The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No-one seems to question the fact that there is substantial coverage in reliable sources, but some editors argue that the fact that the sources are regional or local means that they should be disregarded in the discussion of notability. None of the editors arguing for this view, however, have pointed to any Wikipedia policy or guideline that support this position. WP:GNG requires that the sources are reliable and independent of the subject, not that they necessarily are national. Pax:Vobiscum ( talk) 11:40, 29 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Wendy van der Poel

Wendy van der Poel (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)

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No evidence of notability. Some articles in the local newspapers[ [1]] (her village is some 10km from Leiden), but no participation in senior international championships, no national titles, and in the end very few sources in general [2]. Fram ( talk) 09:23, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 09:23, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 09:23, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep Meets GNG, and WP:BASIC. It's about coverage not about results. Enough references in newspapers. Selection of 8: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. SportsOlympic ( talk) 10:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
  • All very local articles (Leidsch Dagblad and Leidsche Courant). If every person (and local shop, street party, ...) who gets some coverage in their local newspaper would get an article, there would be no end to it. Oh,3 and 4 are the same reference, by the way. Fram ( talk) 13:27, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
    • What do you mean with "very" local? If you take a look at those newspapers, you see they include all the main national and international news. But however, tt doesn't matter if it's an article in a regional newspaper; as long as it is a reliable, intellectually independent WP:SECONDARY source independent of the subject. See also the discussion Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 36#Is everybody reaching GNG notable. The newspapers used as sources are well established newspapers as they even have at the English Wikipedia their own pages: Leydse Courant, Leidsch Dagblad. Also, Van der Poel is not a random local speed skater as you do suggest. She was part of the national team, competing at the highest division speed skating competitions in the Netherlands. SportsOlympic ( talk) 14:10, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
      • I did not suggest she is a "random local speed skater", but apparently being on the national team in the Netherlands still only gets you articles in your local newspaper. Yes, such local newspapers also bring national and international news, but in addition to that, they bring items only of interest to readers from their locality. That's why a Leiden skater gets articles in Leiden newspapers and not in the ones from Nijmegen or Eindhoven or Maastricht. Fram ( talk) 14:27, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
        • Yes, love that, they write in deeper about her background and family etc. so ideal to write a Wikipedia article. No need to look further. But you will find already via Delpher.nl in other newspaper >50 articles where they write something about her. SportsOlympic ( talk) 15:21, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
        • "Something", indeed, they mention her in results or in one sentence ("Van der Poel won X" or some such). So, like I said, she doesn't get articles (or truly significant attention within a larger article) in newspapers outside her hometown (well, the town close to her village, and where she studied). I have only looked at the first 10 results via that link, feel free to link to ones I may have missed which truly are about her. Fram ( talk) 15:33, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
          • Saw some sections written about her in those newspapers, but not going to outline here as the above mentioned news articles are better. It shows she has been of interest in many other (national) newspapers. SportsOlympic ( talk) 18:10, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply
• Çomment. A passing mention in a national news source is not enough it needs to be entirely about her, local news sources are not suitable to establish notability. Australianblackbelt ( talk) 23:34, 21 October 2020 (UTC) reply

• @ Australianblackbelt: please show the guideline that states that local secondary sources are not valid. (And in your first sentence "it needs to be entirely about her" is not correct per WP:BASIC (even explained in first bullit)). SportsOlympic ( talk) 07:43, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Reply. @ SportsOlympic: what I am saying is that a local newspaper is not enough to establish notability even if it is entirely about the person, if it was acceptable I could create dozens more mages. An article needs to be all about the person in a national news source to first establish notability then you can use local news to complete the wikipedia article. I have created many pages and this is the biggest hurdle in establishing a persons notability. If you find a news article outside the person's country thats considered international news which is better than national. Australianblackbelt ( talk) 08:51, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

• • It’s not “a”, but multiple. But reliable secondary sources, local or not, are counting for Wikipedia articles. That are the basic guidelines. SportsOlympic ( talk) 14:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 10:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC) reply

’’’Reply’’’. @ SportsOlympic: What do you mean local or not?? Point is local news doesn’t establish notability period if they did I could write loads of articles on people in local papers god knows I’ve tried. Australianblackbelt ( talk) 02:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply

As long there are multiple articles published in reliable, independent secondary sources independent of the subject (could be well established local secondary sources) it counts for notability. Other good example of an article I created of a person based on regional secondary sources: Arnol Kox. SportsOlympic ( talk) 06:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply

@ SportsOlympic: One of the tons of reasons we don’t except local news sources is that every local mayor on the planet would be on Wikipedia because they are in the local papers every month. Don’t get upset if someone nominates Mr Kox’s page for deletion cause it would get deleted 100% Australianblackbelt ( talk)

@ Australianblackbelt: that is your opinion. Because if that would be the case, it should be in the Wikipedia guidelines. But it isn’t. Your example about mayors: see written at WP:POLOUTCOMES “Mayors of cities of at least regional prominence have usually survived AFD, although the article should say more than just "Jane Doe is the mayor of Cityville".” SportsOlympic ( talk) 20:57, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep per extensive coverage the Leidsch Dagblad. Nominator errs thrice: [1] This is a regional not a local newspaper [2] If it were local coverage -- something would be wrong with it. [3] Given the proof of WP:GNG, chooses to argue instead of withdrawing. gidonb ( talk) 10:29, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
  • A newspaper which is only aimed at part of a Dutch province is a local newspaper, no matter what that article claims. Your point 2 makes no sense. Fram ( talk) 10:33, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
    • I rest my case. You WP:BLUDGEON for the sake of saying just anything, instead of withdrawing. gidonb ( talk) 10:42, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
      • I'm sorry, but "If it were local coverage -- something would be wrong with it." simply makes no sense at all. Fram ( talk) 10:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
        • It's a hypothetical. Even if it was a local newspaper, the sources should still be considered. You argued about this -- I answered. The newspaper, however, is a regional one. As to the part that seems to confuse you about the Netherlands: this is one of the most densely populated countries in the world and the Leiden region is in its main conurbation, the Randstad. As a result, regions here will have a smaller area. Newspapers serve people, not soil. gidonb ( talk) 10:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
          • I'm a Belgian, I'm not completely uninformed about the Netherlands, thanks. I'll not try explaining why what you wrote has the opposite meaning of what you wanted to say. Fram ( talk) 11:26, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
            • In this case you could have known that the provinces of the Netherlands aren't terribly important, as the Netherlands is a unitarian country. I'll use the province sidetrack, however, to explain it a bit differently. South Holland is the most populous province of the Netherlands, one of 12 provinces that contains between a fourth and a fifth of the population. Regions within needn't be enormously large in area. And if that did not help maybe the next respondents will explain it in a way that makes more sense to you. BTW you do not need to be convinced by or argue with all who disagree with you. In fact, the latter is strongly discouraged. gidonb ( talk) 16:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete coverage in a local newspaper does not show notability. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete. Now that that’s clarified that they are local news I don’t believe subject is notable. A regional newspaper is not a national one. Australianblackbelt ( talk) 20:00, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply

Don’t forget, as I said above, there are also multiple sections written about her in national newspapers. SportsOlympic ( talk) 21:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete. It is in the nature of local news to focus on local citizens who win something, regardless of the age level of the competition. Now, this speed skater was a junior competitor who also accomplished something on a national level, but not an international level. And there is not exactly a shortage of Dutch speed skaters who have went on to international level. This is why local news coverage doesn't necessarily bestow notability on people. Geschichte ( talk) 13:27, 26 October 2020 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.