- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. North America 1000 10:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Yamaha OPL
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Yamaha OPL ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:GNG — does not appear to have received significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. The article appears to comprise large amounts of original research, most of which is of interest only to a niche audience rather than a general readership. The few existing citations comprise unreliable sources such as YouTube videos, GitHub, Google documents and random PDFs.
Popcornfud ( talk) 15:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music and Technology. Popcornfud ( talk) 15:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: No sourcing down to this level of granularity found. could be some OR. Sourcing used in the article isn't helpful for RS. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to
List of Yamaha products per nom. Man, synth-heads have published a lot of cruft over the years.
Mach61 (
talk)
17:53, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Tell me about it. It's an area that doesn't get a lot of attention from editors and sometimes it's difficult to get consensus to remove things even when it's unsourced or unlikely to ever be sourced. Popcornfud ( talk) 18:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: we already have articles for
Yamaha YMF7xx,
Yamaha YM2413,
Yamaha Y8950 and
Yamaha YMF278, all of which belong to this family. That's not a reason to keep this--or any--article, of course. But seeing as this article is better written than any of the individual device ones, wouldn't it make more sense to merge the device pages into this article, assuming we can find sourcing for any of them? While I'm no synth-head myself,
Bluefoxicy and others have done some great work collecting information on what I see as a potentially encyclopedic topic that would be a good merge target for a handful of pages that are likely not sustainable as a standalone article. Would it make sense to Draftify while those familiar with the subject work on merging and sourcing? This may be a bigger project than a single AfD can handle. I'd appreciate feedback from those more familiar with this topic.
Owen×
☎
15:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Draftification cannot overcome a lack of notability.
Mach61 (
talk)
21:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. My suggestion was based on the assumption that sources establishing notability can be found at least for some of the devices in this family, allowing for the merged article to meet NPRODUCT. Owen× ☎ 22:05, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Draftification cannot overcome a lack of notability.
Mach61 (
talk)
21:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: I can't really speak too much as to notability as per Wikipedia standards (I have pretty much no idea what I'm doing here...) but I do feel I should at least point out that two parts in this series - the YM3812/OPL2 and YMF262/OPL3 - were some of the most popular sound chips in personal computers in the early-to-mid 1990s. The article already mentions a sentence or two about that but I'm not sure it gets across just how popular these parts were. I'd (on a personal level, not as a comment related to policy) be sad to see what I consider to be a quite useful article on some formerly very popular products go away.
2604:2D80:C805:0:12A:7E6B:41A1:3C00 (
talk)
01:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- There's definitely useful and interesting stuff in the article — but it's the kind of thing that should be documented on a different wiki or personal blog, not Wikipedia.
Popcornfud (
talk)
01:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose the ideal(?) case would probably be having the article expanded on to more resemble something like
MOS Technology 6581, which I'll certainly agree it currently doesn't. Is this something you see as a valid route, if someone (or a few people) were to put in the effort to do so? (note: I am the same user as the one ending in :41A1:3C00, my IP address just changed... I should create an account sometime)
173.29.158.71 (
talk)
17:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think that's a great idea. As I said, I'm not familiar enough with the subject to be of much use on the authoring side, but if you need a helping hand on the administrative side, don't hesitate to give me a shout. And yes, please create an account. Justifiably or not, more weight is given to the opinions and edits of registered users. Owen× ☎ 17:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose the ideal(?) case would probably be having the article expanded on to more resemble something like
MOS Technology 6581, which I'll certainly agree it currently doesn't. Is this something you see as a valid route, if someone (or a few people) were to put in the effort to do so? (note: I am the same user as the one ending in :41A1:3C00, my IP address just changed... I should create an account sometime)
173.29.158.71 (
talk)
17:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- There's definitely useful and interesting stuff in the article — but it's the kind of thing that should be documented on a different wiki or personal blog, not Wikipedia.
Popcornfud (
talk)
01:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 04:03, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 04:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep or Draftify. A cursory search reveals sources with significant coverage of at least OPL2 and OPL3 such as https://archive.org/details/makingnoisecreat0000lein/page/38/mode/2up?q=YM3812 and https://archive.org/details/ultimatemultimed00jess/page/n457/mode/2up?q=YM3812. Some discuss waveforms and peculiar sound they produce: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Game_Engine_Black_Book_Wolfenstein_3D/hel6DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=YM3812&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover. I believe these are sufficient to either improve the article on its own merits, cleaning up specialist detail, or develop it further into a broader article about Yamaha FM synthesiser chips as proposed by OwenX. PaulT2022 ( talk) 07:41, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: Yamaha OPL 2 & 3 are absolute staples of Retro DOS Gaming. They have been included in most vintage sound cards like AdLib or Sound Blaster either as genuine Yamaha chips or as emulation. OPL 2/3 sound was a standard in early 1990s PC games. Search YouTube for "OPL", and you'll find lots of videos about OPL2 & 3. OPL 3 is still emulated to this very day in emulators like DOSBox. OPL 2 & 3 are discussed extensively in articles and videos about sound cards. Variants of the OPL chip family were also included in several vintage Yamaha keyboards (most are already listed in the article), which have their collectors, too. The aforementioned articles about specific chips other than the OPL 2 (YM3812) and 3 (YMF262), i.e. YMF7xx, YM2413, Y8950 & YMF278, should be merged into this one IMHO. Mottenkiste ( talk) 17:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. North America 1000 10:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Yamaha OPL
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Yamaha OPL ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:GNG — does not appear to have received significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. The article appears to comprise large amounts of original research, most of which is of interest only to a niche audience rather than a general readership. The few existing citations comprise unreliable sources such as YouTube videos, GitHub, Google documents and random PDFs.
Popcornfud ( talk) 15:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music and Technology. Popcornfud ( talk) 15:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: No sourcing down to this level of granularity found. could be some OR. Sourcing used in the article isn't helpful for RS. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to
List of Yamaha products per nom. Man, synth-heads have published a lot of cruft over the years.
Mach61 (
talk)
17:53, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Tell me about it. It's an area that doesn't get a lot of attention from editors and sometimes it's difficult to get consensus to remove things even when it's unsourced or unlikely to ever be sourced. Popcornfud ( talk) 18:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: we already have articles for
Yamaha YMF7xx,
Yamaha YM2413,
Yamaha Y8950 and
Yamaha YMF278, all of which belong to this family. That's not a reason to keep this--or any--article, of course. But seeing as this article is better written than any of the individual device ones, wouldn't it make more sense to merge the device pages into this article, assuming we can find sourcing for any of them? While I'm no synth-head myself,
Bluefoxicy and others have done some great work collecting information on what I see as a potentially encyclopedic topic that would be a good merge target for a handful of pages that are likely not sustainable as a standalone article. Would it make sense to Draftify while those familiar with the subject work on merging and sourcing? This may be a bigger project than a single AfD can handle. I'd appreciate feedback from those more familiar with this topic.
Owen×
☎
15:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Draftification cannot overcome a lack of notability.
Mach61 (
talk)
21:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. My suggestion was based on the assumption that sources establishing notability can be found at least for some of the devices in this family, allowing for the merged article to meet NPRODUCT. Owen× ☎ 22:05, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Draftification cannot overcome a lack of notability.
Mach61 (
talk)
21:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: I can't really speak too much as to notability as per Wikipedia standards (I have pretty much no idea what I'm doing here...) but I do feel I should at least point out that two parts in this series - the YM3812/OPL2 and YMF262/OPL3 - were some of the most popular sound chips in personal computers in the early-to-mid 1990s. The article already mentions a sentence or two about that but I'm not sure it gets across just how popular these parts were. I'd (on a personal level, not as a comment related to policy) be sad to see what I consider to be a quite useful article on some formerly very popular products go away.
2604:2D80:C805:0:12A:7E6B:41A1:3C00 (
talk)
01:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- There's definitely useful and interesting stuff in the article — but it's the kind of thing that should be documented on a different wiki or personal blog, not Wikipedia.
Popcornfud (
talk)
01:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose the ideal(?) case would probably be having the article expanded on to more resemble something like
MOS Technology 6581, which I'll certainly agree it currently doesn't. Is this something you see as a valid route, if someone (or a few people) were to put in the effort to do so? (note: I am the same user as the one ending in :41A1:3C00, my IP address just changed... I should create an account sometime)
173.29.158.71 (
talk)
17:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think that's a great idea. As I said, I'm not familiar enough with the subject to be of much use on the authoring side, but if you need a helping hand on the administrative side, don't hesitate to give me a shout. And yes, please create an account. Justifiably or not, more weight is given to the opinions and edits of registered users. Owen× ☎ 17:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose the ideal(?) case would probably be having the article expanded on to more resemble something like
MOS Technology 6581, which I'll certainly agree it currently doesn't. Is this something you see as a valid route, if someone (or a few people) were to put in the effort to do so? (note: I am the same user as the one ending in :41A1:3C00, my IP address just changed... I should create an account sometime)
173.29.158.71 (
talk)
17:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- There's definitely useful and interesting stuff in the article — but it's the kind of thing that should be documented on a different wiki or personal blog, not Wikipedia.
Popcornfud (
talk)
01:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 04:03, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 04:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep or Draftify. A cursory search reveals sources with significant coverage of at least OPL2 and OPL3 such as https://archive.org/details/makingnoisecreat0000lein/page/38/mode/2up?q=YM3812 and https://archive.org/details/ultimatemultimed00jess/page/n457/mode/2up?q=YM3812. Some discuss waveforms and peculiar sound they produce: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Game_Engine_Black_Book_Wolfenstein_3D/hel6DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=YM3812&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover. I believe these are sufficient to either improve the article on its own merits, cleaning up specialist detail, or develop it further into a broader article about Yamaha FM synthesiser chips as proposed by OwenX. PaulT2022 ( talk) 07:41, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: Yamaha OPL 2 & 3 are absolute staples of Retro DOS Gaming. They have been included in most vintage sound cards like AdLib or Sound Blaster either as genuine Yamaha chips or as emulation. OPL 2/3 sound was a standard in early 1990s PC games. Search YouTube for "OPL", and you'll find lots of videos about OPL2 & 3. OPL 3 is still emulated to this very day in emulators like DOSBox. OPL 2 & 3 are discussed extensively in articles and videos about sound cards. Variants of the OPL chip family were also included in several vintage Yamaha keyboards (most are already listed in the article), which have their collectors, too. The aforementioned articles about specific chips other than the OPL 2 (YM3812) and 3 (YMF262), i.e. YMF7xx, YM2413, Y8950 & YMF278, should be merged into this one IMHO. Mottenkiste ( talk) 17:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.