part of each proposal. Currently, by using the North American nomenclature 'neighbourhoods of Xxxxxx' for the London area it has created a duplicate category to 'London borough of xxxx' that serves no other purpose than to confuse. It is this that started the debate because I discovered nobody over here in Europe could understand what 'Neighbourhoods of Xxxxx' was supposed to refer to, as on WP this sort of classification are fully dealt with by the other cats. Ie. see the cats on Chinatown, London. These describe the type of neighbourhood. BUT on this article they don't state what borough it is in. Maybe this is why nobody has check and discovered that the two descriptive cats don't proper link up yet with all the parent cats above it, perhaps they perhaps think it goes up via 'Neighbourhoods of Westminster'. It needs another two parent cats to be created higher up to bring the bring the European and North American Chinatowns together. For someone who does not live in London and has never spent much time in the US it must seem mindbogglingly difficult to make sense of the current category system until the changes above are made.-- Aspro ( talk) 14:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Attempting to be a bit more precise. "Type" is too vague, for one thing. - jc37 08:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Notified category creators with {{
subst:cfd-notify}}
Cgingold (
talk)
10:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)For all the London boroughs
Rename:
Category:Kensington & Chelsea to
Category:Royal_Borough_of_Kensington_and_Chelsea Note: Royal bor.
Category:Hammersmith & Fulham to Category:London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham
Category:Wandsworth to Category:London Borough of Wandsworth
Category:Lambeth to Category:London Borough of Lambeth
Category:Southwark to Category:London Borough of Southwark
Category:Tower Hamlets to Category:London Borough of Tower Hamlets
Category:Hackney to Category:London Borough of Hackney
Category: Islington to Category:London Borough of Islington
Category:Camden to
Category:London Borough of Camden
Category:Brent to
Category:London Borough of Brent
Category:Ealing to
Category:London Borough of Ealing
Category:Hounslow to
Category:London Borough of Hounslow
Category:Richmond upon Thames to
Category:London Borough of Richmond upon Thames
Category:Kingston upon Thames to
Category:Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames Note: Royal bor.
Category:Merton to
Category:London Borough of Merton
Category:Southwark to
Category:London Borough of Southwark
Category:Tower Hamlets to
Category:London Borough of Tower Hamlets
Category:Hackney to
Category:London Borough of Hackney
Category:Islington to
Category:London Borough of Islington
Category:Camden to
Category:London Borough of Camden
Category:Brent to
Category:London Borough of Brent
Category:Ealing to
Category:London Borough of Ealing
Category:Hounslow to
Category:London Borough of Hounslow
Category:Richmond upon Thames to
Category:London Borough of Richmond upon Thames
Category:Kingston upon Thames to
Category:Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames Note: Royal bro.
Nominator's rationale: Was set up wrong to start with and needs correcting. (1) The above are their proper names. (2) The current form encourages miss-understandings, as most are only the names of the towns where the council sits. and using the abbreviation, some people will and do assume, it refers to just the town. (3) The WC search tool has it appear there is not yet a suitable category for the same before said reason (the WC cats are based on the en:WP). Therefore, most Wikimedia Commons images of the London region are not getting a location cat because of this confusion. (4) The proper names are what people known them by.
More...
propose merging: after those above are done.
Category:Neighbourhoods of Barking & Dagenham to
Category:London Borough of Barking and Dagenham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Barnet to
Category:London Borough of Barnet
Category:Neighbourhoods of Bexley to
Category:London Borough of Bexley
Category:Neighbourhoods of Brent to
Category:London Borough of Brent
Category:Neighbourhoods of Bromley to
Category:London Borough of Bromley
Category:Neighbourhoods of Camden to
Category:London Borough of Camden
Category:Neighbourhoods of Croydon to
Category:London Borough of Croydon
Category:Neighbourhoods of Ealing to
Category:London Borough of Ealing
Category:Neighbourhoods of Enfield to
Category:London Borough of Enfield
Category:Neighbourhoods of Greenwich to
Category:London Borough of Greenwich
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hackney to
Category:London Borough of Hackney
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hammersmith & Fulham to
Category:London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Haringey to
Category:London Borough of Haringey
Category:Neighbourhoods of Harrow to
Category:London Borough of Harrow
Category:Neighbourhoods of Havering to
Category:London Borough of Havering
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hillingdon to
Category:London Borough of Hillingdon
Category:Neighbourhoods of Hounslow to
Category:London Borough of Hounslow
Category:Neighbourhoods of Islington to
Category:London Borough of Islington
Category:Neighbourhoods of Kensington & Chelsea to
Category:Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (note: this is the royal borough)
Category:Neighbourhoods of Kingston upon Thames to
Category:Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames Note: royal borough
Category:Neighbourhoods of Lambeth to
Category:London Borough of Lambeth
Category:Neighbourhoods of Lewisham to
Category:London Borough of Lewisham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Merton to
Category:London Borough of Merton
Category:Neighbourhoods of Newham to
Category:London Borough of Newham
Category:Neighbourhoods of Redbridge to
Category:London Borough of Redbridge there is more than one Redbridge in England but only one bor !
Category:Neighbourhoods of Richmond upon Thames to
Category:London Borough of Richmond upon Thames
Category:Neighbourhoods of Southwark to
Category:London Borough of Southwark
Category:Neighbourhoods of Sutton to
Category:London Borough of Sutton
Category:Neighbourhoods of Tower Hamlets to
Category:London Borough of Tower Hamlets
Category:Neighbourhoods of Waltham Forest to
Category:London Borough of Waltham Forest
Category:Neighbourhoods of Wandsworth to
Category:London Borough of Wandsworth
Category:Neighbourhoods of Westminster to
Category:City of Westminster Note: this is a city bor.
Category:Neighbourhoods of the City of London to
Category:City of London Note: this is a city bor.
Nominator's rationale: (1)The word 'neighbourhood' is not used in this way for UK districts in The London Region. People know and understand this cat as boroughs -if the abbreviated form is used, then it is taken to be a reference to the town instead. (2) It is leads to miss understanding. (4) It amounts to a duplicate cat of borough. (4) Most Wikimedia Commons images of the London region are not getting a location cat because of this confusion leads to the belief that a place category does not yet exist. (5) Not really suitable for the sub-divisions called wards (boundaries do not coincide). (6) Employing an uncountable substantive noun such a 'neighbourhood' is and invitation new users to proliferate even more. It is a recipe for making a spaghetti of categories.
More:
Category:Neighbourhoods in the United Kingdom Should be a 'redirect' to
Category:Districts of the United Kingdom
Rational: (1) Duplication of purpose. (2) Uses a term that is not used this way in the UK (3) Is coursing pages to be miss-categorised – i.e., Neighbourhood Management Pathfinder Programme and Neighbourhood Renewal Fund.
Rename all of:
Category:Neighbourhoods in the United Kingdom to
Category:Districts in the United Kingdom
Category:Neighbourhoods of London to
Category:Districts of London
Category:Neighbourhoods in England to
Category:Districts in England
Category:Neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland to
Category:Districts in Northern Ireland
Category:Neighbourhoods in Scotland to
Category:Districts in Scotland
Category:Neighbourhoods of Walsall to
Category:Metropolitan Borough of Walsall
Rationale: I think you should be getting the idea by now!
--
Aspro (
talk)
15:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me, we've moved on since the initial proposal, and I want to make sure we're all on the same page with regard to the changes:
Sorry, I tried to summarise where we had got to in the debate before - and codded it up. When you come back, maybe we can consider the following:
I think the only one I'm definitely against is merging current 'neighbourhoods' into 'districts', as this dilutes the meaning of the latter category. If we collapse the localities into the local authority category, it is essentially a variation of your original proposal - so, I apologise if it took such a long time for me to come round to your way of thinking! Kbthompson ( talk) 08:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
This doesn't have to be this complicated. For 30 years I have had to work with many different taxonomies concurrently.
(1)The problem here, is keeping in mind that we are two nations separated by a common language, and so we need a continuation of meaning, as the nomenclature changes across boarders, and it looks like we obviously need to make it clear, on those particular cat pages where this happens that the nomenclature has changed and why.
(2)The trick is to identify the chief characteristics of each class and keep each class quite separate. Then this problem were having with neighbourhoods becomes apparent. I have done this at the start. I have also explained 'why' on each part of each proposal. Currently, by using the North American nomenclature 'neighbourhoods of Xxxxxx' for the London area it has created a duplicate category to 'London borough of xxxx' that serves no other purpose than to confuse. It is this that started the debate because I discovered nobody over here in Europe could understand what 'Neighbourhoods of Xxxxx' was supposed to refer to, as on WP this sort of classification are fully dealt with by the other cats. Ie. see the cats on Chinatown, London. These describe the type of neighbourhood. BUT on this article they don't state what borough it is in. Maybe this is why nobody has check and discovered that the two descriptive cats don't proper link up yet with all the parent cats above it, perhaps they perhaps think it goes up via 'Neighbourhoods of Westminster'. It needs another two parent cats to be created higher up to bring the bring the European and North American Chinatowns together. For someone who does not live in London and has never spent much time in the US it must seem mindbogglingly difficult to make sense of the current category system until the changes above are made.-- Aspro ( talk) 14:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Attempting to be a bit more precise. "Type" is too vague, for one thing. - jc37 08:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)