The result was keep. -- bainer ( talk) 02:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Closer's notes
In determining the final consensus, the comments of several very new users were disregarded:
Furthermore the comments of unregistered users were disregarded.
Even after disregarding these comments, there was a comprehensive consensus in favour of keeping the article, on the basis that the article meets the notability guideline for web-specific content, which was the premise for the original nomination. Indeed, the most persuasive arguments, which were agreed with by a number of editors, argued that the subject meets all three of the criteria listed, having been the subject of independent works, having won an award, and having been distributed through several independent media, including print media.
![]() | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}} . |
I read and like this webcomic, but it fails WP:WEB: it has a single item of third-party coverage that may or may not be reliable, and that is also not specifically about the subject. Sandstein 07:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep- This is one of the better webcomics that deserves its own article. This isn't some random, poorly rendered Comic Genesis abomination. Mr. Southworth is a well established and accomplished web cartoonist whose influence is significant throughout the webcomics community. Deletion would be a mistake. LCARS 04:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep- the comic has a significant amount of traffic, the information in the article is fairly basic, and contains little that is not taken from the strip itself, is supported by multiple outside sources, and, most of all, quite clearly exists. Hence it having a site, and such. Traitorfish 19:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep this entry in Wikipedia: As a professional designer and novelist I can clearly state that this is one of the better comics on the web. Clean, crisp, professional, with a visual depth and quality beyond most comics. It is unique in its design, humor, theme and array of interesting characters. It is definitely worthy of a Wikipedia entry. Grun4it 10:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC) — Grun4it ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Keep this entry in Wikipedia: Paul Southworth has been creating web entertainment for nearly a decade under the previous comic, "Krazy Larry". The comic is not fake, nor is the artist (I have signed artwork and I fed him once). This is art, this is good work and it should have an entry as any major web comic would. There is no formal peer review process here nor is there any special reason why web comics should be purged, so I can't even see the motivation. Save everybody! pseydtonne 15:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep This stinks of personal vendetta. Someone seems to have decided that webcomics are not encyclopedic, period, but I don't see that published in any of the official rules. Can someone point me at the line where it says webcomics aren't allowed? Betsumei 15:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Under the guidelines referenced above, this content is acceptable via the following passage:
Considering it need only meet one of those, yet meets two, fairly well nullifies the argument against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.134.35.34 ( talk • contribs)
keep I think that considering that Ugly Hill meets the requirements of "notability" (in quotes because those requirements are incredibly open to intepretation and opinion) then the burdeon is on the nominating party to show why the comic was even nominated in the first place. Do they even do research here or just nominate and assume that no one is going to check to see if they actually did a fact check first? Lessthankate — Lessthankate ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Keep: If Wiki is what it CLAIMS to be, that is an Encyclopedia - it has no right to judge what is notable or not, since that is only an opinion. Webcomics are a phenomenon of this century and deserve to be noted as such. An editors opinion is worthless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.88.201.64 ( talk • contribs)
Keep Odd that this happens on the heels of Brad Giugar's deletion controversy as well. Mr. Southworth is, in fact, a published author and has been a web cartoonist for quite a while now. Editing an article for accuracy is one thing; deleting it for claims of it not meeting standards is another, especially when said criteria have been met. There's no way to prove a vendetta against Mr. Southworth, but it certainly smells of it. Agentx42 17:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
keep - Just because the comic isn't well-known to all doesn't mean that this entry isn't of significant value. The comic has won a major industry award, has been printed in a book, and is from a long-established artist who is known in the industry. introp 17:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC) – The preceding comment was added by 207.42.84.170 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). reply
Keep - I dont understand any argument for removing the entry for Ugly Hill. People above have already cited WHY. This many "keeps" with only a single request for removal looks to me that it is indeed a personal vendetta against the webcomic or its author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmchale ( talk • contribs) — Dmchale ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Keep - smells like personal matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.251.33.100 ( talk • contribs)
Keep - I'm hearing a lot of talk about how it fails WP:WEB. Ugly Hill is not a website, but rather, a comic featured on a website. The comic can also be found in printed form, in the book "Eyes of Liquid Rage." This is not an article about a website; it's an article about a webcomic. Runningonsunshine 19:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC) — Runningonsunshine ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Keep - Ugly Hill is a notable work. It was recently picked up by a major comics publisher (Viper Comics) and will be distributed in print form internationally to comic book stores and larger book stores via Viper Comics and Diamond Comics Distributors. Official Press Release Toonhound 19:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - I went over this with Evil Inc. Do i have to do it again? If it doesn't have enough sources, put a SOURCE tag on it. If you think it isn't notable enough CHECK! The Shroud 19:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - Personnaly I feel this is a mistake on behalf of whoever brought thsi topic up. Ugly Hill is a perfectly legitimate web-comic and has as much right to its own wikipedia entry as any other web-comic. As a fan of said comic I feel that deleteing the entry would be absurd. (Post by a concerned fan.)
Possible keep per Webcomic notability guidelines for Awarded or featured webcomics for the The 2007 Cartoonists' Choice Awards. Let's wait untill 19 February for that. Otherwise, merge with Viper Comics. JackSparrow Ninja 23:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - as others have noted, Ugly Hill has been nominated for the Webcartoonists Choice Award twice, and has a book published by Lulu (a self-publishing company). [2] This (and many other webcomics) is no less notable than the many indie rock musicians listed on Wikipedia. To be consistent, if we're to scour Wikipedia of webcomics, we should also remove the indie bands that self-produce CDs. -- zandperl 02:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - The nominations and references above are sufficient notability, and even though I don't read the comic, nor most webcomics in general, I'm familiar with the name and artist (Yes, OR, I know). His presence and notability is obvious from a quick google. Mzmadmike 19:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - Restating the reasons for this keep is pointless. There have been many reasons given in this article by both WP users and first-timers who still make valid points. All of these are ignored, and most likely will be ignored, by those who VfD. This is clearly starting to take the form of a vendetta of some sort. Dynamic1 03:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Query Was the Ugly Hill Wikientry first given an opportunity to verify itself by placing the appropriate tags in the article itself? By this I mean, were the less drastic options of first demanding sourcing for the article, which by reference would then help prove if the comic constitutes Wikipedia's requirements for notability? I am not an established Wikieditor, and so am only posting this as an anonymous query out of curiosity. It seems to me that if there is this much backlash over webcomics, as has been the case for both Evil Inc. and Ugly Hill, then a more appropriate course of action would be to first allow editors an opportunity to prove notability by requesting additional verification for sources of the article. 72.178.166.5 Anonymous Me
Strong Keep Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. I have yet to see any convincing argument for why notable online phenomena like webcomics should not be included, and this is no exception. Skybright Daye 04:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Strong Delete The more often these so-called "notability" guidelines are abused and shown for what they are, the sooner they will be rescinded. I the meantime, no permanent damage will be done by deleting this excellent article on a popular and well-known webcomic. -- Turbothy 07:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Weak delete self-publication is not a criterion of notability, anyone can pay their 500 bucks and get published via self-publishing, if I had the money I could publish 10 volumes consisting of nothing but the letter 'a', that doesn't make me a notable author. Nomination for awards is something, but if they didn't WIN any then that's not much to go on. I would also like to register a strong complaint against massive meatpuppetry here. In addition 90% of the 'keep' votes (yes, they're votes, they don't argue from Wiki policy for most of them) are along the lines of either "what harm does it do" (see WP:ILIKEIT) or "Wikipedia should have ALL human knowledge! All of it!" which blatently ignores the fact that WP:V WP:N and WP:NOT exist for very good reasons, to keep us from becoming innundated with the unsourced, unverifiable and non-notable. I'm not sure about this comic, it seems to be just shy of notability, but the arguments for 'keep' just aren't convincing me Wintermut3 08:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment/Observation This AFD is getting a lot of attention. Any webcomic news site worth its salt is reporting this. Of course, that doesn't give much argument against the whole "meat-puppetry" chants, but it's not like they're saying "cast your vote!" because everybody knows it's not a democracy. At least it's not a democracy when there are more keep votes than delete votes. When there ARE more delete votes, it seems to be totally super democratic. The delete-prone editors need to be at least consistent with their arguments because the general outside observation is that those who have this vendetta against webcomics flip-flop their methods of determination.
This debate is such a big deal and this comic is so freaking notable that I think anybody notable in webcomics is watching this. This is not "fancruft", another term I see thrown around. I don't think even half the people here are real "fans". I mean, I like this comic, as probably a lot of people here do. But I think this AFD debate represents the last chance Wikipedia has for good faith regarding Webcomics, not just to save this article.
There are sources, editors. They're there. And they're reliable. It's all a matter of subjectivity at this point. Please don't be jerks about this. SS Slacker 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Strong Keep, and nominate Wikipedia's FUBARed definition of "notability" for deletion. It's textbook non-notable! It's not verifiable, nobody's heard of it outside the small community of diehard Wiki-editors who invoke it at every opportunity to the consternation and mystification of everybody else. It's like jargon had sex with fancruft, and this is their baby: wikipedia "notability."
This sick, sad cycle of things being nominated for deletion based on lack of notability... and somebody sees it and then attempts to establish notability (which, in the real world, "having been noted by a large number of people" does establish), and then the mere fact that the rest of the world has a different (and more relevant) definition of notability than etymological abortion that wikipedia has adopted is used as an excuse to ignore actual attempts to provide verifiable "notability." The sickest part is, in the above debate, it looks (at a glance, anyway), as if the passage which mentions that "meatpuppetry" can't help but negate neutrality is being cited to excuse the fact that people are reacting vindictively to the "meatpuppetry". For the record: "meatpuppetry" is also mystifying jargon to people who aren't part of the die-hard wiki community, and it only makes the cycle worse when people who attempt to establish ACTUAL notability (not wikipedia's non-notable definition of notability), they're greeted with a word that can really only be taken as some sort of vague insult and words to the effect that their opinions don't matter.
What PURPOSE does it serve to say, about any topic, that "This doesn't look notable. Please show us that it is, or it'll be deleted."... and then acting surprised when you get flooded by people saying, "Uh, this is notable. I and many other people have noted it."... and then saying in response, "Sorry, you're just a meatpuppet. Doesn't count."? It's like this process is DESIGNED to create this kind of situation in order to create endorphins in the brains of the elitists who get off on the fact that they've spent so much time learning the jargon and policies and procedures of Wikipedia while the crude unwashed masses of "meatpuppets" haven't.
Jesus Dead Jew on a Stick Christ... Wikipedia at large should either come up with a word besides "notable" that means what is actually being asked for (or just drop the "notability" requirement and focus on verifiability, as after all, the requirement that things be "notable" just leads into the fact that such "notability" results in verifiable sources), or stop acting surprised when the public replies to questions of notability by showing that the subject actually is notable.
Wikipedia's quickly turning into every hilariously bad satire of an impenetrible bureaucracy whose rules have evolved completely out of touch with the public interest they're supposed to serve... Alexandra Erin 12:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC) reply
The result was keep. -- bainer ( talk) 02:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Closer's notes
In determining the final consensus, the comments of several very new users were disregarded:
Furthermore the comments of unregistered users were disregarded.
Even after disregarding these comments, there was a comprehensive consensus in favour of keeping the article, on the basis that the article meets the notability guideline for web-specific content, which was the premise for the original nomination. Indeed, the most persuasive arguments, which were agreed with by a number of editors, argued that the subject meets all three of the criteria listed, having been the subject of independent works, having won an award, and having been distributed through several independent media, including print media.
![]() | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}} . |
I read and like this webcomic, but it fails WP:WEB: it has a single item of third-party coverage that may or may not be reliable, and that is also not specifically about the subject. Sandstein 07:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep- This is one of the better webcomics that deserves its own article. This isn't some random, poorly rendered Comic Genesis abomination. Mr. Southworth is a well established and accomplished web cartoonist whose influence is significant throughout the webcomics community. Deletion would be a mistake. LCARS 04:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep- the comic has a significant amount of traffic, the information in the article is fairly basic, and contains little that is not taken from the strip itself, is supported by multiple outside sources, and, most of all, quite clearly exists. Hence it having a site, and such. Traitorfish 19:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep this entry in Wikipedia: As a professional designer and novelist I can clearly state that this is one of the better comics on the web. Clean, crisp, professional, with a visual depth and quality beyond most comics. It is unique in its design, humor, theme and array of interesting characters. It is definitely worthy of a Wikipedia entry. Grun4it 10:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC) — Grun4it ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Keep this entry in Wikipedia: Paul Southworth has been creating web entertainment for nearly a decade under the previous comic, "Krazy Larry". The comic is not fake, nor is the artist (I have signed artwork and I fed him once). This is art, this is good work and it should have an entry as any major web comic would. There is no formal peer review process here nor is there any special reason why web comics should be purged, so I can't even see the motivation. Save everybody! pseydtonne 15:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep This stinks of personal vendetta. Someone seems to have decided that webcomics are not encyclopedic, period, but I don't see that published in any of the official rules. Can someone point me at the line where it says webcomics aren't allowed? Betsumei 15:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Under the guidelines referenced above, this content is acceptable via the following passage:
Considering it need only meet one of those, yet meets two, fairly well nullifies the argument against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.134.35.34 ( talk • contribs)
keep I think that considering that Ugly Hill meets the requirements of "notability" (in quotes because those requirements are incredibly open to intepretation and opinion) then the burdeon is on the nominating party to show why the comic was even nominated in the first place. Do they even do research here or just nominate and assume that no one is going to check to see if they actually did a fact check first? Lessthankate — Lessthankate ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Keep: If Wiki is what it CLAIMS to be, that is an Encyclopedia - it has no right to judge what is notable or not, since that is only an opinion. Webcomics are a phenomenon of this century and deserve to be noted as such. An editors opinion is worthless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.88.201.64 ( talk • contribs)
Keep Odd that this happens on the heels of Brad Giugar's deletion controversy as well. Mr. Southworth is, in fact, a published author and has been a web cartoonist for quite a while now. Editing an article for accuracy is one thing; deleting it for claims of it not meeting standards is another, especially when said criteria have been met. There's no way to prove a vendetta against Mr. Southworth, but it certainly smells of it. Agentx42 17:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
keep - Just because the comic isn't well-known to all doesn't mean that this entry isn't of significant value. The comic has won a major industry award, has been printed in a book, and is from a long-established artist who is known in the industry. introp 17:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC) – The preceding comment was added by 207.42.84.170 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). reply
Keep - I dont understand any argument for removing the entry for Ugly Hill. People above have already cited WHY. This many "keeps" with only a single request for removal looks to me that it is indeed a personal vendetta against the webcomic or its author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmchale ( talk • contribs) — Dmchale ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Keep - smells like personal matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.251.33.100 ( talk • contribs)
Keep - I'm hearing a lot of talk about how it fails WP:WEB. Ugly Hill is not a website, but rather, a comic featured on a website. The comic can also be found in printed form, in the book "Eyes of Liquid Rage." This is not an article about a website; it's an article about a webcomic. Runningonsunshine 19:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC) — Runningonsunshine ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Keep - Ugly Hill is a notable work. It was recently picked up by a major comics publisher (Viper Comics) and will be distributed in print form internationally to comic book stores and larger book stores via Viper Comics and Diamond Comics Distributors. Official Press Release Toonhound 19:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - I went over this with Evil Inc. Do i have to do it again? If it doesn't have enough sources, put a SOURCE tag on it. If you think it isn't notable enough CHECK! The Shroud 19:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - Personnaly I feel this is a mistake on behalf of whoever brought thsi topic up. Ugly Hill is a perfectly legitimate web-comic and has as much right to its own wikipedia entry as any other web-comic. As a fan of said comic I feel that deleteing the entry would be absurd. (Post by a concerned fan.)
Possible keep per Webcomic notability guidelines for Awarded or featured webcomics for the The 2007 Cartoonists' Choice Awards. Let's wait untill 19 February for that. Otherwise, merge with Viper Comics. JackSparrow Ninja 23:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - as others have noted, Ugly Hill has been nominated for the Webcartoonists Choice Award twice, and has a book published by Lulu (a self-publishing company). [2] This (and many other webcomics) is no less notable than the many indie rock musicians listed on Wikipedia. To be consistent, if we're to scour Wikipedia of webcomics, we should also remove the indie bands that self-produce CDs. -- zandperl 02:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - The nominations and references above are sufficient notability, and even though I don't read the comic, nor most webcomics in general, I'm familiar with the name and artist (Yes, OR, I know). His presence and notability is obvious from a quick google. Mzmadmike 19:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Keep - Restating the reasons for this keep is pointless. There have been many reasons given in this article by both WP users and first-timers who still make valid points. All of these are ignored, and most likely will be ignored, by those who VfD. This is clearly starting to take the form of a vendetta of some sort. Dynamic1 03:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Query Was the Ugly Hill Wikientry first given an opportunity to verify itself by placing the appropriate tags in the article itself? By this I mean, were the less drastic options of first demanding sourcing for the article, which by reference would then help prove if the comic constitutes Wikipedia's requirements for notability? I am not an established Wikieditor, and so am only posting this as an anonymous query out of curiosity. It seems to me that if there is this much backlash over webcomics, as has been the case for both Evil Inc. and Ugly Hill, then a more appropriate course of action would be to first allow editors an opportunity to prove notability by requesting additional verification for sources of the article. 72.178.166.5 Anonymous Me
Strong Keep Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. I have yet to see any convincing argument for why notable online phenomena like webcomics should not be included, and this is no exception. Skybright Daye 04:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Strong Delete The more often these so-called "notability" guidelines are abused and shown for what they are, the sooner they will be rescinded. I the meantime, no permanent damage will be done by deleting this excellent article on a popular and well-known webcomic. -- Turbothy 07:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Weak delete self-publication is not a criterion of notability, anyone can pay their 500 bucks and get published via self-publishing, if I had the money I could publish 10 volumes consisting of nothing but the letter 'a', that doesn't make me a notable author. Nomination for awards is something, but if they didn't WIN any then that's not much to go on. I would also like to register a strong complaint against massive meatpuppetry here. In addition 90% of the 'keep' votes (yes, they're votes, they don't argue from Wiki policy for most of them) are along the lines of either "what harm does it do" (see WP:ILIKEIT) or "Wikipedia should have ALL human knowledge! All of it!" which blatently ignores the fact that WP:V WP:N and WP:NOT exist for very good reasons, to keep us from becoming innundated with the unsourced, unverifiable and non-notable. I'm not sure about this comic, it seems to be just shy of notability, but the arguments for 'keep' just aren't convincing me Wintermut3 08:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment/Observation This AFD is getting a lot of attention. Any webcomic news site worth its salt is reporting this. Of course, that doesn't give much argument against the whole "meat-puppetry" chants, but it's not like they're saying "cast your vote!" because everybody knows it's not a democracy. At least it's not a democracy when there are more keep votes than delete votes. When there ARE more delete votes, it seems to be totally super democratic. The delete-prone editors need to be at least consistent with their arguments because the general outside observation is that those who have this vendetta against webcomics flip-flop their methods of determination.
This debate is such a big deal and this comic is so freaking notable that I think anybody notable in webcomics is watching this. This is not "fancruft", another term I see thrown around. I don't think even half the people here are real "fans". I mean, I like this comic, as probably a lot of people here do. But I think this AFD debate represents the last chance Wikipedia has for good faith regarding Webcomics, not just to save this article.
There are sources, editors. They're there. And they're reliable. It's all a matter of subjectivity at this point. Please don't be jerks about this. SS Slacker 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC) reply
Strong Keep, and nominate Wikipedia's FUBARed definition of "notability" for deletion. It's textbook non-notable! It's not verifiable, nobody's heard of it outside the small community of diehard Wiki-editors who invoke it at every opportunity to the consternation and mystification of everybody else. It's like jargon had sex with fancruft, and this is their baby: wikipedia "notability."
This sick, sad cycle of things being nominated for deletion based on lack of notability... and somebody sees it and then attempts to establish notability (which, in the real world, "having been noted by a large number of people" does establish), and then the mere fact that the rest of the world has a different (and more relevant) definition of notability than etymological abortion that wikipedia has adopted is used as an excuse to ignore actual attempts to provide verifiable "notability." The sickest part is, in the above debate, it looks (at a glance, anyway), as if the passage which mentions that "meatpuppetry" can't help but negate neutrality is being cited to excuse the fact that people are reacting vindictively to the "meatpuppetry". For the record: "meatpuppetry" is also mystifying jargon to people who aren't part of the die-hard wiki community, and it only makes the cycle worse when people who attempt to establish ACTUAL notability (not wikipedia's non-notable definition of notability), they're greeted with a word that can really only be taken as some sort of vague insult and words to the effect that their opinions don't matter.
What PURPOSE does it serve to say, about any topic, that "This doesn't look notable. Please show us that it is, or it'll be deleted."... and then acting surprised when you get flooded by people saying, "Uh, this is notable. I and many other people have noted it."... and then saying in response, "Sorry, you're just a meatpuppet. Doesn't count."? It's like this process is DESIGNED to create this kind of situation in order to create endorphins in the brains of the elitists who get off on the fact that they've spent so much time learning the jargon and policies and procedures of Wikipedia while the crude unwashed masses of "meatpuppets" haven't.
Jesus Dead Jew on a Stick Christ... Wikipedia at large should either come up with a word besides "notable" that means what is actually being asked for (or just drop the "notability" requirement and focus on verifiability, as after all, the requirement that things be "notable" just leads into the fact that such "notability" results in verifiable sources), or stop acting surprised when the public replies to questions of notability by showing that the subject actually is notable.
Wikipedia's quickly turning into every hilariously bad satire of an impenetrible bureaucracy whose rules have evolved completely out of touch with the public interest they're supposed to serve... Alexandra Erin 12:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC) reply