- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Unanimous Keep and deletion nom withdrawn JGHowes talk 13:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- William Dickson (Falklands) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Delete: Dickson does not receive significant coverage in any RS.
- Dickson was and early settler of the Falkland Islands, and was given the responsibility of raising the British flag on specified occasions. He was murdered several months later. There are widespread minor mentions of Dickson in RS, at most they consist of a single sentence which states the information on the flag, and a mention of his name in the list of victims of Antonio Rivero. This is not WP:SIGCOV.
- Dickson also receives a mention of two paragraphs in the Dictionary of Falkland Biography. However this is a self-published source by David Tatham, which includes many substantial entries on clearly non-notable indivduals (e.g. 1, 2, 3). Guidelines state that "Self-published sources are seldom useful for demonstrating the notability of any subject." Boynamedsue ( talk) 07:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Second attempt by this editor to have the article deleted (see Talk:William Dickson (Falklands)). Just to add I've been gathering sources with the intention of expanding this article but I haven't invested the time and effort to do so because of the efforts by the OP to have it removed plus they've been dangling the threat of AFD since August 2020. It's been forum shopped to a number of forums and I note the comment in talk that this article is unlikely to pass for AFD. Dickson was a significant figure in the early history and was entrusted with an official role to perform as part of the re-establishment of permanent British rule in the Falklands. That establishes his notability. His entry in the Dictionary of Falkland Biography was written by David Tatham, a former governor in the islands and noted expert on Falklands history. I'll remind the OP he should be aware of the expert provision in WP:SPS as he used the same argument last time. Recommend speedy close of this AFD due to a repeat of already stale and rejected arguments. W C M email 08:44, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- PS, just some of the additional sources I've been looking at, of worthy note is that Dickson maintained a log of the Port Louis settlement, one time capital of the islands:
- Manning 1932 p.217
- Fitte 1966 p.94
- Fitte 1966 pp.118-119
- Fitte 1966 pp.121-128
- Vernet’s Memorandum Presented 7 May, 1852 in CO 78/43
- Gertrudis Mestivier quoted in El Lucero February 9, 1833
- Remarks upon the Present State of the Falkland Islands, by Commander Robertson of His Majesty’s Sloop Snake
- January 1835 ADM 1/43
- FO 6/500
- PRO 6/500/123
- Hope to Townsend January 21, 1832 ADM I/41
- Hope to Dickson January 16, 1833 in ADM 1/41
- Port Louis Settlement Log (aka Dickson’s Diary) ADM 1/42
- — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Wee Curry Monster (
talk •
contribs)
08:59, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- These are all primary historical sources except Fitte and Manning, and therefore not valid for establishing notability. The bibliographical details and the exact content of Fitte and Manning would be required for consideration by users.
- The guidelines are very clear that self-published sources should not be used to establish notability, as proven above. That they are self-published by experts makes no difference to this. If one person in the the Dictionary of Falklands Biography is rendered notable by appearing there, then all of them are, and clearly, very many individuals in this book are not in the slightest bit notable. This likely has bearing on why the book could not find a publisher.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
09:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I do hope that you're not going to repeat your practise of deterring outside comment with walls of text, this is only a selection of the sources I've been gathering with the intention of expanding on William Dickson. You will note I have already provided two additional sources that you were claiming didn't exist.
W
C
M
email
11:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- If you have valid sources, please add them so users can see what they say, you have not done so so far. I'm happy to withdraw this AfD if there are two paragraphs relating specifically to Dickson in an RS, rather than just trivial mentions. The onus is on you to show the relevant text in the two new sources. Please do not
make this personal.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
13:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- As I said in the talk page last year, I shall wait patiently for you to exhaust your options in forum shopping your campaign, then take the time to quietly upgrade this article without drama. Your dismissal of sources provided by myself and others is in the talk page. I see no benefit in rehashing the discussion as my prior experience in trying to engage with you is that you are goal orientated and appear to browbeat anyone who disagrees with you. It's not an environment I wish to edit in.
W
C
M
email
15:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you persist with a
WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and continue with uncivil debate and personal attacks which typify your contributions to wikipedia. No forum shopping has occurred, merely following correct AfD procedure of first seeking a merger. Your refusal to provide your sources both here and in the talkpage of the article are noted.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
16:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Sigh, well anyone who is interested may review Talk:Death of Blair Peach#Use of the sentence "killed by the police" and judge for themselves. It is depressingly similar to my previous interaction with you. W C M email 16:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you persist with a
WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and continue with uncivil debate and personal attacks which typify your contributions to wikipedia. No forum shopping has occurred, merely following correct AfD procedure of first seeking a merger. Your refusal to provide your sources both here and in the talkpage of the article are noted.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
16:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- As I said in the talk page last year, I shall wait patiently for you to exhaust your options in forum shopping your campaign, then take the time to quietly upgrade this article without drama. Your dismissal of sources provided by myself and others is in the talk page. I see no benefit in rehashing the discussion as my prior experience in trying to engage with you is that you are goal orientated and appear to browbeat anyone who disagrees with you. It's not an environment I wish to edit in.
W
C
M
email
15:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- If you have valid sources, please add them so users can see what they say, you have not done so so far. I'm happy to withdraw this AfD if there are two paragraphs relating specifically to Dickson in an RS, rather than just trivial mentions. The onus is on you to show the relevant text in the two new sources. Please do not
make this personal.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
13:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I do hope that you're not going to repeat your practise of deterring outside comment with walls of text, this is only a selection of the sources I've been gathering with the intention of expanding on William Dickson. You will note I have already provided two additional sources that you were claiming didn't exist.
W
C
M
email
11:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- The guidelines are very clear that self-published sources should not be used to establish notability, as proven above. That they are self-published by experts makes no difference to this. If one person in the the Dictionary of Falklands Biography is rendered notable by appearing there, then all of them are, and clearly, very many individuals in this book are not in the slightest bit notable. This likely has bearing on why the book could not find a publisher.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
09:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment to avoid further drama, User:Wee Curry Monster is implying that in the books he cites as "Manning, 1932" and "Fitte, 1966" there is significant coverage of Dickson. If he can provide the books' titles and publishers alongside the page number which provides WP:SIGCOV, I would normally say that means a couple of paragraphs about Dickson (in the voice of the author rather than a direct quotation of a primary source), I will happily withdraw the AfD. Boynamedsue ( talk) 16:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep largely as per User:Wee Curry Monster. Subject is a significant figure in the early history of the Falkland Islands - including as the leader of the colony for a period. The OP's apparent plan to use the biography of a killer as a coatrack for the biography of his victim - when that victim is notable for reasons other than the fact of his having been killed - seems perverse and inappropriate.
- I do not regard Tatham as self-published within the spirit of WP:SPS. The point of WP:SPS is that anyone can publish anything and the mere fact of publication does not make something reliable. However, the mere fact or circumstances of publication does not make a work unreliable either. Thatham is a noted expert and former governor of the islands. His acknowledgement notes that the Falkland Islands government funded his basic expenses and printing costs (without seeking editorial control). Shoot, there's even a foreword by Douglas Hurd. This is a long way from the sort of source that WP:SPS envisages. Kahastok talk 19:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep This article on an important participant in the early events that had implications for shaping of the Falklands Islands and the Falklanders is substantive and adequately sourced, with a potential for further development. As for Tatham's Dictionary, that is an informative, well researched and reliable source on Falklands history'; notice that the Guidelines quoted above say 'seldom' not 'never'. Apcbg ( talk) 20:03, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I fully agree with you and Kahastok in that it is a very good self-published source. I have used it myself as a source for information on articles whose notability is not in doubt. But do you not feel that the fact it includes many obviously non-notable entries weakens the case that an exception should be made for it? Boynamedsue ( talk) 20:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- No exception needs to be made, because WP:SPS does not apply. Kahastok talk 20:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- That some entries might be 'obviously non-notable' is just your opinion; otherwise, non-self-published sources may include non-notable entries too. Apcbg ( talk) 09:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per WCM. Secondary sources' mention of Dickson's log (which BTW made him, along with María Sáenz de Vernet, one of the firsts chroniclers of the Falkland Islands) is enough by itself for notability.--- Darius ( talk) 21:15, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- If you can name the source and link or quote the significant coverage (rather than a trivial mention), I'll be happy to withdraw the AfD. Boynamedsue ( talk) 21:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Withdraw AfD In a discussion with Darius, he assured me that Dickson receives significant coverage in a book by Mario Tesler which he cites on the article. Tesler is an opinionated source and in my opinion should be used with care for all but his own opinions and commonly agreed facts, but the book is not self-published and is widely cited, therefore, unlike Tatham, is valid to establish notability. Boynamedsue ( talk) 08:23, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep -- This refers to a period when ownership of the Falklands/Malvinas was actively contested. Despite his apparently lowly status, I suspect he was an important figure in this. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:37, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Unanimous Keep and deletion nom withdrawn JGHowes talk 13:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- William Dickson (Falklands) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Delete: Dickson does not receive significant coverage in any RS.
- Dickson was and early settler of the Falkland Islands, and was given the responsibility of raising the British flag on specified occasions. He was murdered several months later. There are widespread minor mentions of Dickson in RS, at most they consist of a single sentence which states the information on the flag, and a mention of his name in the list of victims of Antonio Rivero. This is not WP:SIGCOV.
- Dickson also receives a mention of two paragraphs in the Dictionary of Falkland Biography. However this is a self-published source by David Tatham, which includes many substantial entries on clearly non-notable indivduals (e.g. 1, 2, 3). Guidelines state that "Self-published sources are seldom useful for demonstrating the notability of any subject." Boynamedsue ( talk) 07:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Second attempt by this editor to have the article deleted (see Talk:William Dickson (Falklands)). Just to add I've been gathering sources with the intention of expanding this article but I haven't invested the time and effort to do so because of the efforts by the OP to have it removed plus they've been dangling the threat of AFD since August 2020. It's been forum shopped to a number of forums and I note the comment in talk that this article is unlikely to pass for AFD. Dickson was a significant figure in the early history and was entrusted with an official role to perform as part of the re-establishment of permanent British rule in the Falklands. That establishes his notability. His entry in the Dictionary of Falkland Biography was written by David Tatham, a former governor in the islands and noted expert on Falklands history. I'll remind the OP he should be aware of the expert provision in WP:SPS as he used the same argument last time. Recommend speedy close of this AFD due to a repeat of already stale and rejected arguments. W C M email 08:44, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- PS, just some of the additional sources I've been looking at, of worthy note is that Dickson maintained a log of the Port Louis settlement, one time capital of the islands:
- Manning 1932 p.217
- Fitte 1966 p.94
- Fitte 1966 pp.118-119
- Fitte 1966 pp.121-128
- Vernet’s Memorandum Presented 7 May, 1852 in CO 78/43
- Gertrudis Mestivier quoted in El Lucero February 9, 1833
- Remarks upon the Present State of the Falkland Islands, by Commander Robertson of His Majesty’s Sloop Snake
- January 1835 ADM 1/43
- FO 6/500
- PRO 6/500/123
- Hope to Townsend January 21, 1832 ADM I/41
- Hope to Dickson January 16, 1833 in ADM 1/41
- Port Louis Settlement Log (aka Dickson’s Diary) ADM 1/42
- — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Wee Curry Monster (
talk •
contribs)
08:59, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- These are all primary historical sources except Fitte and Manning, and therefore not valid for establishing notability. The bibliographical details and the exact content of Fitte and Manning would be required for consideration by users.
- The guidelines are very clear that self-published sources should not be used to establish notability, as proven above. That they are self-published by experts makes no difference to this. If one person in the the Dictionary of Falklands Biography is rendered notable by appearing there, then all of them are, and clearly, very many individuals in this book are not in the slightest bit notable. This likely has bearing on why the book could not find a publisher.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
09:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I do hope that you're not going to repeat your practise of deterring outside comment with walls of text, this is only a selection of the sources I've been gathering with the intention of expanding on William Dickson. You will note I have already provided two additional sources that you were claiming didn't exist.
W
C
M
email
11:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- If you have valid sources, please add them so users can see what they say, you have not done so so far. I'm happy to withdraw this AfD if there are two paragraphs relating specifically to Dickson in an RS, rather than just trivial mentions. The onus is on you to show the relevant text in the two new sources. Please do not
make this personal.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
13:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- As I said in the talk page last year, I shall wait patiently for you to exhaust your options in forum shopping your campaign, then take the time to quietly upgrade this article without drama. Your dismissal of sources provided by myself and others is in the talk page. I see no benefit in rehashing the discussion as my prior experience in trying to engage with you is that you are goal orientated and appear to browbeat anyone who disagrees with you. It's not an environment I wish to edit in.
W
C
M
email
15:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you persist with a
WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and continue with uncivil debate and personal attacks which typify your contributions to wikipedia. No forum shopping has occurred, merely following correct AfD procedure of first seeking a merger. Your refusal to provide your sources both here and in the talkpage of the article are noted.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
16:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Sigh, well anyone who is interested may review Talk:Death of Blair Peach#Use of the sentence "killed by the police" and judge for themselves. It is depressingly similar to my previous interaction with you. W C M email 16:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you persist with a
WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and continue with uncivil debate and personal attacks which typify your contributions to wikipedia. No forum shopping has occurred, merely following correct AfD procedure of first seeking a merger. Your refusal to provide your sources both here and in the talkpage of the article are noted.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
16:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- As I said in the talk page last year, I shall wait patiently for you to exhaust your options in forum shopping your campaign, then take the time to quietly upgrade this article without drama. Your dismissal of sources provided by myself and others is in the talk page. I see no benefit in rehashing the discussion as my prior experience in trying to engage with you is that you are goal orientated and appear to browbeat anyone who disagrees with you. It's not an environment I wish to edit in.
W
C
M
email
15:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- If you have valid sources, please add them so users can see what they say, you have not done so so far. I'm happy to withdraw this AfD if there are two paragraphs relating specifically to Dickson in an RS, rather than just trivial mentions. The onus is on you to show the relevant text in the two new sources. Please do not
make this personal.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
13:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I do hope that you're not going to repeat your practise of deterring outside comment with walls of text, this is only a selection of the sources I've been gathering with the intention of expanding on William Dickson. You will note I have already provided two additional sources that you were claiming didn't exist.
W
C
M
email
11:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- The guidelines are very clear that self-published sources should not be used to establish notability, as proven above. That they are self-published by experts makes no difference to this. If one person in the the Dictionary of Falklands Biography is rendered notable by appearing there, then all of them are, and clearly, very many individuals in this book are not in the slightest bit notable. This likely has bearing on why the book could not find a publisher.
Boynamedsue (
talk)
09:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment to avoid further drama, User:Wee Curry Monster is implying that in the books he cites as "Manning, 1932" and "Fitte, 1966" there is significant coverage of Dickson. If he can provide the books' titles and publishers alongside the page number which provides WP:SIGCOV, I would normally say that means a couple of paragraphs about Dickson (in the voice of the author rather than a direct quotation of a primary source), I will happily withdraw the AfD. Boynamedsue ( talk) 16:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep largely as per User:Wee Curry Monster. Subject is a significant figure in the early history of the Falkland Islands - including as the leader of the colony for a period. The OP's apparent plan to use the biography of a killer as a coatrack for the biography of his victim - when that victim is notable for reasons other than the fact of his having been killed - seems perverse and inappropriate.
- I do not regard Tatham as self-published within the spirit of WP:SPS. The point of WP:SPS is that anyone can publish anything and the mere fact of publication does not make something reliable. However, the mere fact or circumstances of publication does not make a work unreliable either. Thatham is a noted expert and former governor of the islands. His acknowledgement notes that the Falkland Islands government funded his basic expenses and printing costs (without seeking editorial control). Shoot, there's even a foreword by Douglas Hurd. This is a long way from the sort of source that WP:SPS envisages. Kahastok talk 19:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep This article on an important participant in the early events that had implications for shaping of the Falklands Islands and the Falklanders is substantive and adequately sourced, with a potential for further development. As for Tatham's Dictionary, that is an informative, well researched and reliable source on Falklands history'; notice that the Guidelines quoted above say 'seldom' not 'never'. Apcbg ( talk) 20:03, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- I fully agree with you and Kahastok in that it is a very good self-published source. I have used it myself as a source for information on articles whose notability is not in doubt. But do you not feel that the fact it includes many obviously non-notable entries weakens the case that an exception should be made for it? Boynamedsue ( talk) 20:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- No exception needs to be made, because WP:SPS does not apply. Kahastok talk 20:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- That some entries might be 'obviously non-notable' is just your opinion; otherwise, non-self-published sources may include non-notable entries too. Apcbg ( talk) 09:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per WCM. Secondary sources' mention of Dickson's log (which BTW made him, along with María Sáenz de Vernet, one of the firsts chroniclers of the Falkland Islands) is enough by itself for notability.--- Darius ( talk) 21:15, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- If you can name the source and link or quote the significant coverage (rather than a trivial mention), I'll be happy to withdraw the AfD. Boynamedsue ( talk) 21:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Withdraw AfD In a discussion with Darius, he assured me that Dickson receives significant coverage in a book by Mario Tesler which he cites on the article. Tesler is an opinionated source and in my opinion should be used with care for all but his own opinions and commonly agreed facts, but the book is not self-published and is widely cited, therefore, unlike Tatham, is valid to establish notability. Boynamedsue ( talk) 08:23, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep -- This refers to a period when ownership of the Falklands/Malvinas was actively contested. Despite his apparently lowly status, I suspect he was an important figure in this. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:37, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.