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Nominator's rationale:Merge. Single-item category, likelihood of expansion is low, no need to split off the one article from the parent.
Otto4711 (
talk)
23:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:NHL fight songs
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Category:NFL fight songs
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Category:MLB fight songs
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Category:Major League Baseball music
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Category:Rugby songs
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Nominator's rationale:Delete - overly broad inclusion criterion. There literally is no known song that couldn't be sung after a rugby match, therefore every song article is eligible for inclusion in this category.
Otto4711 (
talk)
22:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Delete as ambiguous and POV. What exactly is excluded by 'drinking songs sung by rugby players after the game at the after-party'. Maybe we could use the definition as the title then it would not be as ambiguous but would be a sextuple intersection.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Memorial music
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Nominator's rationale:Delete -
overcategorization based on trivial characteristic. Overly broad ("has been used at") and POV ("suitable for") inclusion criteria. Any piece of music can be used at a funeral or memorial. There was just a story on the radio on Sunday that mentioned that such songs as
Highway to Hell and
Stairway to Heaven are becoming popular at memorial services. Categorizing compositions on the basis of the purposes to which they can be or have been put will lead to category clutter.
Otto4711 (
talk)
22:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Folk songs adapted by Joan Baez
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Category:Fictional obese characters
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Nominator's rationale: This category includes fictional characters that were never even mentioned as overweight, let alone obese (see
Nelson Muntz); in addition, it seems to be munging the idea of what is overweight v. what is obese -- all in all this is a nonsense category.
Quaeler (
talk)
20:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Asteroids, discovered in April 2008
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Category:United States ambassadors to the United Nations
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However this is not to a country so the exception might make sense. Or are we going to see a proposal to rename all of the other categories?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ambassadors of the United Kingdom to the Soviet Union
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Category:Ambassadors of Russia to Latvia
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Oppose This category is placed in
Category:Ambassadors of Russia and
Category:Ambassadors to Latvia, joining the two would give you Ambassadors of Russia to Latvia. There is a difference with these categories, in relation to say
Category:Russian actors, because in diplomatic terms the titles aren't Russian ambassador but Ambassador of Russia, as it isn't their nationality or ethnicity which is the qualifier, but the State which they are representing. Take
Philipp von Brunnow, that's a German name if ever I saw one, and yes, he was German, not Russian, yet he was an Ambassador of Russia. Additionally, in terms of briefness, the suggested category rename is 1 character more than the current category. --
РоссавиаДиалог19:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom for consistency. If Russavia wants to propose a wholesale rename for all ambassadors categories according to the principles he has set out, he's free to do so, but until then the categories should be named consistently to avoid confusion in the meantime. Anyways, "Russian" can also mean "of Russia as a state", and does not necessarily imply nationality or ethnicity. Thus, a "Russian ambassador" can mean an ambassador of the state of Russia, regardless of that individual's nationality or ethnicity. I don't know which is in more common usage, but I do know that it's not uncommon for me to hear/read in news about the "Russian ambassador" or the "American ambassador", etc.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ambassadors of Russia to the United Nations
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Oppose This category is placed in
Category:Ambassadors of Russia and
Category:Ambassadors to the United Nations, joining the two would give you Ambassadors of Russia to the United Nations. There is a difference with these categories, in relation to say
Category:Russian actors, because in diplomatic terms the titles aren't Russian ambassador but Ambassador of Russia, as it isn't their nationality or ethnicity which is the qualifier, but the State which they are representing. Take
Philipp von Brunnow, that's a German name if ever I saw one, and yes, he was German, not Russian, yet he was an Ambassador of Russia. Additionally, in terms of briefness, the suggested category rename is 1 character more than the current category. --
РоссавиаДиалог19:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm confused by the joining comment. We are not joining anything. I guess you are suggesting that if the category has two parents you would think both of those name should be in the category name. That is not the case. What would we do with 4 parents? Length is only a consideration when you have two well suited options. Otherwise it is only a minor consideration if considered at all.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm also confused by the character counting as the difference is between 'of Russia' and 'Russian', and I make the 2nd one shorter by 2 characters.
-- roundhouse0 (
talk)
01:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom for consistency. If Russavia wants to propose a wholesale rename for all ambassadors categories according to the principles he has set out, he's free to do so, but until then the categories should be named consistently to avoid confusion in the meantime. Anyways, "Russian" can also mean "of Russia as a state", and does not necessarily imply nationality or ethnicity. Thus, a "Russian ambassador" can mean an ambassador of the state of Russia, regardless of that individual's nationality or ethnicity. I don't know which is in more common usage, but I do know that it's not uncommon for me to hear/read in news about the "Russian ambassador" or the "American ambassador", etc. to the UN.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Final Fantasy III
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Category:Fictional agnostics
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Category:Jamaican-American actors
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Nominator's rationale:Delete, overcategorization, arbitrary intersection. No evidence that acting is significant for Jamaican-Americans or that American actors of Jamaican background are a distinctive, recognized, studied group. As expected, from browsing the handful of entries, the individuals for whom their Jamaican heritage is most prominent are not particularly known for being actors, and those known for being actors are not prominently known for being Jamaican. Anyone can make a sourced list if they like, and I won't complain.
Postdlf (
talk)
05:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bahamian-American actors
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Nominator's rationale:Delete, overcategorization and arbitrary intersection. No reason to believe that Bahamian-American actors have been recognized as a distinct, definitive subgrouping of either American actors or of Bahamian-Americans. Only one entry and not likely to expand; that
one article is already in all the logical categories so there is no need for upmerge.
Postdlf (
talk)
04:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Croatian-Australian Socceroos
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The result of the discussion was:Delete/Listify - Ok, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to restore the list which was deleted by the AfD discussion, as there seems to be consensus in this discussion that this should be a list rather than a category. I'm also going to leave a note with the AfD closer. Note that this closure does not prevent a nomination at
WP:DRV, and those concerned are welcome to, if they wish. (Though I'd appreciate notification if they do : ) -
jc3709:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I created the category. Previously there was a page title 'list of Croatian-Australian Socceroos', which was deleted. At the time through a similar discussion the consensus was that such a thing would be better suited as a Caetgory. Yet now thats not fine either?
MelbCro (
talk)
08:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Arrghh! That's appalling. Could you give us a link to that discussion? I can only say that the folks who took part in that AFD are utterly clueless as to what qualifies as a valid category. Good grief.
Cgingold (
talk)
09:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Remark – it's at
this afd. Perhaps a template? Seriously, I can't see what is wrong with a sourced list, but for a category one would need a potential article on the distinctive contribution of Croatian-Australians to the Socceroos, otherwise it's a trivial intersection.
-- roundhouse0 (
talk)
10:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Restore list and delete category. This sort of thing happens much to much. We need to have a serious discussion with the AFD participants about what makes a good category! --
☑ SamuelWantman19:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Yup, it's an ongoing problem -- not really sure what can be done, though, short of adding a stern admonition somewhere in the AFD guidelines.
Cgingold (
talk)
03:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep, I realise this will most likely be unpopular, but I don't really see what's wrong with this category. The criteria for inclusion are pretty well defined, and "not needed or relevant" is a pretty subjective judgement to make.
Lankiveil(
speak to me)04:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC).reply
What you need to understand is that we don't even have concensus on categories for Ethnicity by Occupation -- some are kept, some get deleted. In this case, we're not just talking about ‹The
templateCat is being
considered for merging.›Category:Croatian-Australian footballers, we're talking about another whole step beyond that. As far as I'm aware, this category is quite unique in that respect -- and there is virtually no support for categorizing at that level of detail. That's why I said "the folks who took part in that AFD are utterly clueless as to what qualifies as a valid category." Given that the AFD decision was based in large part on the seriously erroneous assumption that the list made better sense as a Category, I would suggest taking it to
WP:DRV and getting the decision reversed.
Cgingold (
talk)
08:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
As per the comment above me (and risking
WP:OTHERSTUFF here), I don't really see why this is so terrible, or what guidelines it breaches. I'm keeping an open mind on this one though and could perhaps be persuaded to change my view. I'd also have no objection to a rename to bring it into line with other similar categories. Full disclosure: I voted "categorise" in the original AfD discussion.
Lankiveil(
speak to me)03:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC).reply
Fair question. The guideline breached is
Wikipedia:Overcategorization. This category is essentially a triple intersection. It is Croatian X Austrailian X Socceroos. Imagine that an article is in 8 primary categories and then calculate how many categories there would be if we had all the possible triple intersections. The other guideline is
Wikipedia:Categorization which at the very top of the page in the nutshell box says that categories should be for "defining" characteristics. --
☑ SamuelWantman07:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Listify, this info is much more suited to a list, I would suggest finding a number of good sources for each of these players, info on years, caps(goals) etc then recreating the list in userspace. Once this is done, take it to Deletion review.
EP21:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Railway stations in Idado
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Category:Nazi glossary
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Category:We didn't start the fire
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Extinguish - being mentioned in a pop song is not in the slightest a defining characteristic of those who are mentioned.
Otto4711 (
talk)
00:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
It may not define them but it does define (for lack of a better word) demonstrate their level of influence.--
*Kat* (
talk)
01:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
The cultural references within the song are listed at the song's article. That a songwriter decades after the fact happened to mention some historical person or event doesn't mean that it should serve as the basis for a category.
Otto4711 (
talk)
01:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Do as you will. I realize now that this category is in violation of the rules as they now stand. I had not realized that those rules had become so detailed. My motivation behind creating this category was to link these articles together in a new and novel way. Although I admit the category might not have been particularly useful and that it could have been given a different name, I still think that it, and categories like it, have a place on Wikipedia. Perhaps there should be two types of categories. One for regular "categorization" and one for "common factors". Just a thought.--
*Kat* (
talk)
01:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
comment I'm not worried about the rules, to be honest, I have no idea what the "rules" are for categories, but this category serves no purpose. The article on the song itself provides links to every one of the references if anyone is curious, so the category adds nothing but un-needed clutter.
Beeblbrox (
talk)
03:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:Merge. Single-item category, likelihood of expansion is low, no need to split off the one article from the parent.
Otto4711 (
talk)
23:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:NHL fight songs
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Category:NFL fight songs
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Category:MLB fight songs
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Category:Major League Baseball music
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Category:Rugby songs
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Nominator's rationale:Delete - overly broad inclusion criterion. There literally is no known song that couldn't be sung after a rugby match, therefore every song article is eligible for inclusion in this category.
Otto4711 (
talk)
22:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Delete as ambiguous and POV. What exactly is excluded by 'drinking songs sung by rugby players after the game at the after-party'. Maybe we could use the definition as the title then it would not be as ambiguous but would be a sextuple intersection.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Memorial music
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Nominator's rationale:Delete -
overcategorization based on trivial characteristic. Overly broad ("has been used at") and POV ("suitable for") inclusion criteria. Any piece of music can be used at a funeral or memorial. There was just a story on the radio on Sunday that mentioned that such songs as
Highway to Hell and
Stairway to Heaven are becoming popular at memorial services. Categorizing compositions on the basis of the purposes to which they can be or have been put will lead to category clutter.
Otto4711 (
talk)
22:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Folk songs adapted by Joan Baez
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Category:Fictional obese characters
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Nominator's rationale: This category includes fictional characters that were never even mentioned as overweight, let alone obese (see
Nelson Muntz); in addition, it seems to be munging the idea of what is overweight v. what is obese -- all in all this is a nonsense category.
Quaeler (
talk)
20:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Asteroids, discovered in April 2008
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Category:United States ambassadors to the United Nations
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However this is not to a country so the exception might make sense. Or are we going to see a proposal to rename all of the other categories?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ambassadors of the United Kingdom to the Soviet Union
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Category:Ambassadors of Russia to Latvia
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Oppose This category is placed in
Category:Ambassadors of Russia and
Category:Ambassadors to Latvia, joining the two would give you Ambassadors of Russia to Latvia. There is a difference with these categories, in relation to say
Category:Russian actors, because in diplomatic terms the titles aren't Russian ambassador but Ambassador of Russia, as it isn't their nationality or ethnicity which is the qualifier, but the State which they are representing. Take
Philipp von Brunnow, that's a German name if ever I saw one, and yes, he was German, not Russian, yet he was an Ambassador of Russia. Additionally, in terms of briefness, the suggested category rename is 1 character more than the current category. --
РоссавиаДиалог19:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom for consistency. If Russavia wants to propose a wholesale rename for all ambassadors categories according to the principles he has set out, he's free to do so, but until then the categories should be named consistently to avoid confusion in the meantime. Anyways, "Russian" can also mean "of Russia as a state", and does not necessarily imply nationality or ethnicity. Thus, a "Russian ambassador" can mean an ambassador of the state of Russia, regardless of that individual's nationality or ethnicity. I don't know which is in more common usage, but I do know that it's not uncommon for me to hear/read in news about the "Russian ambassador" or the "American ambassador", etc.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ambassadors of Russia to the United Nations
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Oppose This category is placed in
Category:Ambassadors of Russia and
Category:Ambassadors to the United Nations, joining the two would give you Ambassadors of Russia to the United Nations. There is a difference with these categories, in relation to say
Category:Russian actors, because in diplomatic terms the titles aren't Russian ambassador but Ambassador of Russia, as it isn't their nationality or ethnicity which is the qualifier, but the State which they are representing. Take
Philipp von Brunnow, that's a German name if ever I saw one, and yes, he was German, not Russian, yet he was an Ambassador of Russia. Additionally, in terms of briefness, the suggested category rename is 1 character more than the current category. --
РоссавиаДиалог19:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm confused by the joining comment. We are not joining anything. I guess you are suggesting that if the category has two parents you would think both of those name should be in the category name. That is not the case. What would we do with 4 parents? Length is only a consideration when you have two well suited options. Otherwise it is only a minor consideration if considered at all.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm also confused by the character counting as the difference is between 'of Russia' and 'Russian', and I make the 2nd one shorter by 2 characters.
-- roundhouse0 (
talk)
01:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom for consistency. If Russavia wants to propose a wholesale rename for all ambassadors categories according to the principles he has set out, he's free to do so, but until then the categories should be named consistently to avoid confusion in the meantime. Anyways, "Russian" can also mean "of Russia as a state", and does not necessarily imply nationality or ethnicity. Thus, a "Russian ambassador" can mean an ambassador of the state of Russia, regardless of that individual's nationality or ethnicity. I don't know which is in more common usage, but I do know that it's not uncommon for me to hear/read in news about the "Russian ambassador" or the "American ambassador", etc. to the UN.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Final Fantasy III
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Category:Fictional agnostics
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Category:Jamaican-American actors
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Nominator's rationale:Delete, overcategorization, arbitrary intersection. No evidence that acting is significant for Jamaican-Americans or that American actors of Jamaican background are a distinctive, recognized, studied group. As expected, from browsing the handful of entries, the individuals for whom their Jamaican heritage is most prominent are not particularly known for being actors, and those known for being actors are not prominently known for being Jamaican. Anyone can make a sourced list if they like, and I won't complain.
Postdlf (
talk)
05:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bahamian-American actors
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Nominator's rationale:Delete, overcategorization and arbitrary intersection. No reason to believe that Bahamian-American actors have been recognized as a distinct, definitive subgrouping of either American actors or of Bahamian-Americans. Only one entry and not likely to expand; that
one article is already in all the logical categories so there is no need for upmerge.
Postdlf (
talk)
04:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Croatian-Australian Socceroos
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The result of the discussion was:Delete/Listify - Ok, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to restore the list which was deleted by the AfD discussion, as there seems to be consensus in this discussion that this should be a list rather than a category. I'm also going to leave a note with the AfD closer. Note that this closure does not prevent a nomination at
WP:DRV, and those concerned are welcome to, if they wish. (Though I'd appreciate notification if they do : ) -
jc3709:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)reply
I created the category. Previously there was a page title 'list of Croatian-Australian Socceroos', which was deleted. At the time through a similar discussion the consensus was that such a thing would be better suited as a Caetgory. Yet now thats not fine either?
MelbCro (
talk)
08:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Arrghh! That's appalling. Could you give us a link to that discussion? I can only say that the folks who took part in that AFD are utterly clueless as to what qualifies as a valid category. Good grief.
Cgingold (
talk)
09:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Remark – it's at
this afd. Perhaps a template? Seriously, I can't see what is wrong with a sourced list, but for a category one would need a potential article on the distinctive contribution of Croatian-Australians to the Socceroos, otherwise it's a trivial intersection.
-- roundhouse0 (
talk)
10:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Restore list and delete category. This sort of thing happens much to much. We need to have a serious discussion with the AFD participants about what makes a good category! --
☑ SamuelWantman19:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Yup, it's an ongoing problem -- not really sure what can be done, though, short of adding a stern admonition somewhere in the AFD guidelines.
Cgingold (
talk)
03:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep, I realise this will most likely be unpopular, but I don't really see what's wrong with this category. The criteria for inclusion are pretty well defined, and "not needed or relevant" is a pretty subjective judgement to make.
Lankiveil(
speak to me)04:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC).reply
What you need to understand is that we don't even have concensus on categories for Ethnicity by Occupation -- some are kept, some get deleted. In this case, we're not just talking about ‹The
templateCat is being
considered for merging.›Category:Croatian-Australian footballers, we're talking about another whole step beyond that. As far as I'm aware, this category is quite unique in that respect -- and there is virtually no support for categorizing at that level of detail. That's why I said "the folks who took part in that AFD are utterly clueless as to what qualifies as a valid category." Given that the AFD decision was based in large part on the seriously erroneous assumption that the list made better sense as a Category, I would suggest taking it to
WP:DRV and getting the decision reversed.
Cgingold (
talk)
08:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)reply
As per the comment above me (and risking
WP:OTHERSTUFF here), I don't really see why this is so terrible, or what guidelines it breaches. I'm keeping an open mind on this one though and could perhaps be persuaded to change my view. I'd also have no objection to a rename to bring it into line with other similar categories. Full disclosure: I voted "categorise" in the original AfD discussion.
Lankiveil(
speak to me)03:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC).reply
Fair question. The guideline breached is
Wikipedia:Overcategorization. This category is essentially a triple intersection. It is Croatian X Austrailian X Socceroos. Imagine that an article is in 8 primary categories and then calculate how many categories there would be if we had all the possible triple intersections. The other guideline is
Wikipedia:Categorization which at the very top of the page in the nutshell box says that categories should be for "defining" characteristics. --
☑ SamuelWantman07:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Listify, this info is much more suited to a list, I would suggest finding a number of good sources for each of these players, info on years, caps(goals) etc then recreating the list in userspace. Once this is done, take it to Deletion review.
EP21:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Railway stations in Idado
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Category:Nazi glossary
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Category:We didn't start the fire
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Extinguish - being mentioned in a pop song is not in the slightest a defining characteristic of those who are mentioned.
Otto4711 (
talk)
00:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
It may not define them but it does define (for lack of a better word) demonstrate their level of influence.--
*Kat* (
talk)
01:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
The cultural references within the song are listed at the song's article. That a songwriter decades after the fact happened to mention some historical person or event doesn't mean that it should serve as the basis for a category.
Otto4711 (
talk)
01:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
Do as you will. I realize now that this category is in violation of the rules as they now stand. I had not realized that those rules had become so detailed. My motivation behind creating this category was to link these articles together in a new and novel way. Although I admit the category might not have been particularly useful and that it could have been given a different name, I still think that it, and categories like it, have a place on Wikipedia. Perhaps there should be two types of categories. One for regular "categorization" and one for "common factors". Just a thought.--
*Kat* (
talk)
01:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
comment I'm not worried about the rules, to be honest, I have no idea what the "rules" are for categories, but this category serves no purpose. The article on the song itself provides links to every one of the references if anyone is curious, so the category adds nothing but un-needed clutter.
Beeblbrox (
talk)
03:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)reply
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