- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to King County Council with regard to all except Reams, Gaines, Barden, and Munro, who were kept. (non-admin closure) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 07:24, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
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- Tracy Owen ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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Non-notable county councillor; previous discussion has determined King County Council members are not presumed notable. No good redirect targets so I support deletion.
Also bundling a few similar articles together in this nomination for the same reason. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Bruce Laing ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Pat Thorpe ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Tom Forsythe (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- David Irons Jr. ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bill Reams ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)Bob Gaines (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)- Dave Mooney (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Paul Barden (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)Ed Munro ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)- John T. O'Brien (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Redirect all to King County Council.The focus for all of them should be about the council which seems to be the representation of the county from looking at county council. I think this is a strong mayor-council form of government. Looks like 4-5 counties in WA use this form. For comparison, it's no different for a county commissioner to be redirected to their respective county if they aren't notable. – The Grid ( talk) 22:45, 12 November 2021 (UTC)- Removing my vote as AfD has changed. – The Grid ( talk) 20:32, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep all Some of these people have been state legislators as well which makes them notable, such as
Paul Barden. Additionally, all current members of the King County Council have their own articles, some of which haven't held other offices over the municipal level. This gives reason for all of these articles being kept. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Thomascampbell123 (
talk •
contribs)
18:11, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Oops, I didn't mean to nominate the ones which had been state legislators (I guess I missed Barden because it only mentioned it in the infobox, not the article prose). If we do establish these are all notable, then Rod Dembowski should probably be restored. Elli ( talk | contribs) 23:18, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Bob Gaines, Ed Munro, and Bill Reams were also state legislators. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomascampbell123 ( talk • contribs) 18:51, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I've struck them from the nomination. Elli ( talk | contribs) 00:35, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep those who have been state legislators;
deleteredirect (to the list of past councillors that now exists in King County Council) all who have not. County council is not an "inherently" notable level of office that confers an automatic free pass over WP:NPOL — it is a level of office at which a person is notable only if either (a) they have also held a more notable office, such as the state legislature, at some other time in their careers, or (b) they can be demonstrated as considerably more notable than the norm for county councillors, by writing and referencing a really substantive article that demonstrates a reason why their career should be seen as having much more nationalized significance than most other county councillors. Just writing one line stating that the person exists or existed, referenced to one or two primary sources that verify said existence but fail to contexualize why their existence was important for an encyclopedia to maintain content about, doesn't cut it. And no, the fact that the current council have articles isn't a reason to confer instant free notability on all former councillors either — for one thing, at least two of the current council don't have their own standalone biographical articles, but actually exist solely as redirects to the article on the council itself, and for another, some of the others should only have redirects rather than standalone articles also. Bearcat ( talk) 18:49, 14 November 2021 (UTC) - Comment I am not placing a bolded position here, but at minimum, all of the subjects (who are not state legislators) should be redirected to
King County Council. A redirect is a usual and appropriate outcome when the subject holds a position on a notable legislative body. What I am going to look for is to see whether there is enough reliable sourced material that can provide information about what the subject accomplished in office (and not just a voting record or ribbon cuttings) and/or a substantive take on the subject's policy positions to see if the subject should be kept. --
Enos733 (
talk)
14:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Is it really appropriate to redirect to a page that doesn't mention the subject? I wouldn't oppose redirecting to a "List of King County Councillors", but we don't have that. A redirect wouldn't really provide any useful information on these subjects. Elli ( talk | contribs) 18:13, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- I tend to think so. I think the page could easily contain a list of all of the members (past and present) on the Council. -- Enos733 ( talk) 23:20, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- If somebody can actually find a comprehensive list of all the past county councillors that we could copy and add referencing to support, then by all means they can do that and then a redirect would make sense. However, I don't see the value in maintaining a redirect if the article doesn't contain such a list of past councillors. Bearcat ( talk) 16:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
[1] Here's a list of all former councillors.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Daniel (
talk)
00:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment The list of County Councilmembers is added to King County Council. -- Enos733 ( talk) 05:40, 20 November 2021 (UTC) Now supporting redirect for those councilmember who were not state legislators. -- Enos733 ( talk) 00:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to King County Council with regard to all except Reams, Gaines, Barden, and Munro, who were kept. (non-admin closure) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 07:24, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Tracy Owen ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable county councillor; previous discussion has determined King County Council members are not presumed notable. No good redirect targets so I support deletion.
Also bundling a few similar articles together in this nomination for the same reason. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Bruce Laing ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Pat Thorpe ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Tom Forsythe (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- David Irons Jr. ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bill Reams ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)Bob Gaines (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)- Dave Mooney (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Paul Barden (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)Ed Munro ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)- John T. O'Brien (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. Elli ( talk | contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Redirect all to King County Council.The focus for all of them should be about the council which seems to be the representation of the county from looking at county council. I think this is a strong mayor-council form of government. Looks like 4-5 counties in WA use this form. For comparison, it's no different for a county commissioner to be redirected to their respective county if they aren't notable. – The Grid ( talk) 22:45, 12 November 2021 (UTC)- Removing my vote as AfD has changed. – The Grid ( talk) 20:32, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep all Some of these people have been state legislators as well which makes them notable, such as
Paul Barden. Additionally, all current members of the King County Council have their own articles, some of which haven't held other offices over the municipal level. This gives reason for all of these articles being kept. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Thomascampbell123 (
talk •
contribs)
18:11, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Oops, I didn't mean to nominate the ones which had been state legislators (I guess I missed Barden because it only mentioned it in the infobox, not the article prose). If we do establish these are all notable, then Rod Dembowski should probably be restored. Elli ( talk | contribs) 23:18, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Bob Gaines, Ed Munro, and Bill Reams were also state legislators. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomascampbell123 ( talk • contribs) 18:51, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I've struck them from the nomination. Elli ( talk | contribs) 00:35, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep those who have been state legislators;
deleteredirect (to the list of past councillors that now exists in King County Council) all who have not. County council is not an "inherently" notable level of office that confers an automatic free pass over WP:NPOL — it is a level of office at which a person is notable only if either (a) they have also held a more notable office, such as the state legislature, at some other time in their careers, or (b) they can be demonstrated as considerably more notable than the norm for county councillors, by writing and referencing a really substantive article that demonstrates a reason why their career should be seen as having much more nationalized significance than most other county councillors. Just writing one line stating that the person exists or existed, referenced to one or two primary sources that verify said existence but fail to contexualize why their existence was important for an encyclopedia to maintain content about, doesn't cut it. And no, the fact that the current council have articles isn't a reason to confer instant free notability on all former councillors either — for one thing, at least two of the current council don't have their own standalone biographical articles, but actually exist solely as redirects to the article on the council itself, and for another, some of the others should only have redirects rather than standalone articles also. Bearcat ( talk) 18:49, 14 November 2021 (UTC) - Comment I am not placing a bolded position here, but at minimum, all of the subjects (who are not state legislators) should be redirected to
King County Council. A redirect is a usual and appropriate outcome when the subject holds a position on a notable legislative body. What I am going to look for is to see whether there is enough reliable sourced material that can provide information about what the subject accomplished in office (and not just a voting record or ribbon cuttings) and/or a substantive take on the subject's policy positions to see if the subject should be kept. --
Enos733 (
talk)
14:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Is it really appropriate to redirect to a page that doesn't mention the subject? I wouldn't oppose redirecting to a "List of King County Councillors", but we don't have that. A redirect wouldn't really provide any useful information on these subjects. Elli ( talk | contribs) 18:13, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- I tend to think so. I think the page could easily contain a list of all of the members (past and present) on the Council. -- Enos733 ( talk) 23:20, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- If somebody can actually find a comprehensive list of all the past county councillors that we could copy and add referencing to support, then by all means they can do that and then a redirect would make sense. However, I don't see the value in maintaining a redirect if the article doesn't contain such a list of past councillors. Bearcat ( talk) 16:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
[1] Here's a list of all former councillors.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Daniel (
talk)
00:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment The list of County Councilmembers is added to King County Council. -- Enos733 ( talk) 05:40, 20 November 2021 (UTC) Now supporting redirect for those councilmember who were not state legislators. -- Enos733 ( talk) 00:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.