- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Borderline case. The league does not match the criteria but GNG may be there. I am closing as no consensus. Tone 19:51, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Tommy Fells
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- Tommy Fells ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The player does not meet the notability guidelines laid out in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues. He did not make an appearance in a Football League match during his career and as such does not appear in Joyce's Football League Players' Records 1888 to 1939. Beatpoet ( talk) 22:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. SharʿabSalam▼ ( talk) 23:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. SharʿabSalam▼ ( talk) 23:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 03:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 03:04, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Umm, he clearly passes
WP:NFOOTBALL, the FA ran a split league system between the Northern and Southern leagues from 1888-89 to 1919, and he appeared for Brentford in the Southern league! Then in 1920 The Southern League then was adapted to the Third Div of the Football league. I wouldn't take Joyce's record as complete and I wouldn't use one source like you are doing. Also the fact that each club in the Southern League at that time had a pay players, even it was a small wage was a big strain on the clubs putting a fair few in financial trouble.
Govvy (
talk)
09:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn't take Joyce's record as complete and I wouldn't use one source like you are doing - Joyce's book certainly is complete, it's the definitive listing of all players who played in the Football League prior to WW2. When you say "I wouldn't use one source like you are doing", are you suggesting that a different source would say this player did play in the Football League? Because I can guarantee it won't --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:02, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- The statement that "the FA ran a split league system between the Northern and Southern leagues from 1888-89 to 1919" isn't accurate either. The Football League comprised clubs from the Midlands and north during that period (mostly - by 1913 five London clubs and one in Bristol were members) but it was never a deliberate "split league system". There has never been a consensus that players who played in the Southern League during this period pass NFOOTBALL --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Southern League tried to mirror the FA, don't know why I wrote they were run by the FA, also why are you trying to look up Southern League players in a book for the Football League which was mainly the Northern football clubs? I am just annoyed why you would stamp on the Souther League like that. Govvy ( talk) 10:17, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- The statement that "the FA ran a split league system between the Northern and Southern leagues from 1888-89 to 1919" isn't accurate either. The Football League comprised clubs from the Midlands and north during that period (mostly - by 1913 five London clubs and one in Bristol were members) but it was never a deliberate "split league system". There has never been a consensus that players who played in the Southern League during this period pass NFOOTBALL --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn't take Joyce's record as complete and I wouldn't use one source like you are doing - Joyce's book certainly is complete, it's the definitive listing of all players who played in the Football League prior to WW2. When you say "I wouldn't use one source like you are doing", are you suggesting that a different source would say this player did play in the Football League? Because I can guarantee it won't --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:02, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete None of the clubs were fully professional at the time he played for them so doesn't acquire notability via them.-- A bit iffy ( talk) 10:27, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - fails GNG and NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 10:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- It seems very strange to me that we would delete a perfectly fine stub just because a player played in the Southern League during the nineteen teens and not the Northern League.
SportingFlyer
T·
C
04:24, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Your comment could be taken to suggest that in the 1910s there were northern and southern leagues which were parallel and equal, like the two conferences in American football. This is 100% not the case. In the 1910s, the pre-eminent league in England was the Football League, which did consist mostly of northern and midlands clubs but did have some southern representation (as noted above, by 1913 there were five London clubs in it). Then there was the Southern League, which consisted of clubs in southern England and Wales. The standard of the Southern League was much lower (hence why when its top division was eventually absorbed into the Football League in 1920 it became the third division). The Southern League has never been considered to be a fully professional league which satisfies WP:NFOOTBALL. If you think this needs changing, you would need to raise it at the appropriate place....... -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 07:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- I really don't think anyone has done their homework here as Brentford operated as a fully pro club when Fells played for them. Brentford had a really hard time during this period and had to sell or release players. This was partly due to league rules as all Southern League clubs had to give a wage to each player on the books no matter how little. Clubs did find a loophole to the regulations as they could play players on apprentice contracts. Govvy ( talk) 10:40, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 13:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 13:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that these two leagues were of equal importance - the Southern league was clearly a second option for teams in the South, and in the midlands, and even
Bradford Park Avenue, as evidenced by the fact the Southern league had rules on when teams could be expelled. I'm simply noting that a player who was written about in the papers of the time and who ended up playing in the Southern league - remember this is the time when the Charity Shield was played between Football and Southern - would be deleted on what I think would be an odd technicality.
SportingFlyer
T·
C
20:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- Brentford was only in the first division of the Southern League for the 1912–13 Brentford F.C. season. The following season ( 1913–14 Brentford F.C. season) they had numerous amateurs. So it really comes down to his eight possibly fully-professional games during 1912-13. But isn't this a red herring? There's 4 contemporary media references = which is a lot more than I've found for some contemporary players who did play in the Football League. I've checked and improved one of the references in the article, which confirms he did indeed go to and play for Brentford during the 1912-13 season. Nfitz ( talk) 23:06, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that these two leagues were of equal importance - the Southern league was clearly a second option for teams in the South, and in the midlands, and even
Bradford Park Avenue, as evidenced by the fact the Southern league had rules on when teams could be expelled. I'm simply noting that a player who was written about in the papers of the time and who ended up playing in the Southern league - remember this is the time when the Charity Shield was played between Football and Southern - would be deleted on what I think would be an odd technicality.
SportingFlyer
T·
C
20:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Borderline case. The league does not match the criteria but GNG may be there. I am closing as no consensus. Tone 19:51, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Tommy Fells
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Tommy Fells ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The player does not meet the notability guidelines laid out in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues. He did not make an appearance in a Football League match during his career and as such does not appear in Joyce's Football League Players' Records 1888 to 1939. Beatpoet ( talk) 22:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. SharʿabSalam▼ ( talk) 23:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. SharʿabSalam▼ ( talk) 23:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 03:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 03:04, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Umm, he clearly passes
WP:NFOOTBALL, the FA ran a split league system between the Northern and Southern leagues from 1888-89 to 1919, and he appeared for Brentford in the Southern league! Then in 1920 The Southern League then was adapted to the Third Div of the Football league. I wouldn't take Joyce's record as complete and I wouldn't use one source like you are doing. Also the fact that each club in the Southern League at that time had a pay players, even it was a small wage was a big strain on the clubs putting a fair few in financial trouble.
Govvy (
talk)
09:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn't take Joyce's record as complete and I wouldn't use one source like you are doing - Joyce's book certainly is complete, it's the definitive listing of all players who played in the Football League prior to WW2. When you say "I wouldn't use one source like you are doing", are you suggesting that a different source would say this player did play in the Football League? Because I can guarantee it won't --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:02, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- The statement that "the FA ran a split league system between the Northern and Southern leagues from 1888-89 to 1919" isn't accurate either. The Football League comprised clubs from the Midlands and north during that period (mostly - by 1913 five London clubs and one in Bristol were members) but it was never a deliberate "split league system". There has never been a consensus that players who played in the Southern League during this period pass NFOOTBALL --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Southern League tried to mirror the FA, don't know why I wrote they were run by the FA, also why are you trying to look up Southern League players in a book for the Football League which was mainly the Northern football clubs? I am just annoyed why you would stamp on the Souther League like that. Govvy ( talk) 10:17, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- The statement that "the FA ran a split league system between the Northern and Southern leagues from 1888-89 to 1919" isn't accurate either. The Football League comprised clubs from the Midlands and north during that period (mostly - by 1913 five London clubs and one in Bristol were members) but it was never a deliberate "split league system". There has never been a consensus that players who played in the Southern League during this period pass NFOOTBALL --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn't take Joyce's record as complete and I wouldn't use one source like you are doing - Joyce's book certainly is complete, it's the definitive listing of all players who played in the Football League prior to WW2. When you say "I wouldn't use one source like you are doing", are you suggesting that a different source would say this player did play in the Football League? Because I can guarantee it won't --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
10:02, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete None of the clubs were fully professional at the time he played for them so doesn't acquire notability via them.-- A bit iffy ( talk) 10:27, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - fails GNG and NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 10:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- It seems very strange to me that we would delete a perfectly fine stub just because a player played in the Southern League during the nineteen teens and not the Northern League.
SportingFlyer
T·
C
04:24, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Your comment could be taken to suggest that in the 1910s there were northern and southern leagues which were parallel and equal, like the two conferences in American football. This is 100% not the case. In the 1910s, the pre-eminent league in England was the Football League, which did consist mostly of northern and midlands clubs but did have some southern representation (as noted above, by 1913 there were five London clubs in it). Then there was the Southern League, which consisted of clubs in southern England and Wales. The standard of the Southern League was much lower (hence why when its top division was eventually absorbed into the Football League in 1920 it became the third division). The Southern League has never been considered to be a fully professional league which satisfies WP:NFOOTBALL. If you think this needs changing, you would need to raise it at the appropriate place....... -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 07:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- I really don't think anyone has done their homework here as Brentford operated as a fully pro club when Fells played for them. Brentford had a really hard time during this period and had to sell or release players. This was partly due to league rules as all Southern League clubs had to give a wage to each player on the books no matter how little. Clubs did find a loophole to the regulations as they could play players on apprentice contracts. Govvy ( talk) 10:40, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 13:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 13:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that these two leagues were of equal importance - the Southern league was clearly a second option for teams in the South, and in the midlands, and even
Bradford Park Avenue, as evidenced by the fact the Southern league had rules on when teams could be expelled. I'm simply noting that a player who was written about in the papers of the time and who ended up playing in the Southern league - remember this is the time when the Charity Shield was played between Football and Southern - would be deleted on what I think would be an odd technicality.
SportingFlyer
T·
C
20:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- Brentford was only in the first division of the Southern League for the 1912–13 Brentford F.C. season. The following season ( 1913–14 Brentford F.C. season) they had numerous amateurs. So it really comes down to his eight possibly fully-professional games during 1912-13. But isn't this a red herring? There's 4 contemporary media references = which is a lot more than I've found for some contemporary players who did play in the Football League. I've checked and improved one of the references in the article, which confirms he did indeed go to and play for Brentford during the 1912-13 season. Nfitz ( talk) 23:06, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that these two leagues were of equal importance - the Southern league was clearly a second option for teams in the South, and in the midlands, and even
Bradford Park Avenue, as evidenced by the fact the Southern league had rules on when teams could be expelled. I'm simply noting that a player who was written about in the papers of the time and who ended up playing in the Southern league - remember this is the time when the Charity Shield was played between Football and Southern - would be deleted on what I think would be an odd technicality.
SportingFlyer
T·
C
20:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.