Operator: Ganeshk ( talk · contribs)
Automatic or Manually assisted: Automatic
Programming language(s): AutoWikiBrowser and CSVLoader
Source code available: Yes, available at WP:CSV and WP:WRMS
Function overview: To create gastropod species and genera articles based on data downloaded from the WoRMS database. The bot will run under the supervision of the Gastropods project.
Links to relevant discussions (where appropriate):
Edit period(s): Weekly
Estimated number of pages affected: 500 per week
Exclusion compliant (Y/N): N/A
Already has a bot flag (Y/N): Y
Function details: The bot will create species and genera articles under the supervision of WikiProject Gastropods. Here are the steps:
There are about 10,000 species articles (approx.) that are yet to be created.
Note: This bot has been approved to create a smaller set of similar stubs in March, 2010. This request is for getting an approval for all new families approved by Gastropods project.
Note: For anyone new to the discussion, in Ganeshbot 4 (later amended at Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group/Archive 7#Wrong way of the close a BRFA) this bot was approved to create about 580 stubs for the genus Conus. Despite stating that "about 580 stubs will be created (nothing more)", [1] Ganeshk was somehow under the impression that further approval was not required to create additional articles. When this was brought to the community's attention at various places, including WT:Bots/Requests for approval#Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Ganeshbot 4, Ganeshk stopped creating the articles without approval. Anomie ⚔ 02:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Needs wider discussion. I see you already informed WikiProject Gastropods. Please advertise this request at WP:VPR to solicit input from the wider community. Anomie ⚔ 02:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
How many articles can the gastgropod project check with just a few active members? The bot created about 100 stubs a day for the past few months for a total of 15000 stubs? Have these 15000 stubs been checked? I checked a few and found concerns. I volunteered to point out problems if I could speak directly to the gastropod family experts, but I was insulted by a gastropod member for my poor spelling, repeatedly insulted. I think the inability to work with other members of the community and the unwillingness to accept criticism and the tendency to focus on personal insults over taxonomic issues spell disaster for this bot. The bot is either continuing to run or is being operated as an account assistant by its operator, this also makes it hard to know what the bot is doing. The operator will have to have all rules of bot operation explicity outlined, as he took his own statement of "580 articles (nothing more)" to mean 15000 articles. What other bot rules will be misinterpreted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaRoad ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I am also concerned that gastropod members are using what they consider a "somewhat reliable" resource that is evolving through time like Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia articles. Writers are expected to use reliable, stable, and non-primary sources, not "somewhat reliable" sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaRoad ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support As I have written previously there is unified support of this by Wikiproject gastropods members. The bot is running since March 2010 without any problems. I would like to thank to User:JaRoad, who have found a "mistake" affecting 6 articles (or maximally up to additional 10 articles, and some thinks that it even was not an mistake) in highly specialized theme in this family Category:Velutinidae. The "mistake" was made by one of wikiproject gastropods members. It was made neither by a bot nor by a bot operator. We have remedied it and we have taken precautions. The bot is specialized in creating extant (living species) marine gastropod articles, that is only a small part of the project. The bot works systematically according to its operator instructions. Additionally the bot works in cooperation with WoRMS http://www.marinespecies.org/users.php (see Wikipedia listed there). That guarantee also automatic or semi-automatic update in the future, if necessary. Maybe it seems for other wikipedians, that nobody takes care about those generated articles. That would be incorrect prejudice. See for example the history of "List of Conus species" where is exactly written "all species checked". For example last month have one user uploaded ~1000 encyclopedic images and he have added them mostly into those articles started by this bot. This bot is doing exactly the same thing, that would human members of the wikiproject gastropods do. There are no known real issues with this bot. Feel free to formally approve it. Thank you. -- Snek01 ( talk) 13:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support The core of the gastropod team stands by the accuracy of the articles, and so do I. I watched as the first batch was prepared. It was meticulously fact-checked by JoJan and others before the bot generated the stubs. The bot is an asset to the project, and ought to continue. Furthermore, the introductory statement to this page has an objectionable tone of indictment. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 13:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support I find the bot stubs to be very good, certainly as good (or better than) stubs that are created manually by project members or other contributors. We are using the most up to date system of taxonomy. And yes, as Anna says, we reviewed the process very carefully over many weeks before the process was put into effect because we understand the possible dangers of mass bot generation of stubs.This is not our first experience with bot generated stubs, a good number were created back in 2007. Thanks, Invertzoo ( talk) 17:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Oppose Due to the misunderstanding, there are now fifteen thousand stub articles about slugs and snails, largely unchecked, and for which there is frequently no information to be added. The aim of the Wikiproject is to have a similar article for all 100,000 articles in the database. I cannot personally see any reason for this. We should have articles about gastropods that have more information about them, where the article can be fleshed out and more content added. I share the concern about the WorMs database, and do not think that there is any need to reproduce it in Wikipedia. Elen of the Roads ( talk) 18:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support – The bot doesn't do anything else that what we, the members of the project, have been doing manually all these years, The Gastropoda is one of the largest taxonomic classes in the animal world. Without a bot, we're facing an impossible task. The data from WoRMS are very reliable, made by the best experts in the world, You won't find a better expert anywhere to check these data, so who do you want to check those data ? As to the so-called mistake in Velutina, I advise the community to read the disccusion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods#Phalium articles, The integrity of the content generated by the bot is not at stake, but the bot permission is the real issue. This bot has saved the members of this project perhaps thousands and thousands hours of work, generating all those new articles. Once an article exists, it is much easier to add information. I'm in the process of uploading to the Commons about 2,500 photos of shells of sea snails from an internet source with a license suitable for the Commons. This is an enormous job that can't be done by a bot because each name has to be checked if it is not a synonym. I cannot insert these photos into wikipedia, unless there is already an article about a genus or the species in question. Otherwise, this would take me years if I have to create all those articles. For most people consulting wikipedia about gastropods, and certainly for shell collectors, the photo is the most important part of the article, The text is more a matter for experts or knowledgeable amateurs, who understand what a nodose sculpture or a stenoglossan radula represents. JoJan ( talk) 18:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support – As I see it, the bot is not a mere addendum, but a necessity. Taking into account the number of species described, we're dealing with the second most diversified animal phylum, the phylum Mollusca, and it's largest class, the class Gastropoda. There are tens of thousands of extant and fossil gastropod species, and creating each one of those stubs would be an inhuman task... That's why we need a bot. WoRMS is not absolute, but it is one of the most reliable online databases available. I understand that, with proper supervision and due caution, no harm will come out of Ganeshbot. Daniel Cavallari ( talk) 00:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Oppose as currently inplemented. The lack of prior approval and poor communicationskills by bot operator and project will continue to be a problem. The bot operator has now posted a list of 100s of problematic articles, various types of synonyms that should be redirects rather than articles. The project members could have spent time looking for problems and readily found these instead of fighting to protect the bot. It would have established a wikipedia-beneficial future method for dealing with bad bot articles. These articles need fixed now, no bad taxonomic article should sit on Wikipedia while editors know its bad. The bot operator created no plan for fixing these articles. Neither did the wiki project.
In my opinion a bot set up to scour multiple species data bases at the request of a h uman editor could greatly benefit writers of species articles. The hujman editor could verify a dozen species in an hour or two then ask the bot to create just the formatted article with taxonomy box, categories, stub tags. This could save the human editor many hours of tedious work. The bot could get species from algae, molluscs, plants, dinosaurs. It could be multiple bots, even, with a central page for requests. This would be the best of both worlds: more articles, decided by humans, tedium bny bots. JaRoad ( talk) 01:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC) reply
The topic is the bot not me. Taxonomy is not the topic either. Editors make decisions about species validity on wikipedia. My suggestion is that only editors make these decisions. Although my suggestion is a counter proposal to this bot, this bot could make a useful tool as part of this counter proposal. I have not suggested any way to simply verify species names. JaRoad ( talk) 04:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Yes, they do. Wikipedia editors decide that WoRMS is a reliable resource eand its listing of species versus synonyms is going to be used, therefore WoRMS listing of accepted names is a source for valid species. Then if WoRMS is in disagreement with another secondary or tertiary source the editor decides which of the two sources is the correct one for the name of the article and how and why the other source earns a mention as to the controversy rather than being the name for the article. Mollusc editors have already decided that the chosen taxonomists on WoRMS will be the deciders of species names on Wikipedia, hence you have chosen to confer validity on the WoRMSZ set of species names, not all of which are accepted 100% by all mollusc taxonomists. This is done for all controversial species of any type of organism on Wikipedia. Maybe you only create articles about noncontroversial species.
Back to the suggestion I raised. This removes the wholesale stamp of validity on one database and returns it to where it belongs: to the editors creating the articles through secondary and tertiary resources. JaRoad ( talk) 16:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC) reply
To summarize the discussion so far:
Did I miss anything? Anomie ⚔ 16:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
A few opinions:
-- Snek01 ( talk) 00:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Overview from Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Species_bot:
-- Snek01 ( talk) 15:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I would like to thank to all for their comments (including those ones, that have never edited any gastropod-related article and those ones, that have never created any gastropod-related article so they have experience neither with this Bot nor with gastropods). I would summarize the task (to be everybody sure, that it is OK):
|
This describes the real situation how it have been working and how it works.
Everybody can comment any phase of this process anytime. Usual and often possibilities are like this:
Wikiproject Gastropods members will be happy to do it. Put your notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods.
Consider, that this (formal) request for approval deals with phase 1) and phase 2) only. If somebody have comments to phase 3), then feel free to share your opinions at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods. Thanks. -- Snek01 ( talk) 15:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Snek01 - unless you are a BAG editor, you can't close this. Apologies if you are a BAG editor, but the little table on the requests for approval page says that you are not. The instructions are specific that it has to be closed by a BAG editor (and I would have expected one that has not got an interest in running the bot, but it doesn't say that anywhere, so perhaps not expected) Elen of the Roads ( talk) 17:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Apologies to Snek01 if I have misread his post. To be clear, I thought it was a genuine error on his part...but accept it seems to have been a genuine error on mine. Elen of the Roads ( talk) 22:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I have comments, nut cannot post easily on this lonmg post. Of course, I risk an incorrectly spelled word attack tangent, among other tangents, by gastropod project members. And I would like my concerns adressed. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not home to the latest taxonomy of gastropods, but the most robustly accepted taxonomy. This needs adressed more widely: what gastropod members are doing. JaRoad ( talk) 17:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Strong Oppose Looking at the Conus articles, these are all IDENTICAL! I strongly oppose any attempt to automatically create completely identical stub articles. The fact that a species exists does not mean that there needs to be an article on it that has absolutely zero unique information. That is what Wikispecies is for. Create redirects, but not a word is more useful than the genus article. Even the source database has virtually no information on these species. It is absurd to create thousands of articles with two expansion templates on them that will not (or simply cannot) be solved. And at the very least, please don't use quotation marks where they shouldn't be. The Conus species sting, not "sting." Reywas92 Talk 01:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Support - It seems that the concerns have been well thought out by the users proposing this bot and that it would serve a beneficial service. I support its creation. Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 18:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Support &ndash As a Wikiproject Gastropod member I fully support Ganeshbot.
Seascapeza ( talk) 18:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Oppose – The bot would be better off compiling a small number (possibly 1) of list articles than populating the wiki with uninformative stubs that are unlikely to be expanded much in the foreseeable future. See my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of life#The Great Bot Debate. -- Stemonitis ( talk) 05:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Support - If the source database is up-to-date, it is very useful to have the basic framework of the species pages up and running. It ensures the taxonomy is correct, taxoboxes are present, the authority is present and synonyms are added (and also redirected?). It also ensures there is at least one reference. If the project members are confident they can expand the articles, I don't see a problem. They are the ones actually working on these articles, so why would other people frustrate these efforts? Furthermore, there is a lot of debate about bot creation, but what about AWB? See User:Starzynka and his creations. This bot is doing a far better job than the stuff he or she is creating and nobody seems to be bothered with that. All the messed up species and genus pages I have come across are not made by a bot using a reliable source, but by users taking a list of red linked articles and creating pages en-masse using AWB without adding any additional info or even checking if the list they are working from is actually correct. That, in my opinion, is something everyone should oppose. Not this though, because this bot is actually doing good work. Ruigeroeland ( talk) 07:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC) reply
I see three major objections to this task above:
Taking into account the concerns expressed above, I propose the following:
This is basically what is proposed by GaneshK and WikiProject Gastropods, with the rate of creation automatically limited to match the project's review capacity. The identification of articles awaiting review can be done by listing them on a WikiProject subpage with editors removing articles from the list as they are reviewed, or by applying a template and/or hidden category to the articles that editors will remove as the article is reviewed. If the latter, I would also approve the bot to run through the 15000 articles already created (and only those articles) to append the template/category to any article that has not been edited by one of the WikiProject Gastropods reviewers since creation.
I am inclined to approve the bot under these terms if it seems generally acceptable. Comments? Anomie ⚔ 18:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
The question would seem to come back to - do we want 100,000 one line + taxobox articles created automatically all in one go.-- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 22:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I see my attempt has failed. I'll leave it to another BAGger to figure out consensus here. Anomie ⚔ 11:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC) reply
{{ BAGAssistanceNeeded}} User:Anomie has been "inclined to approve the bot under [his own] terms". Do not create your own terms. Terms are already created and they are called wikipedia policies. Also User:Anomie is welcomed, because he is familiar with the theme. -- Snek01 ( talk) 13:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC) reply
One of the issues here is about the need and notability of simple stubs. So, I posted here. If consensus can be reached on that matter, we can focus on the remaining issues. I hope this helps. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 05:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Hi Elen: As I have just
expressed to Invertzoo, I am becoming increasingly concerned with the potential maintenance of bot-created gastropod articles. This seems to be a group in such flux, that it might be unrealistic to expect that we could keep up with the changes in taxonomy.
I am a strong supporter of bot-created stubs that contain only rudimentary information. I think that this is in keeping with the idea of Wikipedia. However, this might be appropriate only for taxonomically stable groups, but not for gastropods. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 12:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
It might be wise to separate the matter into three distinct parts:
Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 22:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Another issue, there is a comment by Invertzoo at Wikiproject Gastropods talk page about less than ideal choices made for the bot articles, "If a few of them have things that some people argue are less than ideal, these are human choices, and were not due to the bot; plus these supposedly less than idea things are a matter of opinion, not of fact."
I would like to know what human choices were made that contributed to "less than ideal" results in the bot articles. If there are "less than ideal" choices being made, will they continue to be made, will every comment by someone outside of Project Gastropod be dismissed as a "matter of opinion," and what, if anything, is Wikiproject Gastropod doing about this to allow all interested members of the community to weigh in? Where are these choices being made? Where were comments made about these "less than ideal" choices?
Again, completely ignored multiple times, up-to-the-minute taxonomy is not encyclopedic, as it arises in the primary literature, not an appropriate source for an encyclopedia. Are the bot and the project members using primary research from WoRMS to create these articles? If this is the case, I request the stubs be deleted. -- JaRoad ( talk) 17:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC) reply
This was a reply to JaRoad's message before this last one, but it got caught in an edit conflict:
Here are the points Project Gastropods would like to make:
Points explaining why it is so important and valuable to us (and to Wikipedia) to have a full set of stubs to cover the whole class of gastropods:
Additional commentary:
Extant marine gastropods | done by Ganeshbot | to be done from WoRMS |
---|---|---|
number of families | 132 | 137 |
number of articles/species | 15.000 articles (species + genera) | my guess is about 3.000-5.000 species, but it is certainly less than 10.000 articles |
Thank you all for your patience.
Invertzoo (
talk) 13:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
reply
We have answered all of these points at least once before, sometimes in great detail. Thank you. Can I ask you to please let everyone know what the IP address was that you edited under, quoting from your current user page (
User:JaRoad) "for about 5 years", before you registered as JaRoad only 5 weeks ago? All of our histories are completely open and available for anyone to peruse, as is that of our Project; your history on the other hand is a mystery. For someone who makes such sweeping demands for deletion of articles, it would be good to be able to view your history on Wikipedia. If you have nothing to hide, I cannot imagine any reason why you would want to withhold that key piece of information. Thank you for your cooperation,
Invertzoo (
talk) 21:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
reply
I must also agree with Invertzoo in that we have answered your questions, and agree with Elen of the Roads that demanding JaRoad out himself is inappropriate.
JaRoad: This is an excerpt from some of the text I added and you removed from your talk page. It is relevant here. (You have every right to remove text from your talk. I only wish we had the right to remove offensive text that attacks contributors from your user page.):
I see that you have a strong point of view. Perhaps a more constructive approach would be to neutrally ask other editors what they think, and achieve consensus, and also to gather information before rendering a POV. You arrived with a POV, and do not have a monopoly on the truth. I, as a member of the gastropod project, neutrally made inquires and asked sensible questions in order to make up my mind. (I was even against the bot during my investigation.)
We have made an all-out effort to respond to your concerns. You, however, (rather single-handedly), have pushed your point of view on such matters as the credibility of WoRMS, the worth of species stubs, the accuracy of the bot's work, and the ability for the project to maintain such stubs. You have yielded or compromised on none of your initial points.
A little research, and a few queries would have saved us a lot of time, considering that we have since shown those points of view to be, not only inaccurate, but also largely in disagreement with the opinions of the community.
So, to expedite this matter, please respond to the answers we have provided, point by point, telling us whether you accept or reject them, and why. We all want to get back to contributing to the project. Thank you. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 09:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Invertzoo has a good point here. This is not outing. I have been stung by trolls before and this fits the pattern exactly. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but it's so hard to tell the difference. Knowing his history on Wikipedia would help a great deal. I am curious as to why JaRoad has been silent on this. Why not be forthcoming? It would favour him and give him credibility.
It's hard to take his statements at face value considering his pre-judgement, his tendentious posts, and the statement on his user page. He didn't arrive asking questions. He came with a POV and has stuck to that regardless of new information.
As for the bot being approved, I suggest:
Elen, how does this sound to you? You must see how dedicated we are to improving the gastropod project. It is our aim and interest to improve the project, not just to blindly make stubs and walk away. We will fill them with images and content over the years, as will others. Isn't this exactly what Wikipedia is about? Are there specific conditions you would like to see met in order to lettuce :) make these new stubs? Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 18:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC) reply
I'm not the one with the extreme position, that would probably be the editor who disagrees with the value of species stubs. I've not only changed my position slightly, I indicated that change by posting comments and questions and by clarifying specifically that wikipedia has already established that species stubs are considered valuable articles. I suggested the bot make the articles from proposed lists. This was ignored. I asked questions. They were ignored. I offered help, this was insulted and belittled. I changed my position, I read others' posts, I was called a troll and hounded personally in response. How professional of project gastropod. Can't disagree with or address my points? Attack me. Hound me.
I think that project gastropod's unwillingness to compromise and their attacking those who disagree with plans means this bot will be trouble. Any one who raises issues will be insulted for their spelling, called a troll, hounded by Invertzoo. You want unlimited chaos? That could be obtained by giving this bot unlimited approval to create stubs with no community oversight except by project gastropod members.
People have already expressed disagreement about other bots creating species stubs. The issue is sensitive. It requires editors with diplomacy to be able to deal with sensitive issues. Floundering until you settle on demanding someone out themself, calling them a troll, and insulting their English does not speak of the sort of diplomacy and consideration for working with community consensus that should come with a bot with unlimited approval to create stubs. -- JaRoad ( talk) 05:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC) reply
This debate has reached no consensus, and as such the bot approval is defaulting to Denied.. There are many reasons for closing this as no consensus, and I’ll explain why I’ve judged that to be the result below.
Firstly some background may be useful to editors not familiar with this, for future reference. I hope this brief summary will be useful for others, and me to help collect my thoughts. This bot was originally approved to create no more than 600 pages, for the Gastropod WikiProject. A number of concerns were raised even then, and the bot was approved only after a lot of discussion, and with a limit on the speed at which it could create articles. This limit on the speed was later removed. However, following this the bot started creating thousands upon thousands of pages (~15,000), many more than the approved number. The bot was shut down, as it was no longer doing approved edits, as I, and a number of other editors, pointed out. It was decided that to continue editing, the bot would need to be approved via BRfA, and I said that to be approved, it would need community consensus first. The BRfA was submitted, and various discussions with the community took place following this.
Now my comments on actually closing this. Firstly, some of the conduct at this BRfA has been exceedingly poor, with personal attacks, and a lack of willingness to work with others. This is true for both some of the supporters and opposition. I believe this has contributed to a battleground mentality, where rather than trying to work together, users feel this is a win or lose situation. Also contributing to this, is the absence of compromise: the supporters do not appear to want any limits on this bot, or to accept anything other than having the bot approved fully, as they proposed it. This is also true for some of the opposition, who will apparently accept nothing less than having the bot shutdown completely. However, because the supporters are the ones proposing this, they need to work in cooperation with the community, to reach a proposal which suits everybody (reasonably). Because this has not been done, there is no consensus reached.
Commenting on the task itself, there seems to be mixed feelings from the community on bot created stubs. Some are opposed to it, partly due to previous bad results from such tasks, as well as the nature of this WikiProject. Since it is a relatively small project on a niche topic, there are understandable concerns that the project will struggle to maintain 25,000 articles. The project’s arguments that they can maintain this number of articles are unconvincing, since they are speaking about having, in the past, maintained very few articles over a very large period of time. Which does not prove that they can “keep on top” of 25,000 articles. Judging by discussions in forums other than this one however, there does seem to be some large community support for bot generated stubs in general. However, few of the comments by users at those forums seem relevant to this particular bot task.
How to move forward
If the project still wishes to move forward with this bot, I would suggest forming a consensus before submitting another BRfA. Using a request for comment or other appropriate venue, as BRfA isn’t particularly suited to building consensus. There has been some suggestion of running this task even without approval, and I would strongly recommend that this is not done. Using automated, or even semi-automated (such as AWB) methods for content creation require approval from BAG, which you do not currently have. Fully manual creation of these pages is, of course, permitted. But I would suggest that rather than doing this, the project works on keeping the pages it currently has up to date, to help convince others that you are capable of maintain these articles, rather than simply creating more pages which there is no evidence that you are maintaining. In future discussions I would remind everybody to stay cool, to listen to each other’s arguments, and to compromise. It is the lack of compromise and cooperation that has led to a lack of consensus, and, subsequently, this being closed as no consensus -
Kingpin
13 (
talk) 08:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
reply
Operator: Ganeshk ( talk · contribs)
Automatic or Manually assisted: Automatic
Programming language(s): AutoWikiBrowser and CSVLoader
Source code available: Yes, available at WP:CSV and WP:WRMS
Function overview: To create gastropod species and genera articles based on data downloaded from the WoRMS database. The bot will run under the supervision of the Gastropods project.
Links to relevant discussions (where appropriate):
Edit period(s): Weekly
Estimated number of pages affected: 500 per week
Exclusion compliant (Y/N): N/A
Already has a bot flag (Y/N): Y
Function details: The bot will create species and genera articles under the supervision of WikiProject Gastropods. Here are the steps:
There are about 10,000 species articles (approx.) that are yet to be created.
Note: This bot has been approved to create a smaller set of similar stubs in March, 2010. This request is for getting an approval for all new families approved by Gastropods project.
Note: For anyone new to the discussion, in Ganeshbot 4 (later amended at Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group/Archive 7#Wrong way of the close a BRFA) this bot was approved to create about 580 stubs for the genus Conus. Despite stating that "about 580 stubs will be created (nothing more)", [1] Ganeshk was somehow under the impression that further approval was not required to create additional articles. When this was brought to the community's attention at various places, including WT:Bots/Requests for approval#Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Ganeshbot 4, Ganeshk stopped creating the articles without approval. Anomie ⚔ 02:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Needs wider discussion. I see you already informed WikiProject Gastropods. Please advertise this request at WP:VPR to solicit input from the wider community. Anomie ⚔ 02:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
How many articles can the gastgropod project check with just a few active members? The bot created about 100 stubs a day for the past few months for a total of 15000 stubs? Have these 15000 stubs been checked? I checked a few and found concerns. I volunteered to point out problems if I could speak directly to the gastropod family experts, but I was insulted by a gastropod member for my poor spelling, repeatedly insulted. I think the inability to work with other members of the community and the unwillingness to accept criticism and the tendency to focus on personal insults over taxonomic issues spell disaster for this bot. The bot is either continuing to run or is being operated as an account assistant by its operator, this also makes it hard to know what the bot is doing. The operator will have to have all rules of bot operation explicity outlined, as he took his own statement of "580 articles (nothing more)" to mean 15000 articles. What other bot rules will be misinterpreted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaRoad ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I am also concerned that gastropod members are using what they consider a "somewhat reliable" resource that is evolving through time like Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia articles. Writers are expected to use reliable, stable, and non-primary sources, not "somewhat reliable" sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaRoad ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support As I have written previously there is unified support of this by Wikiproject gastropods members. The bot is running since March 2010 without any problems. I would like to thank to User:JaRoad, who have found a "mistake" affecting 6 articles (or maximally up to additional 10 articles, and some thinks that it even was not an mistake) in highly specialized theme in this family Category:Velutinidae. The "mistake" was made by one of wikiproject gastropods members. It was made neither by a bot nor by a bot operator. We have remedied it and we have taken precautions. The bot is specialized in creating extant (living species) marine gastropod articles, that is only a small part of the project. The bot works systematically according to its operator instructions. Additionally the bot works in cooperation with WoRMS http://www.marinespecies.org/users.php (see Wikipedia listed there). That guarantee also automatic or semi-automatic update in the future, if necessary. Maybe it seems for other wikipedians, that nobody takes care about those generated articles. That would be incorrect prejudice. See for example the history of "List of Conus species" where is exactly written "all species checked". For example last month have one user uploaded ~1000 encyclopedic images and he have added them mostly into those articles started by this bot. This bot is doing exactly the same thing, that would human members of the wikiproject gastropods do. There are no known real issues with this bot. Feel free to formally approve it. Thank you. -- Snek01 ( talk) 13:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support The core of the gastropod team stands by the accuracy of the articles, and so do I. I watched as the first batch was prepared. It was meticulously fact-checked by JoJan and others before the bot generated the stubs. The bot is an asset to the project, and ought to continue. Furthermore, the introductory statement to this page has an objectionable tone of indictment. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 13:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support I find the bot stubs to be very good, certainly as good (or better than) stubs that are created manually by project members or other contributors. We are using the most up to date system of taxonomy. And yes, as Anna says, we reviewed the process very carefully over many weeks before the process was put into effect because we understand the possible dangers of mass bot generation of stubs.This is not our first experience with bot generated stubs, a good number were created back in 2007. Thanks, Invertzoo ( talk) 17:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Oppose Due to the misunderstanding, there are now fifteen thousand stub articles about slugs and snails, largely unchecked, and for which there is frequently no information to be added. The aim of the Wikiproject is to have a similar article for all 100,000 articles in the database. I cannot personally see any reason for this. We should have articles about gastropods that have more information about them, where the article can be fleshed out and more content added. I share the concern about the WorMs database, and do not think that there is any need to reproduce it in Wikipedia. Elen of the Roads ( talk) 18:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support – The bot doesn't do anything else that what we, the members of the project, have been doing manually all these years, The Gastropoda is one of the largest taxonomic classes in the animal world. Without a bot, we're facing an impossible task. The data from WoRMS are very reliable, made by the best experts in the world, You won't find a better expert anywhere to check these data, so who do you want to check those data ? As to the so-called mistake in Velutina, I advise the community to read the disccusion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods#Phalium articles, The integrity of the content generated by the bot is not at stake, but the bot permission is the real issue. This bot has saved the members of this project perhaps thousands and thousands hours of work, generating all those new articles. Once an article exists, it is much easier to add information. I'm in the process of uploading to the Commons about 2,500 photos of shells of sea snails from an internet source with a license suitable for the Commons. This is an enormous job that can't be done by a bot because each name has to be checked if it is not a synonym. I cannot insert these photos into wikipedia, unless there is already an article about a genus or the species in question. Otherwise, this would take me years if I have to create all those articles. For most people consulting wikipedia about gastropods, and certainly for shell collectors, the photo is the most important part of the article, The text is more a matter for experts or knowledgeable amateurs, who understand what a nodose sculpture or a stenoglossan radula represents. JoJan ( talk) 18:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Support – As I see it, the bot is not a mere addendum, but a necessity. Taking into account the number of species described, we're dealing with the second most diversified animal phylum, the phylum Mollusca, and it's largest class, the class Gastropoda. There are tens of thousands of extant and fossil gastropod species, and creating each one of those stubs would be an inhuman task... That's why we need a bot. WoRMS is not absolute, but it is one of the most reliable online databases available. I understand that, with proper supervision and due caution, no harm will come out of Ganeshbot. Daniel Cavallari ( talk) 00:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Oppose as currently inplemented. The lack of prior approval and poor communicationskills by bot operator and project will continue to be a problem. The bot operator has now posted a list of 100s of problematic articles, various types of synonyms that should be redirects rather than articles. The project members could have spent time looking for problems and readily found these instead of fighting to protect the bot. It would have established a wikipedia-beneficial future method for dealing with bad bot articles. These articles need fixed now, no bad taxonomic article should sit on Wikipedia while editors know its bad. The bot operator created no plan for fixing these articles. Neither did the wiki project.
In my opinion a bot set up to scour multiple species data bases at the request of a h uman editor could greatly benefit writers of species articles. The hujman editor could verify a dozen species in an hour or two then ask the bot to create just the formatted article with taxonomy box, categories, stub tags. This could save the human editor many hours of tedious work. The bot could get species from algae, molluscs, plants, dinosaurs. It could be multiple bots, even, with a central page for requests. This would be the best of both worlds: more articles, decided by humans, tedium bny bots. JaRoad ( talk) 01:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC) reply
The topic is the bot not me. Taxonomy is not the topic either. Editors make decisions about species validity on wikipedia. My suggestion is that only editors make these decisions. Although my suggestion is a counter proposal to this bot, this bot could make a useful tool as part of this counter proposal. I have not suggested any way to simply verify species names. JaRoad ( talk) 04:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Yes, they do. Wikipedia editors decide that WoRMS is a reliable resource eand its listing of species versus synonyms is going to be used, therefore WoRMS listing of accepted names is a source for valid species. Then if WoRMS is in disagreement with another secondary or tertiary source the editor decides which of the two sources is the correct one for the name of the article and how and why the other source earns a mention as to the controversy rather than being the name for the article. Mollusc editors have already decided that the chosen taxonomists on WoRMS will be the deciders of species names on Wikipedia, hence you have chosen to confer validity on the WoRMSZ set of species names, not all of which are accepted 100% by all mollusc taxonomists. This is done for all controversial species of any type of organism on Wikipedia. Maybe you only create articles about noncontroversial species.
Back to the suggestion I raised. This removes the wholesale stamp of validity on one database and returns it to where it belongs: to the editors creating the articles through secondary and tertiary resources. JaRoad ( talk) 16:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC) reply
To summarize the discussion so far:
Did I miss anything? Anomie ⚔ 16:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC) reply
A few opinions:
-- Snek01 ( talk) 00:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Overview from Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Species_bot:
-- Snek01 ( talk) 15:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I would like to thank to all for their comments (including those ones, that have never edited any gastropod-related article and those ones, that have never created any gastropod-related article so they have experience neither with this Bot nor with gastropods). I would summarize the task (to be everybody sure, that it is OK):
|
This describes the real situation how it have been working and how it works.
Everybody can comment any phase of this process anytime. Usual and often possibilities are like this:
Wikiproject Gastropods members will be happy to do it. Put your notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods.
Consider, that this (formal) request for approval deals with phase 1) and phase 2) only. If somebody have comments to phase 3), then feel free to share your opinions at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gastropods. Thanks. -- Snek01 ( talk) 15:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Snek01 - unless you are a BAG editor, you can't close this. Apologies if you are a BAG editor, but the little table on the requests for approval page says that you are not. The instructions are specific that it has to be closed by a BAG editor (and I would have expected one that has not got an interest in running the bot, but it doesn't say that anywhere, so perhaps not expected) Elen of the Roads ( talk) 17:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Apologies to Snek01 if I have misread his post. To be clear, I thought it was a genuine error on his part...but accept it seems to have been a genuine error on mine. Elen of the Roads ( talk) 22:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I have comments, nut cannot post easily on this lonmg post. Of course, I risk an incorrectly spelled word attack tangent, among other tangents, by gastropod project members. And I would like my concerns adressed. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not home to the latest taxonomy of gastropods, but the most robustly accepted taxonomy. This needs adressed more widely: what gastropod members are doing. JaRoad ( talk) 17:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
Strong Oppose Looking at the Conus articles, these are all IDENTICAL! I strongly oppose any attempt to automatically create completely identical stub articles. The fact that a species exists does not mean that there needs to be an article on it that has absolutely zero unique information. That is what Wikispecies is for. Create redirects, but not a word is more useful than the genus article. Even the source database has virtually no information on these species. It is absurd to create thousands of articles with two expansion templates on them that will not (or simply cannot) be solved. And at the very least, please don't use quotation marks where they shouldn't be. The Conus species sting, not "sting." Reywas92 Talk 01:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Support - It seems that the concerns have been well thought out by the users proposing this bot and that it would serve a beneficial service. I support its creation. Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 18:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Support &ndash As a Wikiproject Gastropod member I fully support Ganeshbot.
Seascapeza ( talk) 18:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Oppose – The bot would be better off compiling a small number (possibly 1) of list articles than populating the wiki with uninformative stubs that are unlikely to be expanded much in the foreseeable future. See my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of life#The Great Bot Debate. -- Stemonitis ( talk) 05:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Support - If the source database is up-to-date, it is very useful to have the basic framework of the species pages up and running. It ensures the taxonomy is correct, taxoboxes are present, the authority is present and synonyms are added (and also redirected?). It also ensures there is at least one reference. If the project members are confident they can expand the articles, I don't see a problem. They are the ones actually working on these articles, so why would other people frustrate these efforts? Furthermore, there is a lot of debate about bot creation, but what about AWB? See User:Starzynka and his creations. This bot is doing a far better job than the stuff he or she is creating and nobody seems to be bothered with that. All the messed up species and genus pages I have come across are not made by a bot using a reliable source, but by users taking a list of red linked articles and creating pages en-masse using AWB without adding any additional info or even checking if the list they are working from is actually correct. That, in my opinion, is something everyone should oppose. Not this though, because this bot is actually doing good work. Ruigeroeland ( talk) 07:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC) reply
I see three major objections to this task above:
Taking into account the concerns expressed above, I propose the following:
This is basically what is proposed by GaneshK and WikiProject Gastropods, with the rate of creation automatically limited to match the project's review capacity. The identification of articles awaiting review can be done by listing them on a WikiProject subpage with editors removing articles from the list as they are reviewed, or by applying a template and/or hidden category to the articles that editors will remove as the article is reviewed. If the latter, I would also approve the bot to run through the 15000 articles already created (and only those articles) to append the template/category to any article that has not been edited by one of the WikiProject Gastropods reviewers since creation.
I am inclined to approve the bot under these terms if it seems generally acceptable. Comments? Anomie ⚔ 18:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
The question would seem to come back to - do we want 100,000 one line + taxobox articles created automatically all in one go.-- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 22:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC) reply
I see my attempt has failed. I'll leave it to another BAGger to figure out consensus here. Anomie ⚔ 11:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC) reply
{{ BAGAssistanceNeeded}} User:Anomie has been "inclined to approve the bot under [his own] terms". Do not create your own terms. Terms are already created and they are called wikipedia policies. Also User:Anomie is welcomed, because he is familiar with the theme. -- Snek01 ( talk) 13:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC) reply
One of the issues here is about the need and notability of simple stubs. So, I posted here. If consensus can be reached on that matter, we can focus on the remaining issues. I hope this helps. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 05:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Hi Elen: As I have just
expressed to Invertzoo, I am becoming increasingly concerned with the potential maintenance of bot-created gastropod articles. This seems to be a group in such flux, that it might be unrealistic to expect that we could keep up with the changes in taxonomy.
I am a strong supporter of bot-created stubs that contain only rudimentary information. I think that this is in keeping with the idea of Wikipedia. However, this might be appropriate only for taxonomically stable groups, but not for gastropods. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 12:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
It might be wise to separate the matter into three distinct parts:
Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 22:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Another issue, there is a comment by Invertzoo at Wikiproject Gastropods talk page about less than ideal choices made for the bot articles, "If a few of them have things that some people argue are less than ideal, these are human choices, and were not due to the bot; plus these supposedly less than idea things are a matter of opinion, not of fact."
I would like to know what human choices were made that contributed to "less than ideal" results in the bot articles. If there are "less than ideal" choices being made, will they continue to be made, will every comment by someone outside of Project Gastropod be dismissed as a "matter of opinion," and what, if anything, is Wikiproject Gastropod doing about this to allow all interested members of the community to weigh in? Where are these choices being made? Where were comments made about these "less than ideal" choices?
Again, completely ignored multiple times, up-to-the-minute taxonomy is not encyclopedic, as it arises in the primary literature, not an appropriate source for an encyclopedia. Are the bot and the project members using primary research from WoRMS to create these articles? If this is the case, I request the stubs be deleted. -- JaRoad ( talk) 17:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC) reply
This was a reply to JaRoad's message before this last one, but it got caught in an edit conflict:
Here are the points Project Gastropods would like to make:
Points explaining why it is so important and valuable to us (and to Wikipedia) to have a full set of stubs to cover the whole class of gastropods:
Additional commentary:
Extant marine gastropods | done by Ganeshbot | to be done from WoRMS |
---|---|---|
number of families | 132 | 137 |
number of articles/species | 15.000 articles (species + genera) | my guess is about 3.000-5.000 species, but it is certainly less than 10.000 articles |
Thank you all for your patience.
Invertzoo (
talk) 13:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
reply
We have answered all of these points at least once before, sometimes in great detail. Thank you. Can I ask you to please let everyone know what the IP address was that you edited under, quoting from your current user page (
User:JaRoad) "for about 5 years", before you registered as JaRoad only 5 weeks ago? All of our histories are completely open and available for anyone to peruse, as is that of our Project; your history on the other hand is a mystery. For someone who makes such sweeping demands for deletion of articles, it would be good to be able to view your history on Wikipedia. If you have nothing to hide, I cannot imagine any reason why you would want to withhold that key piece of information. Thank you for your cooperation,
Invertzoo (
talk) 21:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
reply
I must also agree with Invertzoo in that we have answered your questions, and agree with Elen of the Roads that demanding JaRoad out himself is inappropriate.
JaRoad: This is an excerpt from some of the text I added and you removed from your talk page. It is relevant here. (You have every right to remove text from your talk. I only wish we had the right to remove offensive text that attacks contributors from your user page.):
I see that you have a strong point of view. Perhaps a more constructive approach would be to neutrally ask other editors what they think, and achieve consensus, and also to gather information before rendering a POV. You arrived with a POV, and do not have a monopoly on the truth. I, as a member of the gastropod project, neutrally made inquires and asked sensible questions in order to make up my mind. (I was even against the bot during my investigation.)
We have made an all-out effort to respond to your concerns. You, however, (rather single-handedly), have pushed your point of view on such matters as the credibility of WoRMS, the worth of species stubs, the accuracy of the bot's work, and the ability for the project to maintain such stubs. You have yielded or compromised on none of your initial points.
A little research, and a few queries would have saved us a lot of time, considering that we have since shown those points of view to be, not only inaccurate, but also largely in disagreement with the opinions of the community.
So, to expedite this matter, please respond to the answers we have provided, point by point, telling us whether you accept or reject them, and why. We all want to get back to contributing to the project. Thank you. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 09:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC) reply
Invertzoo has a good point here. This is not outing. I have been stung by trolls before and this fits the pattern exactly. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but it's so hard to tell the difference. Knowing his history on Wikipedia would help a great deal. I am curious as to why JaRoad has been silent on this. Why not be forthcoming? It would favour him and give him credibility.
It's hard to take his statements at face value considering his pre-judgement, his tendentious posts, and the statement on his user page. He didn't arrive asking questions. He came with a POV and has stuck to that regardless of new information.
As for the bot being approved, I suggest:
Elen, how does this sound to you? You must see how dedicated we are to improving the gastropod project. It is our aim and interest to improve the project, not just to blindly make stubs and walk away. We will fill them with images and content over the years, as will others. Isn't this exactly what Wikipedia is about? Are there specific conditions you would like to see met in order to lettuce :) make these new stubs? Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 18:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC) reply
I'm not the one with the extreme position, that would probably be the editor who disagrees with the value of species stubs. I've not only changed my position slightly, I indicated that change by posting comments and questions and by clarifying specifically that wikipedia has already established that species stubs are considered valuable articles. I suggested the bot make the articles from proposed lists. This was ignored. I asked questions. They were ignored. I offered help, this was insulted and belittled. I changed my position, I read others' posts, I was called a troll and hounded personally in response. How professional of project gastropod. Can't disagree with or address my points? Attack me. Hound me.
I think that project gastropod's unwillingness to compromise and their attacking those who disagree with plans means this bot will be trouble. Any one who raises issues will be insulted for their spelling, called a troll, hounded by Invertzoo. You want unlimited chaos? That could be obtained by giving this bot unlimited approval to create stubs with no community oversight except by project gastropod members.
People have already expressed disagreement about other bots creating species stubs. The issue is sensitive. It requires editors with diplomacy to be able to deal with sensitive issues. Floundering until you settle on demanding someone out themself, calling them a troll, and insulting their English does not speak of the sort of diplomacy and consideration for working with community consensus that should come with a bot with unlimited approval to create stubs. -- JaRoad ( talk) 05:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC) reply
This debate has reached no consensus, and as such the bot approval is defaulting to Denied.. There are many reasons for closing this as no consensus, and I’ll explain why I’ve judged that to be the result below.
Firstly some background may be useful to editors not familiar with this, for future reference. I hope this brief summary will be useful for others, and me to help collect my thoughts. This bot was originally approved to create no more than 600 pages, for the Gastropod WikiProject. A number of concerns were raised even then, and the bot was approved only after a lot of discussion, and with a limit on the speed at which it could create articles. This limit on the speed was later removed. However, following this the bot started creating thousands upon thousands of pages (~15,000), many more than the approved number. The bot was shut down, as it was no longer doing approved edits, as I, and a number of other editors, pointed out. It was decided that to continue editing, the bot would need to be approved via BRfA, and I said that to be approved, it would need community consensus first. The BRfA was submitted, and various discussions with the community took place following this.
Now my comments on actually closing this. Firstly, some of the conduct at this BRfA has been exceedingly poor, with personal attacks, and a lack of willingness to work with others. This is true for both some of the supporters and opposition. I believe this has contributed to a battleground mentality, where rather than trying to work together, users feel this is a win or lose situation. Also contributing to this, is the absence of compromise: the supporters do not appear to want any limits on this bot, or to accept anything other than having the bot approved fully, as they proposed it. This is also true for some of the opposition, who will apparently accept nothing less than having the bot shutdown completely. However, because the supporters are the ones proposing this, they need to work in cooperation with the community, to reach a proposal which suits everybody (reasonably). Because this has not been done, there is no consensus reached.
Commenting on the task itself, there seems to be mixed feelings from the community on bot created stubs. Some are opposed to it, partly due to previous bad results from such tasks, as well as the nature of this WikiProject. Since it is a relatively small project on a niche topic, there are understandable concerns that the project will struggle to maintain 25,000 articles. The project’s arguments that they can maintain this number of articles are unconvincing, since they are speaking about having, in the past, maintained very few articles over a very large period of time. Which does not prove that they can “keep on top” of 25,000 articles. Judging by discussions in forums other than this one however, there does seem to be some large community support for bot generated stubs in general. However, few of the comments by users at those forums seem relevant to this particular bot task.
How to move forward
If the project still wishes to move forward with this bot, I would suggest forming a consensus before submitting another BRfA. Using a request for comment or other appropriate venue, as BRfA isn’t particularly suited to building consensus. There has been some suggestion of running this task even without approval, and I would strongly recommend that this is not done. Using automated, or even semi-automated (such as AWB) methods for content creation require approval from BAG, which you do not currently have. Fully manual creation of these pages is, of course, permitted. But I would suggest that rather than doing this, the project works on keeping the pages it currently has up to date, to help convince others that you are capable of maintain these articles, rather than simply creating more pages which there is no evidence that you are maintaining. In future discussions I would remind everybody to stay cool, to listen to each other’s arguments, and to compromise. It is the lack of compromise and cooperation that has led to a lack of consensus, and, subsequently, this being closed as no consensus -
Kingpin
13 (
talk) 08:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
reply