The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: United States of America standardly refered to as 'the United States' and not 'America' in category page naming on wikip.
Mayumashu (
talk)
23:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cork
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Category:Sexy babes!
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Category:Port cities on the Caribbean Sea
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Category:Alice sitcom characters
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. Although I have my doubts that these characters are independently notable enough to sustain fictional biography articles, they at the moment exist so the category should be named in line with the main article
Alice (TV series) and other similar characters articles. If this CFD inspires someone to go through the articles and merge them into a list, so much the better.
Otto4711 (
talk)
05:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
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Categories:Australians by ethnicity or national descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
there s nothing inherent in 'Fooian-Booian' that limits descent to an arbitrary number of generations that I can gather. A number of articles such as
American Australian describe an Australian American as an em/immigrant or a descendant of a anglophone North Ameican as Austr-Amer. without specifying a number of generations. Secondly, if one takes what is said on
American Australian presently, wrt to the number of generations, as erroneous, then who decides the number ofgenerations that does validly describe an American Australian (and not an Australian of American descent). Is it one? two? three? Thirdly, concerns that just any white Australian named 'Smith' or 'Johnson' will be named as Australian of British descent is limited severely by the burden of contributors to supply a source for any assertion.
Mayumashu (
talk)
02:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Note that for example
Category:Irish Australians and
Category:Australians of Irish descent already both exist - that is because they mean two different things. American Australian is not a good example - 2 newish countries - the Irish or Huguenot examples are stronger at drawing the distinction. Sources for genealogy are easy. I have for example concerns already at the list at
Irish Australian#List of notable Irish Australians and currently tackling an approach - the first is to facilitate an opportunity to put the Irish and Australian connetion in the list to make explicit the claims. I would say
Simon Crean whose grandfather was of Irish descent shouldn't be thought of as an Irish Australian but clearly is an Australian of Irish descent. --
Matildatalk03:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
There certainly is a difference, I m the first one to acknowledge that. I happen to agree with you too that someone who is a quarter of an ancestry is Fooian of Booian descent and not Booian-Fooian. But what of 1/2? or 100% ethnicity but third or fourth generation? It is far too much an exercise in arbitrariness, and this presents three problems, it becomes original research (I m quite sure no reputable source would 'state' that someone of 1/2 is Fooian-Booian and s.o. of 1/4 is not); it would result in an endless editing battle based on personal interpretations of contributors as to what is to be meant by Fooian-Booian; thirdly, it would be hell to monitor, assuming contributors could agree on an arbitrary working definition, for infrequent contributors would not take the trouble to sort figure out the 'correct' links. and I disagree that reliable genealogically sources are easy to come by. lets see this renaming through, provide a self-evidently semantically clear naming and let the burden of providing sources naturally limit the number of links.
Mayumashu (
talk)
03:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Change to Support - I am for consistency. I don't want two tiers of cats and argument about which applies - in other words I would want only want Category:Australians of Irish descent and thus the broader cat applies. The arguments about categorisation will depend on sources and notability of the link. While Simon Crean can be reliably sourced as being of Irish descent, the challenge I would mount is to whether that is important as having a significant influence. I would care less about categorisation so much as to whether he was a notable Irish Australian - I would say notable but not as an Irish Australian - there is no assertion in his biography that his heritage has been of significance. So I think there is further work to set up some guidelines on ethnicity, when it should give rise to somebody being in a category and when ethnicity should be regarded as strong enough for somebody to be included in a list of notable Booean Fooians - the
One-drop rule is not one I think is worth adopting. --
Matildatalk06:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Support all per previous similar cfds and per very good Mayumashu/Matilda exchange above. ('Foo-born/natives of foo' categories tend to get deleted as non-defining.)
-- roundhouse0 (
talk)
09:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Strong Support - "Australians of Fooian descent" is a far more accurate and less ambiguous description than "Fooian Australians" and less subject to the "categoriser" using
WP:OR in making his or her decision to categorise. --
AussieLegend (
talk)
11:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose change to Support, i believe that the individual page should be edited. Many newer australians do not consider themselves as Australians nor are all of them citizens. Many plan on returning to their homeland. Also many organisations are for the "italian-australian" community or "greek-australian" community, they dont have societies for the "Australians of Italian descent". Also by having "people of ABCian descent" it automatically refers to people, while just "ABCian Australians" can refer to organisations or settlement or something else from the ethnic group.
PMK1 (
talk)
13:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Strongly Oppose .. neither of the naming conventions are sufficiently unambigious or precise to serve a truly reliable, verifiable, and certain encyclopaedic function .. yet:
1. x-Australians should be kept, as Australia does allow dual citizenship, and there will therefore still be people with dual citizenship(excepting for those X's that do not allow dual citizenship)
2. Australians of x descent is largely meaningless without some self-identifying 'ethnic' limit .. effectively inviting editors/contributors to simply keep adding each and every notable Australian citizen/ permanent residents to (potentially) 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 different articles as records are found tracing descent back through parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents .. particularly as DNA generated geneaeological links and data arise out of foundations like
the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation ..
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People by city in Alberta
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: These 2 Alberta city categories are propsing for renaming. For Leduc, Alberta, The
Category and the
Main Article is titled Leduc, Alberta and it does not have the word city in brackets. For Camrose, Alberta, the
Main Article is titled Camrose, Alberta and it also does not have brackets. These 2 propsed rename categories without the brackets are still located in the category titled
Category:People by city in Alberta. These 2 categories have to be renamed to match both main articles.
Steam5 (
talk)
01:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - There is a category and main article titled Leduc, Alberta, without using the brackets and Camrose, Alberta is also titled without the brackets. The titles Leduc County and Camrose County doesn't need the word county in brackets, these categories has to be renamed.
Steam5 (
talk)
09:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes, I understood that from your initial nomination comments. Sometimes the naming formats of categories diverges slightly from the main article. In the case of cities and districts or counties with the same name, it's not uncommon to use "(city)" in brackets for disambiguation.
Good Ol’factory(talk)23:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Good Ol'factory. Having 'city' is in parenthesis is appropriate - it reflects that the disambiguate is of a secondary nature, not necessary for most people who when using 'Camrose' or 'Leduc' are refering to the city and not the county (and when refering to the county say 'Camrose County'), but in place as a means for having explicit clarity. I support having cat page names more explicity, self-evidently and less colloquially named then article pages and get the feeling that the majority of regular contributors (to WP:Cat pages for discussion at least) feel the same way.
Mayumashu (
talk)
00:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - What did I tell you, opposing users, there is a category and main article titled Leduc, Alberta and it does not need the word (city) in brackets for an example check the category
Category:Leduc, Alberta and the main article
Leduc, Alberta these are the two sampled titles, and read my comments above and way above, but still, these categories are proposing for renaming.
Steam5 (
talk)
01:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - I am not missing the point and do not support to rename Category:Leduc (city), Alberta in the future, I have already make correct comments from above and way above.
Steam5 (
talk)
07:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
OK, I wasn't sure because you kept responding to others' comments, repeating what you said initially. You only need to say it once in the nomination, really.
Good Ol’factory(talk)07:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - User:Roundhouse0, I already make correct comments about the brackets would not used. Read my correct comments above and the nominator's rationale.
Steam5 (
talk)
00:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: United States of America standardly refered to as 'the United States' and not 'America' in category page naming on wikip.
Mayumashu (
talk)
23:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Cork
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Sexy babes!
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Port cities on the Caribbean Sea
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Alice sitcom characters
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. Although I have my doubts that these characters are independently notable enough to sustain fictional biography articles, they at the moment exist so the category should be named in line with the main article
Alice (TV series) and other similar characters articles. If this CFD inspires someone to go through the articles and merge them into a list, so much the better.
Otto4711 (
talk)
05:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Categories:Australians by ethnicity or national descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
there s nothing inherent in 'Fooian-Booian' that limits descent to an arbitrary number of generations that I can gather. A number of articles such as
American Australian describe an Australian American as an em/immigrant or a descendant of a anglophone North Ameican as Austr-Amer. without specifying a number of generations. Secondly, if one takes what is said on
American Australian presently, wrt to the number of generations, as erroneous, then who decides the number ofgenerations that does validly describe an American Australian (and not an Australian of American descent). Is it one? two? three? Thirdly, concerns that just any white Australian named 'Smith' or 'Johnson' will be named as Australian of British descent is limited severely by the burden of contributors to supply a source for any assertion.
Mayumashu (
talk)
02:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Note that for example
Category:Irish Australians and
Category:Australians of Irish descent already both exist - that is because they mean two different things. American Australian is not a good example - 2 newish countries - the Irish or Huguenot examples are stronger at drawing the distinction. Sources for genealogy are easy. I have for example concerns already at the list at
Irish Australian#List of notable Irish Australians and currently tackling an approach - the first is to facilitate an opportunity to put the Irish and Australian connetion in the list to make explicit the claims. I would say
Simon Crean whose grandfather was of Irish descent shouldn't be thought of as an Irish Australian but clearly is an Australian of Irish descent. --
Matildatalk03:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
There certainly is a difference, I m the first one to acknowledge that. I happen to agree with you too that someone who is a quarter of an ancestry is Fooian of Booian descent and not Booian-Fooian. But what of 1/2? or 100% ethnicity but third or fourth generation? It is far too much an exercise in arbitrariness, and this presents three problems, it becomes original research (I m quite sure no reputable source would 'state' that someone of 1/2 is Fooian-Booian and s.o. of 1/4 is not); it would result in an endless editing battle based on personal interpretations of contributors as to what is to be meant by Fooian-Booian; thirdly, it would be hell to monitor, assuming contributors could agree on an arbitrary working definition, for infrequent contributors would not take the trouble to sort figure out the 'correct' links. and I disagree that reliable genealogically sources are easy to come by. lets see this renaming through, provide a self-evidently semantically clear naming and let the burden of providing sources naturally limit the number of links.
Mayumashu (
talk)
03:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Change to Support - I am for consistency. I don't want two tiers of cats and argument about which applies - in other words I would want only want Category:Australians of Irish descent and thus the broader cat applies. The arguments about categorisation will depend on sources and notability of the link. While Simon Crean can be reliably sourced as being of Irish descent, the challenge I would mount is to whether that is important as having a significant influence. I would care less about categorisation so much as to whether he was a notable Irish Australian - I would say notable but not as an Irish Australian - there is no assertion in his biography that his heritage has been of significance. So I think there is further work to set up some guidelines on ethnicity, when it should give rise to somebody being in a category and when ethnicity should be regarded as strong enough for somebody to be included in a list of notable Booean Fooians - the
One-drop rule is not one I think is worth adopting. --
Matildatalk06:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Support all per previous similar cfds and per very good Mayumashu/Matilda exchange above. ('Foo-born/natives of foo' categories tend to get deleted as non-defining.)
-- roundhouse0 (
talk)
09:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Strong Support - "Australians of Fooian descent" is a far more accurate and less ambiguous description than "Fooian Australians" and less subject to the "categoriser" using
WP:OR in making his or her decision to categorise. --
AussieLegend (
talk)
11:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose change to Support, i believe that the individual page should be edited. Many newer australians do not consider themselves as Australians nor are all of them citizens. Many plan on returning to their homeland. Also many organisations are for the "italian-australian" community or "greek-australian" community, they dont have societies for the "Australians of Italian descent". Also by having "people of ABCian descent" it automatically refers to people, while just "ABCian Australians" can refer to organisations or settlement or something else from the ethnic group.
PMK1 (
talk)
13:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Strongly Oppose .. neither of the naming conventions are sufficiently unambigious or precise to serve a truly reliable, verifiable, and certain encyclopaedic function .. yet:
1. x-Australians should be kept, as Australia does allow dual citizenship, and there will therefore still be people with dual citizenship(excepting for those X's that do not allow dual citizenship)
2. Australians of x descent is largely meaningless without some self-identifying 'ethnic' limit .. effectively inviting editors/contributors to simply keep adding each and every notable Australian citizen/ permanent residents to (potentially) 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 different articles as records are found tracing descent back through parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents .. particularly as DNA generated geneaeological links and data arise out of foundations like
the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation ..
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People by city in Alberta
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: These 2 Alberta city categories are propsing for renaming. For Leduc, Alberta, The
Category and the
Main Article is titled Leduc, Alberta and it does not have the word city in brackets. For Camrose, Alberta, the
Main Article is titled Camrose, Alberta and it also does not have brackets. These 2 propsed rename categories without the brackets are still located in the category titled
Category:People by city in Alberta. These 2 categories have to be renamed to match both main articles.
Steam5 (
talk)
01:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - There is a category and main article titled Leduc, Alberta, without using the brackets and Camrose, Alberta is also titled without the brackets. The titles Leduc County and Camrose County doesn't need the word county in brackets, these categories has to be renamed.
Steam5 (
talk)
09:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes, I understood that from your initial nomination comments. Sometimes the naming formats of categories diverges slightly from the main article. In the case of cities and districts or counties with the same name, it's not uncommon to use "(city)" in brackets for disambiguation.
Good Ol’factory(talk)23:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Good Ol'factory. Having 'city' is in parenthesis is appropriate - it reflects that the disambiguate is of a secondary nature, not necessary for most people who when using 'Camrose' or 'Leduc' are refering to the city and not the county (and when refering to the county say 'Camrose County'), but in place as a means for having explicit clarity. I support having cat page names more explicity, self-evidently and less colloquially named then article pages and get the feeling that the majority of regular contributors (to WP:Cat pages for discussion at least) feel the same way.
Mayumashu (
talk)
00:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - What did I tell you, opposing users, there is a category and main article titled Leduc, Alberta and it does not need the word (city) in brackets for an example check the category
Category:Leduc, Alberta and the main article
Leduc, Alberta these are the two sampled titles, and read my comments above and way above, but still, these categories are proposing for renaming.
Steam5 (
talk)
01:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - I am not missing the point and do not support to rename Category:Leduc (city), Alberta in the future, I have already make correct comments from above and way above.
Steam5 (
talk)
07:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
OK, I wasn't sure because you kept responding to others' comments, repeating what you said initially. You only need to say it once in the nomination, really.
Good Ol’factory(talk)07:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment - User:Roundhouse0, I already make correct comments about the brackets would not used. Read my correct comments above and the nominator's rationale.
Steam5 (
talk)
00:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.