- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) GSS 💬 04:24, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
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- Tantamount Theater ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The basis of this article's notability isn't for the bulding, and there's insufficient sources available to satisfy WP:NCORP,which is the relevant guidelines since it is about the theatre as an organization rather than the structure in which it was located in. Graywalls ( talk) 07:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Theatre, Organizations, Companies, and California. Graywalls ( talk) 07:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Entertainment and History. Graywalls ( talk) 15:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The article could be improved, but it's not without merit or interest in the context of California history. -- Cl3phact0 ( talk) 10:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: I added six newspaper references from the Santa Barbara News-Press, San Francisco Examiner, The Californian and the Santa Cruz Sentinel, all from 1957-1961, about the opening of the theater and early productions. Examples: The Californian, San Francisco Examiner. Toughpigs ( talk) 13:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Hello @
Toughpigs:, so I reviewed all six sources and am not convinced they're a lot of shallow routine coverages like opening announcements occurring shortly, not unlike those that happen for the first Home Depot opening in town. Others are about plays. I am not finding significant, fully independent coverage
WP:ORGING in multiple sources with at least one being widely circulated
WP:AUD. These plays are taking place, the venue is opening, and such do not count as significant coverage. Significant coverage in newsletters and hyperlocal like Carmel Pine Cone don't satisfy WP:AUD. Lots of tiny coverages like opening announcements and advertisement of plays occurring at the venue is not an indication of notability itself. @
Cl3phact0:, in which sources is it covered in depths showing it is of interest in the context of California history?
Graywalls (
talk)
15:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- The
San Francisco Examiner piece is neither local or routine. San Francisco is more than 100 miles away from Carmel Valley, and the article specifically says that the theater is special:
- "Having heard reports of an extraordinary new playhouse in Carmel Valley where puppet productions were staged this summer, I decided to find it last Sunday afternoon. The Tantamount Theater is located on an enchanting hilltop where it stands against the horizon with striking elegance... There are 144 seats, a remarkable lighting system and a splendid curtain, painted by Martin, depicting a group of Moliere's 17th century actors. The puppeteers (with three assistants) have just finished an engagement of Midsummer Night's Dream which was preceded by Uncle Tom's Cabin and Le Bourgeous Gentilhomme."
- This is an independent major city newspaper, giving detailed and specific coverage of the theater's architecture and productions. It is not a "first Home Depot opening" type report or the routine announcement of a new play.
Toughpigs (
talk)
16:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- That's more of a commentary by a journalist and it's far from even being in-depth coverage, as required to meet ORGDEPTH. Graywalls ( talk) Graywalls ( talk) 16:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- The
San Francisco Examiner piece is neither local or routine. San Francisco is more than 100 miles away from Carmel Valley, and the article specifically says that the theater is special:
- Comment Hello @
Toughpigs:, so I reviewed all six sources and am not convinced they're a lot of shallow routine coverages like opening announcements occurring shortly, not unlike those that happen for the first Home Depot opening in town. Others are about plays. I am not finding significant, fully independent coverage
WP:ORGING in multiple sources with at least one being widely circulated
WP:AUD. These plays are taking place, the venue is opening, and such do not count as significant coverage. Significant coverage in newsletters and hyperlocal like Carmel Pine Cone don't satisfy WP:AUD. Lots of tiny coverages like opening announcements and advertisement of plays occurring at the venue is not an indication of notability itself. @
Cl3phact0:, in which sources is it covered in depths showing it is of interest in the context of California history?
Graywalls (
talk)
15:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Sourcing seems fine, interesting local history "thing". Could use a bit more info, but the guy travelling 100 miles to see the place and writing about it shows it was important at the time.
Oaktree b (
talk)
16:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- It was the largest "marionette theater in America" at the time [1] Oaktree b ( talk) 16:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - The theater is connected with poet and artist Jeanne D'Orge who helped in the theater's creation and productions. Secondary sources by Adam Miller and others prove WP:SIGCOV and WP:NBUILDING. The building is notable as a result of its historic, social, and architectural importance. Please view the article's history as important information has been deleted by editors nominating it for deletion. Greg Henderson ( talk) 16:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Comparing Stanley Eichelbaum's beautiful and informative writing about this theater with a routine announcement of a Home Depot opening is, well several words come to mind. I will go with ludicrous. Eichelbaum was a widely respected film and theater critic San Francisco for decades, and his critical assessments are quoted at least 20 times on Wikipedia. Carmel Valley is 130 miles from San Francisco so this is not local coverage and it is significant coverage. Added to all of the other coverage, I believe that notability is established.
Cullen328 (
talk)
23:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting. Perhaps we should have an article about Stanley Eichelbaum ( wikidata:Q124476277) too? Cl3phact0 ( talk) 14:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, after gutting vast swathes of material cited only to self-published sources and tagging for notability, I was initially convinced the article was headed for deletion. But I have since been proven wrong, thanks to the sources added to the article and this discussion, which show direct detailed independent reliable coverage. Left guide ( talk) 01:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) GSS 💬 04:24, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Tantamount Theater ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The basis of this article's notability isn't for the bulding, and there's insufficient sources available to satisfy WP:NCORP,which is the relevant guidelines since it is about the theatre as an organization rather than the structure in which it was located in. Graywalls ( talk) 07:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Theatre, Organizations, Companies, and California. Graywalls ( talk) 07:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Entertainment and History. Graywalls ( talk) 15:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The article could be improved, but it's not without merit or interest in the context of California history. -- Cl3phact0 ( talk) 10:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: I added six newspaper references from the Santa Barbara News-Press, San Francisco Examiner, The Californian and the Santa Cruz Sentinel, all from 1957-1961, about the opening of the theater and early productions. Examples: The Californian, San Francisco Examiner. Toughpigs ( talk) 13:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Hello @
Toughpigs:, so I reviewed all six sources and am not convinced they're a lot of shallow routine coverages like opening announcements occurring shortly, not unlike those that happen for the first Home Depot opening in town. Others are about plays. I am not finding significant, fully independent coverage
WP:ORGING in multiple sources with at least one being widely circulated
WP:AUD. These plays are taking place, the venue is opening, and such do not count as significant coverage. Significant coverage in newsletters and hyperlocal like Carmel Pine Cone don't satisfy WP:AUD. Lots of tiny coverages like opening announcements and advertisement of plays occurring at the venue is not an indication of notability itself. @
Cl3phact0:, in which sources is it covered in depths showing it is of interest in the context of California history?
Graywalls (
talk)
15:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- The
San Francisco Examiner piece is neither local or routine. San Francisco is more than 100 miles away from Carmel Valley, and the article specifically says that the theater is special:
- "Having heard reports of an extraordinary new playhouse in Carmel Valley where puppet productions were staged this summer, I decided to find it last Sunday afternoon. The Tantamount Theater is located on an enchanting hilltop where it stands against the horizon with striking elegance... There are 144 seats, a remarkable lighting system and a splendid curtain, painted by Martin, depicting a group of Moliere's 17th century actors. The puppeteers (with three assistants) have just finished an engagement of Midsummer Night's Dream which was preceded by Uncle Tom's Cabin and Le Bourgeous Gentilhomme."
- This is an independent major city newspaper, giving detailed and specific coverage of the theater's architecture and productions. It is not a "first Home Depot opening" type report or the routine announcement of a new play.
Toughpigs (
talk)
16:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- That's more of a commentary by a journalist and it's far from even being in-depth coverage, as required to meet ORGDEPTH. Graywalls ( talk) Graywalls ( talk) 16:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- The
San Francisco Examiner piece is neither local or routine. San Francisco is more than 100 miles away from Carmel Valley, and the article specifically says that the theater is special:
- Comment Hello @
Toughpigs:, so I reviewed all six sources and am not convinced they're a lot of shallow routine coverages like opening announcements occurring shortly, not unlike those that happen for the first Home Depot opening in town. Others are about plays. I am not finding significant, fully independent coverage
WP:ORGING in multiple sources with at least one being widely circulated
WP:AUD. These plays are taking place, the venue is opening, and such do not count as significant coverage. Significant coverage in newsletters and hyperlocal like Carmel Pine Cone don't satisfy WP:AUD. Lots of tiny coverages like opening announcements and advertisement of plays occurring at the venue is not an indication of notability itself. @
Cl3phact0:, in which sources is it covered in depths showing it is of interest in the context of California history?
Graywalls (
talk)
15:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Sourcing seems fine, interesting local history "thing". Could use a bit more info, but the guy travelling 100 miles to see the place and writing about it shows it was important at the time.
Oaktree b (
talk)
16:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- It was the largest "marionette theater in America" at the time [1] Oaktree b ( talk) 16:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - The theater is connected with poet and artist Jeanne D'Orge who helped in the theater's creation and productions. Secondary sources by Adam Miller and others prove WP:SIGCOV and WP:NBUILDING. The building is notable as a result of its historic, social, and architectural importance. Please view the article's history as important information has been deleted by editors nominating it for deletion. Greg Henderson ( talk) 16:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Comparing Stanley Eichelbaum's beautiful and informative writing about this theater with a routine announcement of a Home Depot opening is, well several words come to mind. I will go with ludicrous. Eichelbaum was a widely respected film and theater critic San Francisco for decades, and his critical assessments are quoted at least 20 times on Wikipedia. Carmel Valley is 130 miles from San Francisco so this is not local coverage and it is significant coverage. Added to all of the other coverage, I believe that notability is established.
Cullen328 (
talk)
23:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting. Perhaps we should have an article about Stanley Eichelbaum ( wikidata:Q124476277) too? Cl3phact0 ( talk) 14:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, after gutting vast swathes of material cited only to self-published sources and tagging for notability, I was initially convinced the article was headed for deletion. But I have since been proven wrong, thanks to the sources added to the article and this discussion, which show direct detailed independent reliable coverage. Left guide ( talk) 01:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.